[Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest


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or one flexible talent from spiritualism


I checked up on those examples. I didn't see anything in the Charlatan tradition, but the Esoteric Sage and Symbiat both require no armor and unencumbered.

I don't really have a problem with the unencumbered part; the Scholar does get to use Int for Carrying Capacity anyways.

The unarmored part sort of bothers me as the Scholar normally has light armor and many traditions allow for more armor. A few different things to mix and match then... (also, where is the best place to share this idea, the document?)

Armor Limits: None, Light (I think more is unwise)
Scaling Bonus: None, insight bonus similar to Canny Attacker
Stat Replacement: Just Str, Str and Dex in all instances, mix and match; lots of options with this one really. Not sure what I feel is the best option.
Total Int. Bonus: Cap to Scholar level, prevents powerful dipping for huge AC bonus.

Suggestions?


Wraithguard wrote:
I checked up on those examples. I didn't see anything in the Charlatan tradition...

The Charlatan tradition can gain rogue talents with secrets. There is a rogue talent in the Diviner's Handbook called Prescient Dodger.

Again, I personally would prefer if there was an Equipment talent (instead of 3+ classes gaining a class feature w/ get +X to AC). As to whether it was limited to unarmored or allows for light armor, I have the following thoughts:

If only works while unamored and unencumbered, the bonus should scale with level. The AC bonus should not be capped by HD.

If the talent works while unarmored or in light armor, and while unencumbered, the bonus should not scale. The bonus could probably be capped by HD.


Ah, I didn't see that. Thanks for that Grovestrider.

I think those sound like very reasonable options.

Now I just need to see if I can get my GM to go along with using a talent like that.


The more I look at the Berserking Sphere the more I don't like it... Fatigued is an awful penalty, especially for the 2-handed STR characters that would normally be drawn to this sphere.

I'd like to see the exertion mechanic replaced entirely, to be honest, and replaced with something else. I'd recommend rewarding the Berserker for getting hit; tanked AC compensated for with large amounts of DR and temp HP is already one of the Cool Things Barbarians do, expanding on that further than the Berserking Sphere already does could make it feel a lot more fun.

Dark Archive

Personally I don't see Fatigued (-2 STR/DEX) as a big deal - it's a very minor debuff to accuracy, damage, AC, and Reflex for a turn. Plus the sphere includes a method of bypassing the penalty and there are no restrictions on curing the effect either.

One interesting concept I have floating around is a talent that would let you use an Exertion for free against a creature that attacked/targeted you with a harmful action, perhaps limited to once per creature every 24 hours or something for balance. Then you could take the AC/Temporary HP trade and in exchange for getting hit more you had more flexibility with Exertions.

Liberty's Edge

LuniasM wrote:

Personally I don't see Fatigued (-2 STR/DEX) as a big deal - it's a very minor debuff to accuracy, damage, AC, and Reflex for a turn. Plus the sphere includes a method of bypassing the penalty and there are no restrictions on curing the effect either.

One interesting concept I have floating around is a talent that would let you use an Exertion for free against a creature that attacked/targeted you with a harmful action, perhaps limited to once per creature every 24 hours or something for balance. Then you could take the AC/Temporary HP trade and in exchange for getting hit more you had more flexibility with Exertions.

Can you clarify how this would differ from bloody counter?


LuniasM wrote:
Personally I don't see Fatigued (-2 STR/DEX) as a big deal - it's a very minor debuff to accuracy, damage, AC, and Reflex for a turn. Plus the sphere includes a method of bypassing the penalty and there are no restrictions on curing the effect either.

Any penalty to hit is pretty bad; just think of how amazing the +1 to hit from Inspire is. It can be a fairly significant penalty to damage for a STR user if it brings your ability modifier to an odd number, too.

The martial focus mechanic sucks pretty badly, though that's a known and agreed upon factor since it's getting changed. Maybe what they will do with it makes fatigue a desperation move you take when you really need an exertion, sort of like a kineticist nova'ing and blowing a bunch of burn.


I just wanted to say that regarding the new Troubador:

1st, I appreciate the increased number of available personas (although, I would still love to see an "innocent" persona based around children and how full of hope and aspirations, while also ignorant and naive as to the cruelty of the world. The innocent also builds or creates our views of life, safety, nurture, loyalty, and family. The innocent in it's ignorance gains a wanderlust, and eventually loses it's innocence to the cruelty of the world as it matures and learns these cold facts. While innocent however, they have wild imaginations, and elaborate dreams; All of this together can make for an entire persona and can be labeled as 'The Child', 'The Innocent', or 'The Virgin'.

2nd, While I will miss all the personalization of the new Troubadour, I appreciate that the class overload has been removed. I also realize that 'something' had to give in-order to resolve this issue.

In short, I am overall happy with how Spheres of Might is progressing with this class; While the old Troubador's power level was not over-the-top before, it was overloaded with class abilities (which made it time consuming to build even low-level characters).

Dark Archive

Arachnofiend wrote:
LuniasM wrote:
Personally I don't see Fatigued (-2 STR/DEX) as a big deal - it's a very minor debuff to accuracy, damage, AC, and Reflex for a turn. Plus the sphere includes a method of bypassing the penalty and there are no restrictions on curing the effect either.
Any penalty to hit is pretty bad; just think of how amazing the +1 to hit from Inspire is. It can be a fairly significant penalty to damage for a STR user if it brings your ability modifier to an odd number, too.

People take penalties all the time in exchange for other bonuses - Power Attack is widely regarded as the most necessary feat for dealing damage and its penalty scales up to -6 for some characters, and forgoing Rapid Shot on an archer is practically a cardinal sin if you're trying to fulfill your role even though you take a -2 attack penalty. Using the Berserker's Exertions carries a similar Risk/Reward tradeoff - for 1 turn after using it you take -1 attack, -1 or -2 damage, -1 AC, and -1 Reflex. In exchange, you can deal 2-3*BAB additional damage, penalize enemy attack/damage rolls, Stagger, etc. Imo that's a worthwhile trade, although I will certainly complain that Beat Down is a talent tax if you want to get any real value out of the debuff exertions.

Arachnofiend wrote:
The martial focus mechanic sucks pretty badly, though that's a known and agreed upon factor since it's getting changed. Maybe what they will do with it makes fatigue a desperation move you take when you really need an exertion, sort of like a kineticist nova'ing and blowing a bunch of burn.

I mean, I personally didn't agree that it was a bad mechanic, but that's just me I guess. It'll certainly be interesting to see what else they come up with.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

I wouldn't say there's necessarily any consensus that martial focus is a bad mechanic, just that currently it's much too swingy. The fact that you're losing your dedications and the ability to use your focus moves is really the hitch for us. You just lose too much each time you expend focus, and the taxes to address that stack up very quickly (you're looking at upwards of two feats and a talent if you want to effectively use multiple spheres). So that's really what we're looking at fixing; not necessarily removing focus, but alleviating the sharp dip that happens if you use focus. We'd rather have expending focus be something that boosts you up before returning you to your normal baseline than something that gives you one big spike before forcing you to spend 1 or more rounds operating below your normal performance levels. Basically, we want focus to be closer to spending a spell point than to getting one round of rage and then being fatigued.


Ssalarn wrote:
I wouldn't say there's necessarily any consensus that martial focus is a bad mechanic, just that currently it's much too swingy. The fact that you're losing your dedications and the ability to use your focus moves is really the hitch for us. You just lose too much each time you expend focus, and the taxes to address that stack up very quickly (you're looking at upwards of two feats and a talent if you want to effectively use multiple spheres). So that's really what we're looking at fixing; not necessarily removing focus, but alleviating the sharp dip that happens if you use focus. We'd rather have expending focus be something that boosts you up before returning you to your normal baseline than something that gives you one big spike before forcing you to spend 1 or more rounds operating below your normal performance levels. Basically, we want focus to be closer to spending a spell point than to getting one round of rage and then being fatigued.

Perhaps make it something like tension/grit/panache that is a pretty good system that is dynamic and fun but significantly different from mana that it plays different.

Here are some first thoughts:

You have an amount of martial focus equal to your constitution and/or your initiator modifier plus 1 per two talents you posses.

As long as you have any focus left you are considered to have martial focus.

Instead of expending focus all at once talents take up some amount or focus points. You can spend more focus than you have but at the end of your turn you have 0 focus and no longer have the martial focus benefits.

Each sphere could give you a new way to regain one martial focus point.

You can always take total defense to fill your focus to full.

something like that.


@Bardarok same idea mate but mine used quarter of level plus initator modifier which blocks one level dips to gain goodies approach but maybe fusion of your and my idea will be good like max


Well, so long as initiator modifier is being used, anyone with a decent mental stat could get a handful of points pretty quick.

I know it might seem a little radical, but what if you just went with a formula based on combat talents and levels in classes with the Combat Training class feature?


Is Tripping going to get its own Sphere? Because currently, every single combat maneuver EXCEPT trip has a sphere that is dedicated at least partially to it.

Beserker > Sunder
Brute > Bull Rush. Repositioning. Drag. Overrun.
Duelling > Disarm.
Fencing > Feint.
Scoundrel > Steal. Dirty Trick.
Wrestling > Grapple.

Also, I have to agree that the Martial Focus idea at the moment is significantly too swingy. I'm guessing that in order to become invested in a Sphere you'll have to invest several points in the new system?


Fury of the Tempest wrote:

Is Tripping going to get its own Sphere? Because currently, every single combat maneuver EXCEPT trip has a sphere that is dedicated at least partially to it.

Beserker > Sunder
Brute > Bull Rush. Repositioning. Drag. Overrun.
Duelling > Disarm.
Fencing > Feint.
Scoundrel > Steal. Dirty Trick.
Wrestling > Grapple.

Also, I have to agree that the Martial Focus idea at the moment is significantly too swingy. I'm guessing that in order to become invested in a Sphere you'll have to invest several points in the new system?

Open Hand isn't quite the same level of focus but it does have a ton of options that work with or incorporate trips.

I suspect part of this is because Trip is generally considered the easiest maneuver to build around normally and has more feat support than any of the others besides maybe grappling.

Silver Crusade

Fury of the Tempest wrote:

Is Tripping going to get its own Sphere? Because currently, every single combat maneuver EXCEPT trip has a sphere that is dedicated at least partially to it.

Beserker > Sunder
Brute > Bull Rush. Repositioning. Drag. Overrun.
Duelling > Disarm.
Fencing > Feint.
Scoundrel > Steal. Dirty Trick.
Wrestling > Grapple.

Also, I have to agree that the Martial Focus idea at the moment is significantly too swingy. I'm guessing that in order to become invested in a Sphere you'll have to invest several points in the new system?

Open Hand is effectively our trip sphere, although trip has kind of been sprinkled throughout everything due to how powerful it is. Also we're not abandoning martial focus, we are working to make it less particular though.


Wierd question pertaining to legendary talents.
Do the lightning lunge and yoga strike talents stack?
If so you could have a seriously insane reach with 2 talents. It would be quite easy to be able to punch someone further away then you could throw something at them.
If that works it reminds me very much of seven sided strike from the Diablo 3 monk.

Can you use lightning lunge and superb reach with cleave?

Steal charm. I feel it would be good if it worked like theft normally works. As in the thief gets what he stole. Maybe only 1/2 of$@&ing the penalty perhaps?


I have to disagree with the sentiment that Open Hand is effectively the Trip Sphere. Greater Trip doesn't feel fitting for Open Hand, and of two talents which would definitely fit in a tripping sphere, Sliding Charge and Sweeping Kicks are unarmed only, instead of being more generic/melee like the other Sphere's.

Though I do agree that trip is the most often used combat manoeuvre outside a dedicated sphere.


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I want to cross over something from Legendary Talents:

The Sword Shooter talent currently only works for bows. I feel like it should work for crossbows on the grounds of Rule of Cool.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:

I want to cross over something from Legendary Talents:

The Sword Shooter talent currently only works for bows. I feel like it should work for crossbows on the grounds of Rule of Cool.

I agree and will run that by the team.


Quick clarification. Close Combat Specialist says that I can treat my ranged attacks as melee attacks when performing an attack action against a target within twice my natural attack (or 10ft for most players). That means attack of opportunities don't count, right?

Although I can't actually see any time where that might become a problem...

Silver Crusade

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I'd say so, Fury. Also letting everyone know that the SoM playtest is getting a new update soon.

Adam Meyers wrote:

Some of you have already heard this, but we are planning a massive update to the playtest documents, to come online Monday or Tuesday. Among other things including some expanded content, the update will make two major changes to the rules:

First, the removal of dedications. They've actually become less important as the mechanics have evolved, and removing them opens up a bit more customization.
Second, the expansion of the battered condition. Currently the sole property of the berzerker sphere, battered condition inflicted by the berzerker sphere is seeing its usability expanded, and can now be inflicted by other spheres, and has become a much more potent martial tactic.
We're excited to see how these changes (among the other, smaller ones) will affect play. We'll announce them when they go live, but since Paizo Con is this weekend, we'll be waiting until that's over before posting changes.

If you'll be at Paizo Con this weekend, we'll be tending a booth and talking to whoever passes by, so come say hi.

Sadly I'm not at Paizocon now, but I will be at Gencon (hopefully), so if any of you are going to that, feel free to bother me.


I'll be sure to ask in this thread closer to Gen Con if any of you fine folks are attending. I'll be down there for one day, probably about 10 hours or so. Should have plenty of time to track some of you fine folks down.


I didn't have nearly enough free time to head to PaizoCon, so perhaps people can answer a few questions, in order of importance:

Is everyone recovering from PaizoCon well enough?

Everyone have a good time?

Anyone take some time to visit the booth?

Are the updated playtest documents coming out some time this week?

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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Wraithguard wrote:

I didn't have nearly enough free time to head to PaizoCon, so perhaps people can answer a few questions, in order of importance:

Is everyone recovering from PaizoCon well enough?

Everyone have a good time?

Anyone take some time to visit the booth?

Are the updated playtest documents coming out some time this week?

Playtest updates are being rolled out as we speak :)

I had a good time at PaizoCon, but I was only there for 1 day, primarily for the SoM playtest (which was a blast!). Adam seemed like he had a pretty solid time as well, though his string of bad luck with Paizo either forgetting about him, inadvertently mislabeling his events, or something similar has unfortunately continued :P

Last I checked both Adam and myself, the only members of the team present at PaizoCon, managed to escape healthy and con-crud free, so that's excellent.


Are links going to be re linkified?

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

We posted the updates into the previous documents, so original links should be viable (let me know if they're not). Changes are subtle but far-reaching, so it's likely that the docs are going to look very similar at a glance.

I'm addressing a few issues that got overlooked in the update process currently and watching feedback for any more that people notice, so feel free to just post anything you find here. I'll be checking in regularly and working throughout the day today so I'll try and have anything minor fixed ASAP, and anything major pushed to the design group so we can discuss how to handle it.


I saw someone say they would repost the links once the update had happened so was just curious


I can't say I'm a fan of using a Total Defense to get Focus back.

It got me thinking about the Path of War classes and what they do to recover maneuvers.

This made me remember the Warlord's Gambit line of stuff.

Then I thought, does each class or sphere have something useful they can attempt to regain focus?

I remember from the Armiger I built that they had an ability to quickly regain focus after a certain level, but what about everyone else, or maybe a method that could be done depending on the spheres you have?

EDIT: Well, never mind then. I believe you are right but it had been awhile since I gave it a good look.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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Wraithguard wrote:

I can't say I'm a fan of using a Total Defense to get Focus back.

It got me thinking about the Path of War classes and what they do to recover maneuvers.

This made me remember the Warlord's Gambit line of stuff.

Then I thought, does each class or sphere have something useful they can attempt to regain focus?

I remember from the Armiger I built that they had an ability to quickly regain focus after a certain level, but what about everyone else, or maybe a method that could be done depending on the spheres you have?

Every sphere has a unique recovery talent associated with it, and I believe most classes do as well. The Blacksmith and Scholar are the only classes I can't recall as having a unique in-class recovery method, which I will review and address now to make sure everyone has some unique method from both class and spheres.


I gave a few spheres a look; they looked good. Very fitting recovery methods.

I had a thought for the Scholar; using Medical Training class feature could restore focus. Seems useful, eats up a standard action that provokes, feels rather simple though.

EDIT:

Another Scholar note: Medical Training is a very powerful and useful class feature. It just feels a little wrong that with an ability tied to a skill that they don't receive ranks equal to their Scholar class level.

Of course it is a 8+ class focused heavily on Int. I'm probably just over thinking this.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Wraithguard wrote:

I gave a few spheres a look; they looked good. Very fitting recovery methods.

I had a thought for the Scholar; using Medical Training class feature could restore focus. Seems useful, eats up a standard action that provokes, feels rather simple though.

EDIT:

Another Scholar note: Medical Training is a very powerful and useful class feature. It just feels a little wrong that with an ability tied to a skill that they don't receive ranks equal to their Scholar class level.

Of course it is a 8+ class focused heavily on Int. I'm probably just over thinking this.

I ran a Scholar for our special backer game at PaizoCon to round out the party since they only had 3 players. My 8th level Scholar had... 120 skill ranks including the free ranks granted by Alchemy and Scout. If we were to give auto-scaling in Heal ranks as well, I'd probably have to drop them down to 6+Int skills per level, and I'd rather not unless it's something that a large enough number of backers feel is absolutely necessary. As it stands though, you kind of have to actively avoid putting ranks in Heal to not be able to support it within the classes current chassis.

I actually did consider tying uses of Medical Training to regaining focus, but that seemed like it had a few issues, particularly in that it encourages the Scholar to "waste" healing to regain focus, which can lead to them kind of self-sabotaging if the adventuring day runs longer than expected. At the moment I've added that they can regain focus as an immediate action whenever a target fails their saving throw against the Scholar's flashbangs (which received some additional upgrades as part of the update). It's not quite as reliable as Medical Training since the enemy succeeding at their saving throw creates a potential point of failure, but it's better proofed against accidentally wasting actions.


On Heal ranks: absolutely agree.

Focus: Tying it to flash bangs was the other idea I had. Seems like a good offensive option to tie it to.

Not sure how you feel about this, but tying it to failed saves introduces two instances of potential failure; a missed attack roll or a passed save. It could be tied to a successful attack roll, reducing it to a single point of failure.

It is fairly likely a Scholar will hit with the attack roll though as it is a touch attack and you can always pick up the Knack to run it off Int.

EDIT: Before I forget, the new knacks that were added with the update are amazing.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Wraithguard wrote:

On Heal ranks: absolutely agree.

Focus: Tying it to flash bangs was the other idea I had. Seems like a good offensive option to tie it to.

Not sure how you feel about this, but tying it to failed saves introduces two instances of potential failure; a missed attack roll or a passed save. It could be tied to a successful attack roll, reducing it to a single point of failure.

It is fairly likely a Scholar will hit with the attack roll though as it is a touch attack and you can always pick up the Knack to run it off Int.

EDIT: Before I forget, the new knacks that were added with the update are amazing.

I've taken the attack roll suggestion under advisement, as I don't think it's a bad idea but as you note, it's relatively unlikely for the scholar to miss the ranged touch attack.

Thanks for the feedback on the knacks! Scholar is one of my classes and I've spent a lot more time fine-tuning than innovating with her since we rolled out the big open playtest, so it was nice to have enough time on the schedule to round out some of the knacks I've wanted to add in there but didn't have time for. Lightning Rod and Improved Lightning Rod were actually inspired by my love of the anime One Piece and my desire to sneak in builds for as many members of the One Piece crew as I could (I think between SoP and SoM we've got Luffy, Nami, Zoro, Franky, Brook, and Robin covered, and it's not much of a stretch to put together a suitable Chopper build). I think Scholar is really hitting a pretty good place balance-wise, which I'm happy about.

Also, I see the links in this thread are a bit out of date and don't include all the playtest docs, have you gotten to see the new Sage and Troubadour classes that will be featured in the companion book, "Champions of the Spheres" (formerly known as "the gish book")? They use both Spheres of Might and Spheres of Power and are pretty cool, if I do say so myself. I'm going to go try and dig up the full list of links so I can get them reposted.

Also, Robert Jordan, Greater Barrage was removed and inadvertently left in the prerequisite lines for the Legendary talents. I've removed the references I found, but let me know if you see any more out there that I didn't catch.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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Here's those complete playtest links-


Spheres of Might Open Playtest

Sphere 1
Sphere 2
Sphere 3
Class 1
Class 2
CotS classes
Legendary Talents
Additional Rules
Archetypes


I'll be sure to look through the Sage and Troubadour. The first time I looked through the Troubadour, I'm pretty sure I went cross-eyed trying to comprehend all of their potential abilities.

Thanks for communicating so well about this project. I love the potential for this project and I love the Scholar in particular. Keep up the good work!

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Wraithguard wrote:

I'll be sure to look through the Sage and Troubadour. The first time I looked through the Troubadour, I'm pretty sure I went cross-eyed trying to comprehend all of their potential abilities.

Thanks for communicating so well about this project. I love the potential for this project and I love the Scholar in particular. Keep up the good work!

Thank you! We're definitely trying to keep everyone up to date and make sure everyone knows their feedback is being heard.

I'm given to understand that Adam reworked the Troubadour leading into the update to make it simpler and easier to work with, though a few people did mention missing the previous complexity and capability.


Ssalarn wrote:
Lightning Rod and Improved Lightning Rod were actually inspired by my love of the anime One Piece and my desire to sneak in builds for as many members of the One Piece crew as I could

That's right, that lovely staff Nami uses. I picked up on just about everything else for them as well. Very cool stuff to include.

Ssalarn wrote:
I'm given to understand that Adam reworked the Troubadour leading into the update to make it simpler and easier to work with, though a few people did mention missing the previous complexity and capability.

I'm sure if I gave it another go I wouldn't have had much of an issue. I think the biggest issue is that I didn't have an idea of a character that I wanted to create with it. The Sage on the other hand; I wanted to try and recreate Hinata and Neiji's fighting style, so putting everything together came quickly.

On a completely unrelated note: How is the removal of Dedicate stuff going?


Completed looking through the Sage. Still looks awesome.

Did some more esoteries get added in or is it just my mind thinking that?

Time to start reading the Troubadour, some of the criticisms are... harsh. Well, at least they have strong feelings about it and relate it politely for the most part.

EDIT: Alright, finished reading the Troubadour. Makes perfect sense to me. Doesn't seem too loaded on abilities and gives you plenty of ways to differentiate your character.

My favorite Persona is probably the Fool. My dice can hate me some days and rolling lots of 1-4s is not unheard of. *grins widely* My only question is if I double fumble a roll can I get four dice the next time... obviously fate had conspired against me. :)

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Wraithguard wrote:

[...] The Sage on the other hand; I wanted to try and recreate Hinata and Neiji's fighting style, so putting everything together came quickly.

My first playtest Sage was actually based on Tsunade, lots of Enhancer abilities and a few style talents spent on Life sphere :)

I was hoping to get to run her some more at the playtest backer game at PaizoCon, but the backers preferred having a Scholar to round out the party, and it was their game.

Quote:


On a completely unrelated note: How is the removal of Dedicate stuff going?

I believe we've completed the roll-out for removing dedications and updating the mechanics, but I discovered earlier this afternoon that we'd missed adding the Legendary updates. I've taken care of that now, but it's possible I missed an update somewhere. I hope that's not the case, but it's a pretty big book with a lot of material, and it needed to be carried over to the playtest docs piece by piece to preserve the integrity of our existing links and bookmarks.


Noticed one thing looking through the Tropes. Some of them 'look' a little anemic on quirks.

I then noticed that they had very open ended options for extra combat talents or magic talents. They were missing a bit of text allowing them to be selected multiple times though.

Is this intentional or an oversight?

Ssalarn wrote:
My first playtest Sage was actually based on Tsunade, lots of Enhancer abilities and a few style talents spent on Life sphere :)

Very cool.


Oversight; I'll fix that tonight.


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Took another look at all the Troubadour's abilities. As it is now it is an impressive class with tons of versatility.

The Mentor provides a nice caster level bonus to keep up with mid casters and being able to purchase more Magic Talents as quirks makes it incredibly flexible. I don't think I'd ever use a low or mid caster as a 'save or suck' caster; but for buffs, heals, and some area denial, absolutely.

Heros get full BAB so they can always keep up with the attack roll bonuses without needing to invest a ton into extra stuff.

Cunning Servants and Lovers each capture particular aspects of popular classes and make them powerful class features. Great.

Fools are particularly entertaining to read; being rewarded for the dice gods hating you.

The Villain is interesting as it borrows some stuff that you normally see with particularly heinous archetypes or the Antipaladin. Nice way to borrow those tools and make them available to a normal character. Nice job.

I love the tropes but the thing I think is perhaps the most powerful feature of the whole class is this...

CotS Playtest Document wrote:
It is possible for a troubadour to permanently change one of his personas into a completely different persona, but doing so requires 5 days of work.

Snipped to a more easily displayed size.

So, after making a bad decision or two, with a little bit of downtime a player could completely overhaul one of their personas and tweek it into something better for them and the party.

That amount of wiggle room in a class is something I love to see.

In a closer reading I noticed this line of text.

CotS Playtest Document wrote:
A troubadour gains an additional persona for every 5 troubadour levels he possesses, and gains these personas instantly when he gains the appropriate level, as it is assumed he has been working on these new personalities in his spare time during his adventures.

Could we get this progression added into the Table:Troubadour? Something like 'personas (3)' at level 5 and so on.

Seems like some people might miss it in a quick skim.


@whraith can i thing its there but more personas always good


khadgar567 wrote:
can i thing its there but more personas always good

Normally I'm good at piecing together sentences that have been possibly butchered by auto-correct but I seem to be failing that today. Is it "Anything I can think of is there..."?

If it is, same here. Any popular trope I can think of can be represented by the available tropes, or a combination of them.

The class is very flexible and very powerful, and is probably tied for second place with the Sage as my most anticipated class of this project.


Here I went and had an idea about the Dedicate mechanic but it is gone now. Oh well.

Spoiler-ed for irrelevance.

Dedicate Idea:

Simply: When you expend your martial focus, you keep the benefits of the dedication that the martial focus was dedicated to. This dedication cannot be changed until you regain your focus, at which point this benefit is lost and you gain the dedicate for the new sphere your martial focus is dedicated to.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Wraithguard wrote:

Here I went and had an idea about the Dedicate mechanic but it is gone now. Oh well.

Spoiler-ed for irrelevance.
** spoiler omitted **

Yeah, dedicates went the way of the dodo. They were proving to do more harm than good, both from a design perspective and a play perspective, so they were axed, most of the accompanying base spheres were simplified to be in more in-line with their one feat/talent cost, and a lot of spheres were opened up so that they worked better when mixed with other spheres.

Wraithguard wrote:
khadgar567 wrote:
can i thing its there but more personas always good

Normally I'm good at piecing together sentences that have been possibly butchered by auto-correct but I seem to be failing that today. Is it "Anything I can think of is there..."?

If it is, same here. Any popular trope I can think of can be represented by the available tropes, or a combination of them.

The class is very flexible and very powerful, and is probably tied for second place with the Sage as my most anticipated class of this project.

Sage and Troubadour definitely benefit from being able to access both SoM and SoP talents pretty freely, as well as having particularly awesome ability sets. We also went a bit more "anime" with them than we did with the SoM base classes, since the SoM base classes had something of a directive that they needed to be compatible with all types of campaigns from gritty Dark Sun or Conan-esque adventures to modern high fantasy. Technically Sage and Troubadour can fit into those gritty, 15 point buy, "What the heck's a magic shop?" adventures, but they're going to start feeling out of place pretty fast if the rest of the party consists of a Barbarian, a Cavalier with a camel mount, and a mumbly old healer Witch.


So since we've seen how starfinder attacks work, it looks like SoM is actually pretty close to that system, which is pretty cool. Makes me wonder if someone working on it had some starfinder inside info. Any thoughts on starfinder compatibility for SoM?


Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I've been super-busy, so I haven't really had a chance to look at stuff as much as I'd like, but one thing I was pondering recently is if there's anything to make it easier for smaller creatures to perform combat maneuvers?

Specifically, I'm thinking of the trope of both normal-sized creatures managing to manipulate giants by tricking them by running around and with them winding up on their back, or tiny faeries tripping up people with their capes or tossing things in their face, etc. Just a straight bonus to CMB seems a bit lame, but something like a feint check or some other use of the Bluff skill to lower CMD, perhaps even negating some or all of their Strength bonus to CMD due to using their own movements against them might be a possibility? Perhaps requiring sharing the enemy's square (and thus being sufficiently smaller than they are to allow such a thing)? Mostly thinking dirty tricks, trips, maybe disarm, reposition, and steal...

Just a random thought off the top of my head I thought I'd toss out there, I just like the idea of smaller characters having good ways to use trickery to humble larger ones in general, but the way CMB/CMD scales with size makes that a bit difficult (not to mention being sometimes impossible with enough size difference), and while I agree it should generally be harder, some sort of option that's not as straight-forward but allows smaller characters to use their size to their advantage sounds fun, even if it requires a certain level of investment.

Of course, it's entirely possible this already exists and I just completely missed it, life has been eating me alive lately...

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