Paladin fighter dip


Advice


So am playing the party Paladin in the Wrath of the Righteous AP (no spoilers please, i have not played it before) and soon i would like to take a few level dips into a fighter for some extra feats. My question is if the Aura of Righteousness at paladin 7th level (dr/evil, immunity to compulsion spells and similar spell resistance aura to companions)is worth more than one extra bonus feat and one level of Weapon Training?

Grand Lodge

I've found that dipping as a paladin is usually not worth it. You just get so much good stuff every level that a feat is hardly worth it in the long run.

Sovereign Court

I agree, the trade off isn't worth it.

The levels in fighter also weaken your smite attacks.


The feats are probably not gonna give you as much milage as your class features at full power. Paladins can be a little bit tight on feats but you should generally have enough to get by and you'll get a lot more out of lay on hands and smite being at full strength and your auras than you will from getting a few extra feats and a +1 to hit and damage with one weapon group.


Full paladin all the way. Unless you're an archer you shouldn't be that feat starved.


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retrain to tempered champion it trades spells for bonus feats and counts your paladin level as your fighter level for prerequisits


Xunriina wrote:
So am playing the party Paladin in the Wrath of the Righteous AP (no spoilers please, i have not played it before) and soon i would like to take a few level dips into a fighter for some extra feats. My question is if the Aura of Righteousness at paladin 7th level (dr/evil, immunity to compulsion spells and similar spell resistance aura to companions)is worth more than one extra bonus feat and one level of Weapon Training?

No the dip into fighter is not worth it.

This is not "Spoiler" as it is Public Knowledge. This Campaign goes to level 20. You will reach capstone abilities and you will want your Smite damage and your Bond to max out.

What feats are you thinking you need other than Power Attack?

Maybe you explain your build and we can help you come up with a build that works in what you are wanting to do.


Louise Bishop wrote:
Xunriina wrote:
So am playing the party Paladin in the Wrath of the Righteous AP (no spoilers please, i have not played it before) and soon i would like to take a few level dips into a fighter for some extra feats. My question is if the Aura of Righteousness at paladin 7th level (dr/evil, immunity to compulsion spells and similar spell resistance aura to companions)is worth more than one extra bonus feat and one level of Weapon Training?

No the dip into fighter is not worth it.

This is not "Spoiler" as it is Public Knowledge. This Campaign goes to level 20. You will reach capstone abilities and you will want your Smite damage and your Bond to max out.

What feats are you thinking you need other than Power Attack?

Maybe you explain your build and we can help you come up with a build that works in what you are wanting to do.

I am focusing my Paladin for a combat role with much less emphasis on magic usage. I was thinking of taking small dip into the fighter to get bonus feats to help get racial feats (Aasimar character) that would be helpful to a paladin while using the main feat spots and mythic abilities (champion path) for survivablity and combat. Plus moving at normal speed in medium armor (heavy armor counting as medium when made of mithral) would help him be able to get around the battlefield more effectively, as the mythic ability for armor does not grant this, only negating ACP and Max dex modifiers. I haven't gone to level 20 (max character level i played was at around 16th level) so i have never gotten to use the capstone abilities, and the Paladin's seems a bit lacking. Trying to banish, which at this point i would think most of the baddies you fight will easily shrug it off with a DC of 20 and i would assume many would have a normal SR significant enough to bypass the DC with a very low roll, if needing one at all, and then that ending the Smite. Of course you do not need to try to banish, but it doesn't offer any bonuses if you forgo the attempt at banishment.The extra damage from the Smite ability is of course great, but i would think that the 2 bonus feats and faster movement in armor would be more universally used.

Sovereign Court

What fighter archetype are you using?j


Xunriina wrote:
Louise Bishop wrote:
Xunriina wrote:
So am playing the party Paladin in the Wrath of the Righteous AP (no spoilers please, i have not played it before) and soon i would like to take a few level dips into a fighter for some extra feats. My question is if the Aura of Righteousness at paladin 7th level (dr/evil, immunity to compulsion spells and similar spell resistance aura to companions)is worth more than one extra bonus feat and one level of Weapon Training?

No the dip into fighter is not worth it.

This is not "Spoiler" as it is Public Knowledge. This Campaign goes to level 20. You will reach capstone abilities and you will want your Smite damage and your Bond to max out.

What feats are you thinking you need other than Power Attack?

Maybe you explain your build and we can help you come up with a build that works in what you are wanting to do.

I am focusing my Paladin for a combat role with much less emphasis on magic usage. I was thinking of taking small dip into the fighter to get bonus feats to help get racial feats (Aasimar character) that would be helpful to a paladin while using the main feat spots and mythic abilities (champion path) for survivablity and combat. Plus moving at normal speed in medium armor (heavy armor counting as medium when made of mithral) would help him be able to get around the battlefield more effectively, as the mythic ability for armor does not grant this, only negating ACP and Max dex modifiers. I haven't gone to level 20 (max character level i played was at around 16th level) so i have never gotten to use the capstone abilities, and the Paladin's seems a bit lacking. Trying to banish, which at this point i would think most of the baddies you fight will easily shrug it off with a DC of 20 and i would assume many would have a normal SR significant enough to bypass the DC with a very low roll, if needing one at all, and then that ending the Smite. Of course you do not need to try to banish, but it doesn't offer any bonuses if you forgo the attempt at banishment.The extra damage from the Smite ability is of course great, but i would think that the 2 bonus feats and faster movement in armor would be more universally used.

swap to temperd champion if you dont care about spells it will net you some bonus feats then to avoid the pali capstone dip 2 levels into scaled fist unchained monk will get you your cha to ac(at high level it should be more than full plate) will get you normal move speed and no max dex for ac


First you can not get Aasimar racial feats with fighter bonus combat feats. That goes on top of how crappy the racial feat line is. The flight speed the wings gives you in heavy armor is laughable. Take dangerously curious trait for UMD and start popping scrolls of overland flight. Or buy winged boots or something. Don't throw away feats and capstone abilities for something you can mimic through countless spells, items and abilities.

2nd as for saving feats for offense..This is all you need in WotR: Power attack + Smite + mythic smite path ability. Your golden. Want to get super broken? Vital Strike + Mythic Vital Strike. Swing for lethal on a smite mythic vital strike.

So again the fighter levels are NOT worth it. Take the capstone ability.


Louise Bishop wrote:

First you can not get Aasimar racial feats with fighter bonus combat feats. That goes on top of how crappy the racial feat line is. The flight speed the wings gives you in heavy armor is laughable. Take dangerously curious trait for UMD and start popping scrolls of overland flight. Or buy winged boots or something. Don't throw away feats and capstone abilities for something you can mimic through countless spells, items and abilities.

2nd as for saving feats for offense..This is all you need in WotR: Power attack + Smite + mythic smite path ability. Your golden. Want to get super broken? Vital Strike + Mythic Vital Strike. Swing for lethal on a smite mythic vital strike.

So again the fighter levels are NOT worth it. Take the capstone ability.

well to be fair the paladin capstone is pretty bad maximized lay on hands is good not being able to smite most things you should be smiteing is bad


Xunriina wrote:
I am focusing my Paladin for a combat role with much less emphasis on magic usage.

One of the things that makes a paladin more effective in combat than fighters is magic. Paladins get some very good spells, e.g. the various litanies, divine favor, bless weapon, grace, hero's defiance, deadly juggernaut. Re being slow, doesn't celestial armour and boots of speed solve that? Alternatively Oath of vengeance paladins get blessing of fervour, or sacred servant paladins can pick up the travel domain.


If you are going to dip fighter id suggest 3 levels into Weapon Master. That gives you 2 free feats and weapon training which you can use to qualify weapon mastery feats that are actually quite potent.

Cut and smash from the air are some of the best defensive feats out there, difficult swings is a brutally effective way of increasing you battlefield presence, and weapon material mastery can grant you a free dispel magic against every for you face with a col iron weapon.

All you've lost from those levels is your capstone, a use and some damage off smite evil, a little bit of lay on hands and one condition off mercy. Importantly you still gain aura of righteousness which is a damn good ability. Any class other than the paladin would consider that a damn good capstone.

I'd say go for it


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Paladins need feats?

At 1st level, you get Fey Foundling. At 3rd Level, you get Power Attack. At 5th level and above, you just keep getting Extra Lay On Hands. The only other feat that you'd want is maybe Unsanctioned Knowledge, but that requires Intelligence 13+, which is practically unheard of for a Paladin to have.

That's all a Paladin needs. A lot of the other stuff they think they'd need is covered by their class features.


I like radiant charge too!


ShroudedInLight wrote:
I like radiant charge too!

It's basically a 1/day feat that drains all of your remaining survivability.

No thanks.


Extra lay on hands is what I'd spend most of the feats on, this is assuming oath of vengeance archetype.


FangDragon wrote:
Extra lay on hands is what I'd spend most of the feats on, this is assuming oath of vengeance archetype.

Even without the archetype, it's still worth more than most any other feats.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
ShroudedInLight wrote:
I like radiant charge too!

It's basically a 1/day feat that drains all of your remaining survivability.

No thanks.

It is also the grandest boss killer of all time. Nothing says BY THE HOLY LIGHT like being a level 12 human paladin with a cha of 20 slamming some dude for Weapon+Strength+Smite+up to 17d6+5. Double points if you describe it to your GM as dropping a giant sword of light from the heavens on the boss.

Is it efficient? No, but if the spooky dragon or devil is the last foe in the dungeon then it is a good bit of heavenly fun.

Silver Crusade

I love multi-classing and it's rare for me to build a character that doesn't dip in any campaign. Having said that, WotR is like Christmas for a Paladin. It's pretty much designed for a Paladin to shine in and your abilities are going to give you a serious edge in just about every scripted encounter. I'll dip just about anytime, anywhere, but I would not dip as a Paladin in Wrath of the Righteous.


ShroudedInLight wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
ShroudedInLight wrote:
I like radiant charge too!

It's basically a 1/day feat that drains all of your remaining survivability.

No thanks.

It is also the grandest boss killer of all time. Nothing says BY THE HOLY LIGHT like being a level 12 human paladin with a cha of 20 slamming some dude for Weapon+Strength+Smite+up to 17d6+5. Double points if you describe it to your GM as dropping a giant sword of light from the heavens on the boss.

Is it efficient? No, but if the spooky dragon or devil is the last foe in the dungeon then it is a good bit of heavenly fun.

And then you roll a 2 and miss, and now you're in the jaws of the BBEG with no means to save yourself.


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Radiant Charge wrote:
When you hit with a charge attack....

Nope.


Don't dip. Of you need extra feats we on the forums can find you room for those feats but a fighter dip is not worth it at all to a paladin unless you are a tower shield user.


Renegadeshepherd wrote:
Don't dip. Of you need extra feats we on the forums can find you room for those feats but a fighter dip is not worth it at all to a paladin unless you are a tower shield user.

3 levels into weapon master can be useful for gloves of dueling


Lady-J wrote:
Renegadeshepherd wrote:
Don't dip. Of you need extra feats we on the forums can find you room for those feats but a fighter dip is not worth it at all to a paladin unless you are a tower shield user.
3 levels into weapon master can be useful for gloves of dueling

Yeah but then you are sacraficing spells, at least one mercy, a smite evil usage that is on par with the gloves, will and reflex saves are slowed a gait bit, and an aura or replaced power thereof is lost. 3 levels of fighter is literally the difference between level X spells and X-1, even for a paladin that alone is significant.


Renegadeshepherd wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Renegadeshepherd wrote:
Don't dip. Of you need extra feats we on the forums can find you room for those feats but a fighter dip is not worth it at all to a paladin unless you are a tower shield user.
3 levels into weapon master can be useful for gloves of dueling
Yeah but then you are sacraficing spells, at least one mercy, a smite evil usage that is on par with the gloves, will and reflex saves are slowed a gait bit, and an aura or replaced power thereof is lost. 3 levels of fighter is literally the difference between level X spells and X-1, even for a paladin that alone is significant.

i always go tempered champion on paladins anyway gets rid of spells most of the spells on a paladins list you can get an items that does the job better, plus the weapon training 3 is always on compared to the smites bonus which is only on sometimes and mercies are pretty useless


Lady-J wrote:
Renegadeshepherd wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Renegadeshepherd wrote:
Don't dip. Of you need extra feats we on the forums can find you room for those feats but a fighter dip is not worth it at all to a paladin unless you are a tower shield user.
3 levels into weapon master can be useful for gloves of dueling
Yeah but then you are sacraficing spells, at least one mercy, a smite evil usage that is on par with the gloves, will and reflex saves are slowed a gait bit, and an aura or replaced power thereof is lost. 3 levels of fighter is literally the difference between level X spells and X-1, even for a paladin that alone is significant.
i always go tempered champion on paladins anyway gets rid of spells most of the spells on a paladins list you can get an items that does the job better, plus the weapon training 3 is always on compared to the smites bonus which is only on sometimes and mercies are pretty useless

if tempered champion is allowed at the table i might go with that logic but it isnt always. if you prefer offense over defense you make a decent counterpoint; but i personally find it hard to trade all those defensive bonuses for the "relatively" small gains of the glove over smite's built in damage.


Renegadeshepherd wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Renegadeshepherd wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Renegadeshepherd wrote:
Don't dip. Of you need extra feats we on the forums can find you room for those feats but a fighter dip is not worth it at all to a paladin unless you are a tower shield user.
3 levels into weapon master can be useful for gloves of dueling
Yeah but then you are sacraficing spells, at least one mercy, a smite evil usage that is on par with the gloves, will and reflex saves are slowed a gait bit, and an aura or replaced power thereof is lost. 3 levels of fighter is literally the difference between level X spells and X-1, even for a paladin that alone is significant.
i always go tempered champion on paladins anyway gets rid of spells most of the spells on a paladins list you can get an items that does the job better, plus the weapon training 3 is always on compared to the smites bonus which is only on sometimes and mercies are pretty useless
if tempered champion is allowed at the table i might go with that logic but it isnt always. if you prefer offense over defense you make a decent counterpoint; but i personally find it hard to trade all those defensive bonuses for the "relatively" small gains of the glove over smite's built in damage.

the 3 levels would net you 1 maybe 2 extra damage from smite were the gloves are a garenteed +3 to hit and damage if going to 20 you wont miss out on much a mercy and a use of smite and the cap stone but the capstone is garbage as it makes smite useless and if not going to 20 your not going to miss out on much else that you wouldnt miss out on alredy


Yet they will be going to 20 and 98% of all combats will be smite targets. So with mythic smite you should be smiting everything


Louise Bishop wrote:
Yet they will be going to 20 and 98% of all combats will be smite targets. So with mythic smite you should be smiting everything

so 98% of the adventure path is bossfights/mini boss fights? cuz its not worth it to waste smite on mooks, plus since they are going to 20 its even better as they only miss out on 1 smite per day a mercy and their crappy capstone


With mythic smite you can smite so much in a day...Just read the ability...It's Path ability #1.

You can smite 7/day at first mythic tier. Each tier adds more smites you can have in a day. Eventually you can smite everything...All day long..And as a free action when you recall a smite you auto pass all DR (even epic) for that round.

In WotR it is a Paladin wet dream AP.


Louise Bishop wrote:

With mythic smite you can smite so much in a day...Just read the ability...It's Path ability #1.

You can smite 7/day at first mythic tier. Each tier adds more smites you can have in a day. Eventually you can smite everything...All day long..And as a free action when you recall a smite you auto pass all DR (even epic) for that round.

In WotR it is a Paladin wet dream AP.

ok so even if you are smiteing everything its still not really worth it to get the 7th smite perday, extra mercy and capstone over the +3 to hit and damage at all times


I could see going the other way, dipping two levels of paladin for your fighter.

But I think this might be a case of 'ooh, shiny'. Why do you need more feats, OP? What are you looking at? Sometimes, you can replace feats with gear, sometimes feats aren't as good as they look.

Maybe you can get by without them.

What are your group's chances of getting to the end of this AP? That will make a difference as well.


Lady-J wrote:
Louise Bishop wrote:

With mythic smite you can smite so much in a day...Just read the ability...It's Path ability #1.

You can smite 7/day at first mythic tier. Each tier adds more smites you can have in a day. Eventually you can smite everything...All day long..And as a free action when you recall a smite you auto pass all DR (even epic) for that round.

In WotR it is a Paladin wet dream AP.

ok so even if you are smiteing everything its still not really worth it to get the 7th smite perday, extra mercy and capstone over the +3 to hit and damage at all times

I would say being able to smite 30 times a day (Or more with oath of Vengeance) allowing you to smite everything you are fighting, Another Mercy, DR/10 evil, and Banishment on hit far outweighs a 3 level fighter dip into +3 to hit and damage.

Plus the feats the OP wanted are not COMBAT feats they are racial feats...so they can not be gotten by the Bonus Fighter feats.

Then lets throw in the factor the OP does not know but in WotR a player gains an extra feat at Level 6. Most the Aasimar Feats are pretty sub par anyways but the dip will not accomplish what the OP wanted out of the dip.

So I believe we can build the OP a Level 20 paladin with most of everything he is wanting without having to dip down a tier into Fighter.

But we may find ourselfs in a place we can not agree Lady-J.

I just know I played WotR and the AP is built for a Paladin to get everything a paladin would ever want. The fact the OP is getting to play the paladin means they are Very Very lucky.

I honestly think the OP should not throw away spells. But the OP wants too so I won't argue about it with them. I just know 4th level paladin spell Greater Angelic aspect is basically better than all the Feats they are wanting. Plus the paladin list is good.


Louise Bishop wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Louise Bishop wrote:

With mythic smite you can smite so much in a day...Just read the ability...It's Path ability #1.

You can smite 7/day at first mythic tier. Each tier adds more smites you can have in a day. Eventually you can smite everything...All day long..And as a free action when you recall a smite you auto pass all DR (even epic) for that round.

In WotR it is a Paladin wet dream AP.

ok so even if you are smiteing everything its still not really worth it to get the 7th smite perday, extra mercy and capstone over the +3 to hit and damage at all times

I would say being able to smite 30 times a day (Or more with oath of Vengeance) allowing you to smite everything you are fighting, Another Mercy, DR/10 evil, and Banishment on hit far outweighs a 3 level fighter dip into +3 to hit and damage.

Plus the feats the OP wanted are not COMBAT feats they are racial feats...so they can not be gotten by the Bonus Fighter feats.

Then lets throw in the factor the OP does not know but in WotR a player gains an extra feat at Level 6. Most the Aasimar Feats are pretty sub par anyways but the dip will not accomplish what the OP wanted out of the dip.

So I believe we can build the OP a Level 20 paladin with most of everything he is wanting without having to dip down a tier into Fighter.

But we may find ourselfs in a place we can not agree Lady-J.

I just know I played WotR and the AP is built for a Paladin to get everything a paladin would ever want. The fact the OP is getting to play the paladin means they are Very Very lucky.

I honestly think the OP should not throw away spells. But the OP wants too so I won't argue about it with them. I just know 4th level paladin spell Greater Angelic aspect is basically better than all the Feats they are wanting. Plus the paladin list is good.

not true mercies are garbage mostly, you wont need the extra smite useage, if you can smite the enemy your dr is useless as they are evil and can usually bypass it, and the banishment effect is what makes the capstone garbage it most likely wont come into effect as the dc will be to low and when you wiff it, it ends the smite so you dont get any benifits for the rest of your full attack.

while the op may want racial feats he can retrain his alredy gotten combat feats into the fighter bonus feats and then use the now availible general feats on the racial feats.


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You can't even get Angel Wings until character level 10. Meanwhile the Paladin can cast Angelic Aspect for equivalent flight speed starting from level 10, with Greater Angelic Aspect granting double the fly speed as well as a whole host of useful buffs starting from level 13 (earlier than the wizard and cleric get it!).

Also, Mercies aren't garbage in any way. The ability to negate Fatigue at will means, for one, that you can sleep in your armor (which otherwise takes like 10 minutes to take on or off - terrible in ambush scenarios). If you have a Barbarian friend (or use Barbarian VMC), then that's access to a low level Rage Cycling.

Then there's the ability to heal the Sickened condition, a rather significant debuff used by all who are interested in applying debuffs. At higher levels, you can get rid of a TON of incredibly debilitating conditions.

AND there's the fact that Mercies just recently got a huge buff in options, including stuff like healing ability damage, dispelling magic, etc. Mind you, Healing ability damage otherwise costs a ton of money, and Paladins can now do so FOR FREE.

Then there's Lay on Hands swift healing being the most action economical healing in the game, combined with Ultimate Mercy allowing Paladins to Raise Dead, again FOR FREE.

Literally everything about the Paladin is way, way more awesome than stuff you'd otherwise find in a martial class.


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Kaouse wrote:

You can't even get Angel Wings until character level 10. Meanwhile the Paladin can cast Angelic Aspect for equivalent flight speed starting from level 10, with Greater Angelic Aspect granting double the fly speed as well as a whole host of useful buffs starting from level 13 (earlier than the wizard and cleric get it!).

Also, Mercies aren't garbage in any way. The ability to negate Fatigue at will means, for one, that you can sleep in your armor (which otherwise takes like 10 minutes to take on or off - terrible in ambush scenarios). If you have a Barbarian friend (or use Barbarian VMC), then that's access to a low level Rage Cycling.

Then there's the ability to heal the Sickened condition, a rather significant debuff used by all who are interested in applying debuffs. At higher levels, you can get rid of a TON of incredibly debilitating conditions.

AND there's the fact that Mercies just recently got a huge buff in options, including stuff like healing ability damage, dispelling magic, etc. Mind you, Healing ability damage otherwise costs a ton of money, and Paladins can now do so FOR FREE.

Then there's Lay on Hands swift healing being the most action economical healing in the game, combined with Ultimate Mercy allowing Paladins to Raise Dead, again FOR FREE.

Literally everything about the Paladin is way, way more awesome than stuff you'd otherwise find in a martial class.

All of this and then some. Mercies are great and the new options are kind of Lovely.

Petrified is a Brutal condition that most players do not prepare for. When it happens most people have to wait a day, find a scroll or Limited wish it off. The spell Heal does not even fix the condition. But a Paladin have a very economical way of healing with LoH and mercies.

Plus that +3 to hit and damage just is not that important when you will be hitting easy enough level 6+. Our Paladin had no problem laying waste to the demons and evil that fill the AP. I am not really seeing the benefit other than +1 to Hit/Damage, +1 vs Disarm or sunder, and 2 extra combat feats with a NEED to buy Gloves of Dueling for 15,000gp to make the dip seem more worth it.

Again Lady-J we will have to agree to disagree on this one.


three damage is what you're getting from smite, so that balances out.
so that leaves the +3 accuracy, which you could probably get from a paladin spell.


Chess Pwn wrote:

three damage is what you're getting from smite, so that balances out.

so that leaves the +3 accuracy, which you could probably get from a paladin spell.

+6 on the first hit, +3 every one after. typically 90%+ of enemies falls under the Double smite damage category.


I've never played a level 20 Paladin, but Lady-J does point out one thing: "Smite=Banish" could be a massive downgrade to your smite power. If the enemy succeeds at their saving throw you literally just wasted a smite (as opposed to a full-attack that would almost certainly kill anything).

Does anyone have any experience with that? How often do high level enemies succeed at that kind of saving throw?


MrCharisma wrote:

I've never played a level 20 Paladin, but Lady-J does point out one thing: "Smite=Banish" could be a massive downgrade to your smite power. If the enemy succeeds at their saving throw you literally just wasted a smite (as opposed to a full-attack that would almost certainly kill anything).

Does anyone have any experience with that? How often do high level enemies succeed at that kind of saving throw?

The Smite Banish works on the lesser demons (Mooks)...I mean WotR your fighting Demon LORDS as bosses. You just smite again with your 30 a day and benefit from another Double Smite damage hit the following round. If you take Mythic Vital strike with a smiting Paladin, doing Double smite damage, there will NOT be a 2nd round need as you will be 1 shoting most bosses even.

DC is 10 + 10 (1/2 level) + Cha (with mythic easy to reach 30 CHA by then) So DC=30 Banishment. A Pit Fiend (CR=20) only has a +18 will save. So the Pit fiend needs to roll a 12+ to not be banished. The math is in your favor (roughly 60%) To banish Mooks all day long. Plus it is (Su) and skips right past SR.

Also Native outsiders are not and can not be banished and thus the smite does not end.

Now many a Table agree with RAI Holy Champion. If you scourer the Forums you will see many a player and home groups lean towards if the banish fails the smite does not end. Here is a FAQ, Staff member Response Thread.

But with so many smites in Mythic it hardly matters.


Cool, Yeah it makes a lot more sense if they don't end the smite (and Holy Champion becomes an absolutely amazing capstone). Also remember the paladin's weapon/holy symbol adds 2 to that save DC, so it's slightly better even.

With all that in mind I probably wouldn't recommend a dip either. I doubt a 1 or 2 level dip will really hurt your effectiveness (let's be honest you'll still be wading through demon-lords like they're nothing) but you're probably better off staying with Paladin all the way to 20.

Just my 2 cents.


as written the ability ends after one attack regardless of weather it was or was not bashished which still makes it terible vs the one type of thing you will be wanting to smite.

ill conside on the mercies being garbage part didnt realize the got some new ones that are actually good. only knew of their tiny list of like 12 total mercies before most of which were not good


Lady-J wrote:

as written the ability ends after one attack regardless of weather it was or was not bashished which still makes it terible vs the one type of thing you will be wanting to smite.

ill conside on the mercies being garbage part didnt realize the got some new ones that are actually good. only knew of their tiny list of like 12 total mercies before most of which were not good

RaW vs RaI.

Most of my searches yielded heavier favor of RaI on Holy Champion. Even with Paizo Staff Member chiming in saying RaI is how they do it when they play. It is just a minor language/grammar error and no one would/should make a capstone that completely Nurtures a class.

Also if you banish an outsider to the plane you are on...does it really work? Worldwound is a portal to the Abyss and part of the Abyss's encroachment upon the material plane and thus part of the Abyss. At least how I understood it.

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