"effects that augment an unarmed strike"?


Rules Questions


For Ascetic Style, what are "effects that augment an unarmed strike"?
1) Divine Fighting Technique (irori)?
2) Weapon Finesse?
3) Guided Hand?
4) Cestus causing unarmed to deal piercing?


Thoughts so far:
1) By RAW I can see at least DFT (irori) working, and by RAI I can see that would also be the intent from the designer:

Quote:

Looking at my notes, I intended for Ascetic Style to work different then how it did. I wrote this:

“While using this style and wielding the chosen weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as any effects that augment an unarmed strike.”

But what I wanted to write was this:

“While using this style and wielding the chosen weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as any feat that augments an unarmed strike.”

2) Weapon finesse with unarmed strike does augment an unarmed strike to make it use dex for attack rolls, so by RAW wouldnt that mean I would get dex to hit with the ascetic weapon? (Plus its a feat, so the designer's RAI seems to fit, the only issue is that it doesnt specifically say "unarmed strike" in the feat text.)

3) Same as weapon finesse?

4) By RAW it works, but it isnt a feat so by RAI (according to the designer) it shouldnt. Plus it doesnt make sense from a logic perspective that a weapon's damage would deal a different type based off of the gloves you wear.

(I know applying logic or realism to pathfinder doesnt always work, and i'm also aware that the designer is not a rules source, but it's all I could find on the subject regarding the intent of the phrase.)

So, in summary - from what I can find; the RAW and RAI seem to support 1, 2 & 3, whereas the intent was for it not to support 4. (and things similar to 4)

Does anyone disagree & are there other sources that give contradictory information?


That wording is a copy of part of what once was included in the feral combat training feat. That feat was erratted to remove the phrase since it basically made a huge mess of a bunch of rules and was impossible to figure out. Ascetic style came out right as that ruling came down, and as I recall the feats author stated it was probably an error to include it in light of the fct change.


Calth wrote:
That wording is a copy of part of what once was included in the feral combat training feat. That feat was erratted to remove the phrase since it basically made a huge mess of a bunch of rules and was impossible to figure out. Ascetic style came out right as that ruling came down, and as I recall the feats author stated it was probably an error to include it in light of the fct change.

You can read his thoughts in the link I provided :)


1 Divine Fighting Technique (irori) = should work

2 Wpn Finesse = does not work with Ascetic Style. Weapon finesse works with an unarmed strikes only because it is a light weapon. If your unarmed strike suddenly became the equivalent of 2h weapon weapon finesse would no longer work.

3 Guided Hand = should work if your deity's favored weapon is unarmed.

4 cestus = does work because cestus are part of the monk fighter weapon group. Unless the feat or class ability changes the damage type (like some style feats) it would still do piercing damage.


Calth wrote:
[Feral Combat Training] made a huge mess of a bunch of rules and was impossible to figure out.

The only problematic thing's I heared about (I joined afterwards) was whether the scaling damage works with it (which was confirmed by FAQ), and that some idiots made up their own wording to make it work as a virtual size increase instead of working like Warpriest's Sacred Weapon.

SillyString wrote:
For Ascetic Style, what are "effects that augment an unarmed strike"?

First, what the author intended is completely irrelevant, the feats are as they are printed. The PDT has overruled explicit author intend more than once, proving this. Also, the author contradicted himself, and got multiple things wrong on his blog post, so we don't really know what was actually envisioned.

Guided hand would work for followers of Irori. Likewise for Divine Fighting Technique, which is so mind-bogglingly bad you should absolutely never under any circumstance select it if you don't imediately fulfill the advanced benefit (and even than it's rather weak!). There are argument for and against Weapon Finesse, you'd need to ask your GM. Cestus as chosen weapon (or with 5 levels in Monk, or Weapon Training (Monk group)) would do almost everything UAS does but with piercing damage, yes.

Copy and pasted from another thread:

­
As written, Ascetic Style works like this for a Monk:

Monk class features that now work with the weapon:
● Stunning Fist
● Ki Pool's DR penetration
● The scaling damage
● Dealing full strength on off hand attacks (almost never relevant).

Other things that now work with the weapon:
● Feats like that enhance US, e.g. Nightmare Fist
● Feats like that have IUS as a prereq, e.g. Hex Striker
● Traits that enhance US, e.g. Bullied
● Items that enhance US, e.g. Amulet of Mighty Fist (multiple enhancement bonuses don't stack, but other magic weapon abilities can be stacked with them)
● Spells that enhance US, e.g. Magic Fang

Monk class features that do not work with Ascetic Style:
● The extra attack from Ki Pool
● Style Strikes
● Ki Blocker, One Touch, and Quivering Palm
● Flurry of Blows (only relevant for tri-point double-edged sword and urumi).
­ All of these are 'unlocked' by Ascetic Form, though.

Thing I'm not sure about:
● The ability to deal nonlethal damage without penalty (on one hand, that basically comes from the general rules for US, but on the other hand, it it explicitly mentioned in the Unarmed Strike class feature)
● Weapon Finesse
● Effects that only apply to natural attacks - the "is treated as (...) a natural weapon [blah]" line does make US better, but only indirectly.

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