Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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You don't have to end the scenario on the same gameday that events in the scenario conclude. You can resolve ability damage by continuing to play out a game week of rest.
Yes, ability damage is a condition. You are not obligated to pay for restoration any more than you are obligated to end a scenario at maximum hp.
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It's the same with some diseases. They can't kill you outright, but you might need some oversight, with severely lowered dexterity for instance. This can represented by playing out a rest period just before handing out the chronicles.
Basically, somebody needs to change your crapped bedsheets or even feed you. Better treat your companions right or it'll be like a trip to a Victorian almshouse.
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If you can heal naturally from a condition without any outside effects, simply by sleeping, then nothing needs to be resolved because time is ambiguous between scenarios.
If, however, you need to make saving throws, even if ultimately the ability damage could not kill your character, then you need to resolve the condition before you play the character again. And you can't just assume you'll eventually make the requisite saving throw(s). Even non-killing ability damage could result in death, because no matter how well cared for, coma's can cause death.
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If you can heal naturally from a condition without any outside effects, simply by sleeping, then nothing needs to be resolved because time is ambiguous between scenarios.
If, however, you need to make saving throws, even if ultimately the ability damage could not kill your character, then you need to resolve the condition before you play the character again. And you can't just assume you'll eventually make the requisite saving throw(s). Even non-killing ability damage could result in death, because no matter how well cared for, coma's can cause death.
That seems unnecessarily vindictive and counter to how the vast majority of GMs rule. If you are suffering from an ongoing poison, disease, etc that deals Con damage, then yes you have to resolve it. Otherwise, it's a matter of eventually making a save even if your ability score is dropped to one. There are no game rules that result in death from extended periods of unconsciousness unless you, as the GM, decide the PC is left alone without any care and dies from exposure or malnourishment or something similar. IMO that is not demonstrating what a Gam is supposed to be, nor encouraging fun or the three tenets of PFS
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That seems unnecessarily vindictive and counter to how the vast majority of GMs rule. If you are suffering from an ongoing poison, disease, etc that deals Con damage, then yes you have to resolve it. Otherwise, it's a matter of eventually making a save even if your ability score is dropped to one. There are no game rules that result in death from extended periods of unconsciousness unless you, as the GM, decide the PC is left alone without any care and dies from exposure or malnourishment or something similar. IMO that is not demonstrating what a Gam is supposed to be, nor encouraging fun or the three tenets of PFSIf you can heal naturally from a condition without any outside effects, simply by sleeping, then nothing needs to be resolved because time is ambiguous between scenarios.
If, however, you need to make saving throws, even if ultimately the ability damage could not kill your character, then you need to resolve the condition before you play the character again. And you can't just assume you'll eventually make the requisite saving throw(s). Even non-killing ability damage could result in death, because no matter how well cared for, coma's can cause death.
I don't feel it's vindictive at all. Diseases are factored into a creature's CR. And if the end result is handwaved without resolution then you cheapen the challenge of the creature.
I'm not saying you Mark the character dead. I believe spellcasting services for remove disease are 150 gp. Even a 1-2 offers enough gold to pay for several of those.
Edit: We've had this discussion many times over the years Bob. If I were inclined to be offended by a potential implication, I might feel your comments were calling into question whether I was a good or fair GM or not. There are ways to handle the discussion of disease resolution at the table that don't require me being a jerk. There are ways to require resolution that definitely represent what a GM stands for and the three tenets of the society.
Vindictiveness usually requires some emotional state of wanting revenge, spite or to get back at someone. Not sure how requiring a resolution incorporates any of that.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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I don't feel it's vindictive at all. Diseases are factored into a creature's CR. And if the end result is handwaved without resolution then you cheapen the challenge of the creature.
I'm not saying you Mark the character dead. I believe spellcasting services for remove disease are 150 gp. Even a 1-2 offers enough gold to pay for several of those.
Except your tactic doesn't actually work and even at low tier range Remove Disease can be completely useless unless you up the cost significantly.
EDIT:I know of one scenario where I would have had to find a CL 20 cleric to even have a 50/50 shot of the spell working at level 5 and that was something that would have killed my character off.
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So if I'm a player at the table and I have a non-Con damaging disease active at the end of the scenario, what if I say I just want to roll out my saves? Nothing in the rules says I am forced to pay for a remove or any other services and even if I fall unconscious, it is not life-threatening so I just continue to roll until I save. Then over the course of indeterminate time, I recover fully. Do you really want to sit an watch me roll until the condition resolves or is it worth a hand waive?
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So if I'm a player at the table and I have a non-Con damaging disease active at the end of the scenario, what if I say I just want to roll out my saves? Nothing in the rules says I am forced to pay for a remove or any other services and even if I fall unconscious, it is not life-threatening so I just continue to roll until I save. Then over the course of indeterminate time, I recover fully. Do you really want to sit an watch me roll until the condition resolves or is it worth a hand waive?
This has been the rebuttal every time. I don't find it a valid one because it completely ignores why I'm making the argument to begin with.
Starvation and dehydration have rules. If you are in a coma, those can affect you, even under care.
As for rolling it out, real l I feel time constraints will have an affect on how long you can just roll.
Most players I've had actually choose paying for casting services vs wasting everyone's time rolling. But to each thier own.
Hand waving something is a "just to be nice and a softy" action and has nothing to do with being a good GM or cooperation. I feel it devalues the challenge of a creature.
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I don't feel it's vindictive at all. Diseases are factored into a creature's CR. And if the end result is handwaved without resolution then you cheapen the challenge of the creature.
I'm not saying you Mark the character dead. I believe spellcasting services for remove disease are 150 gp. Even a 1-2 offers enough gold to pay for several of those.
Except your tactic doesn't actually work and even at low tier range Remove Disease can be completely useless unless you up the cost significantly.
EDIT:
I know of one scenario where I would have had to find a CL 20 cleric to even have a 50/50 shot of the spell working at level 5 and that was something that would have killed my character off.
I don't recall a low level disease DC that's high enough that you have a better than 50% chance of success at a caster level 5 spell.
And the scenario you are referring to mitigates the really high DC with research mechanics. It's a season zero or one and isn't super well thought out, so as a GM you allow for creative solutions to solve the problem.
But other than that one scenario, I don't recall any tier including 5, as having a DC tgat requires a caster level 20 to have even a chance at success. And if thier were, that's exactly the one you don't want to handwave. Except for that one scenario where it can get really unfair if you have the wrong assortment of characters by chance.
Being a softy should be circumstantial based on trying to be fair, not the default based on potential inconvenience.
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I've seen it run both ways, and appreciate the GMs that accept that the time between scenarios is 'vague and undefined' and therefore fair game for clearing non-Con damage.
It's not damaging to the CR, imo, if there's a potential in-play issue (Say, STR drops to below able to carry all gear, for one). THAT is where the challenge is, not in recovering from the effect.
Treading too far into 'Making characters PAY for EVERYTHING' category turns it into a very antagonistic environment and is somewhat detrimental to the spirit of organized play, IMO.
Having seen at least two campaigns where the stated modus operandi of the campaign leadership was 'Let's see how hard we can screw the characters', I'd prefer not to see PFS go that route?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I figure that if you can make it back to a pathfinder lodge, they'll feed you and take care of you until you can recover.
If you should happen to break down to 0 Dex in the middle of the wilderness with no other PCs alive to drag you back to town, well, that would be a special occasion. Even then you could just go for the 5PP body recovery.
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Str damage does not effect carrying capacity.
It's not damaging to the CR, imo, if there's a potential in-play issue (Say, STR drops to below able to carry all gear, for one). THAT is where the challenge is, not in recovering from the effect.
I think it should, but by rules it dosnt. Course if did, a lot of characters would stop moving real quick like, as they are almost overburdened already.
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I had a very long response written, until I realized who I'm "arguing" with. I'm not going to convince you nor vice versa. I'm only going to say, that I believe you will find yourself in the extreme minority on this issue and most players will consider your suggested actions as antagonistic and in the vein of being GM-vs-player. Technically speaking, what you suggest does not violate the game mechanics and since its your table to GM, I'm not going to tell you you're wrong. However, I think it is mean-spirited and I would encourage others not to follow suit. GMs should decide for themselves.
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Fine. The appropriate caster in the party memorizes lesser restoration the next day. Rinse, repeat.
That brings up a question I've had and one I cannot find any specific rules on. Can you use restoration, lesser to temporarily off-set the penalties for an active affliction? Say I have devil chills (1d4 Strength damange, 3 consecutive saves) and a Str of 7, after two days, I've taken 8 points of ability damage which would normally cause me to fall unconscious. Can I get a restoration, lesser to get me back up and functioning even though the illness is still active? If I had access to a daily restoration, lesser that means I could be afflicted with mindfire (1d4 Int, 2 saves) and never manifest any symptoms even if I never succeed on consecutive saves.
What about a temporary fix? Could I get a bull's strength vs. devil chills to make me mobile for a brief period of time?
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I usually like to play out the clearing of any condition, whether or not it is something that would prove fatal.
Mainly because there is almost always at least one player who hasn't dealt with clearing a disease or similar long-term condition before. So if there is time I play it out so they learn what to do when it does matter.
So they hear about using Heal to add to the saving throw vs. a disease. How to provide long-term care to increase the rate ability damage is healed. What spells can clear conditions and what items add to bonuses. What to do if someone does slip into a coma. I tend to do it in a very rapid-fire way, and there are always jokes about the lugging the weakened party member around (some of which end up as permanent notes on Chronicle sheets). If it does end up in a "stalemate" (can't seem to make the roll to get better but isn't in danger of death) then I handwave it.
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Fine. The appropriate caster in the party memorizes lesser restoration the next day. Rinse, repeat.That brings up a question I've had and one I cannot find any specific rules on. Can you use restoration, lesser to temporarily off-set the penalties for an active affliction? Say I have devil chills (1d4 Strength damange, 3 consecutive saves) and a Str of 7, after two days, I've taken 8 points of ability damage which would normally cause me to fall unconscious. Can I get a restoration, lesser to get me back up and functioning even though the illness is still active? If I had access to a daily restoration, lesser that means I could be afflicted with mindfire (1d4 Int, 2 saves) and never manifest any symptoms even if I never succeed on consecutive saves.
What about a temporary fix? Could I get a bull's strength vs. devil chills to make me mobile for a brief period of time?
Why do you feel you need to find specific rules for healing ability damage during a generic, unspecified affliction? A few afflictions specifically call out that their damage can't be cured without resolving something, sure. Most don't.
Why should we assume a problem that the rules are completely silent on?
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Why should we assume a problem that the rules are completely silent on?
If that is directed at my query, the reasoning is, once you are manifesting the illness, you typically don't get better while it is still virulently attacking you. First you have to fight off the source before you can get better.
Its just s subject that has come up at games before. Some claim that you cannot receive any curative effect until the affliction is cured. That may be a hold-over from another game system or an older version of D&D. I dunno. I just have not found anything in the rules, so lacking evidence to the contrary, I allow it (curative effects), even if its temporary.
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I think the official rule now is that you have to resolve the condition, regardless of whether or not it affects you. However, that is not always the case. Waaay back in time, when my paladin was immune to disease, but not curses, I was hit with mummy rot. The GM ruled that I was a carrier since I was cursed, but it would never manifest since I was immune to disease. This table ruling was even approved by the CC at the time.
So, I never cleared it. My pally is now level 15 and technically still a carrier. I like the idea that should I ever fall and lose my paladin powers, I will immediately succumb to the illness. Course it would be up to the table GM to adjudicate whether or not that is legal based on current campaign rules. I am prepared for either extreme of being forced to pay for the remove curse like I should have back when it happened, or to immediately die if it is ruled that years of pent-up disease will hit me all at once and drop my Con to some ridiculous negative number. I just like having the added burden of knowing that I have to be especially careful not to infect anyone else with the illness. He looks at it like the punishment for some past deed that was unpaladin-like but not enough to warrant a loss of powers.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Huh. Learn something new every day. And have a very negative thought on my mind atm about a GM that said it did, but will treat this as gaining knowledge that is important to know.
Str damage does not effect carrying capacity.
I think most people would expect that it does. The rules on what ability damage/penalties don't affect are highly surprising.
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Yeah, Str damage affecting carrying capacity/encumbrance has been an oft-discussed issue over the years. One would think that something that saps your strength would weaken your ability to pick things up and carry them around. However, reading the ability damage section on page 555 of CRB says that Str damage only affects skill checks, melee attack rolls (including CMB/CMD), and weapon damage.
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Yeah, Str damage affecting carrying capacity/encumbrance has been an oft-discussed issue over the years. One would think that something that saps your strength would weaken your ability to pick things up and carry them around. However, reading the ability damage section on page 555 of CRB says that Str damage only affects skill checks, melee attack rolls (including CMB/CMD), and weapon damage.
In other words, things that are just a flat penalty (-1 per 2 points of strength damage).
Pretty sure that particular list exists to speed up the game. Recalculating carrying capacity takes a while and involves finding the table in the book before determining your new capacity.
I personally was interpreting this differently (including carrying capacity) for a long time because the first line of the ability damage section says "but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability." It's only recently that I've come to the conclusion that the lists a couple of paragraphs later are intended to be exhaustive, not just examples.
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I ask, because I play a pestilance sorcerer, and i can be a carrier of diseases, they just dont effect me.
I too have the mummy rot and dont want to pay to clear it.
You do have to clear everything that has a mechanical effect nowadays. It used to be possible to go from scenario to scenario with conditions but it was just to easy to forget (or "forget") about them if you were rarely playing with the same group/GM.
At the end of a scenario, a PC may have been afflicted with any number of possible conditions. If these conditions are resolved before the table breaks up, then you have nothing to worry about. However, if the player is unable to resolve a condition before moving on to the next scenario, you will need to write the condition in the Items Sold / Conditions Gained box and initial next to what you wrote. Please write clearly and legibly at all times, but it’s specifically important that you note conditions legibly as it could cause problems down the line. Later, when the condition is resolved, another GM will list the condition as cleared under Items Bought / Conditions Cleared on the chronicle sheet for the scenario in which the condition was cleared. If the PC purchased the casting of a spell to clear the condition, the GM will need to make sure the player wrote that in the Items Bought / Conditions Cleared box at the bottom of the chronicle. If another PC cleared the condition by casting a spell, it should still be listed in the Items Bought / Conditions Cleared box, but with a 0 gp value and the casting character’s full Pathfinder Society number (XXXX-XX) written in next to the spell’s name.
There were some intermediate steps in 4.0-4.3 then
All conditions gained during an adventure, except for permanent negative levels, ability drain that does not reduce an ability score to 0, and conditions that provide no mechanical effect, must be resolved before the end of the session; if these are not resolved the character should be reported as ‘dead.’
We moved back towards being a little bit more lenient recently
Conditions: Unless noted otherwise, all conditions, including death, gained during an adventure must be resolved before the end of the session. A condition in this context includes an affliction, a negative effect, or an effect that is intended to mechanically affect your character in a negative way. If such a condition isn’t resolved by the end of play, the character should be reported as dead and becomes unplayable. However, a few conditions need not be resolved by the end of play, including permanent negative levels, ability drain that does not reduce an ability score to 0, becoming a fallen member of a class that requires an atonement spell to regain class features or spellcasting abilities, and conditions that impose no mechanical effect. Permanent negative levels, ability drain, and nonmechanical conditions being carried over to the next session should be recorded on the Chronicle sheet.
As for the mummy rot, I believe (though I'm not 100% sure on this) that I have seen at least one ability or spell that affects you differently depending on whether or not you have a curse effect on you. For that reason, I'd say it needs to be cleared. It is "intended to mechanically affect your character in a negative way" even if it doesn't normally do so in your particular case.
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I may be in the minority. That's fine.
But its pretty short-sighted to call it mean-spirited when you've never experienced how I actually handle it. I don't feel its GM vs. Player when you know, follow the rules and mechanics of the game. If presented correctly as a GM, it is simply just part of the adventure and the conflicts and challenges there-in. Not something that as a GM I'm doing "to" you.
Also, while I agree that Strength damage does not affect encumbrance, there is a decent argument that the FAQ that says temporary changes to abilities have the exact same effects as permanent changes because they didn't have the word count to list everything for every ability would actually cause Strength damage to affect encumbrance.
Why? Because its the same list.
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Conditions: Unless noted otherwise, all conditions, including death, gained during an adventure must be resolved before the end of the session. A condition in this context includes an affliction, a negative effect, or an effect that is intended to mechanically affect your character in a negative way. If such a condition isn’t resolved by the end of play, the character should be reported as dead and becomes unplayable. However, a few conditions need not be resolved by the end of play, including permanent negative levels, ability drain that does not reduce an ability score to 0, becoming a fallen member of a class that requires an atonement spell to regain class features or spellcasting abilities, and conditions that impose no mechanical effect. Permanent negative levels, ability drain, and nonmechanical conditions being carried over to the next session should be recorded on the Chronicle sheet.
This is pretty much the language that says a disease that causes any ability damage but Con still must be resolved by the end of the scenario. I suppose a GM hand-waving it is a resolution.
I may be wrong, but I believe, largely, that the reason it has become rather common practice in organized play environments for these to be hand-waved, is because of how precious resources used to be in organized play (PFS is probably the easiest on the pocket book as far as resources that I've seen). Also, time. It used to be even in larger regions, that 4 hours or less was all that you'd have to run a scenario. So literally you would not have time to fully resolve a condition. There are still many regions where time is an issue. The few times I've GM'd where time was critical, I had no problem just handwaving things, because ultimately when time was against you, don't deal with the little things.
But I believe it helps with immersion and verisimilitude (at least it does with me, even as a player) when you don't just say, "oh, you have sewer rot, but that's ok, it just saps your dexterity, so don't worry about it." I prefer, "well, you have this horrible disease that causes your joints to swell up and affect your sense of balance. You have a couple choices, you could try to sweat it out with the help of your allies (heal or lesser restoration) or you could just pay 150gp and take the caster level 5 check vs. the DC."
Also keep in mind, that unless there is a cleric (or other class that can cast lesser restoration at least once a day), you'll have to actually pay for the lesser restorations every single time. Its less expensive to just purchase the remove disease. I typically, as a player, just pay for it.
I don't expect anyone to do something that I'm not willing to do myself.
I've honestly never gotten into an argument with a player about resolving a disease. I'm usually a pretty good judge of whether players are enjoying what I'm doing or not, and I haven't sensed players being upset by how I handle diseases.
But then, if a player asks if they can handle the disease in some "creative way player comes up with" rather than the options I give them, I usually let them play that "creative solution" out. And then they get to have the fun of solving the situation of their own devices and feel successful because of that.
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As a GM a do not like the very situation, when 1st lvl character will not get any gold and no PP, and will have to sell all his gear to pay for spellcasting to cure both the disease and ability damage caused by it. Only because he'd been bitten by a ghoul and didn't manage to roll his saves once. And next time he'll be reported as dead because of 5 points of ability damage at the end of next game, feeling useless all the game.
May be, it is fair and may be (I realy don't think so) this is what rules say. But realy...
It will end with figthers and barbarians, melee rangers and paladins hiding in the corners in fear (not roleplay horror, fear of rules), trying to shoot the villian from afar. With no gear, no chances of resurrection and so on.
Healing ability damage after the scenario is not kind of any challenge.
This is question about healing ability damage (not drain, not disease) between scenarios(not in game). And this is especially critical for 1st lvl characters in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
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Just make sure you charge them for each Remove Disease or Remove Curse that fails to overcome the DC with the CL they pay for.
Yup. I have had a couple players surprised by the fact it wasn't just immediately successful. I learned from that, so now I explain how the spells work if they are unaware, before I have them spend any resources on the spellcasting services.
I have had bad days as a GM. I've learned from them and try not to repeat the same mistakes again.
Learning how to better represent the cost of curing a disease is one of those things.
Just ignoring the cost of curing a disease that is not immediately life-threatening is not something I feel I need to learn how to do.
That being said, there are plenty of times, through the hecticness of filling out chronicles and the joy of players solving the riddle of a scenario, that I've forgotten about diseases until I've gotten home.
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As a GM a do not like the very situation, when 1st lvl character will not get any gold and no PP, and will have to sell all his gear to pay for spellcasting to cure both the disease and ability damage caused by it. Only because he'd been bitten by a ghoul and didn't manage to roll his saves once. And next time he'll be reported as dead because of 5 points of ability damage at the end of next game, feeling useless all the game.
May be, it is fair and may be (I realy don't think so) this is what rules say. But realy...
It will end with figthers and barbarians, melee rangers and paladins hiding in the corners in fear (not roleplay horror, fear of rules), trying to shoot the villian from afar. With no gear, no chances of resurrection and so on.
Healing ability damage after the scenario is not kind of any challenge.
This is question about healing ability damage (not drain, not disease) between scenarios(not in game). And this is especially critical for 1st lvl characters in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
Ghoul fever is not really a great example of what you are trying to say:
Bite—injury; save Fort DC 13; onset 1 day; frequency 1/day; effect 1d3 Con and 1d3 Dex damage; cure 2 consecutive saves. The save DC is Charisma-based.
It does Constitution damage, and you don't actually naturally heal the ability damage from a disease if you still have the disease. You can also die if you take enough Constitution damage.
Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I'm in the minority when it comes to Constitution damaging diseases.
Once the disease is cured, then there is no condition anymore and the ability damage will heal naturally. Of course you don't need to do anything after that during the game session. But the question is, how did the disease get cured? Did it happen by making saves during the game time? Did it happen after the BBEG and before chronicles issued? Did a cleric in the group just say, "well I'll memorize lesser restoration and [/i]remove disease[/i] as many times as I need to per day until its resolved." Great then its resolved. But when all those options are not on the table, 150gp spellcasting services for a Caster Level 5 check vs. the spell's DC. In the case of ghoul fever, that's an 8 or better on the die. A 65% chance everytime you play 150gp. I've seen things go badly with those odds. But as a GM, you can help the players be creative or offer suggestions or depending on location, roleplay grateful townsfolk who send their priest to help you out.
There are all kinds of ways to keep the story immersive and fun for the players without being a jerk about it.
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Also, while I agree that Strength damage does not affect encumbrance, there is a decent argument that the FAQ that says temporary changes to abilities have the exact same effects as permanent changes because they didn't have the word count to list everything for every ability would actually cause Strength damage to affect encumbrance.
This is wrong.
"Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability."
Ability damage does not change abilities nither temporary, nor permanent. It is just danage. And penalties are applied regardless of characters ability score, but depending on the amount of damage, the same way hp damage do not change characters max hp.
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So, I never cleared it. My pally is now level 15 and technically still a carrier.On a totally irrelevant aside I still have fond memories of almost killing Bob's paladin by a grappling Minotaur an an extra-dimensional maze. He was out of Lay on Hands and at single digit HP. I needed a 2+ to finish choking him out and rolled a 1. Bob defeated the minotaur and lived to fight another day.
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Learning how to better represent the cost of curing a disease is one of those things.Let me help you out there. For non-life threatening diseases: just have them be cured.
Rolling dice should only happen when there's risk. If a task will always succeed or always fail, don't roll dice, just describe what happens.
With an infinite period of time, a non-life threatening disease will always be cured eventually. Since we don't care about the time taken, all you're doing is making people with less system mastery waste money and those with system mastery waste time by rolling handfulls of d20s.
Then you are selling yourself short as a storyteller if you don't feel there is a way to make it interesting and brief.
You guys are approaching this as the only way to do this that's fair is to handwave it, and anyone who chooses not to handwave it is obviously being unfair or a dick or petty or whatever. And that, in and of itself, is not a fair assertion at all.