Damascus steel - how many layers?

[Generic Villain]

Hey all. So my Dad has a pretty impressive blade collection, and several examples of Damascus steel (or pattern-welded if we're being all specific). They are definitely not san-mai or Wootz.

Anyway! Is there a way to estimate how many layers of steel are in a Damascus blade? I've looked online and can't find anything. It could be 60 or 600.

[GM_Beernorg]

Divide the blades thickness by the best approximation of the thickness of one layer (which is pretty damned thin :) ) and you can get yourself a decent ball park figure.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Generic Villain wrote:

Hey all. So my Dad has a pretty impressive blade collection, and several examples of Damascus steel (or pattern-welded if we're being all specific). They are definitely not san-mai or Wootz.

Anyway! Is there a way to estimate how many layers of steel are in a Damascus blade? I've looked online and can't find anything. It could be 60 or 600.

I doubt it's that many. The main reason Japanese Katanas had so many layers is because the steel used for them was quite frankly... crap. So the swordsmiths had to result to multiple layers to prevent them from shattering on the first strike.

Damascus Steel however was of considerably better grade.

[Orfamay Quest]

Generic Villain wrote:

Is there a way to estimate how many layers of steel are in a Damascus blade? I've looked online and can't find anything. It could be 60 or 600.

No, as it was up to the sword smith. If his arm got tired after 8 folds (which would produce up to 256 layers), he could just say "the hell with it" and put an edge on the sword. If his arm was a little stronger, he could fold it a few more times.

[John Woodford]

IIRC, it's also the case that with Damascus it wasn't just a matter of fold/beat/fold/beat; it could be twisted and/or chisel-cut and then beaten back into a billet.

[Davia D]

Varies. 60-600 does sound reasonable, if you're talking folding that's 6 to 9 folds, but there's different methods of pattern welding and I think some of them were more about twisting than folding.

The American Blacksmith society does tests where they need to do 300 layer blades.

To figure out the layers of a specific example, I think GM_Beernorg's method of estimating may be best, but there might not be a sure way to tell.

It should be noted that too many and the steel becomes effectively homogenous again, so it's not simply a matter of more = better.

[John Woodford]

Davia D wrote:

It should be noted that too many and the steel becomes effectively homogenous again, so it's not simply a matter of more = better.

What you get, though, is a preferential texture, with grains elongated parallel to the long axis of the blade. This increases its resistance to fracture perpendicular to the long axis--it's easier for a crack to propagate along the boundaries between grains, so having long skinny grains makes the crack have to wander around a lot to get through the blade. (It doesn't help as much against cracks arising from twisting the blade, though.)

[Adam Daigle]

For folks interested in forge folding, check out this article by my bladesmith friend Todd Gdula (who is also the father to at least two of my kitchen knives).

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Adam Daigle wrote:

For folks interested in forge folding, check out this article by my bladesmith friend Todd Gdula (who is also the father to at least two of my kitchen knives).

Some of you folks may know that Trenton is the capital of New Jersey. It is also home to one of the last full time blacksmiths in the country. Fortunately he has an honest to goodness 16 year old apprentice who is looking forward to the day when his name is scratched on the shop's list of owners.

[GM_Beernorg]

That Conan, is the riddle of steel!