sorcerer+reincarnate=what happens?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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I was wondering because from how I understand it is that it is attached to a bloodline and if the sorcerer is reincarnated he would possibly get a new race/body. how does it work for them? i mean the new body is not of the sorcerer's bloodline.


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it wouldnt effect them in any way


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It wouldn't affect them. Flavor is mutable. As an example you don't have to be related to a demon. You could have been born in an area that had a very powerful one around or any number of reasons.

If your grandfather signed a deal with a devil that is an example of how you could have gotten your powers.


Yes, but what if your bloodline came from an actual bloodline? For instance what if you were the progeny of a devil? And that's where you got your power from.


Lakesidefantasy wrote:
Yes, but what if your bloodline came from an actual bloodline? For instance what if you were the progeny of a devil? And that's where you got your power from.

The reincarnated Sorcerer would still have that Bloodline. /thread.


It doesn't change a thing.
As a flavor explanation I use that the power of your bloodline is attached to your soul not to your body, and even if you reincarnate as a different being you still are in soul of your original race.


Lakesidefantasy wrote:
Yes, but what if your bloodline came from an actual bloodline? For instance what if you were the progeny of a devil? And that's where you got your power from.

Your body may no longer be of the bloodline, but what makes you who you are, your soul, still is. Or at least that is one way of looking at it.

OR your new body, still being connected to you, may have the appropriate bloodline as well.


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Now if the player and the GM were wanting to use this idea as a plot device, say the character was rejecting his bloodline, I would probably let this be a good final step.


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With the player agreement, that could make a great story. With the wrong GM, something to fear.


Lakesidefantasy wrote:
Yes, but what if your bloodline came from an actual bloodline? For instance what if you were the progeny of a devil? And that's where you got your power from.

It doesn't matter. How you get the bloodline is flavor. It doesn't change anything.


Yeah, I know. I get it. It doesn't matter. It really doesn't even matter what the bloodline is. All that matters is what powers your character gets.

But, if for some reason it did matter, perhaps for flavor, then maybe your sorcerer would lose his spell casting abilities! Ha ha hah! Not unlike a wizard who loses his spellbook. Man, what a drag. Perhaps there's another option. Maybe something like atonement. I don't know.

Now, I would never force a sorcerer to lose his spell casting ability, but I would expect a justification. And if I didn't get one...oh well, play on.


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Well, I think the flavor behind the rules is important. Saying «you don't lose your powers because of reasons» is not as powerful as saying «your magic is tied to your soul, and even if you are now a human your soul will always be tainted with abyssal power».

But I can see a lot of plot devices to homebrew things. What if a player wants to change his character's bloodline for a reason? Maybe the GM can create a plot where the character dies and is reincarnated into another race and, in this case, his bloodline changes.

Maybe the character sacrificed himself to get rid of the infernal taint of his soul and with a new body the redemption comes.

Maybe the opposite, and being reincarnated by a follower of an evil deity has infused him of dark power, or a god of nature can infuse the body with the power of nature, etc.

Maybe a character loses all spellcasting because of the reincarnation and has to perform some kind of ritual to infuse his body with the spiritual energy that allowed him to use magic.

As a plot device it can be a great opportunity (always with the player's complicity) that makes twisting the rules a bit an interesting option.


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Actually reincarnation could be a reason you have the bloodline in the first place. I am not talking about the spell reincarnate, but rather the concept that when you die you are reborn in a different body. Considering this is a belief that is held by many in the real world it probably also exists in the game.

This could lead to some interesting ideas. Maybe there are a set number of sorcerers in the world, but they are constantly being reborn. It would explain why a sorcerer is born into a family with no history of having sorcerers. It would also explain why the children of sorcerers are not always sorcerers themselves.


That's an interesting idea Mysterious Stranger.
My take on why not all the family become sorcerers is because,aside of having the blood running in their veins, not all individuals have the strength of personality (aka CHA score) to become sorcerers and maybe they are not even interested in it. Maybe some kind of event has to awaken the dormant powers, or maybe you have to actively investigate to awaken them.
Your take is also interesting and it's not necessarily opposed to mine. Magic is mysterious and it can work different in each individual case.
Also, some bloodlines might not manifest because of inheritance but because of an external infusion of power. A child from a normal mother who is born in the elemental plane of water could easily turn into an aquatic sorcerer when he grows up.


Reincarnation simply means reforming the same body into a different shape dragons frequently do so and get it on with everything and anything that moves that's the premise of how some sorcs get there power, that said there body being fundamentally turned into an adult humans for all intents and purposes ( Which silver dragons do a lot ) doesn't leave them stuck without powers. Even when a dragons power is base off how old they are.

Basically magical bloodlines are potential. You learn how to leverage it without a lot of effort unlike others but its still innate, I mean that be like saying ghosts can't have a bloodline


I also see it as you have a special connection with the universe that is beyond genetics. That is why your soul doesn't lose the bloodline powers when it goes to a new body.

Another example of would be spells such as magic jar. If you had to possess(be in) the original body then you couldn't use your magic while possessing someone else.

You would also lose all of your spells since your entire ability as a sorcerer not just the bloodline would be tied to the original body after being reincarnated but the spell says nothing about you losing your class.


Bross, you're mistaking polymorph with reincarnate.
Dragons polymorph, which doesn't change their creature type. Reincarnation changes the creature type. So it's not the same at all.
A polymorphed creature is a creature of its type who has adopted a new shape, but a reincarnated creature is for all intents and purposes a creature of its new type.


How about an alchemist with the ever popular (but gross) tumor familiar? Would your new body have the same tumor?

These are things that are fun to consider when your character gets reincarnated. They're not problems to be solved, they're fun opportunities for character development!


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Base answer by RAW: Everything you have stays. For campaigns not very focused in roleplaying where a character depends more on mechanics than flavor it's OK because it's simple.
But what I really like is that, as a GM, you have a lot of room to create awesome stories making it work in a different way or allowing some character refactoring to enhance the story.
Making the Alchemist perform a grim experiment to grow back a tumor familiar after being reincarnated adds some flavor to the story and does not perjudicate the character in any way, so I think it can be pretty cool.


Lakesidefantasy wrote:

How about an alchemist with the ever popular (but gross) tumor familiar? Would your new body have the same tumor?

These are things that are fun to consider when your character gets reincarnated. They're not problems to be solved, they're fun opportunities for character development!

The rules answer is everything stays, but it seems like we have gone into "rule of cool" area which leads to "ask the GM". :)


Actually, Bross isn't reading the spell as Written.

Reincarnate spell text wrote:

With this spell, you bring back a dead creature in another body, provided that its death occurred no more than 1 week before the casting of the spell and the subject's soul is free and willing to return. If the subject's soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.

Since the dead creature is returning in a new body, all physical ills and afflictions are repaired. The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature's body still exists, it can be reincarnated, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature's body at the time of death. The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand. This process takes 1 hour to complete. When the body is ready, the subject is reincarnated.

A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject of the spell gains two permanent negative levels when it is reincarnated. If the subject is 1st level, it takes 2 points of Constitution drain instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can't be reincarnated). A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being reincarnated. A spellcasting creature that doesn't prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell.

It's possible for the change in the subject's ability scores to make it difficult for it to pursue its previous character class. If this is the case, the subject is advised to become a multiclass character.

For a humanoid creature, the new incarnation is determined using the table below. For nonhumanoid creatures, a similar table of creatures of the same type should be created.

A creature that has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be returned to life by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can't be reincarnated. The spell can bring back a creature that has died of old age.


Reincarnate creates a new young adult body for you.

If your previous body had demon blood or whatever, there's no reason your new body can't have it too.


Matthew,
There is no reason to think that the bloodline hasn't tainted the soul, which then taints the fresh new body when it inhabits it, but it is more of a stretch that a body of a new race, age, and possibly, sex is somehow templated with another bodies DNA as part of its creation. It could work that way if that is what you prefer. Frankly, considering how some people feel about "flavor" in the game, if you prefer to just totally ignore the issue, you have a lot of company. It is a preference, whichever way you want to play it.


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Daw wrote:
it is more of a stretch that a body of a new race, age, and possibly, sex is somehow templated with another bodies DNA as part of its creation.

Why? It's already magic spell that that is not constrained by science. It uses a piece of the original creature's body (containing their DNA) as a component. Your old body's Strength, Dexterity and Constitution are somehow carried across (if not changed by new racial modifiers). Magic demon blood being carried across too makes no more or less sense to me than anything else here.


Like I said, it's a preference. Play it how you like, just try and avoid sounding like anyone who disagrees with your preference is wrong.


Sure, if the GM decides that the sorcerer must lose all his class levels because he was reincarnated, I'm not going to call him wrong. It's a valid preference, just not one I happen to share.


The DM has wiggle room since there is an outright 1 in 100 chance of him selecting the new body anyway. I think the sensible way to play it is, if you want random, then roll it random and take what comes. If you want it to be more philosophical per your role-playing then the new body reflects your past actions rather than your family history. You could even re-train your blood-line (as per the Ultimate Campaign). You're going to be spending coin anyway on a Restoration.

It's always irked me though that druids don't get Restoration but they have Reincarnation which requires it to deal with the side effects.


I really like giving flavor to the rules, but nothing keeps other GMs from ignoring it and sticking to just the rules. It's a matter of preference.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Sure, if the GM decides that the sorcerer must lose all his class levels because he was reincarnated, I'm not going to call him wrong. It's a valid preference, just not one I happen to share.

I'm not sure it's a valid preference because it penalizes the player. I think it's only cool if the player wants, but not if he imposes it without the player's consent.


I just realized this was not in the rules section. So my answers will change. Go with what works for you and your group. Personally I would follow the rules unless a player wanted to change into a new character or have something else storyline related happen. I would never force him to lose spells the game did not intend for him to lose.


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Forcing a character to lose his spells without the rules supporting it and without player's consent sounds like an awful idea to me too.


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Hilarious! I can't wait for the soon to be created "My GM is an a%@@!@~ because he took away all my sorcerer powers because I died"

Man, that one is sure to be a classic!


Lakesidefantasy wrote:
Yes, but what if your bloodline came from an actual bloodline? For instance what if you were the progeny of a devil? And that's where you got your power from.

You had it because of your blood. Now you have it because you are the reincarnation of a sorcerer who had it in their blood.

Or the new body could be created with demon blood.

I could see house ruling that you switch bloodlines if DM and player think it would be thematic and fun.


Captain,
You do realize that everyone who actually argued for this idea stipulated that reincarnate COULD clear bloodlines and further stipulated that it should be agreed to by both player and GM. It is an interesting idea. The description in the class pretty much says that bloodline powers do not have to have anything to do with an actual bloodline protects players from GM abuse, as much as anything can.

The arguments against come down to the idea (mostly valid in this case) that just taking away a bloodline would be unfair and abusive. The interpretation that this blood cleansing would actually take away class levels is seriously overreaching in my opinion, at the very worst interpretation I can get to would be to require retraining to a non-bloodline dependent class, say Arcanist or whatever. Forcing this on an unwilling player would be abusive in my opinion. If the character is a problem to gameplay or story there are better ways to handle it.

What the idea is, this could be used as a mechanic in the evolution of a character.


Kileanna wrote:

Bross, you're mistaking polymorph with reincarnate.

Dragons polymorph, which doesn't change their creature type. Reincarnation changes the creature type. So it's not the same at all.
A polymorphed creature is a creature of its type who has adopted a new shape, but a reincarnated creature is for all intents and purposes a creature of its new type.

I'm not mistaking the spells but was comparing it to the nearest grouping of spells, the ones that actually change your body and as a subtype have the rule

Polymorph effects wrote:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function.

Mainly because its the closest thing to what were looking for in RAW


It's not close because a polymorph spell doesn't change your creature type at all. An elf polymorphed as a human will still be immune to sleep because he's still an elf.
An elf reincarnated into a human would lose his sleep immunity because he's no longer an elf.
In this context, it changes everything, as let's say a Tiefling with an Abyssal bloodline under a polymorph effect would still be a Tiefling, only with a different appearance, so there's no chance he could lose the bloodline.


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Daw wrote:

Captain,

You do realize that everyone who actually argued for this idea stipulated that reincarnate COULD clear bloodlines and further stipulated that it should be agreed to by both player and GM. It is an interesting idea. The description in the class pretty much says that bloodline powers do not have to have anything to do with an actual bloodline protects players from GM abuse, as much as anything can.

The arguments against come down to the idea (mostly valid in this case) that just taking away a bloodline would be unfair and abusive. The interpretation that this blood cleansing would actually take away class levels is seriously overreaching in my opinion, at the very worst interpretation I can get to would be to require retraining to a non-bloodline dependent class, say Arcanist or whatever. Forcing this on an unwilling player would be abusive in my opinion. If the character is a problem to gameplay or story there are better ways to handle it.

What the idea is, this could be used as a mechanic in the evolution of a character.

If they're just looking for a fun way to rebuild a character, then whatever, go nuts.

But, I've too often seen where the player isn't usually involved, and quite often not happy.

I hope it's the first, but we'll see. :-)

If everyone is onboard, go for it. But otherwise it is absolutely NOT the GM's place to arbitrarily change aspects of the player's character (not that that is what you were saying, just felt I had to include the last part for the OP).


I do not feel that reincarnation automatically clears bloodlines.
The big BUT though...
You can't ignore the fact that the dead character can refuse reincarnation, if he doesn't want it to happen, it doesn't. Once accepted, reincarnate by definition arbitrarily changes aspects of the character, so your choice is stay dead, or accept, sight unseen, arbitrary changes. Isn't their a forced version that can be cast on living targets?

Just as GMs can go too far, so can players in demanding total control of every aspect of their characters. You give up some control just sitting at the table and picking up dice.


Kileanna wrote:

It's not close because a polymorph spell doesn't change your creature type at all. An elf polymorphed as a human will still be immune to sleep because he's still an elf.

An elf reincarnated into a human would lose his sleep immunity because he's no longer an elf.
In this context, it changes everything, as let's say a Tiefling with an Abyssal bloodline under a polymorph effect would still be a Tiefling, only with a different appearance, so there's no chance he could lose the bloodline.

If You'd care to supply a closer example that talks about the effects of magic and creature type that would be excellent. Otherwise as a second source talking about changes to a body potentially removing class features this would be the source and it backs us as a collective up on saying that magic is not an aspect of the body.


Bross, Reincarnate is NOT a polymorph effect. You are being born into a new body.
You keep class abilities, which would include bloodline, per RAW.

As Wraithstrike accurately pointed out, This is Not a Rules question.. This is a discussion of an interesting interpretation of the spell. By definition, anything here is a matter of taste. You cannot be RIGHT here, any more than I can. We do not have to prove anything to you, since we aren't trying to posit that this is a universally correct interpretation.

I do disagree with your base assumption that this is a polymorph affect. The transmutation element of the spell is, "The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand." I

If you don't like the idea, fine, we aren't trying to force it on you.


Daw wrote:

Bross, Reincarnate is NOT a polymorph effect. You are being born into a new body.

You keep class abilities, which would include bloodline, per RAW.

As Wraithstrike accurately pointed out, This is Not a Rules question.. This is a discussion of an interesting interpretation of the spell. By definition, anything here is a matter of taste. You cannot be RIGHT here, any more than I can. We do not have to prove anything to you, since we aren't trying to posit that this is a universally correct interpretation.

I do disagree with your base assumption that this is a polymorph affect. The transmutation element of the spell is, "The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand." I

If you don't like the idea, fine, we aren't trying to force it on you.

Okay but I'm not saying it is. I don't know where you got that from me activity saying that's not what I'm talking about in both of my previous posts in the first bloody line

I have never said it is a polymorph effect I have said the closest thing to this spell is spells that fall under that heading. I am fully agreeing with what your saying what I was trying to say is that if it was not clear in the text of the spell we are looking at (Which it is) That spells that create the same effect as a base rule would still support our position.

tl:dr

Rules clear. No say Polymorph. Offer support not argument for no bloodline stays.


Kileanna wrote:
Forcing a character to lose his spells without the rules supporting it and without player's consent sounds like an awful idea to me too.

I agree, but there is actually a way out: Wish or miracle can restore your original form, so very likely also your bloodline powers.

At low level the GM could provide a quest to get this high level favor to happen - but still, the sorcerer wouldn't be much of a sorcerer till it is done. So it might be better to make it happen very soon - for a price that has to be paid in the future (a quest yet to start, a financial loan, binding your soul to Hell, the usual stuff).

Anyway, flavor should improve fun, not decrease it - so I'd be careful with such rulings. Especially since the sorcerer player will notice that the fellow players don't suffer from such obstacles...


OK, per RAW, you don't lose your bloodline powers. We have said this before, we just like the option that it could happen otherwise for story reasons.

You can be as snide as you want: Bross wrote:
Rules clear. No say Polymorph. Offer support not argument for no bloodline stays.

Since we are obviously not in at all the same conversation, and you refuse to see this, I'm done. Feel free to forbid the idea at your own table.


Could swap your bloodline for a nature themed bloodline, as the spell tries to replace the biological elements of the sorcery with it's own energies.


when reincarneted or poly morphed you still retain all class features bloodline is a classfeature so it stays and it doesnt change


I'm amazed that too much people seems to think we are arguing about forcing sorcerers to lose their class features/trade bloodlines, or if it's RAW doing it, when we were just talking about roleplaying opportunities for specific cases.


Milo v3 wrote:
Could swap your bloodline for a nature themed bloodline, as the spell tries to replace the biological elements of the sorcery with it's own energies.

or you could let the player pick a "new" bloodline(could be the same one) and any time they use the old one instead they get to use some kind of "wild magic" rules with random consequences.

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