Tamarack - The Undead Agricultural Giant

[Irranshalee]

Hey guys. I do not have the greatest imagination in the world and I was hoping I could find a few of you to help me with a big problem I have. I have a country that my players are going to be entering and they will likely be there a while. It has a basic concept behind why it exists, but the particulars are not there. And I am not good with particulars, especially on short time.

What I need:

Government
Organizations
Influences

The country is Tamarack. It will eventually grow into an agricultural giant. They have the land and the people to hold it, but not enough workforce or technology to work the land. What they decide to do is raise the deceased and use them as slaves. The skeletons will work inside houses and the zombies will work in the fields.

At this point in history, it is just starting out. The ones in charge need to convince their populace that this is a good idea. Additionally, there has been a war between this human city and an elven land to the east. The humans have been taking elves as slaves. It is hard. Raising undead is easy...just not on the moral scale the bulk of people would be on.

Government

What type of government would allow this? Is a new government taking hold? Maybe it has been ruled by many groups. That is the line I was thinking, but I am not sure of who could be vying for power.

Organizations

What organizations would exist in this type of society?

Afterlife group – people who would comfort families and help them see the good in raising family members as undead. They would try to make others view it as a honor, continuing to serve their families.

Collector's group – people who get corpses. There would be two subgroups: one legitimate, the other would be an underbelly of society. They type that would kill homeless people, infect villages, get paid for killing rivals of other important people.

Creator's group – people who animate and sell the undead as well as the devices to control the undead. Is this dirty work or more religious/clean?

What are these groups called? How do they interact? Are any of them run by an undead? Possibly a vampire? Why would he want to be part of this society?

Maybe the society eventually begins to believe that old age is a curse and the elderly start committing ritualistic assisted suicides?

Influences

Who influences the politics of this country? What groups inside the country are for or against the undead?

The party is from a very far away land that will look down on Tamarack. They are from Kossuth, a LG society that will look to destroy Tamarack. Kossuth is too far away and will not have the resources to wipe Tamarack out before the undead workforce is created. The party is going to Tamarack to research what is going on.

My initial thought about how the government/influences could pull this off was to have an undead plague. People are dying all over the place and the country is running out of people to do the farming work. They would turn to controlling the new undead to save their families. Obviously the plague is caused by the government/influences.

I thought about having the party first stop in a small community (party is lvl 4-5). It would be quarantined. They would eventually figure out that someone was making the undead and it would lead on towards the main city of Tamarack. The party would eventually uncover the plot, stop those behind it, but realize that they cannot stop the tide that was started. They would then return to Kossuth and report.

I think I have some good ideas, but I need to flesh them out. Any thoughts or ideas? Anyone interested in coming up with particulars that could really make this place come alive? It is going to become a linchpin to my world and I would really like this place to shine.

[Irranshalee]

Another huge question, how would society change?

I could definitely see the "unwanted" being killed in hordes. If that did happen, who are the unwanted? How would you not become an unwanted?

[My Self]

Perhaps, instead of resurrecting the mortal remains of dead citizens, why not enslave the corpses of enemies? If you were waging a perpetual war of expansion using the corpses of your enemies, you could amass a lot of land over time.

You would need a state deeply intertwined with their hands all over the social/religious aspect of this. Tampering with your dead is anathema to most human societies. It would also need to be fairly wealthy (25 gp a corpse) to afford undead servants, or at least have a wealthy, immoral spellcasting core who are very public-minded. That is, unless you use one of the methods at the bottom. Communication with the outside would probably need to be limited, to prevent social/religious values from changing, but limited communication would create limited trade, which is bad if you want to be an agricultural nation. Perhaps a less-indoctrinated merchant class would be in charge of trade.

The agricultural peasant class would basically vanish. You'd be left with landlords who made profit and maybe a couple peasant overseers. Agriculture would be almost entirely exported, in massive amounts, given the small number of people needing food (most medieval farmers were sustenance farmers). Undead miners would retrieve ore from more dangerous locations, although intelligent overseers would still be necessary to ensure mines are built correctly and all that. You'd be left with a lot of poor people out of work, some moderately wealthy people doing moderately well, and a bunch of rich people making bank. The poor people would probably end up dead, since the landlord class would have more incentive to have them dead (and able to work 24 hours a day) instead of alive (and working 8-12 hours, requiring food and shelter). Maybe a few groups of peasants would have isolated villages untouched by the government, but for the most part, the peasantry would disappear or flee.

"unwanted" would probably be sustenance farmers, beggars, prisoners, and dissidents. Anybody with a specialized task would retain their specialized task. Living soldiers would not be unwanted, but would cede most of their combat roles to the undead, and you would instead have a class of professional officers who specialize in tactics, instead of having a whole standing army.

Blacksmiths, tailors, and such would still have some business, even with the large number of undead. Undead employed in residential and urban areas would probably be covered from head to toe, as to not seem unusually dead. They would serve as decent watchmen, and would probably be indistinguishable from a human while wearing a full suit of armor, gloves, and a closed helmet. "empty" suits of armor in hallways could become security measures as well as decorative pieces. Wealthier people might have undead as art pieces, with wings, feathers, horns, and other dongles grafted onto their frame. I suspect it would become a somewhat common practice to put masks on undead, to give them a sort of identity. People who wanted to would probably add padding as well, to give a fully covered skeleton the appearance of having flesh. Some people might even get the skeleton of a small animal, and apply padding, cloth, and fur to create an animated sort of stuffed animal. People would do everything they could to push the undead to the far side of the uncanny valley - make undead seem like animated puppets or friendly robots, instead of moving corpses.

Raising the dead would need to be legal and commonplace, possibly formalized. I suspect it would function more like a business transaction and perhaps some sort of corpse auction rather than a ritualistic practice, although certain prominent figures would probably have a ritual resurrection. Churches would be a place of business if the resurrection was done by local Clerics. Alternatively, large churches might have a casting of Cursed Earth applied to it, so the dead could be carted over, buried, and brought back as undead at a flat cost. (10k one time upfront, vs. 25 per corpse). Discounting the spellcasting cost, it would take about 400 corpses to break even, so one such church a couple miles outside of each major city would be a good investment. If you charge 5 sp per corpse buried in such a zone, you could make back your money twice over after a Gettysburg-size battle, and it would be at a ridiculously steep discount.

Slavery in any form would probably disappear, and imprisonment would shrink significantly. Anybody slated for "life in prison" would probably receive capital punishment and end up with "undeath in the fields". Only important political prisoners would be kept. I suspect battle strategies would change as well. Most battles would probably end in victory or defeat, but never surrender for either side. Either your undead kill all your enemies, then make them undead, or your enemies kill all your undead. Taking undead as prisoners is somewhat pointless.

This land would need to be subject to an intense, mythic (10th level+) curse of undeath for it to be economically feasible to do this. Alternatively, an application of Cursed Earth (9th level, 10k gp, unlimited use) would allow people to undead-ify corpses buried within 1 mile of a specific location, but that is too small for an agricultural giant. A custom mythic version of this covering the entirety of your country might work. Either that, or this state has a disproportionate about of black onyx worth a lot, and a large number of necromancers of at least 5th level.

[Daw]

With the conversion of the poor to more desirable undead, you will within a generation or so start have to import "stock" to replace the undead that wear out. Whether they develop a breeding program or continue to import new stock will be about profitability.

The death penalty will tend to be applied more readily.

[My Self]

Daw wrote:

With the conversion of the poor to more desirable undead, you will within a generation or so start have to import "stock" to replace the undead that wear out. Whether they develop a breeding program or continue to import new stock will be about profitability.

The death penalty will tend to be applied more readily.

Or you have undead maintenance, since Repair Undead/Inflict Light Wounds isn't *that* hard to come by.

If there isn't a war, perhaps "stock" can come in the form of prisoner importations. If you somehow manage to get an alliance, you can import other nation's prisoners and undesirables. They get prisoners off their hands, you get more pseudo-citizens.

I doubt breeding programs would be desirable. It would multiply the cost of undeath to human levels, since having babies requires investing in food, water, and shelter, whereas the other method of undeath production does not. It would probably cost more to breed than the upkeep costs of undead. So long as you maintain your undead through regular checkups, only accidents (mine collapse, run over by a cart, fire), sabotage, or deliberate expenditures such as war will reduce your stock of undead. If the undead aren't reduced to 0 HP, they can be fixed; the undead won't simply wear out, they will either be destroyed or repaired. I think it would take longer than a generation, and expansion (natural or aggressive) will provide enough undead to replace those lost from accidents. Worst case scenario, you have to stop farming goods that would have just been exported anyways.

If you did want to start such a breeding program, it would probably cost you 1 sp/day per person (based on the cost of a poor meal/wage of an unskilled hireling), plus upkeep for their home (Maybe included in the 1 sp/day). For the most part, they won't perform much productive labor, but they shouldn't be allowed to die, since they're expected to grow old enough to become useful-sized undead. And they need to grow quickly, as to minimize the time spent unproductively as living creatures. Orcs (12 +1d4 years), Goblins(same), and Kobolds (same) probably fit the bill. Assuming each lives 14.5 years, costs 1 sp/day for their entire life, and becomes a useful undead at no additional cost, each should cost about 529 gp, 2 sp, 5 cp. You'd probably be able to sell (assuming you do want to sell) for 95-190 gp, judging from the cost of zombie slaves in the PPC Black Markets. That's not economical - the corpse costs 50-100 gp in PPC Black Markets, so you'd be better-off buying the corpse and converting it than raising it (although you do have heavily subsidized food).

[Daw]

Don't forget that food prices will be down as supply now seriously exceeds demand,

You will need to work out how much effect anti-undead terrorists will have, all the negative energy in the world won't stop zealots with wands of gentle repose. Holy Water and Cure Light Wounds wads will also be controlled items. Pharasma will be a hunted, underground cult.

[UnArcaneElection]

Take a look at Geb. It does need to be a little bit more fleshed out, though -- the linked article is kind of bare bones.

[Daw]

Geb, along with the whole Nex/Geb rivalry and rampant stupidity won't get you where the OP seems to want to go.

[Lathiira]

Another thought: if the people of your nation think this is a good idea, given a nationalistic spin, it could become possible that the worst penalty for a crime on the books won't be reanimation after death. The worst criminals may get disintegrated to not only ensure no one can ever get them back, but also as a mark of shame. "He wasn't worth keeping around to work the fields!" There could also be a stigma attached to a family with such a person in their background, known associates as well.

[My Self]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Take a look at Geb. It does need to be a little bit more fleshed out, though -- the linked article is kind of bare bones.

Of corpse it's bare bones, even though the site isn't dead, it's not like the wiki people can post all the book content. Though I'd kill for a free, legal source of unaltered Paizo pdfs.

[Irranshalee]

Geb gave me a few helpful ideas. Thanks!

My Self, thank you for all that you wrote. I see a ton of stuff I can work with. I really love the idea of humanizing the undead with masks or making them into pieces of art with horns/wings/etc. That line of thinking will truly make this place feel real.

I do not see Tamarack as a country that wants to expand, but rather to exist. Yet, they do see themselves as better people than those around them. That is why they have been kidnapping the "stinking" elves.

One idea I pulled out that help me is that yes, Tamarack will not require the same amount of food in the future. They will export it. But better yet, they will change their types of crops too. I can see them increasing their market of drugs (tobacco, opium, marijuana, etc). I can also see them shipping food to the desert for gnoll/arden (my meerkat race) corpses.

Thanks guys for an initial burst of ideas. I really appreciate the thoughts. To anyone else reading, please feel free to throw in your two cents.

[Tacticslion]

Dot.

[My Self]

No problem.

Note that people probably wouldn't want to humanize undead, per se. If you look at a graph of the uncanny valley, you'll notice that healthy humans are to the right, while dolls, robots, cartoons, etc. are to the left, and corpses/zombies are in the deepest part of the valley. Undead would probably be pushed to the left and their image would become more lovable pet-like.

Your country would need some sort of advanced infrastructure to be able to store and ship food long distances. Diversifying your goods might help. Fur, cloth, leather, tapestries, and clothing can be transported fairly well. Ore, metal, metalwork, tools, currency, and jewelry is also fairly simple to store. Livestock can be transported on land fairly well (they literally carry their own weight), but overseas might be harder. All food products can go bad fairly quickly, but especially so for fruits, vegetables, meats, eggs, cheeses, and other fresh animal food products. Dried meats would last significantly longer. Grains, spices, herbs, tea, coffee, etc. could be transported fairly easily. Also, art and literature wouldn't be incredibly difficult to export.

The ability to transport food would greatly increase with a large number of available spellcasters. Purify Food and Drink would be a staple, as well as custom spells that create ice permanently or lower the temperature. Whatever poorer folk who were not killed would probably become sailors if possible, given that it requires skill (Profession: Sailor, based on WIS) which skeletons do not have (no WIS). Poorer people would also probably work to produce goods that require skill and experience (or INT and WIS) that undead could not acquire, or be hired by wealthier landlords to provide direction to undead servants. Some lower-class people might still have a job in the construction industry, since most undead are mindless and thus need direction. I suspect your country would have a large ranching industry, given that much of the food wouldn't go towards sustaining your population and would be wasted otherwise. Dirt-cheap food and lavish feasts would be probable. Artisanal goods would be relatively easy to produce and probably cheap, given the abundance of raw materials.

If your country has plenty of ore deposits, you're going to be exporting a lot of ore. Even with a lot of blacksmiths, it would be very difficult to use it all. Transportable food products would probably be your primary export, though. Lots of grains, spices, herbs, tea, coffee, etc. That does include drugs, but those would be a minority compared to the cheap grain. Timber might also be cheap, although I'm not sure how much would be exported versus put into production at home. Your population would probably all flock to cities, while population in the countryside dwindles to just enough people to oversee the undead, and a few sustenance farmers in far-off corners of the country.

Economically, it would be as if you had a bunch of cheap, unskilled laborers that require virtually no food or payment.

Hope you have a good game.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

This sounds like a place where capital punishment is going to be levied for relatively minor crimes as this looks like an evil regime that's in the clamping down hard on dissent, especially as pressures mount.

[My Self]

Overland transportation speed would probably multiply by 3 or 6, since undead can travel all day (24 hours instead of 8), and can constantly hustle (2x speed instead of 1x, for skeletons but not zombies) without fatigue. This wouldn't hold true for large groups of living people or livestock, but a few living people can ride on undead mounts or be carried around in wagons, so caravans with only a few living overseers can travel much faster.

[Irranshalee]

Ore is imported. I need them reliant on others so I have a dwarven mine rich with onyx to the north. Coffee. Another good idea. Maybe if I make enough klava, Vlad Taltos will show up.

[Umbral Reaver]

Would the ruling class be motivated to become undead themselves? In a realm where undead are accepted, some of the powerful undead types may become quite attractive.

[Klorox]

sentient undead are evil, and many are driven to prey on the living, not a good feature even in a country where a large part of the unskilled work force is undead (but thankfully for the living, those undead are largely harmless and do need supervision)

[Irranshalee]

Umbral Reaver wrote:

Would the ruling class be motivated to become undead themselves? In a realm where undead are accepted, some of the powerful undead types may become quite attractive.

Maybe, eventually.

Right now my world is in a very low-level stage so trying to fit in my level constraints is hard. I think what I will do is have a vampire start this entire idea off with a small necromancer cult. The cult will secretly convince the party to kill the vampire and take over control of the undead production. The party will believe that they ended the threat, later to find out that it is not gone.

[Daw]

So, essentially Geb, with the change that they off Geb while he is still inspirational, and not letting him drag everything down in his madness. Will be interesting in several generations, early on it is a target for PCs.

[Irranshalee]

Daw wrote:

So, essentially Geb, with the change that they off Geb while he is still inspirational, and not letting him drag everything down in his madness. Will be interesting in several generations, early on it is a target for PCs.

Yes, to some extent. I do not foresee a strong presence of intelligent undead in power.

[T.A.U.]

This reminds me about the D&D 3.5 Empyrea planar setting published by Asterion Press in Italy.
One of the external planes, Aedea, was basically an Undead Kingdom. Although I'm not sure if it was ever translated in english (as Mongoose Publishing did for their other setting, Neaphandum).

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Umbral Reaver wrote:

Would the ruling class be motivated to become undead themselves? In a realm where undead are accepted, some of the powerful undead types may become quite attractive.

What would motivate them?. Undead as described aren't so much accepted, but used as machines and common labor and are worked until they fall apart. They're zombies and skeletons, and the latter are disguised to hide what they are.

That's not acceptance of undead as people.

[Umbral Reaver]

Living forever is a pretty strong motivator.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Umbral Reaver wrote:

Living forever is a pretty strong motivator.

Not as a mindless shambling piece of bone or shuffling flesh which is the only undead the OP has been talking about being used in this nation. This nation isn't Geb where undead are citizens. It's a nation where undead are used as mindless machine labor. Not exactly an exalted status.

[Irranshalee]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Umbral Reaver wrote:

Living forever is a pretty strong motivator.

Not as a mindless shambling piece of bone or shuffling flesh which is the only undead the OP has been talking about being used in this nation. This nation isn't Geb where undead are citizens. It's a nation where undead are used as mindless machine labor. Not exactly an exalted status.

I am sure the ones in power would at least consider what it means to be a lich/ghost/vampire/etc. After all, when you dabble (or indulge) you tend to be more accepting. Some of the higher ups might choose to forgo an afterlife for a life on the mortal realm. Additionally, they would be the ones with the best information on how to avoid being discovered.

Yet with that said, I do not see any undead more powerful than zombies or skeletons being allowed on the streets. And definitely not welcomed as a leader. It would have to be a coup of some sort or a behind the scenes type of thing. I am not interested in the former.

[My Self]

This sort of practice of undeath would probably initiate because of a naturally occurring phenomena that makes undeath cheap, easy, and/or probable, since the social aspect of it would be very difficult to reconcile. If there was a naturally occurring area of Cursed Earth (as the spell), I could imagine businesspeople wanting to exploit that. But I can't see it becoming a reliable industry if it requires dealing with business partners who have very compelling ethical and security issues over doing this deal. If I were a fantasy-medieval dwarf, I'd be scared out of my mind about an army of undead on the other side of the border, both by the military strength, and the fact that they're a bunch of walking dead. It's possible for their nation to be dependent in other ways, such as if another country controls the waterways. A landlocked, urban nation with the only dependable waterways being rivers that flow through other countries would suffer if its neighbors decided to block access.

[Dalindra]

You can also check The Golgari Swarm

[Melkiador]

If you start this practice in a millennia old culture that's been entombing their dead the entire time, then you will already be sitting on generations of material. Your culture may even be suffering issues with most of the land just being graveyard, so getting rid of that dead space would be welcome. It's almost like a fossil fuel at that point. It might take centuries of undead creation before you have to start looking for new sources.

[RDM42]

My Self wrote:

Perhaps, instead of resurrecting the mortal remains of dead citizens, why not enslave the corpses of enemies? If you were waging a perpetual war of expansion using the corpses of your enemies, you could amass a lot of land over time.

You would need a state deeply intertwined with their hands all over the social/religious aspect of this. Tampering with your dead is anathema to most human societies. It would also need to be fairly wealthy (25 gp a corpse) to afford undead servants, or at least have a wealthy, immoral spellcasting core who are very public-minded. That is, unless you use one of the methods at the bottom. Communication with the outside would probably need to be limited, to prevent social/religious values from changing, but limited communication would create limited trade, which is bad if you want to be an agricultural nation. Perhaps a less-indoctrinated merchant class would be in charge of trade.

The agricultural peasant class would basically vanish. You'd be left with landlords who made profit and maybe a couple peasant overseers. Agriculture would be almost entirely exported, in massive amounts, given the small number of people needing food (most medieval farmers were sustenance farmers). Undead miners would retrieve ore from more dangerous locations, although intelligent overseers would still be necessary to ensure mines are built correctly and all that. You'd be left with a lot of poor people out of work, some moderately wealthy people doing moderately well, and a bunch of rich people making bank. The poor people would probably end up dead, since the landlord class would have more incentive to have them dead (and able to work 24 hours a day) instead of alive (and working 8-12 hours, requiring food and shelter). Maybe a few groups of peasants would have isolated villages untouched by the government, but for the most part, the peasantry would disappear or flee.

"unwanted" would probably be sustenance farmers, beggars, prisoners, and dissidents. Anybody with a specialized task would...

I would think, instead, you would start training the most intelligent peasants rigorously into 'skilled trades' that could not be done by undead. Swordsmiths, armorsmiths, craftsmen, etcetera. heavy searches for bright and wise peasants that could be converted to necromancers and priests. If that is the basis of your economy.

[RDM42]

One alternate spin would be to have it start in the aftermath of an effect like the plague. Someone starts re animating the dead just to have enough workers because of all of the dead, and it starts snowballing from there.

[Irranshalee]

Melkiador wrote:

If you start this practice in a millennia old culture that's been entombing their dead the entire time, then you will already be sitting on generations of material. Your culture may even be suffering issues with most of the land just being graveyard, so getting rid of that dead space would be welcome. It's almost like a fossil fuel at that point. It might take centuries of undead creation before you have to start looking for new sources.

I never thought of that. I can use it. Thanks!

[Irranshalee]

RDM42 wrote:

One alternate spin would be to have it start in the aftermath of an effect like the plague. Someone starts re animating the dead just to have enough workers because of all of the dead, and it starts snowballing from there.

My plan is to start it off as a man-made (vampire made) plague at this point.

[Irranshalee]

RDM42 wrote:

My Self wrote:

Perhaps, instead of resurrecting the mortal remains of dead citizens, why not enslave the corpses of enemies? If you were waging a perpetual war of expansion using the corpses of your enemies, you could amass a lot of land over time.

You would need a state deeply intertwined with their hands all over the social/religious aspect of this. Tampering with your dead is anathema to most human societies. It would also need to be fairly wealthy (25 gp a corpse) to afford undead servants, or at least have a wealthy, immoral spellcasting core who are very public-minded. That is, unless you use one of the methods at the bottom. Communication with the outside would probably need to be limited, to prevent social/religious values from changing, but limited communication would create limited trade, which is bad if you want to be an agricultural nation. Perhaps a less-indoctrinated merchant class would be in charge of trade.

The agricultural peasant class would basically vanish. You'd be left with landlords who made profit and maybe a couple peasant overseers. Agriculture would be almost entirely exported, in massive amounts, given the small number of people needing food (most medieval farmers were sustenance farmers). Undead miners would retrieve ore from more dangerous locations, although intelligent overseers would still be necessary to ensure mines are built correctly and all that. You'd be left with a lot of poor people out of work, some moderately wealthy people doing moderately well, and a bunch of rich people making bank. The poor people would probably end up dead, since the landlord class would have more incentive to have them dead (and able to work 24 hours a day) instead of alive (and working 8-12 hours, requiring food and shelter). Maybe a few groups of peasants would have isolated villages untouched by the government, but for the most part, the peasantry would disappear or flee.

"unwanted" would probably be sustenance farmers, beggars, prisoners, and dissidents. Anybody with a

...

Another good thought, but it first needs to take hold and be accepted.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Melkiador wrote:

If you start this practice in a millennia old culture that's been entombing their dead the entire time, then you will already be sitting on generations of material.

However lacking modern preservation techniques, only the more recent corpses would be intact enough for use.

[Melkiador]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Melkiador wrote:

If you start this practice in a millennia old culture that's been entombing their dead the entire time, then you will already be sitting on generations of material.

However lacking modern preservation techniques, only the more recent corpses would be intact enough for use.

Mummies are thousands of years old. Skeletons can last for thousands of years if the climate is arid.

[Irranshalee]

Melkiador wrote:

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Melkiador wrote:

If you start this practice in a millennia old culture that's been entombing their dead the entire time, then you will already be sitting on generations of material.

However lacking modern preservation techniques, only the more recent corpses would be intact enough for use.

Mummies are thousands of years old. Skeletons can last for thousands of years if the climate is arid.

And the beauty of this area is that it has only been populated for a few hundred years. I can have those skeletons and "mummy" zombies as an initial burst that would let me get to a settled, secured market. This country has to be able to withstand the attacks from other countries and the party.

The three major areas that could be opposed and had strength to do something about it are:

Jord Karn - A dwarven mine that will be supplying onyx at a steep rate to Tamarack. This group of dwarves are known to do business with all races including duergar and drow. They are a neutral people and not very well liked by their brothers in other Jords, but they just live too far away to be of an immediate concern for the other goodly folk. In fact, most of the western nations are newly established and tend towards survival/neutral beliefs. The eastern nations have been there a long time and have grown into good or evil nations. For several reasons the two have not been in contact with each other. That has just changed with the party finding a pass to the west.

Ter'sai - This is the elven nation that Tamarack has been warring with. If they have not been able to take out Tamarack yet, they will not be able to do it with a newly created undead army. They will seek help elsewhere, but it will be too little too late.

Vellune Lands - a conglomerate of loosely associated states shifting in power based on those that rule. They will not join together in time to wipe Tamarack out. And if they did, they would not be organized enough. Their lands are also riddled with banditry that definitely keeps them busy on a daily basis.

[Klorox]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Melkiador wrote:

If you start this practice in a millennia old culture that's been entombing their dead the entire time, then you will already be sitting on generations of material.

However lacking modern preservation techniques, only the more recent corpses would be intact enough for use.

If the country is fairly dry, with good preservation conditions, the bones should be intact and makable into skeletons.

IN a wetter climate, freshr corpses will be needed

[Narquelion]

Irranshalee wrote:

One idea I pulled out that help me is that yes, Tamarack will not require the same amount of food in the future. They will export it. But better yet, they will change their types of crops too. I can see them increasing their market of drugs (tobacco, opium, marijuana, etc). I can also see them shipping food to the desert for gnoll/arden (my meerkat race) corpses.

Linen and cotton are also potentially interesting crops. They need to be woven, too, which could become a local industry - or not.

[Claxon]

When I think about this I imagine a burgeoning merchant class with skilled workers maintaining/decreasing slightly based on their type of work. There will be less people (more on that in a second) so less demand internally for goods, but huge potential for exports.

Imagine hordes or undead working in assembly lines on more complex goods, but breaking down each step or task to single undead performing the work unceasingly.

Those who can control undead will be at the top of the pyramid. I would expect most people to start training to be capable of raising and controlling undead.

I would expect the "poor and working class" to basically almost entirely disappear. Their normal role in society would be performed by undead, and they would either be turned into undead or move away once they realize they cannot support themselves. If the government is evil they probably start rounding up the populace and turning them into undead. If they aren't evil they might let them be until they die naturally or move away.

I would expect a tax to keep the corpse of a person from being turned into an undead (one that is too high for poor people to afford to pay). On the order of about 100 gp.

[Irranshalee]

Narquelion wrote:

Irranshalee wrote:

One idea I pulled out that help me is that yes, Tamarack will not require the same amount of food in the future. They will export it. But better yet, they will change their types of crops too. I can see them increasing their market of drugs (tobacco, opium, marijuana, etc). I can also see them shipping food to the desert for gnoll/arden (my meerkat race) corpses.

Linen and cotton are also potentially interesting crops. They need to be woven, too, which could become a local industry - or not.

That would definitely be a good idea to keep humanoids involved. I cannot see a skeleton doing intricate work.

[Irranshalee]

Claxon wrote:

When I think about this I imagine a burgeoning merchant class with skilled workers maintaining/decreasing slightly based on their type of work. There will be less people (more on that in a second) so less demand internally for goods, but huge potential for exports.

Imagine hordes or undead working in assembly lines on more complex goods, but breaking down each step or task to single undead performing the work unceasingly.

Those who can control undead will be at the top of the pyramid. I would expect most people to start training to be capable of raising and controlling undead.

I would expect the "poor and working class" to basically almost entirely disappear. Their normal role in society would be performed by undead, and they would either be turned into undead or move away once they realize they cannot support themselves. If the government is evil they probably start rounding up the populace and turning them into undead. If they aren't evil they might let them be until they die naturally or move away.

I would expect a tax to keep the corpse of a person from being turned into an undead (one that is too high for poor people to afford to pay). On the order of about 100 gp.

I am going to keep the poor around. I want to have a black market for undead. I like the idea of a tax to keep the poor down. It makes sense for Tamarack people.

[Claxon]

You can do what you like certainly, but it doesn't make much sense for the poor to be around. You're going to be filling all the roles the poor would traditionally do with an undead labor force.

Not to say that the poor would immediately disappear. Some would definitely try to learn new trades, some would leave for other countries. Some would die out. There would probably be a transition period where the poor would flock to cities and be begging in the streets, if you wanted to go that direction. In my opinion though, the conditions for the poor should be bad, on the verge of death and being wiped out.

It's actually a problem the modern world is going to face soon with automation. We are reaching a point where robots can do a lot of jobs more quickly and accurately than most human workers, and we are poised on a point of eliminating a lot of jobs that support much of the population. Unless the government does something specifically to keep these people cared for, they will be bereft of income/food/well being.

Both in your country you are imagining and in the real world.

Perhaps in your world you can encourage the poor to join military service. I believe I read something about protracted wars with a neighbor. Maybe you can say the government allows anyone who joins the military service not to be turned into an undead after service instead of paying the tax, or maybe if they achieve a certain rank within the service. This keeps a steady supply of soldiers coming in, with the never ending war providing a method of distraction and direction for what would be massively unemployed groups of people.

I assume that the majority of bodies would be claimed from the enemy and would supply the undead servants which serve as the labor force of the country.

[Klorox]

the poor might still be there, they might be the underpaid class of undead supervisors, tasked with checking that the undead keep working efficiently and ordering them around if they start having bugs over their last orders.

[My Self]

Irranshalee wrote:

And the beauty of this area is that it has only been populated for a few hundred years. I can have those skeletons and "mummy" zombies as an initial burst that would let me get to a settled, secured market. This country has to be able to withstand the attacks from other countries and the party.

The three major areas that could be opposed and had strength to do something about it are:

Jord Karn - A dwarven mine that will be supplying onyx at a steep rate to Tamarack. This group of dwarves are known to do business with all races including duergar and drow. They are a neutral people and not very well liked by their brothers in other Jords, but they just live too far away to be of an immediate concern for the other goodly folk. In fact, most of the western nations are newly established and tend towards survival/neutral beliefs. The eastern nations have been there a long time and have grown into good or evil nations. For several reasons the two have not been in contact with each other. That has just changed with the party finding a pass to the west.

Again, I want to bring up the fact that the method of transforming people into undead needs to be relatively cheap compared to the alternatives. If your country was wiped out by a plague, the alternative would be to get foreigners to move in, settle, and farm, which many might do because of the prospect of cheap land. I assume your land isn't difficult to access or inhospitable, given that it is supposed to be an agricultural trading nation, so people would probably be glad to move in. If it's a business venture, the businesspeople had better expect to turn a profit within their lifetime, hopefully within a few years (longer for elves, undead, etc.) If you want to have undead be practical options, the dwarves can't be gouging your country on onyx prices, unless you subscribe to the idea that you only need to have spent 25 gp on onyx, instead of having a certain minimum mass of onyx that is typically worth 25 gp. If nobody else is buying onyx in bulk, the Dwarves can still turn a tidy profit, since the sales price is always necessarily higher than the cost to extract.

[My Self]

Klorox wrote:

the poor might still be there, they might be the underpaid class of undead supervisors, tasked with checking that the undead keep working efficiently and ordering them around if they start having bugs over their last orders.

But unless manual labor jobs multiplied exponentially, you're not going to have enough jobs for each peasant to become an overseer.

[Melkiador]

If the poor are being mistreated, I would expect a resistance of some kind. Maybe groups of vigilantes going around and killing the undead while no one is watching.

[Claxon]

Klorox wrote:

the poor might still be there, they might be the underpaid class of undead supervisors, tasked with checking that the undead keep working efficiently and ordering them around if they start having bugs over their last orders.

Some poor people would transition into supervisors of undead.

But I'd imagine you might have 10 undead per supervisor, so you're probably going not going to have enough enough undead and enough activity to employee even a majority of the of the poor worker class people. Among the former unskilled labor force, maybe 10% them would continue to have employment as the labor force was mostly converted to undead.

Melkiador wrote:

If the poor are being mistreated, I would expect a resistance of some kind. Maybe groups of vigilantes going around and killing the undead while no one is watching.

Which results in counter actions by the government where-in the suspected criminals and their families are killed to replace the destroyed undead, in a vicious (but fun to RP) cycle.

Basically I'm imagining "What would North Korea and Kim Jong-Il do if they could convert their people to unthinking unfeeling robots."

[Claxon]

A sort of "Beatings will continue until morale improves setting", except where that's more literal.

[Set]

Irranshalee wrote:

Afterlife group – people who would comfort families and help them see the good in raising family members as undead. They would try to make others view it as a honor, continuing to serve their families.

Collector's group – people who get corpses. There would be two subgroups: one legitimate, the other would be an underbelly of society. They type that would kill homeless people, infect villages, get paid for killing rivals of other important people.

Creator's group – people who animate and sell the undead as well as the devices to control the undead. Is this dirty work or more...

Random thoughts;

1) There are associations with undead and disease or vermin, in some settings, and some instances (plague zombies, ghoul fever, kyuss worms). While, mechanically, negative energy is antithetical to life, and a zombie, infused with negative energy, would be bacterial-free and sterile, as a result, not all settings or scenarios make that assumption, and have zombies be carriers of plague, because it's more important to the agenda of the writer that zombies be gross than that the mechanics of the game or setting be consistent.

Using zombies as agricultural labor, as a result, might be problematic. Even if the zombies are 100% sterile, there are going to be folk-with-agendas who are going to spread stories about zombie-harvested grains or fruits (or cloth made from zombie-harvested cotton or linen) spreading plague, making it harder to export and market such produce. As a result, even if the GM decides that negative energy is consistently antithetical to life, and that animated corpses are therefore sterile, the *belief* that 'zombies are dirty' could affect the culture's ability to sell their goods.

2) Skeletons and zombies need to be controlled, and there's not going to be nearly enough clerics around to handle that. You've already mentioned that undead control 'devices' will have to be part of the base assumption, with some 'overseers' having badges or control rods or some similar means of keeping a small number of skeletons under their control. (Skeletons, incidentally, do just about as much work as efficiently as zombies, and only require half the 'control rating' (being 1 HD), so, IMO, they'd be far more commonly chosen. They also don't 'look like dead people,' and would be marginally more acceptable to the public than seeing uncle Ned's stinky rotting corpse baling hay, or, worse yet, having to pick up the occasional bit that fell off of him, or drive off the crows that attempt to pluck a chunk off to eat.) The nature of these undead control talismans, or other means to control undead (risky pyramid schemes in which an undead overseer is able to control twice it's own HD in lesser undead, is controlled, could also be attempted, with the inevitable disaster...) could also add a bit of flavor, if the 'control rod' for instance is carved of bone, or includes a bunch of thin leather cords wrapped around a small bone or tooth from each skeleton controlled by that staff or scepter or necklace or whatever. Who makes these items? Divine casters, of a religion that is okay with undead, such as a Neutral god of wealth, such as Abadar or Waukeen, coldly practical and somewhat mercenary about the use of 'gilded men,' or a darker faith that is more than okay with undead, such as Asmodeus, Bane or Chardun (slavery *beyond* death!) or one that deals in death and undeath, such as Wee Jas or Urgathoa would be one option. Arcane casters could also work, with the command undead spell being a precedent for creating such items. Perhaps the region is built on an ancient battleground, used for centuries, and bone oracles and / or undead bloodline sorcerers tend to crop up with unusual frequency, compared to other sorts of oracles or sorcerers.

3) Convincing folk to 'sign up.' Some sort of financial in-life advantage could be granted by the government in exchange for use of their body after their natural death. This sort of thing is explored in the Scarred Lands supplement, Hollowfaust, and would probably be a useful book for you to flip through, if you can find a cheap copy online or on the used rack at your local gaming shop or whatever. (In that city, run by non-evil Necromancers, people wanting the protection the city offers must agree to a law that their bodies become property of the city, to be animated to defend the city from the local equivalent of gnolls, serpentfolk, etc. but also has strong laws ensuring that nobody comes to collect early. The city will protect your life diligently, but once you're dead, they come for your bones...) A less benevolent sort of place might be very mercenary about it, and sentence someone to donate their body upon death in exchange for various debts, or as a routine punishment for even the most innocuous of local violations. Shady moneylenders or operatives might 'buy' someone's use of their body after death as collateral, or extort it from someone, to then sell to the community (or simply keep possession of the rights, to use the body after your death, as their own personal skeleton/zombie slave). Shadier-than-usual individuals might prefer to not wait for their investment to vest, and move things along by arranging for an 'accident,' or infecting clients with plague, etc...