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Hi.
Says it in the title. Please help me build an overpowered Swashbuckler for Curse of the Crimson Throne.
Why overpowered?
Because DM thinks we are optimizers and veterans, to keep it challenging he is keeping us 3 levels below Level AP. We will end the AP at level 15, and keeping wealth below norm.
20 point buy, 2 traits. I want to go Human or Aasimar.
Thank you.
Are you married to the Swashbuckler? Because there are a number of archetypes that turn other classes into Swashbuckler+. The Virtuous Bravo (Paladin) or Daring Champion (Cavalier) for example.
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I know the DM and players very well, only NPC Tpks on the horizon.
Our last AP while there were lot of close calls, only 1 death and 1 petrification in the whole AP.
@Brew Bird, DM wants me to play a Swashbuckler as part of the Storyline, I always play Arcane so he wants me to step out of my comfort zone. And we already have a Brianne of Tarth type playing the Paladin.
Well, there are a couple different routes you could go with Swashbuckler even early on. Could you post what feats you're planning up to level 10?
Swashbuckler... Overpowered. Nope, can't make those go together. They don't fit.
Assuming you're going with a single-classed swashbuckler that far then the Devoted Muse prestige class might be best, on the basis that levels 11-15 of swashbuckler don't offer much that that prestige class doesn't.
If you're determined to be only a swashbuckler, or you won't be getting the prerequisite feats to enter devoted muse, then you might get the Signature Deed feat. Other useful feats might include Critical Focus and a critical feat or two.
Devoted Muse is fun. I made a fan dancer sneak attacker murderess one of those.
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I'd go Flying blade with Signature deed on Disrupting counter and a Fortuitous dagger. You will never be hit and reply to.every attack with 2 AoO's.
Also consider two levels of paladin after level 11 to boost your survivability.
Other things to look out for is getting a Swordmaster's flair, some way to reroll saves and for a halfling, Risky striker.
I also kind of agree with not optimizing to prove your DM right arms races are bad and he has way more ammo
I'd recommend swashtigator, where you take swashbuckler for your first level and then investigator for the rest.
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I'd say go ratfolk. They are small (+1 to hit and AC), have access to the scurrying swarmer feat (holy crap!), have access to the tailblade and possibly a bite for extra attacks, and favour int and dex.
If you're stuck on aasimar, I'd recommend a small-sized musetouched or emberkin. But I'd sooner go for a tiefling if I'd be making a swashbuckler.
For a ratfolk (middle age) 20pt build
str 8 (1pt, -2 -1)
dex 16 (7pts, +2 -1)
con 12 (3pts, -1)
int 16 (3pts, +2 +1)
wis 14 (3pts, +1)
cha 14 (3pts, +1)
Level 1: swashbuckler (inspired blade)
Get fencing grace at level 1
Level 2: Occultist (haunt collector)
This dip will get you a few spells (like magical weapon, for example), the ability to give any magical weapon a bane enchantment of your choice for a minute (legacy weapon), the ability to get +30' to your base speed for a minute at the cost of a swift action, and a +2 enhancement to str, dex, or con. At this level, this is obviously dex, but later it will probably become con. Oh, and you get to pick a second implement too... You don't really have focus points left, though, so probably go for abjuration, to have all healing spells on your spell list for wands and such.
Last but not least, this dip will boost fort and will, the weak saves of your level 1. Also, being able to cast bane on a ranged weapon makes you less melee-dependant
Level 3: Alchemist (vivisectionist, internal alchemist)
Get the scurrying swarmer feat to pretty much always flank if you're near friends (and start thinking about future teamwork feats)
This dip will give you +1d6 sneak attack (pretty much always), a mutagen (dex mutagen gives +2 to hit, +2 dam, and +4 AC). As a bonus, you can now start make a crapload of potions of level 1 spells for all kinds of uses at the cheap cheap price of 25 gp per potion. Oh, and you can hold your breath for 12 hours! Isn't that nice!?
This is assuming that you're using fractional BAB, where 1 occultist / 1 alchemist results in +1 BAB. If you're not using that, you might prefer a level of brawler (mutagenic mauler or snakebite striker) here.
Level 4-7: run up that swashbuckler to being a critical master at level 5!
Of course, get the works, like weapon specialization. But don't forget those teamwork feats! Outflank might help you out a lot!
Level 8: show that haunt collector some love and bring it to level 2.
Depending on whether you don't hit others enough or you get hit too much yourself, get divination or abjuration. But whichever you choose, fill it up with the champion spirit and your 2 leftover focus points. This will give you a flat +2 to damage (that does double on crits) and 2/day +1 bonus to attack, damage, and other stuff for a swift action. Plus the base focus power of the chosen implement (you might even want to make it another transmutation implement, just for more bane). Oh, and by the way, it will give you another spell option.
Level 9+
Well, from here on I'd say it has a lot to do with what you want.
Daring champion means a lot of damage, especially if you select the order of the flame. Also, since you work with teamwork feats, it helps to be able to share them :)
If at level 5 or 7 you've chosen dodge, you can now take mobility at level 9, along with a level of self perfection psychic, taking the 'kinetic enhancement' psi-tech instead of a phrenic amplification, and then take some levels of duelist. You'll go armorless, but with great CMD, probably wanting to take a level of scaled fist monk to add cha to the fun. But... this is more whacky than overpowered.
I always thought the Swashbuckler should get access to some kind of 'Skewer' or 'Impale' ability!?
I know the DM and players very well, only NPC Tpks on the horizon.
Our last AP while there were lot of close calls, only 1 death and 1 petrification in the whole AP.
@Brew Bird, DM wants me to play a Swashbuckler as part of the Storyline, I always play Arcane so he wants me to step out of my comfort zone. And we already have a Brianne of Tarth type playing the Paladin.
Your DM is totally Gimping you with one of the weakest classes in Pathfinder.
Swashbuckler... Overpowered. Nope, can't make those go together. They don't fit.
Dead on truth right there.
If you must make it work then Die in Session 1 so you can play a different class that can reach good levels of power. But Swashbuckler in my book is right there barely edging out above the Core Rogue on levels of Power. Which is pretty bad.
I thought Swashbucklers were quite good...what have I missed?!
My +1 Answering starknives beg to differ! I can parry and riposte attacks with an effective +5 enhancement bonus for the cost of only a +2, Fencer gives a trait bonus effectively then to AC and the most important attacks. I'm 4/4 at being the prime damage dealer in scenarios played across levels 4-7.
Nice but your saves really suck, Charmed life typically only works 1 out of 7 attempts so its not reliable, and Precision damage as your main source of damage is not reliable compared to say a Bloodrager.
You must have just been playing scenarios with enemies not immune to precision damage. Not to mention PFS is not overly challenging.
I thought Swashbucklers were quite good...what have I missed?!
The saves for a frontliner being only Reflex. Most reflex saves can be counter with high HP anyways from most Martial classes.
Precision Damage being your main source of Damage. It can be negated quiet a bit.
Charmed Life hardly ever works.
More than 5 levels in the class are completely lack luster and your better off multiclassing for power.
Swashbuckler is a nice 1 level dip for some classes but Mechanically it is a very poor stand alone class.
I thought Swashbucklers were quite good...what have I missed?!
If it's a problem that can be solved by swordfighting against something whose reach equals your reach and isn't immune to precision damage, or by being charming/scary at it then swashbucklers are great.
If it's anything else at all, then they don't really have ready options, so you're going to sit around a lot waiting for other people to fix it for you. I'm playing one in a Mythic game now and in the last session I was teleported to a different continent twice, and had to wait for someone with greater teleport to come fetch me. I'm nigh impossible to drop in a fair fight though.
It's a fun and flavorful class, it's just that it has a very limited bag of tricks.
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Precision Damage being your main source of Damage. It can be negated quiet a bit.
This, at least, is bumpkis. I'm playing a 10th level swashbuckler in Iron Gods right now, and yes, precise strike adds +10 to my damage, but even without it my damage is 1d6 + 19 (+6 Dex, +2 weapon, +2 Weapon Spec, +3 avenger's target, +6 Power Attack). That's still plenty of damage I can lay out.
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I would do halfling Ispired blade (can have reach with the blue scarf), use Fencing Grace, Risky Striker and Power Attack or Piranha Strike (if you have the effortless lace). I would combo your reach with the following feats/weapons Combat Reflexes and One Handed Weapon trick, fortuitous weapon property. You will be an Attacks of opportunity machine.
Iron Will/Indomitable faith to make up for that garbage will save.
Add more weapon focus/specialization/great versions when wanted.
Those are my tips.
Precision Damage being your main source of Damage. It can be negated quiet a bit.This, at least, is bumpkis. I'm playing a 10th level swashbuckler in Iron Gods right now, and yes, precise strike adds +10 to my damage, but even without it my damage is 1d6 + 19 (+6 Dex, +2 weapon, +2 Weapon Spec, +3 avenger's target, +6 Power Attack). That's still plenty of damage I can lay out.
Well My last Bloodrager ended at level 12 and was doing 1d6+30 a swing with 2 handing a Scimitar. Every bit of the critical damage IS multiplied on a critical. So 1 out of 3 swings typically is 2d6+60. He was about 60,000gp UNDER wealth by level as well.
So...no 1d6+19 at full WBL is not doing as well as other martial classes. Which means the swashbuckler IS weaker mechanically.
You might be ok with it and feel it preforms well enough. But how many failed saves Crippled you so far? Fortitude verse poisons, disease, and other critter abilities, Will saves verses Save or Dies. I bet you did well on the Reflex saves to keep from taking an extra 10-30 damage. Heck you don't even get evasion till 11th level. Just yuck...
If your DM wants you to play a Swashbuckler and would probably frown on multiclassing, how about a Flying Blade with Divine Fighting Technique: Desna's Shooting Star, and the Steadfast Personality feat to shore up the Will save (IIRC very few Will save effects are not mind-affecting)?
Probably works best as a Halfling. Small size gets you another +1 AC and +1 To-Hit at the expense of -1 weapon damage (big deal) and -1 CMB/CMD. You get the DEX/CHA bonus (you still need DEX to qualify for ranged feats), and can further improve your bad saves with Fate's Favored + Adaptable Luck on top of a +2 racial bonus against Fear.
Well My last Bloodrager ended at level 12 and was doing 1d6+30 a swing with 2 handing a Scimitar. Every bit of the critical damage IS multiplied on a critical. So 1 out of 3 swings typically is 2d6+60. He was about 60,000gp UNDER wealth by level as well.
Just curious, what modifiers are you adding to reach +30 damage?
I'd say go ratfolk. They are small (+1 to hit and AC), have access to the scurrying swarmer feat (holy crap!), have access to the tailblade and possibly a bite for extra attacks, and favour int and dex.
If you're stuck on aasimar, I'd recommend a small-sized musetouched or emberkin. But I'd sooner go for a tiefling if I'd be making a swashbuckler.
For a ratfolk (middle age) 20pt build
str 8 (1pt, -2 -1)
dex 16 (7pts, +2 -1)
con 12 (3pts, -1)
int 16 (3pts, +2 +1)
wis 14 (3pts, +1)
cha 14 (3pts, +1)Level 1: swashbuckler (inspired blade)
Get fencing grace at level 1Level 2: Occultist (haunt collector)
This dip will get you a few spells (like magical weapon, for example), the ability to give any magical weapon a bane enchantment of your choice for a minute (legacy weapon), the ability to get +30' to your base speed for a minute at the cost of a swift action, and a +2 enhancement to str, dex, or con. At this level, this is obviously dex, but later it will probably become con. Oh, and you get to pick a second implement too... You don't really have focus points left, though, so probably go for abjuration, to have all healing spells on your spell list for wands and such.
Last but not least, this dip will boost fort and will, the weak saves of your level 1. Also, being able to cast bane on a ranged weapon makes you less melee-dependantLevel 3: Alchemist (vivisectionist, internal alchemist)
Get the scurrying swarmer feat to pretty much always flank if you're near friends (and start thinking about future teamwork feats)
This dip will give you +1d6 sneak attack (pretty much always), a mutagen (dex mutagen gives +2 to hit, +2 dam, and +4 AC). As a bonus, you can now start make a crapload of potions of level 1 spells for all kinds of uses at the cheap cheap price of 25 gp per potion. Oh, and you can hold your breath for 12 hours! Isn't that nice!?
This is assuming that you're using fractional BAB, where 1 occultist / 1 alchemist results in...
Looks like a fun build.
Well My last Bloodrager ended at level 12 and was doing 1d6+30 a swing with 2 handing a Scimitar. Every bit of the critical damage IS multiplied on a critical. So 1 out of 3 swings typically is 2d6+60. He was about 60,000gp UNDER wealth by level as well.Just curious, what modifiers are you adding to reach +30 damage?
Power attack 2 handed= +12, Arcane strike= +3, Weapon= +5 (Greater magic weapon 3 +Furious=+5), Strength of 24 +10 for 2 handed attacks= +30
Improved Critical in the Build
Wand of Bless weapon (Cause UMD from dangerously curious...Maxed it)
Easy-peezy Bromego.
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Precision Damage being your main source of Damage. It can be negated quiet a bit.This, at least, is bumpkis. I'm playing a 10th level swashbuckler in Iron Gods right now, and yes, precise strike adds +10 to my damage, but even without it my damage is 1d6 + 19 (+6 Dex, +2 weapon, +2 Weapon Spec, +3 avenger's target, +6 Power Attack). That's still plenty of damage I can lay out.Well My last Bloodrager ended at level 12 and was doing 1d6+30 a swing with 2 handing a Scimitar. Every bit of the critical damage IS multiplied on a critical. So 1 out of 3 swings typically is 2d6+60. He was about 60,000gp UNDER wealth by level as well.
So...no 1d6+19 at full WBL is not doing as well as other martial classes. Which means the swashbuckler IS weaker mechanically.
None of which is a response to what I actually said. You said that precise strike is the "main source of damage." It's not. It constitutes less than 1/3 of damage total.
However, you're miscalculating the "weakness" of precise strike not multiplying on a critical. Because while a typical martial is waiting for a critical hit, the swashbuckler opens every combat with a double-value precise strike (making my attack, for instance, 1d6 + 39), and then I get back the panache point whenever I do crit next, and I can do it again. Mathematically, it's pretty close to a wash.*
On the other hand... what's your bloodrager's AC?
You might be ok with it and feel it preforms well enough. But how many failed saves Crippled you so far? Fortitude verse poisons, disease, and other critter abilities, Will saves verses Save or Dies. I bet you did well on the Reflex saves to keep from taking an extra 10-30 damage. Heck you don't even get evasion till 11th level. Just yuck...
Actually, the only save that's seriously screwed me over was a failed Reflex save, because everyone can roll a 1. (Tried to dive through a electricity trap. Got zapped, GM rolled near-max damage, and suddenly I needed a breath of life. Ah well, it happens.) Otherwise, judicious use of Charmed Life - and I just got a spiffy new cape of daring deeds, which is even more fun - and not tanking my stats in the first place has kept me out of trouble. Which is not to say that the swashbuckler's saves aren't an issue, but they are something you can plan for and deal with, if you actually make the effort.
Precision Damage being your main source of Damage. It can be negated quiet a bit.This, at least, is bumpkis. I'm playing a 10th level swashbuckler in Iron Gods right now, and yes, precise strike adds +10 to my damage, but even without it my damage is 1d6 + 19 (+6 Dex, +2 weapon, +2 Weapon Spec, +3 avenger's target, +6 Power Attack). That's still plenty of damage I can lay out.Well My last Bloodrager ended at level 12 and was doing 1d6+30 a swing with 2 handing a Scimitar. Every bit of the critical damage IS multiplied on a critical. So 1 out of 3 swings typically is 2d6+60. He was about 60,000gp UNDER wealth by level as well.
So...no 1d6+19 at full WBL is not doing as well as other martial classes. Which means the swashbuckler IS weaker mechanically.
None of which is a response to what I actually said. You said that precise strike is the "main source of damage." It's not. It constitutes less than 1/3 of damage total.
However, you're miscalculating the "weakness" of precise strike not multiplying on a critical. Because while a typical martial is waiting for a critical hit, the swashbuckler opens every combat with a double-value precise strike (making my attack, for instance, 1d6 + 39), and then I get back the panache point whenever I do crit next, and I can do it again. Mathematically, it's pretty close to a wash.*
On the other hand... what's your bloodrager's AC?
The main problem is there are a lot of Enemies immune to either Precision damage and/or Critical. It is not uncommon either. While other classes can keep swinging and see much less of a drop in offensive power. Heck anything with fortification can throw off a swashbuckler. These factors really hurt mid-late game when all those things start coming up on more of a regular.
The bloodragers AC usually is crap, but AC is not too important as much as Layered defenses. I was rocking a 20 AC while raging. But Also had Displacement + Mirror Image, DR, Turns some damage into Non-lethal paired up with Fast Healing, Protector Familiar Damage split, Resistance to energies, and Come and Get me. IF they managed hit me it was for very little where I could fast heal most of it back and my spell storing Armor returned the kindness with a Rime Frigid Touch for Entangled+ Staggered condition, or a Vampiric Touch to re up on Temporary HP.
So the swashbuckler may have an OK AC...it's class lacks the ability to layer it's defenses beyond just AC. Unless you take Dangerously Curious and make UMD a class skill. But even then your spending gold where as Bloodrager, Paladin, Warpriest, Hunter, Ranger, and Magus do not have too because it is built into the class via Spellcasting or Su abilities. In a magical world the guy without magic is truly at a disadvantage. It is why swashbuckler is low on the power scale down there with Core rogues. I honestly can not believe this is even a disagreement because mechanically you know it is weaker mechanically than many of the other melee frontliners.
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It's really just oozes, swarms, and elementals that are immune to crits and precision damage in pathfinder. The vast majority of creatures that were immune in 3.5 no longer are. Yes those three types are going to be a challenge for rouges and swashbucklers, but it by no means cripples the class. And the fort save can be handed with twist away(dip for evasion if you need it sooner) and the will saves can be shored up with steadfast personality.
It's really just oozes, swarms, and elementals that are immune to crits and precision damage in pathfinder. The vast majority of creatures that were immune in 3.5 no longer are. Yes those three types are going to be a challenge for rouges and swashbucklers, but it by no means cripples the class. And the fort save can be handed with twist away(dip for evasion if you need it sooner) and the will saves can be shored up with steadfast personality.
Lets not take half the list Imbicatus.
Aeon (subtype): “Immunity to cold, poison, and critical hits.“
Elemental (subtype): Elementals are “not subject to critical hits or flanking. Does not take additional damage from precision-based attacks, such as sneak attack.“
Incorporeal (subtype): “An incorporeal creature is immune to critical hits (unless the attacks are made using a weapon with the ghost touch special weapon quality.)“
Ooze (Type): <Oozes are…> “not subject to critical hits or flanking. Does not take additional damage from precision-based attacks (such as sneak attack.)“
Protean (subtype): (50% chance to ignore, see below*)
Swarm (Type): “A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernible anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits.“Precision-Based Damage (like Sneak Attack)
The following creature types (or subtypes) do not take additional damage from precision-based attacks (such as sneak attack):
Elemental (subtype): “<An elemental…> does not take additional damage from precision-based attacks (such as sneak attack.)“
Incorporeal (subtype): “An incorporeal creature is immune to precision-based damage (such as sneak attack damage) unless the attacks are made using a weapon with the ghost touch special weapon quality.“
Ooze (Type): “<An ooze is…> does not take additional damage from precision-based attacks (such as sneak attack.)“
Protean (subtype): (50% chance to ignore, see below*)
That is more than just 3 types of enemies as you would so believe. Also Fortification also can be problematic. I had a swashbuckler in a game I played in and he just sucked hard against the fighter in Fortification armor. Also some other things out there gain 50% or better immunities to critical and sneak attacks.
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Aeon and protean are exceedingly rare, as is fortification armor. I always have ghost salt for incorporeals, so that's not an issue. So again, the main three creature types immune to precision damage and crits are oozes, swarms, and elementals. Swarms suck for every martial, and most oozes do as well.
It's a concern, but if you're prepared for it it's not that big of a deal.
Aeon and protean are exceedingly rare, as is fortification armor. I always have ghost salt for incorporeals, so that's not an issue. So again, the main three creature types immune to precision damage and crits are oozes, swarms, and elementals. Swarms suck for every martial, and most oozes do as well.
It's a concern, but if you're prepared for it it's not that big of a deal.
So Ghost Salts Stop the Immunities to Critical and allows Precision damage to work on Incorporeal targets? Because I do not get that from reading Ghost Salts.
This gritty alchemical powder is made from exotic minerals mixed with an infusion crafted from the ectoplasmic remains of destroyed incorporeal undead. When rubbed onto a weapon that is then placed over a hot flame for a full round, ghost salt melts and forms a temporary coating on the weapon. The blanching gives the weapon the ability to do full damage to incorporeal creatures, even if the weapon itself is non-magical. An application of ghost salt remains effective until the weapon makes a successful attack. Each dose of weapon blanch can coat one weapon or up to 10 pieces of ammunition. Only one kind of weapon blanch can be on a weapon at one time.
Because I See NOTHING in there about it allowing you to Crit or apply Precision based damage.
Also it works for 1 strike or 10 pieces of Ammo (But we are talking Melee here). Also takes a while to apply it so doing it mid combat is not a viable thing. Having a weapon ready to go is fine but lets hope that 1d6+19 is enough to kill it, without needing another salt. (we both know it isn't).
Lastly Imbicatus are you saying A swashbuckler is equally equiped as the other melee classes? That they are not Mechanically worst off than most other Melee/Frontline Classes?
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I'm saying swashbuckler is a decent martial class if you want to use a light weapon and light armor. He has some very good tricks, and the ability to put out good damage (not the best), and it's stylish. I would likely multiclass if I was going to play one, but as a single class there are worse options, and they are no where near as bad as a core rogue.
As for the ghost salt, it does full damage against incorporeal creatures. Full damage implies that all sources of damage are included. And it's really a low level concern, because every martial character should have a backup ghost touch weapon when they can afford it anyway.
But both of you prefer multiclassing out of Swashbuckler...meaning the Payoff is greater by changing classes. Pathfinder tends to not be as Multiclass happy as 3.5 but in both these last statements...It's an ok class and I usually multiclass out of it.
I have used the 1 level dip before plenty of times but as a whole class it is pretty sad that it is stronger as a dip than as a stand alone class.
Aeon and protean are exceedingly rare, as is fortification armor. I always have ghost salt for incorporeals, so that's not an issue. So again, the main three creature types immune to precision damage and crits are oozes, swarms, and elementals. Swarms suck for every martial, and most oozes do as well.
It's a concern, but if you're prepared for it it's not that big of a deal.
So Ghost Salts Stop the Immunities to Critical and allows Precision damage to work on Incorporeal targets? Because I do not get that from reading Ghost Salts.
This gritty alchemical powder is made from exotic minerals mixed with an infusion crafted from the ectoplasmic remains of destroyed incorporeal undead. When rubbed onto a weapon that is then placed over a hot flame for a full round, ghost salt melts and forms a temporary coating on the weapon. The blanching gives the weapon the ability to do full damage to incorporeal creatures, even if the weapon itself is non-magical. An application of ghost salt remains effective until the weapon makes a successful attack. Each dose of weapon blanch can coat one weapon or up to 10 pieces of ammunition. Only one kind of weapon blanch can be on a weapon at one time.Because I See NOTHING in there about it allowing you to Crit or apply Precision based damage.
Also it works for 1 strike or 10 pieces of Ammo (But we are talking Melee here). Also takes a while to apply it so doing it mid combat is not a viable thing. Having a weapon ready to go is fine but lets hope that 1d6+19 is enough to kill it, without needing another salt. (we both know it isn't).
Lastly Imbicatus are you saying A swashbuckler is equally equiped as the other melee classes? That they are not Mechanically worst off than most other Melee/Frontline Classes?
You might want to read what you posted earlier:
Incorporeal (subtype): “An incorporeal creature is immune to critical hits (unless the attacks are made using a weapon with the ghost touch special weapon quality.)“
Sure, an incredibly strict GM could read that weapons with Ghost Salt applied do not count as Ghost Touch for the purpose of bypassing incorporeal immunity to precision damage, but that would certainly be against RAI, which should have them the same for all purposes, since they functionally act the same in almost every way save duration.
What I'm seeing in this topic is a lot of "Swashbucklers aren't spellcasters so they suck"
Which is just an absurd metric to compare a fully Martial Class against. Why yes, the Swashbuckler only has the normal 2 types of defense available to every Martial Class except the Barbarian, and that is only because they trade away one of the two for DR. No, they cannot cast greater teleport or set up Mirror Images because that isn't who they are.
Classes in pathfinder are like...tables set up by age at a family reunion. The tables aren't equal, and like minded people sit around each one. Swashbuckler sits at the same table as the Cavalier, Fighter, Gunslinger, Brawler, Rogue, and Slayer. Then Monk, Barbarian, and Vigilante get their own table for "Martial Classes with Willsaves!". Then you have Bloodrager, Ranger, and Paladin doing their own thing at the 4th level casters table. Then you have 6th level casters. Then you have 9th level casters. And lastly you have the Medium and Kineticist doing their own things standing awkwardly around opposite sides of the bar.
Trying to judge a class outside of their table is silly, because you are comparing apples to oranges. Yes, the Swashbuckler has poor saves. That is a weakness, how do you get around it? Feats and archetypes. Play a Noble Fencer, that basically gives you full Will save progression since the only Will Saves that will really kill you are Mind Affecting Effects. If that isn't enough, you gain 5 bonus feats so you can spend a few of your level-based feats on shoring up your weaknesses. Take Steadfast Personality and Great Fortitude, heck grab Iron Will too if you are that paranoid.
If that still isn't enough, then invest properly. Your AC is naturally great, invest in a better cloak of resistance before you improve your armor. Play a halfling, whatever floats your boat.
The thing about the saves is bothersome for two reasons. The first is that while you do have a shore up saves feature, it just competes with the glut of other swift/immediate actions you need to take. This is particularly irksome considering they just rolled out a Paladin archetype that gets all the best stuff the Swashbuckler gets (save for early access improved critical) except divine grace instead of charmed life.
This leads into the second problem in that the Swashbuckler is unusual in that it's the class where archetypes of other classes that borrow Swashbuckler features (notably Daring Champion Cavaliers and Virtuous Bravo Paladins) seem to do better at the class's schtick than the class itself does. This seems kind of like a tacit admission by developers that the Swashbuckler is a really flavorful class with some neat mechanics but the total product is underwhelming, so let's export that flavor and mechanics to classes with a better overall chassis.
The thing about the saves is bothersome for two reasons. The first is that while you do have a shore up saves feature, it just competes with the glut of other swift/immediate actions you need to take. This is particularly irksome considering they just rolled out a Paladin archetype that gets all the best stuff the Swashbuckler gets (save for early access improved critical) except divine grace instead of charmed life.
This leads into the second problem in that the Swashbuckler is unusual in that it's the class where archetypes of other classes that borrow Swashbuckler features (notably Daring Champion Cavaliers and Virtuous Bravo Paladins) seem to do better at the class's schtick than the class itself does. This seems kind of like a tacit admission by developers that the Swashbuckler is a really flavorful class with some neat mechanics but the total product is underwhelming, so let's export that flavor and mechanics to classes with a better overall chassis.
YES!
The thing about the saves is bothersome for two reasons. The first is that while you do have a shore up saves feature, it just competes with the glut of other swift/immediate actions you need to take. This is particularly irksome considering they just rolled out a Paladin archetype that gets all the best stuff the Swashbuckler gets (save for early access improved critical) except divine grace instead of charmed life.
This leads into the second problem in that the Swashbuckler is unusual in that it's the class where archetypes of other classes that borrow Swashbuckler features (notably Daring Champion Cavaliers and Virtuous Bravo Paladins) seem to do better at the class's schtick than the class itself does. This seems kind of like a tacit admission by developers that the Swashbuckler is a really flavorful class with some neat mechanics but the total product is underwhelming, so let's export that flavor and mechanics to classes with a better overall chassis.
I do not disagree with you, the Swashbuckler mechanics are certainly better suited as additions to other chassis and they are 100% in constant competition for their swift action. However, as stated before in this topic, Charmed Life is just not good. So swap it out and that gets rid of an entire problem. Noble Fencer is, of course, marvelous for this as it gives you a circumstantial Will Save bonus.
Again though, Comparing the Swashbuckler with the Paladin will always result in the Paladin coming out on top because Paladins are heavily stacked kits. The Paladin getting a Swash-kit is not unexpected, but expecting the Swashbuckler to ever match the paladin most certainly is. Just like trying to make a Fighter compete with a Paladin, you are going to have a bad time.
While the paladin-swash archetype is a bit of a slap in the face, from a build design standpoint it makes sense. Most players just dip Swashbuckler anyway, so making archetypes available helps removing the temptation to Multiclass. Paizo has a big thing about archetypes over multiclassing, not sure why, but there you go. Its in their design philosophy.
It sort of seems like if via an archetype you added swashbuckler features to more or less any class except fighter, gunslinger, chained rogue, and chained monk (maybe) you'd end up with something better than the swashbuckler (probably not 1/2 BAB casters, unless you ended up with something bloodrageresque.)
That sort of suggests that if we view these sorts of hybrid archetypes as ideally finding a midpoint between the power levels of the two things we're mashing up, the 'Buckler is very much at the low end of the spectrum.
This leads into the second problem in that the Swashbuckler is unusual in that it's the class where archetypes of other classes that borrow Swashbuckler features (notably Daring Champion Cavaliers and Virtuous Bravo Paladins) seem to do better at the class's schtick than the class itself does. This seems kind of like a tacit admission by developers that the Swashbuckler is a really flavorful class with some neat mechanics but the total product is underwhelming, so let's export that flavor and mechanics to classes with a better overall chassis.
It used to be even worse when Daring Champion still got Opportune Parry and Riposte, and the Swashbuckler arcana for Magi were still functional.
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But both of you prefer multiclassing out of Swashbuckler...meaning the Payoff is greater by changing classes. Pathfinder tends to not be as Multiclass happy as 3.5 but in both these last statements...It's an ok class and I usually multiclass out of it.
That's because the deed system is about the worst designed overall class feature in the entire game. Swashbuckler is not as bad as Gunslinger, because your most used deed at least scales with level, but the class design is still atrocious.
Almost every Pathfinder class requires you to make character shaping choices daily (e.g. spell preparation), during level up (e.g. rage powers), and/or during character creation (e.g. domains). The only character shaping choices Fighter*, Monk*, Gunslinger, Brawler, and Swashbuckler make could also be made by a Commoner (like skills, feats, or which specific weapon to use).
Not only does this lack of character shaping choices make most characters created with those classes often rather similar, it also effects versatility and power level. That's because fixed class features are generally mediocre (or bad), while selectable class features (which includes spells) have both good and bad options (this is a mandatory design principle to avoid having everyone with that class be super powerful). As a result, you can make a Wizard good or bad by making good or bad character shaping choices, but you can't make a class good if there are no character shaping choices. **
*) Fighter got such choices with AAT and AWT, while Monk got such choices with UnMonk's Ki Powers and Style Strikes.
**) I don't count feats, skills, and equipment because it should be obvious that options that literally every class can take have to be relatively weak (otherwise almost every character would take them, cf. Leadership for what happens when this rule is broken).
Trying to judge a class outside of their table is silly, because you are comparing apples to oranges.
You've just admitted that the only reason not to compare them is because you don't want to have them compared. After all, it's totally possible to compare apples and oranges, you just need to find a common point (like for instance the amount of vitamin C contained). The same is necessary to compare any two things! You cannot possible say which of two cars is better if you don't define a point of comparison (like top speed, boot space, fuel efficiency, or how well the color goes together with your favourite purse).
So yeah, comparison is totally possible. Even if we'd include a (a bit subjective) "martial-y feel" criterion, the only reason not to include all classes with no more than 4th level spells is because a comparison would force one to acknowledge that their favourite thing isn't the best thing ever. It's not like a ranger doesn't feel like a martial character, after all.