How catastrophic is the gap?


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Millions, perhaps even billions of people must have been doing incredibly dangerous or life-saving work when their memory got blanked.

Also, what happened to culture and science? Since recorded information was erased as well, do people have to invent new cultures from scratch, pieced together by influence of what relics of their now-unknown civilisation surround them?


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I'd imagine the mind wipe was imposed after the fact...maybe it's part of the reason there were Gap lengths of different starting and stopping times, so that no one was doing anything especially hazardous or time intensive while the Gap disoriented them.

(It would be an evil act for sure if it happened haphazardly like the book and TV series Flash Forward.)


Yeah, I did think of Flash Forward. There's still the issue of people forgetting 'everything'.

What does 'everything' encompass? Clearly they didn't forget language or skills. But did they forget how they learned them?


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There is also no reason to assume that the time when memories and records were wiped coincides with the end of the lost time period. If we were at this moment to suddenly lose all memory and records of events between 50 and 1000 years ago, only those of us reading or thinking about events during that time period would be disoriented.


That's a good point.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Have you ever seen Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them? At the end of the film, New York gets mindwiped and people just...keep doing what they're doing as they're losing their memories. I imagine it was like that, you wake up one morning and suddenly realize you can't remember the name of the war your grandfather fought in or who founded the country you live in.


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Another possibility is that instead of people's minds getting biologically wiped, time itself glitched, and so the current Starfinder time is actually from a hodgepodge of corrupted timelines that got patched together. Maybe somebody was doing some really dangerous experiments with time travel (or even trying to wage a temporal war -- think Terminator, but worse), and caused a chain of paradoxes? Lucky everything for several thousand light years around Golarion didn't just get sucked into a black hole to erase the paradox chain . . . .


two points to add to this,

1) It is not millions or billions, it is untold trillions. It is every living thing in the known multiverse as after several centuries and access across planes, no one has found anyone who didnt suffer the Gap.

2) It was not so unkind as to wipe out all knowledge completely, The developers stated that the moment after the gap people still knew things, family relations, job skills, who was at war with who, but they did not have context for those events. Who taught them, what was their first date like, why they were at war. It make the Gap seem much more likely the result of a conscious mind at work instead of some exceptionally astronomic fluke


UnArcaneElection wrote:

Another possibility is that instead of people's minds getting biologically wiped, time itself glitched, and so the current Starfinder time is actually from a hodgepodge of corrupted timelines that got patched together. Maybe somebody was doing some really dangerous experiments with time travel (or even trying to wage a temporal war -- think Terminator, but worse), and caused a chain of paradoxes? Lucky everything for several thousand light years around Golarion didn't just get sucked into a black hole to erase the paradox chain . . . .

I quite like this idea, especially after playing the new Zelda and trying to figure out what timeline it takes place in, i have fallen in with the melding timeline theory where all previous games happened before it. So a higher god or counsel of gods from across the multiverse could have stitched together various timelines resulting in the Gap from when everything was spun out until when it was all merged back together. Mucking about with fixed points in time tends to do things like that you know...


Torbyne wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

Another possibility is that instead of people's minds getting biologically wiped, time itself glitched, and so the current Starfinder time is actually from a hodgepodge of corrupted timelines that got patched together. Maybe somebody was doing some really dangerous experiments with time travel (or even trying to wage a temporal war -- think Terminator, but worse), and caused a chain of paradoxes? Lucky everything for several thousand light years around Golarion didn't just get sucked into a black hole to erase the paradox chain . . . .

I quite like this idea, especially after playing the new Zelda and trying to figure out what timeline it takes place in, i have fallen in with the melding timeline theory where all previous games happened before it. So a higher god or counsel of gods from across the multiverse could have stitched together various timelines resulting in the Gap from when everything was spun out until when it was all merged back together. Mucking about with fixed points in time tends to do things like that you know...

digression:
As a timeline nut, merging seems like a cop-out theory. Because the mechanics of a merge would be unknown, it's a notion literally impossible to rule out. It could be true, but that doesn't add anything.

Personally, I think it's mid downfall timeline (between the Oracle games and the NES games). Master sword is in lost woods and [b]not[b] in the temple of time, with less than full power (as in ALttP and ALBW). Hyrule was in a prosperous time where the triforce was used (Oracles, Zelda 2 backstory), Ganon is a known entity and has questionable sentience (as the Oracles fight). Basically everything (including stuff I haven't mentioned) is explainable with it here.


from everything else we have seen it would appear to be a far future in any of the known timelines as there would have to be time for the sheikah to develop such insane magi-tech and then ten thousand years past that to get to the point the game actually takes place in, also Ganon has apparently shed his mortal body at some point before the height of Sheikah advancement as their whole army was developed due to being tired of dealing with his crap after he became the "calamity" form. I am not sure if you want to count Wolf Link as canon but we have references to the twilight realm along with rito and zora which as far as i knew only existed in a separate timeline from the twillight princess events. Names appear from all three timelines as places but that might be the weakest evidence... but still, i could see the various goddesses pulling shenanigans to meld the timelines together.


Torbyne wrote:
from everything else we have seen it would appear to be a far future in any of the known timelines as there would have to be time for the sheikah to develop such insane magi-tech and then ten thousand years past that to get to the point the game actually takes place in, also Ganon has apparently shed his mortal body at some point before the height of Sheikah advancement as their whole army was developed due to being tired of dealing with his crap after he became the "calamity" form. I am not sure if you want to count Wolf Link as canon but we have references to the twilight realm along with rito and zora which as far as i knew only existed in a separate timeline from the twillight princess events. Names appear from all three timelines as places but that might be the weakest evidence... but still, i could see the various goddesses pulling shenanigans to meld the timelines together.

The twilight realm exists in all timelines, as the interlopers arrived before OOT.

My beleif on the origin of the tech is that most of it was reverse-engineered from SS-era lanaryu and/or proto-twili artifacts. Going further with this, they weren't certain how to control the original devices (guardians/divine beasts), leading to them falling to ganon, but the modern-developped versions are still under sheikah control (shrine bots).

On the rito, it was stated that, post Skyward Sword, the loftwings returned to skyloft. Evolution from there into the rito wouldn't be out of the question, especially since a carving in Twilight Princess HD shows a progression of loftwing->rito->oocca. This puts them separate from the WW rito who are zora descendants.

Speaking of the zora, I noticed their designed are more shark-like. To me, this points to them being descended from the Sea Zora in Oracle of Ages. Zora change physically based on the water conditions (why the zora in, say ALBW, look different from the ones in OOT), and considering the state of hyrule, keeping close to the original appearance implies they haven't been here all that long. Again, pointing to a recent immigration of Labrynna Sea zora during hyrule's heyday.


Torbyne wrote:

two points to add to this,

1) It is not millions or billions, it is untold trillions. It is every living thing in the known multiverse as after several centuries and access across planes, no one has found anyone who didnt suffer the Gap.

2) It was not so unkind as to wipe out all knowledge completely, The developers stated that the moment after the gap people still knew things, family relations, job skills, who was at war with who, but they did not have context for those events. Who taught them, what was their first date like, why they were at war. It make the Gap seem much more likely the result of a conscious mind at work instead of some exceptionally astronomic fluke

There is no reason to fight a war if people cannot remember the reason they are fighting it. Lets say Empire A swiped some territory from Empire B and then he mind wipe occurred. Empire B doesn't know that Empire A just took some of their territory. The Soldiers of Empire A don't know why they are here facing the soldiers of Empire B, they remember they have a spouse and children, so they go home to them. The commanders don't know what orders they just issued to their troops, they don't even know what their strategic plan was or what was their military objective! The war ends because of the mindwipe, the aggressor forgot what he was trying to do, his plans to conquer Empire B are gone from his head, he has to make new ones if he is to procede, but he has to first decide what it is he wants to do!


The Sideromancer wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
from everything else we have seen it would appear to be a far future in any of the known timelines as there would have to be time for the sheikah to develop such insane magi-tech and then ten thousand years past that to get to the point the game actually takes place in, also Ganon has apparently shed his mortal body at some point before the height of Sheikah advancement as their whole army was developed due to being tired of dealing with his crap after he became the "calamity" form. I am not sure if you want to count Wolf Link as canon but we have references to the twilight realm along with rito and zora which as far as i knew only existed in a separate timeline from the twillight princess events. Names appear from all three timelines as places but that might be the weakest evidence... but still, i could see the various goddesses pulling shenanigans to meld the timelines together.

The twilight realm exists in all timelines, as the interlopers arrived before OOT.

My beleif on the origin of the tech is that most of it was reverse-engineered from SS-era lanaryu and/or proto-twili artifacts. Going further with this, they weren't certain how to control the original devices (guardians/divine beasts), leading to them falling to ganon, but the modern-developped versions are still under sheikah control (shrine bots).

On the rito, it was stated that, post Skyward Sword, the loftwings returned to skyloft. Evolution from there into the rito wouldn't be out of the question, especially since a carving in Twilight Princess HD shows a progression of loftwing->rito->oocca. This puts them separate from the WW rito who are zora descendants.

Speaking of the zora, I noticed their designed are more shark-like. To me, this points to them being descended from the Sea Zora in Oracle of Ages. Zora change physically based on the water conditions (why the zora in, say ALBW, look different from the ones in OOT), and considering the state of hyrule, keeping close to the original appearance implies they...

I was under the impression that the beasts and guardians had been used at least once before to defeat Ganon in the 10,000 year prior period and that it was only knowing they would be used again that Ganon was able to plan for and take control of them.

The Shrine bots are weird... they dont react like guardians at all (i wasted a few ancient arrows to determine that one) i suppose i wrote off their behavior as protected due to being in a shrine and hidden away from Ganon's Malice.

i suppose that if its so far into the future from any other known point than it could be in any timeline as the same worlds and names could pop up and just be superficial similarities to events we know from other games.


Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Torbyne wrote:

two points to add to this,

1) It is not millions or billions, it is untold trillions. It is every living thing in the known multiverse as after several centuries and access across planes, no one has found anyone who didnt suffer the Gap.

2) It was not so unkind as to wipe out all knowledge completely, The developers stated that the moment after the gap people still knew things, family relations, job skills, who was at war with who, but they did not have context for those events. Who taught them, what was their first date like, why they were at war. It make the Gap seem much more likely the result of a conscious mind at work instead of some exceptionally astronomic fluke

There is no reason to fight a war if people cannot remember the reason they are fighting it. Lets say Empire A swiped some territory from Empire B and then he mind wipe occurred. Empire B doesn't know that Empire A just took some of their territory. The Soldiers of Empire A don't know why they are here facing the soldiers of Empire B, they remember they have a spouse and children, so they go home to them. The commanders don't know what orders they just issued to their troops, they don't even know what their strategic plan was or what was their military objective! The war ends because of the mindwipe, the aggressor forgot what he was trying to do, his plans to conquer Empire B are gone from his head, he has to make new ones if he is to procede, but he has to first decide what it is he wants to do!

Yes, but this is still an extrapolation from our basic understanding of what the Gap was. If the Gap is a directed mindwipe to remove specific events from history, or the result of merging timelines with competing narratives wiping each other out, than they may remember more nuances to their past, enough perhaps to want to continue to fight even if some larger parts of the reason or motivations were nulled out.

I forget the specifics but i know there was at least one real world battle fought after peace was declared mostly because two armies marches all the way out there, found each other and were too hyped up to back down so they fought anyways. i have seen references to that set up in some fictional works as well. Mostly with sub FTL fleets that fight their battles even though the empires that sent them dont even exist anymore when they reach the planets they are fighting over.

Anyways, it could be spun in many ways depending on how much they want to explain the immediate post gap period.

It would be fun to see an AP deal with the after math of some of that chaos.


Maybe we should make a separate thread elsewhere for this

Repeating names without meaning is known to occur (for example, the OOT sages' names for towns in zelda 2). I do think the beasts/guardians have been used against Demise's forces previously, though not technically Ganon's. 10 000 seems like a decent ballpark between SS-era (when the tech was first used) and Zelda 1 (which I think BotW preceeds).

Timelines can be ruled out.

adult timeline reasoning, WW ending spoilers:

Wish on the triforce that Old Hyrule be forgotten. Even in the unlikely event that the seas drain, this holds. In addition, the Master Sword is enshrined, and not implanted in Ganon's face.

child timeline reasoning, TP ending spoilers:

Somebody's found the Mirror of Twilight in BotW. It is fragmented, which produces a problem if it occurs in the same timeline as TP. the Mirror needs to be intact during the backstory of TP, but is obliterated after TP. In other words, BotW only occurs in the same timeline as TP if it occurs before, and the Mirror is restored between them (no reason this would occur) or if they occur simultaneously (worldstates are completely different)

Liberty's Edge

Could we take the exhaustive discussion of Legend of Zelda to another part of the forum This feels incredibly off topic at this point.


Torbyne wrote:
Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Torbyne wrote:

two points to add to this,

1) It is not millions or billions, it is untold trillions. It is every living thing in the known multiverse as after several centuries and access across planes, no one has found anyone who didnt suffer the Gap.

2) It was not so unkind as to wipe out all knowledge completely, The developers stated that the moment after the gap people still knew things, family relations, job skills, who was at war with who, but they did not have context for those events. Who taught them, what was their first date like, why they were at war. It make the Gap seem much more likely the result of a conscious mind at work instead of some exceptionally astronomic fluke

There is no reason to fight a war if people cannot remember the reason they are fighting it. Lets say Empire A swiped some territory from Empire B and then he mind wipe occurred. Empire B doesn't know that Empire A just took some of their territory. The Soldiers of Empire A don't know why they are here facing the soldiers of Empire B, they remember they have a spouse and children, so they go home to them. The commanders don't know what orders they just issued to their troops, they don't even know what their strategic plan was or what was their military objective! The war ends because of the mindwipe, the aggressor forgot what he was trying to do, his plans to conquer Empire B are gone from his head, he has to make new ones if he is to procede, but he has to first decide what it is he wants to do!

Yes, but this is still an extrapolation from our basic understanding of what the Gap was. If the Gap is a directed mindwipe to remove specific events from history, or the result of merging timelines with competing narratives wiping each other out, than they may remember more nuances to their past, enough perhaps to want to continue to fight even if some larger parts of the reason or motivations were nulled out.

I forget the specifics but i know there was at least one real...

Sacrificing your life is no small thing, especially if you can't remember the reason why you want to do it!


graywulfe wrote:
Could we take the exhaustive discussion of Legend of Zelda to another part of the forum This feels incredibly off topic at this point.

The SS timeline? This is the only SS I know about, what does it have to do with Starfinder?

Liberty's Edge

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
graywulfe wrote:
Could we take the exhaustive discussion of Legend of Zelda to another part of the forum This feels incredibly off topic at this point.
The SS timeline? This is the only SS I know about, what does it have to do with Starfinder?

Wait you guys are talking about the SS? I must have mixed up your discussion with the Zelda stuff that some people are talking about. I also am not seeing how your conversation about the SS relates to Starfinder, but whatever.


Alright, I've made another thread.

As clarification, SS is an abbreviation referring to Skyward Sword, one of the other games in the Zelda series. It comes up often because it was released immediately before the one in question.


Tom,

That brings up another interesting point, do you suppose that the Gap and then the refusal or inability of the gods to explain the Gap lead to a lot of people turning away from their religions? If a god came along and wiped out most of your memories and history that might influence your view of them...


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I think a lot of people may have turned away from the gods when it became easy to get healing that did not depend on divine magic. With the elimination of the older arcane/divine/psychic divide, medicine becomes a mixture of technology and undifferentiated magic that requires no particular personal philosophy to cast.


Also where did all the level 7-9 spells go?, what about things written on paper, things engraved on stone, erasing people's memory is not enough! You'd have to erase computer memory, papers, carvings every scrap of evidence. What about the gods, are they all of a single mind on this? Are their any rebel deities that are not onboard? This seems like a rather cumbersome plot device, if the deities can be so thorough that they can erase everyone's mind, every scrap of paper with information written down on it on every planet, spaceship and space station, that kind of makes them seem nearly omnipotent to pull this off! How could the PCs ever find evidence if the gods are so thorough, and their are many gods, it seems unlikely they are all in agreement with this. Good, evil, and neutral gods! Not even all the gods of Krynn could pull this off!


Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Also where did all the level 7-9 spells go?, what about things written on paper, things engraved on stone, erasing people's memory is not enough! You'd have to erase computer memory, papers, carvings every scrap of evidence. What about the gods, are they all of a single mind on this? Are their any rebel deities that are not onboard? This seems like a rather cumbersome plot device, if the deities can be so thorough that they can erase everyone's mind, every scrap of paper with information written down on it on every planet, spaceship and space station, that kind of makes them seem nearly omnipotent to pull this off! How could the PCs ever find evidence if the gods are so thorough, and their are many gods, it seems unlikely they are all in agreement with this. Good, evil, and neutral gods! Not even all the gods of Krynn could pull this off!

It's a different game. Different rules.

It's not Pathfinder + tech and a new set of classes. It's a different game.

Yeah, the basic mechanics are similar and it's in the same setting, but that doesn't mean it makes sense to bring a character from one game into the other and expect it to be seamless. You can run cross over games, but they're just that - mashups of two different systems. Fairly close, so it should be easy to do, but it's not the baseline assumption.

All this argument about how it doesn't make sense for the world to change is silly. Yes. It's a plot device. It's an excuse, so they don't have to stay tied to the same rules set with all its problems. Honestly the same thing happens on a lesser scale with every new rulebook? Where were all these character classes before the book came out? Why did people all of sudden start using this whole new set of spells? And feats? Even newly introduced characters who've had them in their backstory for years.
Or on a grander scale the D&D settings that have lasted through multiple editions of the game. Small changes from 1st to 2nd, huge ones from 2nd to 3.0. Minor things from 3.0 to 3.5. Huge ones moving to 4th and again to 5th. What happened to everyone who could do things the old way?

It doesn't really matter. They're papering over the system change. Look to closely and it all breaks. Step back, enjoy the new game for what it is and don't try to force it to be Pathfinder with more tech and some new classes. That's not the point.


Oh well! If its the same setting, there needs to be an in setting explanation in order for it to be the same setting. I don't know why you need to get rid of 7+ spells, its assumed that such high level spellcasters are rare anyway, so if rarely encountered, why are they such a problem in a science fiction setting and not in a fantasy setting? Most people in the setting don't use magic at all! They ride on horses, use swords, fire bows and arrows and most are farmers.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
Maybe somebody was doing some really dangerous experiments with time travel (or even trying to wage a temporal war -- think Terminator, but worse), and caused a chain of paradoxes?

I like this idea. o wo Can this be the thing that happened?


The 7-9th level spells are accessible through other sources, likely rituals, items and artifacts. Just not class abilities.


Maybe gods are just high level characters now! So everyone who is high enough to cast a 7th level spell is now a god!


Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Oh well! If its the same setting, there needs to be an in setting explanation in order for it to be the same setting. I don't know why you need to get rid of 7+ spells, its assumed that such high level spellcasters are rare anyway, so if rarely encountered, why are they such a problem in a science fiction setting and not in a fantasy setting? Most people in the setting don't use magic at all! They ride on horses, use swords, fire bows and arrows and most are farmers.

Maybe they are still around and kicking, even on Absalom 5, but the core focus on the game isnt on people who use magic exclusively so we wont have rules for them as a base class. Just like how the Golarion setting had Maguses and Inquisitors and Gunslingers but we as players didnt know about those parts of the setting until the rules for them were released. Since magic has been integrated into technology so much and, apparently, a lot can be done with tech easier than it could have been with magic there just arent many people who see a benefit to going exclusively magic when they can get to where they want to be faster and easier with studying technomagic. Let's see what the Technomancers and Mystics bring to the table before we assume they are inferior to 9th level casters.


How much of the Starfinder society is made up of historians whose life work was erased?


Also, how much was art, literature and music affected?

Did statues of historical figures disappear? Did entire sections of architecture vanish?


It'd be funny if there were statues of the old iconics that are throw away pieces in the background art with no one knowing who they are or how many times they saved the world.


Most of the character classes in d20 Modern stopped at 10th level as well.


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Umbral Reaver wrote:
How much of the Starfinder society is made up of historians whose life work was erased?

Given that the Gap is apparently several centuries ago, probably no more than a handful of elves and similar long lived types. The situation may have been very different when the organization was founded.


I'm seeing a lot of people saying that 7th through 9th level spells have been removed, is that true?

Do we have a source for that?

If so I'm super excited for Starfinder.

The worst thing about Pathfinder was 7th through 9th level spells.

Liberty's Edge

Umbral Reaver wrote:

Also, how much was art, literature and music affected?

Did statues of historical figures disappear? Did entire sections of architecture vanish?

Without an actual rulebook, I can only speculate, but my speculation is this:

1. Contextually, the arts would have varied changes. Sometimes good art is good art, even if you don't have the context in which it was created. I remember when I was eight, I liked Beethoven's Fifth Symphony and Mozart's A Little Night Music without any context as to their creation or even much knowledge as to who Beethoven and Mozart were. Similarly to some of the classical statuary and paintings that are more realistic. I didn't understand cubism then, so that would be different. Literature might be different, but I think some books would become popular again (I'd like to think Tolkein and Martin would be among these authors, in our universe) simply due to the quality of their works.

2. So the quality of the art about historical figures could be the same, but the context in which they were created would be lost. For example, in New Orleans, there's a statue of General Andrew Jackson in Jackson Square in the French Quarter. It is a well-made statue of a rider in a heroic pose with the horse rearing dramatically. I would suspect that statue would be considered heroic still, though who General Jackson was might be lost. As for architecture, I don't think it would affect structures, but the engineering behind it might need to be reverse-engineered, or remain a mystery.

Torbyne wrote:
I forget the specifics but i know there was at least one real world battle fought after peace was declared mostly because two armies marches all the way out there, found each other and were too hyped up to back down so they fought anyways.

I don't know if it's the one you're thinking of, but that happened at the Battle of New Orleans in the War of 1812 between the relatively fledgling USA and Britain.


Claxon wrote:

I'm seeing a lot of people saying that 7th through 9th level spells have been removed, is that true?

Do we have a source for that?

If so I'm super excited for Starfinder.

The worst thing about Pathfinder was 7th through 9th level spells.

There will be no classes at launch that go beyond 6th level casting, its in a few of the interviews and summarized in the "all we know" thread. They have stated in interviews however that spell effects will still be available but without much explanation on if thats in ancient scrolls, artifacts, rituals, tech devices or... i dunno, just about any macguffin could do it.


Disciple of the Void wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:

Also, how much was art, literature and music affected?

Did statues of historical figures disappear? Did entire sections of architecture vanish?

Without an actual rulebook, I can only speculate, but my speculation is this:

1. Contextually, the arts would have varied changes. Sometimes good art is good art, even if you don't have the context in which it was created. I remember when I was eight, I liked Beethoven's Fifth Symphony and Mozart's A Little Night Music without any context as to their creation or even much knowledge as to who Beethoven and Mozart were. Similarly to some of the classical statuary and paintings that are more realistic. I didn't understand cubism then, so that would be different. Literature might be different, but I think some books would become popular again (I'd like to think Tolkein and Martin would be among these authors, in our universe) simply due to the quality of their works.

2. So the quality of the art about historical figures could be the same, but the context in which they were created would be lost. For example, in New Orleans, there's a statue of General Andrew Jackson in Jackson Square in the French Quarter. It is a well-made statue of a rider in a heroic pose with the horse rearing dramatically. I would suspect that statue would be considered heroic still, though who General Jackson was might be lost. As for architecture, I don't think it would affect structures, but the engineering behind it might need to be reverse-engineered, or remain a mystery.

Torbyne wrote:
I forget the specifics but i know there was at least one real world battle fought after peace was declared mostly because two armies marches all the way out there, found each other and were too hyped up to back down so they fought anyways.
I don't know if it's the one you're thinking of, but that happened at the Battle of New Orleans in the War of 1812 between the relatively fledgling USA and Britain.

That might be the one... going to have to go wiki that up and refresh my memory. Thanks!


There are two aspects to the game, there is the rules and mechanics, and there is the setting, this looks like a setting question. I don't know how you pull off erasing everyone's memory and removing all historical traces to what people forgot. What about computer records, photos, things written on paper, and carved in stone? One possibility is the World is a Matrix as in the movie The Matrix, everything in the world is nothing but code and can easily be erased. All physical structures are not really physical at all. But in order for there to be a mystery, not everything was erased. Historical records prior to the gap still exist Gorlarion was erased because it continues to exist and run in parallel in another Matrix, that is the best explaination I can think of for the gap existing. Now where can we run an entire simulation of an entire galaxy? There is something called a Dyson Sphere. A Dyson Sphere built around our Sun would have the surface area of one billion Earth's, the entire surface would be absorbing sunlight from the central star and using the energy to run a giant computer within the shell structure, simulating an entire galaxy of stars and planets. The people within the simulation would not know they aren't real, and many magical effects can be supplicated in simulation as well! Adding Gorlarion would hardly make a difference in the simulation requirements, it could run on a separate program within the same computer, just not accessible to the inhabitants of the Starfinder Matrix, that's all.

Sovereign Court

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Torbyne wrote:
Disciple of the Void wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:

Also, how much was art, literature and music affected?

Did statues of historical figures disappear? Did entire sections of architecture vanish?

Without an actual rulebook, I can only speculate, but my speculation is this:

1. Contextually, the arts would have varied changes. Sometimes good art is good art, even if you don't have the context in which it was created. I remember when I was eight, I liked Beethoven's Fifth Symphony and Mozart's A Little Night Music without any context as to their creation or even much knowledge as to who Beethoven and Mozart were. Similarly to some of the classical statuary and paintings that are more realistic. I didn't understand cubism then, so that would be different. Literature might be different, but I think some books would become popular again (I'd like to think Tolkein and Martin would be among these authors, in our universe) simply due to the quality of their works.

2. So the quality of the art about historical figures could be the same, but the context in which they were created would be lost. For example, in New Orleans, there's a statue of General Andrew Jackson in Jackson Square in the French Quarter. It is a well-made statue of a rider in a heroic pose with the horse rearing dramatically. I would suspect that statue would be considered heroic still, though who General Jackson was might be lost. As for architecture, I don't think it would affect structures, but the engineering behind it might need to be reverse-engineered, or remain a mystery.

Torbyne wrote:
I forget the specifics but i know there was at least one real world battle fought after peace was declared mostly because two armies marches all the way out there, found each other and were too hyped up to back down so they fought anyways.
I don't know if it's the one you're thinking of, but that happened at the Battle of New Orleans in the War of 1812 between the relatively fledgling USA and
...

The Paris Peace accords were signed about a month before the Battle of new Orleans took place.

Due to the slow speed of crossing the Atlantic, the word had not yet reached either side here in the America's yet.


Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Also where did all the level 7-9 spells go?, what about things written on paper, things engraved on stone, erasing people's memory is not enough! You'd have to erase computer memory, papers, carvings every scrap of evidence. What about the gods, are they all of a single mind on this? Are their any rebel deities that are not onboard? This seems like a rather cumbersome plot device, if the deities can be so thorough that they can erase everyone's mind, every scrap of paper with information written down on it on every planet, spaceship and space station, that kind of makes them seem nearly omnipotent to pull this off! How could the PCs ever find evidence if the gods are so thorough, and their are many gods, it seems unlikely they are all in agreement with this. Good, evil, and neutral gods! Not even all the gods of Krynn could pull this off!

There is at least one example of all the gods sharing a common goal. Specifically, the fight against Rovagug (and the planet that held his prison is now conspicuously absent).


Aren't we sort of missing the forest for the trees in this whole "what happened to the 7-9 level spells" thing?

Magic has changed completely. Does it even make sense to ask about specific spells of specific levels when there isn't even "arcane" magic or "divine" magic any more? Just magic.


Maybe spells have simply been consolidated across fewer levels, so level 8 and 9 Pathfinder spells are level 6 Starfinder spells.

Without vancian casting there is no need to have quite so many different spells available.


I don't see a good reason to do that, it doesn't serve any purpose other than to be different.


Streamlining the system. 9 levels of spells is really just a hold-over from 1st edition D&D.

And maybe, under a vancian system, a high level caster in a big dungeon with a strict DM might find themselves down to using 2nd level spells, but in a system where you can cast the same spell many times per session having so many different spells is unnessassary.

It also continues the trend in 3.5/Pathfinder to make 1st level casters less rubbish by giving them a greater selection and slightly more powerful spells.


1st level wizards can use their staffs as a weapon, or a simple weapon, or they can select feats that allow them to use any weapon on the equipment list, just pick the right feats for them.


interesting thought, roll the 7-9 spells into the lower levels and give more spells per day in the lower levels to increase flexibility. i could get behind that. Though i am still hoping that the casters have better class abilities other than spells per day.


Well then why don't you just go with Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition while your at it? I thought Pathfinder was for people who don't like their favorite RPG morphing into something unrecognizable, otherwise they would have stayed with D&D.


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Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Well then why don't you just go with Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition while your at it? I thought Pathfinder was for people who don't like their favorite RPG morphing into something unrecognizable, otherwise they would have stayed with D&D.

Starfinder isn't Pathfinder. If you expect it to be, you're going to be disappointed.

If it was just going to be completely compatible with Pathfinder, with better tech and a few new classes, it would just be a couple of Pathfinder books, not a new system.

Don't worry. Pathfinder's not going away or morphing into something unrecognisable. It'll still be right there. Still published. Still supported.

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