Hi, I'm trying to make a module for a group, but I don't know how to balance the encounters, I want it to be a challenge but I don't know if it is even possible.
I've been looking at the encounters from one adventure path and seem too weak, even more so when I started reading the forums, seeing casters blaster with damage of 4d4+8 at lvl 1 or 10d6+20 at lvl 6 or worse conjurer casters, and many many others like summoners, ooze polymorphed druids, unstoppable barbarians, etc.
I looked at one module from pfs and the encounters seem more tough, is this true?
So here I am trying to understand the kind of enemies that those powerful characters face that are not just cannon fodder.
Is this even worth pursuing? Or should I just accept that the PCs end the combats in the first round. Or maybe with enough combats every day so that after many they face one with a bit of danger?
Try playtesting. Pick some of the worrisome builds you've come across on this forum and elsewhere and form a party for testing. Run several of the combats from some modules and see what the effect is. Try a few custom combats and see how things work out.
What you should tend to find with parties consisting of highly specialised characters is that they waltz through level appropriate encounters that play to their strengths but are very fragile if they come across an encounter that hits a weak spot. A more rounded party has less weaknesses but cannot destroy a level appropriate encounter so easily.
Also remember that most adventures assume that the party will have more than one encounter a day, so a party that consumes a lot of resources in a single encounter will coast through the first encounter but struggle with the subsequent encounters.
Basically encounter variety is the key. Some groups will make mincemeat of large numbers of weak opponents, whilst others will struggle due to the action economy. Similarly some groups can use their greater numbers to beat a single powerful creature through the action economy. Creatures with a save-or-suck or similar ability can change the encounter dynamic very quickly. Terrain can play a big part in an encounter and should be brought into play.
Three low-mid level encounters to try out as examples.
1. A group of (say 3 for a CR6 encounter) Twigjacks ambush the party walking through a path in dense forest. They all use their splinterspray ability initially and then bramble jump to enough to spread out. They will save 20 feet of bramble jump to escape but otherwise will use stealth, bramble jump and woodland stride to move about the tress getting vectors where they can use their remaining splintersprays to hit 2 or more party members at once. Once they are out of splintersprays or at half hit points they will retreat. To be extra cruel, try the encounter at night - perhaps attacking the party's campsite
2. A group of (say 4 for a CR5 encounter) giant frogs in a boggy swamp with several quicksand areas. Frogs typically wait for victims to come within range and use their tongues, so this encounter is another likely ambush. The frogs are able to jump and swim so should be able to move around the swamp without difficulty, whilst the party's movement will be hampered, unless they have abilities to counter it. The party may be too distracted to check for quicksand and may fall into it.
3. The party has to cross a 120' narrow stone arch bridge (9 inches wide - DC10, 12 or 15 depending on the part of the bridge). Allow them to make whatever preparations they want. At the most opportune moment, when the party are either split/in the middle etc. A pair of harpy appear. Each initially uses their song to try and lure party members over the edge before throwing rocks and dropping boulders at the party (improvised weapons, but the aim is to knock opponents off the bridge). At no point do the harpies enter melee range unless dealing with a flying or compromised (e.g. hanging off the bridge) opponent.
Try running the three encounters one after the other in any order with no chance to regain abilities between each encounter.
Is this for a specific group of characters or module that can be used with any characters? It is a lot easier to balance things if you know what the capabilities of the party are. When I run a campaign I usually have a good idea of what my players are going to be so I can Taylor the campaign to them. Typically I will give the players and Idea of what the campaign is going to be about and then only create the first few encounters. After that I have an idea what the characters are capable of so can better plan what I can and cannot do.
This also allows me to go over the encounters to see if anything is too far out of balance. Running through a planned encounter a few times in your head is also a good way to keep the game moving. Since this is not the first time you have played through the encounter you are able to move a lot faster and keep your players engaged instead of spending your time with your nose buried in a book like a lot of GM’s do.
Try playtesting.(...)Run several of the combats from some modules and see what the effect is. Try a few custom combats and see how things work out.
Thanks a lot, your advice is sound, I'll try to playtest some monsters against some characters though since I lack the system mastery it won't be easy.
Seeing you put forth some encounters in so little time, with different tactics to boot, makes me think I have a long road ahead if I want to become a good GM, long way indeed.
I have several questions about them.
1. What level would you put the party to fight those 3 encounters?
2. Would you consider the encounters in unfavorable terrain increasing the CR by 1?
And one repeated question if you happen to know, would you use the way the adventure paths seem to make the encounters or the Society?
I might be wrong but it seems that APs make many encounters that the PCs might do in one day but lower power and the modules seem like they last for a full day but the encounters are higher CR.
Is this for a specific group of characters or module that can be used with any characters?
I only played a few times with this group, I'm not the GM but I would like to GM in the future, if not with this group at least learning the how to's.
But most often than not the encounters ended fast, one caster charming the enemy, the other caster blasting everything to ashes and when they couldn't the melee would end up doing some insane crits, they worked quite well together.So I fear that things would end up even worse being me as the gm since I don't know much.
Another problem is that my improvisation skills are inexistent sadly. So if I go and tell them I have this story I could GM but I won't know the monsters until they create the characters I doubt they would want to play. I would need a week or more to prepare it I guess.
Besides I think for now its just something in my mind, I don't think I'm prepared to GM.
Try playtesting.(...)Run several of the combats from some modules and see what the effect is. Try a few custom combats and see how things work out.Thanks a lot, your advice is sound, I'll try to playtest some monsters against some characters though since I lack the system mastery it won't be easy.
Seeing you put forth some encounters in so little time, with different tactics to boot, makes me think I have a long road ahead if I want to become a good GM, long way indeed.
I only played a few times with this group, I'm not the GM but I would like to GM in the future, if not with this group at least learning the how too's.
But most often than not the encounters ended fast... they worked quite well together.
So I fear that things would end up even worse being me as the gm since I don't know much.Another problem is that my improvisation skills are inexistent sadly. So if I go and tell them I have this story I could GM but I won't know the monsters until they create the characters I doubt they would want to play. I would need a week or more to prepare it I guess.
Besides I think for now its just something in my mind, I don't think I'm prepared to GM.
First: Every one of us GM's started new at some point. AP's are great for new GM's to learn the system before creating homebrews.
GM Mastery Tips
The GM screen has many rules reference shortcuts, this makes it look like GM's have everything memorized! Add stickies for other rules you need.
Know your PC's first. Look through their builds to be certain they are fairly made and only using the resources you are allowing, at the same time check the rules on their particular abilities and add them to your board. If they use an ability, you already have the rules written down at least.
Use your players, if they have system mastery, then they will likely not hesitate to help you out with rules lawyering (as long as the game doesn't bog down for long). You can always GM it and say allow/not allow we will look this up at a later time, but the ruling stands for that moment at least.
Look though the bestiary for encounter advice. Often the fluff text on a particular monster can give you great ideas. Most of that encounter is ripped right out of the Harpy entry.
Steal, Steal, Steal! Modules, forum posters, bestiary entries, books, movies, etc. If its great there, then its great for you. You don't need to be the most original if you can be fun.
Plan a little, improvise a LOT! Once you understand the basic rules, and have all of your options available, then plan a few small encounters and story elements. Make 3 encounters at level for that terrain, if they run into trouble pull one out and throw it at them where they stand. If they do something crazy (they will), have generic monsters, or have 1 encounter for every major Ranger terrain list ready to go. Then make more when those are used up.
Random tables! There are many encounter generators, loot generators, map generators, etc on the internet let them do the work for you if you are having trouble. then tailor the encounter to the creature's entry. Intelligent creatures are fun because they use tactics like PC's.
Not every encounter is with a creature! Real world hazards can be just as fun, storms, avalanches, forest fires, volcanoes, tornadoes, dust storms, barricaded passages, rock slides, impassible cliffs, pits and fissures, swamps, quicksand, super dense brambles/woods/jungle. use the real world for examples.
Not every encounter is combat! In an optimized party sometimes social encounters are death.
Engineer for their weaknesses AND their strengths. Know your PC's, if they lack will saves then throw some charms at them on occasion (variety is the spice of life). If one person is always the social party "Face", make the NPC's want to talk to EVERYONE, or negate that individual (oh only your Barbarian speaks Goblin? Well guess which language you need...)
Terrain should not add +1CR unless it can do damage, so thick bush, or water no. Lava or a sheer cliff, maybe.
1. What level would you put the party to fight those 3 encounters?
2. Would you consider the encounters in unfavorable terrain increasing the CR by 1?
The three encounters as presented are CR6, CR5 and CR6. They should be average encounters for a 6th level party of four characters. A group of 4th level characters would find them hard, whilst a group of 8th level character should find them very easy [according to the PRD]
As a general rule, the CR for a creature takes into account it's environment. The twigjack encounter is in normal dense forest with no special environmental hazards. In a featureless dungeon room the twigjacks would be quite weak.
The harpy encounter is possibly a candidate for boosting the CR of the encounter. The bridge requires multiple acrobatics checks, which could result in instant death unless safeguards are taken. But really at level 6 or thereabouts, flight should be possible for some of the group and at least one character should find the bridge trivial to cross. The whole encounter will be about getting off the bridge and using missile fire and ranged magic. If anyone falls to their death then they didn't take adequate precautions to secure themselves against a fall, harpies or not. Where the encounter could be dangerous is if a character becomes isolated from the rest of the party - e.g. a flying mage, one person on the other sides of the bridge or dangling from a rope.
The frog encounter is somewhere in between. Quicksand is listed as part of the marsh environment and on its own is trivial to spot and easy to escape. If you are allowing characters in combat to spot it unless running or charging (which is RAW, though one might argue that combat doesn't allow the luxury of spotting quicksand) then it is not worth boosting the CR of the encounter. If the player made a bad tactical decision or built a character that could not take 10 on a DC8 Untrained Survival check then it is their own fault. If you were to make quicksand something that took an action to check for during combat then it would be worth boosting the CR.
I use variety in my encounters and expect good strategic and tactical play out of my group. Generally I expect them to perform reconnaissance before striking so I don't pay much attention to how many encounters as I expect the group to control to a degree whether or they choose to engage or not. The group might progress through many trivial encounters and beat a retreat a single tough encounter or gear themselves up for a single strike mission against a very tough opponent and their cohorts.
Looking at the way the CR table is built though:
An APL=CR encounter should use about 25% of the party's resources, whilst a APL+4 encounter (i.e. a 4 character party facing it's mirror) should have a 50:50 survival rate. Maybe a rule of thumb might be, aim for 3/4 of the sum of the party levels per day. That roughly equates to one APL+3 encounter or are variety of lesser encounters and should stretch the parties resources without killing off the characters.
As a final note, I philosophically disagree with designing the adventure to fit the party beyond making it level appropriate. It is the players' collective responsibility to build a team that can enter the unknown and be successful. If they've made four hyper-specialised characters that between them have left massive capability gaps then they will undoubtedly find some encounters very easy and then die horribly.
I wouldn't get overwhelmed by all the "super uber builds" out on the web. Many are so super-specialized, they have lots of weaknesses and vulnerabilities. If a warrior can do 100 points of damage in one hit, put her against 10 things with 10 hit points each. If a knight has AC 50, don't attack him, or target his Reflex or Will saves, or force him to make an Intelligence or Charisma check.
Also, when you design an adventure for your group, you're designing an adventure for your group. If you don't have raging pillar of fire, you don't have to worry about raging pillars of fire. If you don't have a rogue with a +50 to Disable Device, you don't have to make DC 60 locks and traps.
And on the other hand, you can have a lot of fun playing to their strengths. For example, if you have a paladin, a cleric, a druid, an oracle, a bard, and an inquisitor, you can dish out a lot of damage and let them heal in combat. If you have a barbarian, bard, a rogue, a swashbuckler, and a monk, you can put them in environments with lots of interesting tactical movement. If you have a bard, ranger, inquisitor, rogue, and monk, you can do lots of Stealth missions. If you have a bunch archers, give them cover opportunities.
On another level, you can get copies of the PCs character sheets, see what their various bonuses are, do the math, and set up challenges so the PCs chances of success and failure meet the parameters you want. This can be a little hard in PF because there is a lot of math! For example, if you have 4 PCs, with attack bonuses of +6, +3, +4, and +2, and you want them to hit about half the time, set the AC of the opponents at 13 or 14. If you want them to hit less often, use critters with higher ACs (or have them wear better armor or use shields, or trade out a feat for Dodge, etc.). If you want the PCs to hit more often, give them flanking opportunities or higher ground, have the monsters be fatigued, sickened (drunk?), or shaken.
Another thing to be aware of is action economy. 6 PCs vs. 1 giant are getting 6 (or more!) attacks per round vs. 1 from the giant--2 if it's lucky enough to make an AoO. This is why minions are so important in big boss fights.
There is a reason Hugo Rune's examples have multiple monsters in them.
He also uses lots of interesting terrain. A simple square dungeon room is fun once in a while, but putting interesting terrain features in an encounter can really make things a lot more challenging and fun. Even something as simple as a statue in the middle of the room can be used to break up line of sight and effect, provide cover for archers, something to climb onto or hide behind, and possibly a trap or hazard or other dungeon feature--or at least something to search and/or give the PCs something else to think or worry about.
The best way to run a game is to get together with the players and discuss what kind of campaign everyone wants to play in. This is the point to decide the setting and major focus of the campaign. Will this be an urban setting focusing on intrigue, or maybe a campaign based on defeating a powerful lich or demon? There is a big difference between a campaign whose setting is the capital of Cheliax and one where you are exploring the Mwangi Expanse. You don’t need all the details at this point just the general feel of what the campaign is going to be. This also give your players enough information to build suitable characters.
Once you have an idea of what the campaign is going to be like you can start planning things out in a general way. Setup a rough outline of your plot and design the first portion of the campaign. Don’t worry about the latter parts as you will want to keep flexible enough to adapt to what your players do. And no matter how what you plan you can count on your players coming up with something you did not think of. The first part of the campaign should be fairly easy so don’t worry about making things challenging. There are two reasons to keep things simple in the early stages. First is to allow the characters to figure out how to work together and come up with group tactics. The second is to allow them think of themselves as powerful character. Think of it as a confidence building and setting them up for more latter.
Next have a session 0 where you work on creating characters and figuring out how and why the group is going to work together. At the end of the session you know what your players will be playing and have a better idea of what they can do. Make sure to get a copy of each character so you know everything about the characters and there are no surprises. Once you have this you can go back and fine tune your encounters. Don’t plan too far in advance because your players will always do something you did not plan. This also means your ideas are fresh in your mind when you actually run the encounter.
The Single most important thing when running is to know the characters you are running for. This is why a lot of published adventures seem weak. They are written with the idea that any group can be used. This means you have to plan around the lowest denominator instead of planning for the group you are running.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'll leave some links here:
1) GM's Guide to challenging encounters
An excellent intro to encounter design and why some things work and some things don't.
Man, I bet the guy who wrote this one is a total hack.
Woah, so many answers :)
This is a great community indeed. Don't know where to begin.
First: AP's are great for new GM's to learn the system before creating homebrews.
I decided to buy one AP, Rise of the Runelords since is one of the only two available in my language, sadly they already completed it but will help me get lots of examples.
Thanks for the tips, let's see.
Knowing the characters before anything will be difficult but I'll try that when the time comes.
Improvising though will be even worse, I think that I need to begin with everything prepared or I will get a blank in the middle of the game, I wish I would be able to improvise but I doubt it.
If I manage to grow accostumed to be a GM I would reduce the plan and make the game more free, but for now I really think I need something more like a railroad.
I know it's not good but I see it as the lesser of two evils, better to railroad than to have a blank in the middle of the game not knowing what to do for several minutes or more.
Steal, Steal, Steal! Modules...
About this, looking at a encounter from a module I saw something different, the PCs where inside some building and it gets attacked by a lot of undead, but instead of making it a combat encounter its played like a chase or something like that.
It seemed very cool but left me with several questions, I just imagined my friend's blaster asking how many and where are they, make some calculations and say I fireball here and here... and done. hahaHow to transition from the rules of combat and those special rules?, maybe it was in the module but didn't have enough time(I looked at it while waiting for the others to arrive at the GM's house).
Not every encounter is with a creature! Not every encounter is combat!
Hmm, you are right, I'll need to have a open mind and introduce more social and environment challenges.
This is getting more complicated as I learn, the GM I played with made it seem like it was easy buuut it's nothing but easy heh.The three encounters as presented are CR6, CR5 and CR6...
Great that explains a lot thanks so normal environment no, damaging hazard yes for CR.
Looking at the way the CR table is built though:
I knew of this (a little), read the guide linked below before.
In truth I think it was the reason of posting.I'm quite sure it would be useful for the character I played but the others destroy the opposition too easily and without spending that many resources, then again the other players way of play, by their words, "for fun", and "I don't want my character to die, so it won't die" created this dissonance.
In the end I never felt fear of defeat, success seemed assured, and I just an spectator (I'm a terrible roleplayer too so I didn't immerse in the game) for the actions of the other players.
The only time where I felt my character would die is when I got separated, I ended up getting paranoid and try to find refuge, it was fun though.
I wouldn't get overwhelmed by all the "super uber builds" out on the web.
Too late for that. haha
Not only for the builds, just the rules for characters are already quite daunting, add all the things needed to know for being a GM, etc trying to get it all just in my head I'm getting overwhelmed.
I'll leave some links here:
I knew of the first link found it while lurking the forums but not the others so thanks a lot for them. :)
Next have a session 0...
Session 0, seems like its really useful, several of you made the same point, I'll take heed.
About the idea, that's the easy part, but then making a game out of that its really hard, I know that it shouldn't be just a GM story but knowing the players can change the outcome at any given notice is difficult to envision.
To everyone thanks for your help and time its been very useful.