at what level should a PC start getting magic items?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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so your starting a new character at level 6. now the idea is that the PC has some how gotten to that level some how. would such a character have picked up a magic item along the way before you started playing them?


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This chart suggests that if you are starting a level six character under normal game assumptions, you would have 16,000gp in equipment. wealth by level

That's essentially impossible without quite a few magic items, so I would definitely assume said character would have several magic items. Presumably they got the equipment from the same places they got the 23,000 XP it would take to become level six (raided a goblin villiage, trounces some bandits and liberated their loots, that sort of thing)


my dm is adamant that my character does not have any magical items at all or any items with special qualities. so that leaves my PC walking around with a horde of money items (things like gems and plat and the like to reduce the weight) equaling 16k in gold. my Pc is a witch and i just so happen to not have a high STR but i do have a spell secret coffer other wise my PC would have lost all its wealth even before starting.


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zainale wrote:
my dm is adamant that my character does not have any magical items at all or any items with special qualities. so that leaves my PC walking around with a horde of money items (things like gems and plat and the like to reduce the weight) equaling 16k in gold. my Pc is a witch and i just so happen to not have a high STR but i do have a spell secret coffer other wise my PC would have lost all its wealth even before starting.

Take Craft Wondrous Item as your 3rd level feat and say you created all your magic items. Bonus points since as a Witch most of your items are going to be wondrous items, they are going to be counted at cost not price (so half off in most cases). Of course you will need to have a discussion with your GM, because they are absolutely wrong about Pathfinder's magic item expectations. 6th level characters are expected to have all of the "Big Six" magic items by level 6, hence the 16,000 GP Wealth by Level. Explain to your GM that Pathfinder assumes player have access to magic items and monster are given their respective CR with the expectation players are keeping up in terms of magic items. Point out the how readily available the rules assume magic items are in settlements. Or direct your GM here. *glances at avatar* Not all of us bite.


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It sounds like you are joining an ongoing game.
If this is so, how are the rest of the party, itemwise?


Your GM is the final word here. They may have something special in mind.

Standard expectations are that you'd be equipped as suggested - basically whatever you can buy with 16K. If your GM is changing that, it's most likely for a reason. Talk to them about it. As Daw says, how are the rest of the group equipped?

It might be a low magic game, which has its own issues. There might be a special introduction planned which will lead to you getting properly geared up. Many possibilities. One of which of course is that your GM is screwing you over. :)


Keep most of your wealth liquid (gems are good) so that you can buy magic items when you get the opportunity. Being a witch, there's very little non-magical gear that can eat up that sort of wealth.


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Chad Nedzlek wrote:

This chart suggests that if you are starting a level six character under normal game assumptions, you would have 16,000gp in equipment. wealth by level

the GM in question may not be running a standard wealth by level campaign. the OP should confirm this by checking the gear of his peers.


If he is walking round with 16K gems and platinum then it is standard wealth and the DM is doing one of two things.

1) f&+!ing with him
2) has something novel planned, in which case he should at least of communicated this to the player joining a campaign midway, you can't just expect people to follow you blindly when you're being weird. It can still be a secret, but I think he should at least say something is gonna happen in this regard. Otherwise he should expect option 1 is assumed.


pcs should have 1 magic item at the 2-3 level mark and atleast 2+ magic items at level 6


Daw wrote:

It sounds like you are joining an ongoing game.

If this is so, how are the rest of the party, itemwise?

ohh i am joining the ongoing campaign. my first character died by tiger sneak attack during the night. then i made a new character that lasted a while till he got murdered by the party's wizard (shot my alchemist bomber with an AoE shatter spell when he was carrying tons of glass vials of alchemical fire and acids which lite and set off his alchemical grenades which in turn blew up the BBEG's magical device that the alchemist was working on disabling. so i made a new Pc this witch.

there are some magic items in the game but most the time they are not very useful or don't have visible effects. or can't be used by the party at that time.
like a sipping jacket that you can't use extracts in/on it
an iceburst weapon to a party member that does not crit
or a living spider book of spiders that attacks anyone that tries to use it with paralyzing bites and webs or a book meant to kill that aforementioned book.
or a manual of construct creation
a few ioun tourches
-we had a book of escape but it escaped.-
most of the useful items that we had or got. the wizard took for himself or used the party funds to create for himself.

and the reason why my witch does not have the item creation feat is because the wizard has the item creation feats and the Dm might lose his shyt if two Pcs had that feat.

the dm says its only low magic so he can give us the magic items he wants to give us.


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That sounds terrible, in pretty much all respects.


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_Ozy_ wrote:
That sounds terrible, in pretty much all respects.

Yeah, this sounds like it belongs in one of those "terribad DMs" threads.

My advice is to remember the cardinal rule of tabletop RPGs:

"No gaming is better than bad gaming."


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Yeah, is the Wizard player, perchance, best friends with the GM?


My condolences Zainele.
We used to have a player who GMed like that.

Edit
I reread, was what was written the majority of part magic?

Can you keep cash and have your wizard enchant for you?


sounds like the dm is trying to withhold all useful magic items from the party, but the game assumes you have magic gear and is balanced arround that fact so sooner or later you guys are going to tpk from the lack of magic gear, your wizard also sound like a dick. even in low magic games you still have useful gear even in a friends low magic game were all casters are baned(they done exist for the players or the dm) they still got a couple +1 weapons at level 4.

i sugest you take the item creation feats if he flips his nogen out over 2 pcs having item creation feats tell him to blame the wizard who is hogging all the items/presumably taking all the wealth infront of the other pcs and not going out solo and earning it all which should be the only reson to hog stuff is if you earned it by yourself. and hes being stingy with the item creation feats, so long as the other party members pay for the item and maybe buy your character a meal or a drink from the tavarn theres no reason to not make them gear as well.


Anzyr said wrote:
...they are absolutely wrong about Pathfinder's magic item expectations. 6th level characters are expected to have all of the "Big Six" magic items by level 6

I'm sorry, I missed that in the rulebook (whichever one it was) that said you HAVE to spend your WBL on those "Big Six" can you cite?

(rhetorical only... I kid...)

A group I am in started a game with 3rd level PC's and 1st level WBL, no magic or masterwork allowed. I was not able to get masterwork armor until 6th level. Now at 10th level, my best weapon is a +1 spear.

We all have a great time in the game, though. It all depends on how the campaign is themed. Just because magic items are scarce does not mean the game cannot be enjoyed anyways. We've fought demons and undead and all manner of critters without any of us having the "big six" and never given it a second thought. We have a great time.


mardaddy wrote:
Anzyr said wrote:
...they are absolutely wrong about Pathfinder's magic item expectations. 6th level characters are expected to have all of the "Big Six" magic items by level 6

I'm sorry, I missed that in the rulebook (whichever one it was) that said you HAVE to spend your WBL on those "Big Six" can you cite?

(rhetorical only... I kid...)

A group I am in started a game with 3rd level PC's and 1st level WBL, no magic or masterwork allowed. I was not able to get masterwork armor until 6th level. Now at 10th level, my best weapon is a +1 spear.

We all have a great time in the game, though. It all depends on how the campaign is themed. Just because magic items are scarce does not mean the game cannot be enjoyed anyways. We've fought demons and undead and all manner of critters without any of us having the "big six" and never given it a second thought. We have a great time.

And your group is outside the expectations of the game. You can have a great time playing commoners, but again that is outside the expectations of the game. How do I know your experience is outside the expectations of the game, well let's ask the game:

Placing Treasure wrote:
Table: Character Wealth by Level lists the amount of treasure each PC is expected to have at a specific level.

The underlying mechanics of the game (which PF inherited from 3.5) is that monsters are built around the assumption players are buying magic weapons/armor/stat items/cloaks of resistance/amulets of natural armor and rings of deflection. Thus any DM lacking a pretty significant amount of system mastery is risking completely screwing up the system's math if they skew from the expected numbers. With enough system mastery it is possible to rework the system to accommodate this, but don't be surprised if the system you end up with is PINO (Pathfinder in Name Only). I am also coining the term PINO. It should be convenient short hand for future discussions.


zainale wrote:
ohh i am joining the ongoing campaign. my first character died by tiger sneak attack during the night. then i made a new character that lasted a while till he got murdered by the party's wizard (shot my alchemist bomber with an AoE shatter spell when he was carrying tons of glass vials of alchemical fire and acids which lite and set off his alchemical grenades which in turn blew up the BBEG's magical device that the alchemist was working on disabling. so i made a new Pc this witch.

The GM failed bigtime here.

SRD wrote:
Used as an area attack, shatter destroys non-magical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain. All such unattended objects within a 5-foot radius of the point of origin are smashed into dozens of pieces by the spell.

Shatter can not affect anything you carry.

This is why your gear usually survives AOE effects without damage.

At best, only one attended item could be affected (see here).

zainale wrote:
my dm is adamant that my character does not have any magical items at all or any items with special qualities.

For magic items, there is the NPC Gear table which states a 12th level NPC [i.e. NPC with PC classes] has about 16K. They are expected to have:

6,000 gp in weapons
4,500 gp in protection
4,000 gp in magic
1,350 gp in limited use
500 gp in gear
groups:
Weapons: This includes normal, masterwork, and magic weapons, as well as magic staves and wands used by spellcasters to harm their enemies. For example, a wand of scorching ray would count as a weapon, but a staff of life would count as a piece of magic gear.

Protection: This category includes armor and shields, as well as any magic item that augments a character’s Armor Class or saving throws.

Magic: This category includes all other permanent magic items. Most rings, rods, and wondrous items fit into this category.

Limited Use: Items that fall into this category include alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands with few charges. Charged wondrous items fall into this grouping as well.

Gear: Use the amount in this category to purchase standard nonmagical gear for the character. In most cases, this equipment can be omitted during creation and filled in as needed during play. You can assume that the character has whatever gear is needed for him to properly use his skills and class abilities. This category can also include jewelry, gems, or loose coins that the NPC might have on his person.

By the settlements rules, even the tiniest town can sell you a mundane 500 gp item. Silver items are available at this level, as is cold iron. To get an Ioun Torch requires a 3rd level spell, which you can get in a village which can sell 2,500 gp items. Adamantine may be out, except for ammo, but mithral is available.

Saying no magic and no special material means the GM is changing the default assumptions of the game. Either the GM is being a jerk, or has something special in mind. Not even "low magic" games remove special materials.

Given the blunder above, I would not want to play in that game. and a player that targets you in order to blow up the BBEG's device is PVP bigtime. I would not want to play with them either.

/cevah


Cevah wrote:
zainale wrote:
ohh i am joining the ongoing campaign. my first character died by tiger sneak attack during the night. then i made a new character that lasted a while till he got murdered by the party's wizard (shot my alchemist bomber with an AoE shatter spell when he was carrying tons of glass vials of alchemical fire and acids which lite and set off his alchemical grenades which in turn blew up the BBEG's magical device that the alchemist was working on disabling. so i made a new Pc this witch.

The GM failed bigtime here.

SRD wrote:
Used as an area attack, shatter destroys non-magical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain. All such unattended objects within a 5-foot radius of the point of origin are smashed into dozens of pieces by the spell.

Shatter can not affect anything you carry.

This is why your gear usually survives AOE effects without damage.

At best, only one attended item could be affected (see here).

zainale wrote:
my dm is adamant that my character does not have any magical items at all or any items with special qualities.

For magic items, there is the NPC Gear table which states a 12th level NPC [i.e. NPC with PC classes] has about 16K. They are expected to have:

6,000 gp in weapons
4,500 gp in protection
4,000 gp in magic
1,350 gp in limited use
500 gp in gear
** spoiler omitted **...

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The PCs should start getting magic items at the point where you quit this nightmare of a gaming group and join a sensible one.


Hm... a lot of BADWRONGFUN in here, surprisingly.
At no level are you entitled to magic items: It's all about what game you play in.

zaniele wrote:
the dm says its only low magic so he can give us the magic items he wants to give us

If that's the game he's running, you should accept it. And I really don't see why you shouldn't , there's nothing wrong with that kind of game.

You should, however, make sure that he knows that he should account for your missing "big-six" items (game math, etc-etc) - one way of doing this is to use the Automatic Bonus Progression rules from Unchained.


Rub-Eta wrote:
Hm... a lot of BADWRONGFUN in here, surprisingly.

I dunno. The opening post reads like a complaint to me, which means the opening poster is not having fun with this game.

That's not BADWRONGFUN. That's a GM who is failing in his single most important responsibility, to make sure the players are enjoying themselves.

That's not BADWRONGFUN, that's an actual bad game master.


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Rub-Eta wrote:

Hm... a lot of BADWRONGFUN in here, surprisingly.

...

The GM allowed another player to kill the OP's alchemist with a Shatter spell (because all of their alchemical gear exploded, apparently, despite the fact that this is not how Shatter works). Throw in some dysfunctional party dynamics and probable favoritism and the "this GM and game are terribad, run away" sentiments are completely deserved.


I find that most of the time GMs run this or related games with a "low magic" theme is because they don't want to be bothered with managing loot that carefully.

If that's the case, I strongly recommend switching to Automatic Bonus Progression so the math of the party can at least keep up with the CR system.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Per RAW, yes, you *are* entitled to magic items. That is precisely what WBL and the rules for what items are available in settlements represent. Likewise, enemy NPCs with full PC WBL have +1 CR because of their superior ability to equip themselves compared to other NPCs. A party without that capability is definitely a lower effective APL than their factual level would suggest. A GM can change these assumptions, but it requires a *lot* of work, system mastery, and awareness which, in general experience is rarely possessed, and by other red flags in what we know of this GM, I sorely doubt they have.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
zainale wrote:


ohh i am joining the ongoing campaign. my first character died by tiger sneak attack during the night. then i made a new character that lasted a while till he got murdered by the party's wizard (shot my alchemist bomber with an AoE shatter spell when he was carrying tons of glass vials of alchemical fire and acids which lite and set off his alchemical grenades which in turn blew up the BBEG's magical device that the alchemist was working on disabling. so i made a new Pc this witch.

there are some magic items in the game but most the time they are not very useful or don't have visible effects. or can't be used by the party at that time.
like a sipping jacket that you can't use extracts in/on it
an iceburst weapon to a party member that does not crit
or a living spider book of spiders that attacks anyone that tries to use it with paralyzing bites and webs or a book meant to kill that aforementioned book.
or a manual of construct creation
a few ioun tourches
-we had a book of escape but it escaped.-
most of the useful items that we had or got. the wizard took for himself or used the party funds to create for himself.

and the reason why my witch does not have the item creation feat is because the wizard has the item creation feats and the Dm might lose his shyt if two Pcs had that feat.

the dm says its only low magic so he can give us the magic items he wants to give us.

Wow. Several red flags going off here.

Sounds like the wizard player may be a problem if he's murdering other PCs and hoarding the magical gear. Add in the "low magic" game and he's kind of cornering the party market on magic. Chances are he'd have a problem with another arcane caster and find a way to murder your witch character too.

And the GM's letting him get away with that. How do the other players feel about all this?

In general, I don't have a problem with a GM wanting to run a "low magic" campaign, but it requires some work to pull off fairly. And it doesn't sound like that's what's going on here.


Rub-Eta wrote:

Hm... a lot of BADWRONGFUN in here, surprisingly.

At no level are you entitled to magic items: It's all about what game you play in.
zaniele wrote:
the dm says its only low magic so he can give us the magic items he wants to give us

If that's the game he's running, you should accept it. And I really don't see why you shouldn't , there's nothing wrong with that kind of game.

You should, however, make sure that he knows that he should account for your missing "big-six" items (game math, etc-etc) - one way of doing this is to use the Automatic Bonus Progression rules from Unchained.

Because fudging the rules of a spell in order for one PC to kill the other is fine.

And a low magic campaign where you have wealth by level but can't spend it on magic and instead have to lug around tones of plantinum and gems is such a good campaign design.

The Exchange

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16,000g and I can't buy magic items?

Screw Adventuring... I'm going into commodities trading!


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I 30121565th PossibleCabbage. Do suggest the ABP rules to your DM - I really do think they are superior to the CRB rules it replaces.

@Orfamay Quest: I can't distinguish that from the opening post.

@Snowblind: That sucks indeed. But that doesn't mean that the DM is wrong in every aspect of his DMing.

@Revan: WBL doesn't entitle you to magic items (edit: no more than you are entitled to herd thousands of capybaras).

@Chromatic Durgon <3: Again, just because the DM is wrong in some aspects doesn't mean that he's wrong about everything. The Wizard player/problem is an entirely different question than what the main focus of this thread was - yet people seem to hate this DM and his group for wanting to play the game a specific way.
And I really don't care for your straw-man construction.


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Glorf Fei-Hung wrote:

16,000g and I can't buy magic items?

Screw Adventuring... I'm going into commodities trading!

You could also herd 16,000 capybaras...


Rub-Eta wrote:
You could also herd 16,000 capybaras...

What problem could not be solved with 500,000 cats?


I don't know. In fact, I don't want to know.


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Hey, there's your way to make up for your missing WBL....
Hoard millions of cats, and overwhelm your enemies with your feline fury!
Just make sure you can control them, and ask your GM how many cats you need to get a swarm.


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Rub-Eta wrote:

...

@Snowblind: That sucks indeed. But that doesn't mean that the DM is wrong in every aspect of his DMing.
...
@Chromatic Durgon <3: Again, just because the DM is wrong in some aspects doesn't mean that he's wrong about everything. The Wizard player/problem is an entirely different question than what the main focus of this thread was - yet people seem to hate this DM and his group for wanting to play the game a specific way.
And I really don't care for your straw-man construction.

To put it bluntly, the sort of crappy GMing that the OP described points strongly towards a GM that is either grossly incompetent or who willfully fosters a dysfunctional gaming environment. At that point, it doesn't matter whether or not a hypothetical GM can make a game with virtually no worthwhile magic items work, because in the specific instance of this particular player and this particular GM, the only realistic option for the player is to run a thousand miles because this particular GM probably couldn't run a decent game if their life depended on it.

If the GM is keeping magic items out of the game and that is screwing up this particular player's fun then this is a problem (you can tell there is a problem because a player is posting on an official RPG board about how this aspect of their GM's GMing isn't doing it for them). Because the GM is probably terribad, trying to fix this particular problem is probably pointless because this GM's problem with magic items probably can't be fixed, and even on the outside chance that it was there would probably be more problems next week that would screw up this player's fun, magic items or no, because gross incompetence or malice can't be fixed by a couple of game tweaks. The only real solution is to get the hell away.


Rub-Eta wrote:


@Chromatic Durgon <3: Again, just because the DM is wrong in some aspects doesn't mean that he's wrong about everything. The Wizard player/problem is an entirely different question than what the main focus of this thread was - yet people seem to hate this DM and his group for wanting to play the game a specific way.
And I really don't care for your straw-man construction.

People are arguing he is handling things wrong, i.e. Letting them have the money but giving them nothing to spend it on and allowing pvp and articifclly favouring one player in a pvp setting. And you're wondering why people hate this Dm, are you actually wondering or are you just ignoring the reason?

I didn't make one so that's kewl.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Not only did the GM and wizard player get shatter wrong, they couldn't have detonated all your bombs at once since, per the rules, all of your bombs are inert, disparate substances until you attack with them.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Level 0.1 in PFS....wand of cure light wounds :)


another problem i see with this campaigns is "its a low magic game" and they allowed some one to play a wizard.....


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In a low magic game a wizard will dominate a game with few generally useful magic items.
The wizard is further allowed to create useful items for himself only.
The wizard is allowed to PVP to kill off his only real competition, the alchemist.
In support of the wizard, the GM completely redefines the effect of the Shatter spell.
In support of the wizard, the GM redefines how an alchemists unactivated materials work.
.....
How is this GM not a dick?


There really is no clear answer to the OP question, as each GM can vary the amount of magic that their campaign has.
In general, a GM should keep the amount of magic available to the party consistent with what is need to overcome the challenges the party will face.

On the surface, this GM, the game, and the a$$hat of a wizard player, seem to suggest a future of bad gaming experience.
For the OP: you've read the posts on this thread. You know the GM and group better than us. Would any of the following apply?

-GM is a troll regarding magic.
-GM favors one or more players.
-GM and/or players have little understanding (or interest) of PF rules. (nothing wrong with home-brew rules - but not if it's haphazard, inconsistent or not established at the start)
-Fellow players screw each other over (especially without GM consequences).
-Seemingly arbitrary or unfair restriction on PCs without any hint of explanation.

How many of these apply will determine the speed at which you should leave skid marks away from the table.

First thing I would do is call out the wizard.
Kills party members. Takes PARTY treasure for own use. Hordes any (marginally) useful items.
If the other players are unwilling to stand up to this d-bag, or the GM obviously will back such garbage (GM's pet/buddy), then run - don't walk - yourself out of there.

There are plenty of gamers out there. Join up with some that aren't poison to a good game experience.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Daw wrote:

In a low magic game a wizard will dominate a game with few generally useful magic items.

The wizard is further allowed to create useful items for himself only.
The wizard is allowed to PVP to kill off his only real competition, the alchemist.
In support of the wizard, the GM completely redefines the effect of the Shatter spell.
In support of the wizard, the GM redefines how an alchemists unactivated materials work.
.....
How is this GM not a dick?

Or...

The GM didn't read or pay attention to either the shatter spell's text about affecting unattended items and the alchemist's unactivated materials and just made a bad decision.
You don't really need to assume malice on the GM's part.


That'd be fine if it was a NPC alchemist but it wasn't it was the DM letting one player kill another and fudging to it.


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It's also a pattern with the GM. Really, it's not worth the time or effort to try to dissect why this particular GM acted the way he did.


_Ozy_ wrote:
It's also a pattern with the GM. Really, it's not worth the time or effort to try to dissect why this particular GM acted the way he did.

Especially since it does not matter. Whether through incompetence or active malice, the result is still the same. The game master is a bad game master.

Seriously. The best defense that can be offered is that he didn't mean to?


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1) shatter, what does that do? "Kill the alchemist"
2) skims shatter, what does this say it does? "Kill the alchemist"

it would seem that he didn't make it past step 1 or 2, and was super okay with the result that he didn't care to be bothered to confirm that the rules led to that result.

not caring enough to double check a player death from PvP, and no punishment to the wizard for doing so, doesn't seem like the kind of game I'd be in.


Ravingdork wrote:
Not only did the GM and wizard player get shatter wrong, they couldn't have detonated all your bombs at once since, per the rules, all of your bombs are inert, disparate substances until you attack with them.

Zainale refers to them as both "alchemical fire and acids" and "alchemical grenades", so I'm not 100% sure what to think. I'd err on the side of alchemical fire/acids, since bombs are never mentioned, but other people have pointed out the mechanical flaws in setting off a bunch of alchemical fire in previous posts. And that's not much consolation, given the state of the game.


Glorf Fei-Hung wrote:

16,000g and I can't buy magic items?

Screw Adventuring... I'm going into commodities trading!

I suspect the Wizard and/or GM would find a way to hire bandits to take your 16k gp of commodities, then resell them as "like new", "well loved", or "tested for your pleasure". Or maybe just "alternatively new". Not stolen goods, just "borrowed indefinitely", or perhaps "liberated products" if you're into that. Or the Wizard just goes and takes it, since it's "party money", and you're clearly not using it for anything anyways.


My Self wrote:
Glorf Fei-Hung wrote:

16,000g and I can't buy magic items?

Screw Adventuring... I'm going into commodities trading!

I suspect the Wizard and/or GM would find a way to hire bandits to take your 16k gp of commodities, then resell them as "like new", "well loved", or "tested for your pleasure". Or maybe just "alternatively new". Not stolen goods, just "borrowed indefinitely", or perhaps "liberated products" if you're into that. Or the Wizard just goes and takes it, since it's "party money", and you're clearly not using it for anything anyways.

It's not actually clear to me he really gets the 16K. IIRC, that came up here as how much money he should have based on WBL, not anything his GM explicitly said he would have. With a low magic GM, I'd expect much lower starting wealth.

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