[Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest


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Liberty's Edge

Symbiat has one tentatively written. Have ideas for others.


Am I misinterpreting something with how Impale works? The way the ability reads it seems that when you Impale someone they are also considered grappled, with all of the penalties that implies stacked on top of being impaled. If you stack shaken on top of that (as can easily be done with the Terrifying Pierce talent) you're getting an insanely strong debuff off of a single action. My 5th level character would confer -7 Dexterity, -6 attack rolls, -2 CMB, -2 Fort/Will, -4 Reflex, and 2 bleed damage on the poor sap she just impaled. Oh, and she's taking the best of two attack rolls thanks to Coward's Bane from the Gladiator sphere.

It seems to me that the way the ability should work is that you only get the penalties listed with being Impaled, and the impaled creature is only considered grappled for the purposes of being immobile and having to make checks to cast spells. If this is correct then rewriting the ability for clarification would be much appreciated.


Ssalarn wrote:
Grovestrider wrote:
I know that none of the Spheres of Might gish archetypes for the Spheres of Power classes are complete, but I was wondering if there is a list of Spheres of Power classes that WILL for sure gain a SoM archetype.
The plan is to try and hit everything except the Incanter and maybe the Fey Adept. Though I've been playing with a few ideas for the Fey Adept, so even that may end up with an archetype.

This makes me very giddy and excited.

On a related note any ideas for what spheres of might classes will get gish archetypes?

Liberty's Edge

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Probably most or all of them.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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jedi8187 wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Grovestrider wrote:
I know that none of the Spheres of Might gish archetypes for the Spheres of Power classes are complete, but I was wondering if there is a list of Spheres of Power classes that WILL for sure gain a SoM archetype.
The plan is to try and hit everything except the Incanter and maybe the Fey Adept. Though I've been playing with a few ideas for the Fey Adept, so even that may end up with an archetype.

This makes me very giddy and excited.

On a related note any ideas for what spheres of might classes will get gish archetypes?

As Stack notes, pretty much all of them. Maybe not conscript? But there's already some level of progress for pretty much every other class; Blacksmiths whose bodies are elemental forges, Armigers who can Warp from attack to attack, Scholars who can Create almost anything they can imagine, Commanders who can use War totems to enhance and extend their tactics and shouts, etc.


Ssalarn wrote:
jedi8187 wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Grovestrider wrote:
I know that none of the Spheres of Might gish archetypes for the Spheres of Power classes are complete, but I was wondering if there is a list of Spheres of Power classes that WILL for sure gain a SoM archetype.
The plan is to try and hit everything except the Incanter and maybe the Fey Adept. Though I've been playing with a few ideas for the Fey Adept, so even that may end up with an archetype.

This makes me very giddy and excited.

On a related note any ideas for what spheres of might classes will get gish archetypes?

As Stack notes, pretty much all of them. Maybe not conscript? But there's already some level of progress for pretty much every other class; Blacksmiths whose bodies are elemental forges, Armigers who can Warp from attack to attack, Scholars who can Create almost anything they can imagine, Commanders who can use War totems to enhance and extend their tactics and shouts, etc.

All of those sound amazing.


Any ideas for a pseudo Timeless Body as a legendary talent (possibly for Open Hand)? You might put together some extra benefits (like immunity to poison and disease) that makes it not completely overlap with stuff that the current Sage and the usual Monk gets. The prereqs should be handled by HD, though; that way, low BAB yet experienced characters can benefit from it too (if to prevent full casters from nabbing it you could also add BAB as a secondary prereq).

I really want to play wuxia masters living up to 3+ centuries while as robust as the younger generations, especially on world where "all martial arts are kung-fu-esque", using only one book.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Thanks Ssalarn. The Dead Shot deed always screamed Sniper at me, but sniping just doesn't work with it at all. I do really like the Vital Strike approach I think it gives a really good place to use a feat tree that many have mixed feelings about. This project is super exciting.


I'm reading through the Technician Inventions, and it strikes me that one of DDS's future products might need to be Spheres of Tech! :D


So, first question... what might you expect from a Spheres of Tech that couldn't be done simply by flavoring Power and/or Might as some form of technology? Basically, take away all flavor and dressing - what are the mechanical differences you're hoping for?


Rednal wrote:
So, first question... what might you expect from a Spheres of Tech that couldn't be done simply by flavoring Power and/or Might as some form of technology? Basically, take away all flavor and dressing - what are the mechanical differences you're hoping for?

I have very little idea other than "give me what the technician's got, only expanded to all gear".

I suppose the most important part might be that it's a slot-based system: you have a base, then you get to pick X number of other things. No having to do math on gp amounts.


Actually let me expand on the idea:

Imagine you want to make your own weapon. For some people that's easy. But for someone like me it's almost impossible because there isn't a system in place. But like Spheres of Power lets you, essentially, build your own magic effects using a base and then add-ons, Spheres of Tech would start you off with a base ("two-handed weapons") then let you add components ("extra damage", "reach", "trip bonus") and then give you a "rating" of the piece.

And it would be slot-based because gp-based requires too much math.


SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:

Actually let me expand on the idea:

Imagine you want to make your own weapon. For some people that's easy. But for someone like me it's almost impossible because there isn't a system in place. But like Spheres of Power lets you, essentially, build your own magic effects using a base and then add-ons, Spheres of Tech would start you off with a base ("two-handed weapons") then let you add components ("extra damage", "reach", "trip bonus") and then give you a "rating" of the piece.

And it would be slot-based because gp-based requires too much math.

I would prefer as here is x amount of classes that works on both medival fantasy and modern sci-fi like lets say some sort of enginier withoption to pull modern fantasy based trick and geniue technomancer that not looks like differnt flavored wizard( like talking to machines and other thype of wack things)


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So... this, for more gear?

I'm actually not sure what pieces of gear would really need such expansions, though, since weapons are far and away the most complicated in their base forms.


Rednal wrote:
So... this, for more gear?

Yes, assuming just glancing at it can give me an impression of the whole thing.

Rednal wrote:
I'm actually not sure what pieces of gear would really need such expansions, though, since weapons are far and away the most complicated in their base forms.

Then maybe only weapons need it. I don't know: I'm just going by all the options listed under Inventions for the technician and assuming there's stuff to add.


How about a Legendary Scoundrel talent that lets you teleport by stealing the intervening space?

Might be too much, but a friend of mine came up with it a long time ago and I always thought it was a kind of interesting justification.


SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:

How about a Legendary Scoundrel talent that lets you teleport by stealing the intervening space?

Might be too much, but a friend of mine came up with it a long time ago and I always thought it was a kind of interesting justification.

That sounds like a Homestuck thing. While it's a cool idea, it may be too magical even for a legendary talent. but maybe they disagree


jedi8187 wrote:
While it's a cool idea, it may be too magical even for a legendary talent. but maybe they disagree

Considering they have "sunder open the fabric of space to make a travel portal", among other super-talents, I'm not worried about it being too magical.

I'm worried about it being too "off" thematically.

Dark Archive

jedi8187 wrote:
That sounds like a Homestuck thing.

There exists no single sentence which would make me want something more than the one you just said.

Silver Crusade

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LuniasM wrote:
jedi8187 wrote:
That sounds like a Homestuck thing.
There exists no single sentence which would make me want something more than the one you just said.

Yes, being a homestuck thing is obviously something I wouldn't write...obviously...just ignore my Barbarian guide...or the sample character from KOP 3...or tons of other nods I make to the series...just wouldn't be something I wrote...


I'm also noticing someone on the development team is a One Piece fan, and I approve. Nice to see that with Lancer, Athletics, and GM discretion on my side, it's now possible to play a final fantasy style dragoon, particularly if you use a conscript to grab favored Enemy: Dragons.

Just had one or two extra thoughts to put here:

-Any of the spheres going to get a talent for "ranged melee" with sword beams or a blade of air style thing? Dueling's got its Vacuum Slice but that's more of a late game AoE attack than what I'm thinking of.

-I'm wondering if Dueling's Defensive Slice might be a little overtuned right now. I'd originally approved and thought no more about it when I was reading it as Cut from the Air, which I agree should not be a fighter-exclusive weapon trick, but looking at some of the comments today it looks like it also incorporates Smash From The Air, which is really strong for one talent. Rays @%*#ing over armored combatants is an element of combat I'm not fond of, but I am concerned that in a game that uses both Spheres Systems a Defensive Slice user hard-counters the basic attack form of the Death and Destruction spheres, forcing them to use shapes. It might be more fair if Defensive Slice can be taken twice, once to attain Cut from The Air and a second time to gain Smash from the Air, which balances things against the snipers, destruction experts, and ghost strike specialists that must spend an extra talent somewhere to get around the upgraded Defensive Slice.

-I feel like Reposition is the least-supported combat maneuver at the moment, so maybe adding something to it in the Brute Sphere might be nice. I was thinking a talent for swinging an enemy unexpectedly into position near one of its allies, who must make a will save or make an attack of opportunity against the repositioned enemy.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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Blackwaltzomega wrote:
I'm also noticing someone on the development team is a One Piece fan, and I approve.

I think that might be both Ehn and myself. I put a lot of One Piece inspired talents into the Legendary section.

Quote:

Nice to see that with Lancer, Athletics, and GM discretion on my side, it's now possible to play a final fantasy style dragoon, particularly if you use a conscript to grab favored Enemy: Dragons.

Just had one or two extra thoughts to put here:

-Any of the spheres going to get a talent for "ranged melee" with sword beams or a blade of air style thing? Dueling's got its Vacuum Slice but that's more of a late game AoE attack than what I'm thinking of.

Possibly/probably? We're trying to keep everything on an even keel and avoid situations where you're e.g. using Sniper's deadly shot to fire off Vital Strike bastard sword blasts during the early game, so we've got to be really careful about what we introduce and how we introduce it, but we're obviously big fans of giving martial characters some wicked cool options to play with, and ranged sword slashes fall into that category.

Quote:


-I'm wondering if Dueling's Defensive Slice might be a little overtuned right now. I'd originally approved and thought no more about it when I was reading it as Cut from the Air, which I agree should not be a fighter-exclusive weapon trick, but looking at some of the comments today it looks like it also incorporates Smash From The Air, which is really strong for one talent. Rays @%*#ing over armored combatants is an element of combat I'm not fond of, but I am concerned that in a game that uses both Spheres Systems a Defensive Slice user hard-counters the basic attack form of the Death and Destruction spheres, forcing them to use shapes. It might be more fair if Defensive Slice can be taken twice, once to attain Cut from The Air and a second time to gain Smash from the Air, which balances things against the snipers, destruction experts, and ghost strike specialists that must spend an extra talent somewhere to get around the upgraded Defensive Slice.

This has been talked about quite a bit, and I think we may be following your suggestion of dividing the ability in to so you can take it twice for the total effect. Obviously it's a sweet martial goodie and we don't want to take it away, but it is a pretty sweet, maybe too sweet, deal for the cost.

Quote:


-I feel like Reposition is the least-supported combat maneuver at the moment, so maybe adding something to it in the Brute Sphere might be nice. I was thinking a talent for swinging an enemy unexpectedly into position near one of its allies, who must make a will save or make an attack of opportunity against the repositioned enemy.

Reposition is wonky. Like, it's literally something you can emulate with just one of the several grapple options available, and grapple does a lot more than just move someone. That being said, your suggestion is solid and I'll kick it by the team.


SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:
jedi8187 wrote:
While it's a cool idea, it may be too magical even for a legendary talent. but maybe they disagree

Considering they have "sunder open the fabric of space to make a travel portal", among other super-talents, I'm not worried about it being too magical.

I'm worried about it being too "off" thematically.

Fair, I haven't looked at legendary talents too much yet, or at all really. They are something that I will use on a case by case basis depending on the setting.

On another note: I didn't mean "Homestuck thing" to be bad, just to clarify. Just that it reminded me of the stealing something's nothingness to create it.

Liberty's Edge

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Reposition does let you reposition them into the ground for convenient hammer damage, pick them up and drop them (or hammer them into the ceiling) and move them into nasty locations (with a talent) that you may not be positioned to brush them into. Just noting things you can do with it. More versatile than drag is by default.


On the Decapitate Berserking talent: How does it interact with Vital Strike, when you can use it as an attack action against a battered opponent?


jedi8187 wrote:
Fair, I haven't looked at legendary talents too much yet, or at all really. They are something that I will use on a case by case basis depending on the setting.

That's what I really love about the way Drop Dead Studios does things: they've made it a point both here and in Spheres of Power to separate out things that might be "too much" so that they're easy for those who don't want them to identify them in one go and not have to hunt around and create lists.

Liberty's Edge

Whiskey and a Bonesaw wrote:
On the Decapitate Berserking talent: How does it interact with Vital Strike, when you can use it as an attack action against a battered opponent?

We have made some adjustments to address concerns on that sphere and decapitate is seeing some changes.

Dark Archive

N. Jolly wrote:
LuniasM wrote:
jedi8187 wrote:
That sounds like a Homestuck thing.
There exists no single sentence which would make me want something more than the one you just said.
Yes, being a homestuck thing is obviously something I wouldn't write...obviously...just ignore my Barbarian guide...or the sample character from KOP 3...or tons of other nods I make to the series...just wouldn't be something I wrote...

I forgot all about that barbarian guide! Might have to go reread it (and warn my friend who says he's "going to read it eventually").


Is there going to be a Legendary Talent for slicing giant stuff in half? Especially as they're being thrown/shot at a character? Or is that just covered under existing sunder rules + one of the Parry talents?


Having fun putting my Armiger together for the Commander level pledge. Gotta love the Martial Traditions enabling you to make some truly different starting characters.

I didn't see it in the message, but is there some specifics you wanted for the characters?

I have mine at:

Level 7 (seems like a good level to make it at, between low and mid levels of gameplay, useful for both)

20 Point Buy (seems fairly standard)

Equipment follows WBL table (obviously)


Wraithguard wrote:

Having fun putting my Armiger together for the Commander level pledge. Gotta love the Martial Traditions enabling you to make some truly different starting characters.

I didn't see it in the message, but is there some specifics you wanted for the characters?

I have mine at:

Level 7 (seems like a good level to make it at, between low and mid levels of gameplay, useful for both)

20 Point Buy (seems fairly standard)

Equipment follows WBL table (obviously)

I also a Commander level pledge, was unsure of the specifics of character creation.

The character I wrote up was an 8th level Sage, so I made sure to make the best of Spheres of Power so to complement the Gish aspect of the character.


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Gotta confess something else I love about this. I haven't calculated my skill points, but I already have 5 skills that will keep topped out due to the Spheres I chose.

Not only can the Armiger deal damage from anywhere on the board with the ability to swap weapons real fast, but I can jump climb and swim like a pro and create salves to heal anyone in the party.

You chaps have already earned enough of my money, but if this turns into a situation where you make expansion handbooks like the SoP, rest assured you have another wallet ready to feed you.


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Wraithguard wrote:

Gotta confess something else I love about this. I haven't calculated my skill points, but I already have 5 skills that will keep topped out due to the Spheres I chose.

Not only can the Armiger deal damage from anywhere on the board with the ability to swap weapons real fast, but I can jump climb and swim like a pro and create salves to heal anyone in the party.

You chaps have already earned enough of my money, but if this turns into a situation where you make expansion handbooks like the SoP, rest assured you have another wallet ready to feed you.

agreeed mate when(not if) expansions are come you got a one more buyer


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Make it 3, cause I love those splat books.


I might be rebuilding my Vigilante soon. (The campaign is not working out for it too well; wonderful class but the campaign isn't working for it.)

I was looking at the Scholar to keep the same sorts of abilities but provide some more support backup the group sorely needs.

The question I have is this, despite having simple weapons and light armor proficiency and one additional weapon, would the Scholar be eligible to take a Martial tradition?

If I understand it properly, yes I would, losing the Iron Brush proficiency, but this seems like a very small lose for a potentially awesome gain.

EDIT: Reading the Martial Tradition section more carefully it doesn't even seem to mind if you have any traditions to trade away.

Playtest Doc. wrote:
Martial traditions are specialized training skill sets that grant a character a specific packet of capabilities. Some classes gain a martial tradition as a bonus class feature, but characters who do not gain the martial tradition class feature may choose to trade their starting proficiencies (other than simple weapons, light armor, and bucklers, if applicable) for a martial tradition at 1st level.

I guess there isn't any real problem then. Sounds good to me.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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Wraithguard wrote:

I might be rebuilding my Vigilante soon. (The campaign is not working out for it too well; wonderful class but the campaign isn't working for it.)

I was looking at the Scholar to keep the same sorts of abilities but provide some more support backup the group sorely needs.

The question I have is this, despite having simple weapons and light armor proficiency and one additional weapon, would the Scholar be eligible to take a Martial tradition?

If I understand it properly, yes I would, losing the Iron Brush proficiency, but this seems like a very small lose for a potentially awesome gain.

EDIT: Reading the Martial Tradition section more carefully it doesn't even seem to mind if you have any traditions to trade away.

Playtest Doc. wrote:
Martial traditions are specialized training skill sets that grant a character a specific packet of capabilities. Some classes gain a martial tradition as a bonus class feature, but characters who do not gain the martial tradition class feature may choose to trade their starting proficiencies (other than simple weapons, light armor, and bucklers, if applicable) for a martial tradition at 1st level.
I guess there isn't any real problem then. Sounds good to me.

All the SoM classes automatically qualify for martial traditions as laid out in their proficiencies entries, so Scholar definitely gets one. Normally you should need to have either proficiency with all martial weapons or at least 1 exotic weapon to buy into a martial tradition though, I'll have to double check and make sure some text didn't wander off there.

***EDIT***
You may want to make sure you're looking at the most recent playtest docs; the full text should read-

"Martial traditions are specialized training skill sets that grant a character a specific packet of capabilities. Some classes gain a martial tradition as part of their proficiencies, but characters who do not may choose to trade their starting proficiencies (other than simple weapons, light armor, and bucklers, if applicable) for a martial tradition at 1st level, as long as their normal starting proficiencies include proficiency with all martial weapons or at least one exotic weapon (this does not include clerics whose deity’s favored weapon is an exotic weapon or similar features that modify starting proficiencies based on other character choices). Some classes who do not gain proficiency with all martial weapons but whose class description implies a strong martial background may trade their starting proficiencies for a martial tradition with GM approval."

For reference, these should all be the current playtest links-

Spheres 1
Spheres 2
Spheres 3
Classes 1
Classes 2
Additional Rules
Conversion Archetypes
Sage and Troubadour (gish classes)


Ah. Mine isn't the most recent document then, I'd bet on that and I have terrible luck.

I'll make sure to take a look at them again when I get home.


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There are also Legendary Talents that are currently in Playtesting.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Grovestrider wrote:
There are also Legendary Talents that are currently in Playtesting.

My bad, I forgot those weren't in the additional rules docs. Our in-house document organization is a bit different than the playtest doc organization.


There was a thread on the Drop Dead Studios Website where it was mentioned that the Dev's were discussing the prospect of doing a complete overhaul on all the spheres, particularly in regard to martial focus and dedication.

I am about to begin a new game where 3+ players will be using Spheres of Might (A scholar, A sentinel, and a troubadour; possibly also including a technician and an investigator archetype using spheres of power or might). Mostly I am curious, should this overhaul take place how long will it take for the changes to be made public, and should will we be expecting a 'Preview: Round 4'?

Silver Crusade

Grovestrider wrote:

There was a thread on the Drop Dead Studios Website where it was mentioned that the Dev's were discussing the prospect of doing a complete overhaul on all the spheres, particularly in regard to martial focus and dedication.

I am about to begin a new game where 3+ players will be using Spheres of Might (A scholar, A sentinel, and a troubadour; possibly also including a technician and an investigator archetype using spheres of power or might). Mostly I am curious, should this overhaul take place how long will it take for the changes to be made public, and should will we be expecting a 'Preview: Round 4'?

Right now this is just a discussion, but as a whole, I don't think it should cause enough issues to require a round 4 preview, more like a round 3.1 more than anything. There's a lot of interesting talk going around though on how to make things more streamlined for ease of play though, so we'll keep everyone updated on any possible changes, as well as a possible change to poisons in the alchemy sphere.


I was thinking of a Knack for the Scholar that allowed you to add Int modifier to AC and CMD, a sort of Cunning Defender, but limit it to the Scholar's level (like the Kensai Magus) or a level requirement to push off level dipping for it.

Too powerful?


Wraithguard wrote:

I was thinking of a Knack for the Scholar that allowed you to add Int modifier to AC and CMD, a sort of Cunning Defender, but limit it to the Scholar's level (like the Kensai Magus) or a level requirement to push off level dipping for it.

Too powerful?

I believe the Dev's have been discussing the prospect of making an Equipment talent that allows you to add your Practioner Ability Modifier (PAB) to AC and CMD; Which I completely support BTW.

So do I think it is too powerful? Not in the slightest.


I figured that there are plenty of ways to add Cha to darn near everything with a dip or feat.

As far as the Scholar is concerned, Knacks are a very powerful class feature and using one on a defensive increase is a significant investment. Seems like a balanced trade to me, so long as Extra Knack never becomes a thing.

Grovestrider wrote:
I believe the Dev's have been discussing the prospect of making an Equipment talent that allows you to add your Practioner Ability Modifier (PAB) to AC and CMD; Which I completely support BTW.

I find that very interesting.


Grovestrider wrote:
Wraithguard wrote:

I was thinking of a Knack for the Scholar that allowed you to add Int modifier to AC and CMD, a sort of Cunning Defender, but limit it to the Scholar's level (like the Kensai Magus) or a level requirement to push off level dipping for it.

Too powerful?

I believe the Dev's have been discussing the prospect of making an Equipment talent that allows you to add your Practioner Ability Modifier (PAB) to AC and CMD; Which I completely support BTW.

So do I think it is too powerful? Not in the slightest.

This ability needs to be worded so that casters cannot steal it; should Swashbucklers be getting charisma to AC? Absolutely. Should Sorcerers? Absolutely not. I wouldn't be bothered if having 6th or 9th level casting (or the equivalent of spells for SoP) barred you from using the talent entirely.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Grovestrider wrote:
Wraithguard wrote:

I was thinking of a Knack for the Scholar that allowed you to add Int modifier to AC and CMD, a sort of Cunning Defender, but limit it to the Scholar's level (like the Kensai Magus) or a level requirement to push off level dipping for it.

Too powerful?

I believe the Dev's have been discussing the prospect of making an Equipment talent that allows you to add your Practioner Ability Modifier (PAB) to AC and CMD; Which I completely support BTW.

So do I think it is too powerful? Not in the slightest.

This ability needs to be worded so that casters cannot steal it; should Swashbucklers be getting charisma to AC? Absolutely. Should Sorcerers? Absolutely not. I wouldn't be bothered if having 6th or 9th level casting (or the equivalent of spells for SoP) barred you from using the talent entirely.

Thing is, Spheres of Power offers a number of ways for spellcasters to gain their Casting Ability Modifier to AC with almost no investment at-all.


Really? What talents/feats/abilities do that?

I must have missed something really awesome.


Wraithguard wrote:

Really? What talents/feats/abilities do that?

I must have missed something really awesome.

Dipping a single level into one of the following classes can get you your CAM to AC w/out much sacrifice (because CL is like BAB):

- Hedgewitch (either via Entropic Sage archetype or Charlatan tradition)
- Symbiat


Ah. I hadn't checked out either of those very much. One level dip is definitely a small investment for something that might be a +4-+5 and likely scaling higher quickly.


Wraithguard wrote:
Ah. I hadn't checked out either of those very much. One level dip is definitely a small investment for something that might be a +4-+5 and likely scaling higher quickly.

Also note that in the instance of the Hedgewitch, the class is VERY dip friendly. In-fact, some people dip into Hedgewitch for nothing more than the Channel Spirit Allies power of the Spiritualism Tradition.

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