Most complex class played?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

I agree ref. Spiritualist... way too many moving parts. I almost went bonkers trying to run the 4th level PFS pregen...


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Rosc wrote:
How the heck do you guys plan for your attack routines on a single character sheet?

Spreadsheets!

I can add a thousand more rows with a few buttons, so it's not hard to write out, in advance, what my modifiers are with every combination of effects I anticipate using.

You can also just set macros for power attack, etc. so you set the field equal to true and it changes all the rest of the numbers as appropriate.

Spreadsheets with thousands of rows? Your GM had better draw up an I-9 for you.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Davia D wrote:
KingGramJohnson wrote:

I just rolled up a Vigilante last week, and I kept telling my group, "there's a lot to juggle here".

She's a kitsune vigilante. Her normal kitsune form is her social persona, and her human form is the vigilante. However, she can stay in human form and just take off the costume and be the "alter ego". Though technically there's only two personas, the kitsune social and the human vigilante, I can run it as three different personas, with two separate alignments. I have to keep track of what weapons to use depending on who she it as the time as she has weapons associated to her vigilante persona. I have to keep track of what abilities to use and when, least people figure out who she is. Then there's the three of four different numbers her disguise can be and when it's which number depending on her persona and form. How to talk like which persona and when. Where you do and don't have renown.

So mechanically, vigilante might not be the most complex, however for role playing there's a lot of stuff to juggle.

You can make it more complex by going a spellcaster archetype, *and* getting some Kitsune tails :)

Hm, Magical Child may be the most complex as that grants a familiar which, itself, has multiple forms.

I actually considered using the Magical Child archetype, as the character I'm playing is on the young side. And you're correct, given the Kitsune possibility of having magical abilities, I could have made her even more complicated. However, when I was developing the character, I was picturing her more of a martial fighter rather than magical, so I went with straight Vigilante.

So, I agree that my vigilante build isn't even the most complicated.


System Mastery Wizard. ;)


Honorable mention: the playtest version of the medium

E.g.:

Quote:

Triune Vessel (Su) : At 11th level, a medium has gained

the ability to channel three spirits into himself at once. The
tertiary spirit must match the alignment or ability score of
at least one of his first two spirits.
If the tertiary spirit does not match the ability score of
either of the first two spirits, the medium gains its spirit
bonus but not its spirit powers.
If the tertiary spirit matches the ability score of the
medium’s primary spirit, the medium gains its lesser spirit
power but not its spirit bonus. At 19th level, he gains the
third spirit’s intermediate spirit power.
If the tertiary spirit matches the ability score of the
secondary spirit, the medium chooses one of the secondary
and tertiary spirits to grant its spirit powers; the other
grants its spirit bonus.

And this was not static. Some of the 18 spirits had abilities that changed things on the fly:

Quote:

Hand-to-Hand (Lesser, Su) : You gain Weapon Finesse as

a bonus feat. When using Weapon Finesse to make a melee
attack and adding your Strength bonus to damage, the Rabbit
Prince counts as a Strength spirit in addition to a Dexterity
spirit. This may cause other spirits to grant you their spirit
powers instead of their spirit bonus.


I have not played any occult classes after the Beta. From all the classes U have played, Inquisitor was the one with the most moving parts.

The spells weren't bad, but then comes the bane, judgements and more.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I'd have to say one of the Occult Adventures classes. I have avoided them for that specific reason.


Arbane the Terrible wrote:
Daw wrote:
First Edition Chivalry and Sorcery Power Word Mage. You got 3 points college credit.

Oh, if we're going to be discussing OTHER games, Champions is probably the most complex I've played.

The all-time winner for complexity is probably Phoenix Command, or maybe Eoris.

Phoenix Command? You never played Leading Edge Games' other creation Swords Path/Glory, advanced. The unit of time was 1/12 of a second. The length of the sleeves of your chain hauberk affected how fast you went, as did your weapon and they type of blow. You know how deep your blow went, if it hit bones or arteries, and exactly how much damage it took to blow through a target.


Probably my current Sacred Fist with Inquisitor VMC. Three resource pools each with multiple effects plus spells, and War blessing and Judgement allow different effects from round to round.

Also, in my particular situation the Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes +1 Agile works on only some of my flurry attacks each round, so different adders to hit and damage within the attack sequence. Boar Style chain means keeping track of number of hits so I can tear flesh, but 1 or 1+ is pretty trivial after all of the above.


Philo Pharynx wrote:
Arbane the Terrible wrote:
Daw wrote:
First Edition Chivalry and Sorcery Power Word Mage. You got 3 points college credit.

Oh, if we're going to be discussing OTHER games, Champions is probably the most complex I've played.

The all-time winner for complexity is probably Phoenix Command, or maybe Eoris.

Phoenix Command? You never played Leading Edge Games' other creation Swords Path/Glory, advanced. The unit of time was 1/12 of a second. The length of the sleeves of your chain hauberk affected how fast you went, as did your weapon and they type of blow. You know how deep your blow went, if it hit bones or arteries, and exactly how much damage it took to blow through a target.

Rolemaster

Every weapon had it's own to-hit/damage chart vs. each AC.

All character advancement was done via development points, including to-hit, hit points, and spell lists acquired.


boh, it wasn't that complex to make a character... running a fight, that was the true horror.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Alakallanar wrote:

Honorable mention: the playtest version of the medium

E.g.:

Quote:

Triune Vessel (Su) : At 11th level, a medium has gained

the ability to channel three spirits into himself at once. The
tertiary spirit must match the alignment or ability score of
at least one of his first two spirits.
If the tertiary spirit does not match the ability score of
either of the first two spirits, the medium gains its spirit
bonus but not its spirit powers.
If the tertiary spirit matches the ability score of the
medium’s primary spirit, the medium gains its lesser spirit
power but not its spirit bonus. At 19th level, he gains the
third spirit’s intermediate spirit power.
If the tertiary spirit matches the ability score of the
secondary spirit, the medium chooses one of the secondary
and tertiary spirits to grant its spirit powers; the other
grants its spirit bonus.

And this was not static. Some of the 18 spirits had abilities that changed things on the fly:

Quote:

Hand-to-Hand (Lesser, Su) : You gain Weapon Finesse as

a bonus feat. When using Weapon Finesse to make a melee
attack and adding your Strength bonus to damage, the Rabbit
Prince counts as a Strength spirit in addition to a Dexterity
spirit. This may cause other spirits to grant you their spirit
powers instead of their spirit bonus.

I should have considered that one in my entry given that Mark finished writing the Harrowed Medium and it has been played internally at Paizo in its completed state.

#RemindsPaizoOfMyOpenWalletPolicyWithThisVersionOfMedium


Ugh. Long story short, don't min-max a gestault character.

Magical Girl vigilante + summoner and leadership; these things modified the pet, which was a familiar/eidolon with levels of magus.

Grand Lodge

Davia D wrote:
KingGramJohnson wrote:

I just rolled up a Vigilante last week, and I kept telling my group, "there's a lot to juggle here".

She's a kitsune vigilante. Her normal kitsune form is her social persona, and her human form is the vigilante. However, she can stay in human form and just take off the costume and be the "alter ego". Though technically there's only two personas, the kitsune social and the human vigilante, I can run it as three different personas, with two separate alignments. I have to keep track of what weapons to use depending on who she it as the time as she has weapons associated to her vigilante persona. I have to keep track of what abilities to use and when, least people figure out who she is. Then there's the three of four different numbers her disguise can be and when it's which number depending on her persona and form. How to talk like which persona and when. Where you do and don't have renown.

So mechanically, vigilante might not be the most complex, however for role playing there's a lot of stuff to juggle.

You can make it more complex by going a spellcaster archetype, *and* getting some Kitsune tails :)

Hm, Magical Child may be the most complex as that grants a familiar which, itself, has multiple forms.

Better yet, make the Familiar a Mauler so that each of those forms has two separate modes!

(Foxes make the best Maulers too, which is a plus.)


Inquisitor has a good archetype. Preacher lets you ignore all those pesky teamwork feats and gives you a decent replacement.


I feel somewhat ridiculous linking to one of my posts, but here's a few criteria I might use when evaluating a character, since I'm too lazy to retype it all. The most important ones were build complexity, numerical complexity, and playtime complexity. These could be summarized by the questions: "Are there a lot of build choices, and is it difficult to find the best one(s) among them?", "Are there a lot of conditional adjustments to make, both in and out of battle? (i.e. Is the Excel spreadsheet going to require a Phd to read?)", and "Are there a lot of decisions to make, from a large pool of options?"

High-level theorycraft-optimized Wizards strike out on all of these counts: Lots of build decisions, through access to bonus feats or exploits, in addition to the largest (and still growing) spell list. Lots of numbers from varying-duration buffs with mysterious conditionals and different effects. And more spell options than you have levels vying for your standard action, each with varying effects that you can alter further via your feats/exploits/school/other spells/etc.

In addition to the wall of text linked, number of dice rolled should be a criteria in determining in-game complexity. There's nothing more satisfying than rolling a pile of d6s to crush the final boss of your campaign, but it's certainly annoying to tally and can suck up a decent amount of playtime (ever wonder why combat took twice as long as roleplaying?). There's a pretty big playtime difference between a Warrior 1 and an Enlarged Hasted gestalt UMonk of the Mantis//Cleric (Luck domain) that is unarmed + shuriken full attacking while wearing a Gory AOMF in terms of how many dice (piles of d2, d3, d6, d8, d20, etc.) you will be rolling in a turn.


Mulgar wrote:

I play warpriests, inquisitors, wizards, and a magus/ninja in PFS. I have found two things to be invaluable in playing these:

The buff deck it absolutely wonderful.

you can download a wonderful pdf file from Dyslexic Studios at http://charactersheets.minotaur.cc/ and it has specially designed sheets for individual classes. I have to connections to these guys but I LOVE their sheets. Makes it much easier to track things on complex classes.

I used one of these sheets for the first time last night. At six pages long it was a little weird navigating around it looking for the right information. I still havent found where languages are supposed to be listed so i just added them to the bottom of the skills list. Also, playing a Sanctified Slayer, there isnt really a good place to make note of Studied Target and the whole Judgement page goes to waste. But i get that you cant account for all the archetype craziness on sheets this specific.


I tried out my Anger Inquisition Sanctified Slayer at level 6 last night. It was as involved as i thought it would be, balancing three different uses of swift or immediate actions (Hurtful, Hateful Retort, Bane) against studied target, spells and rage along with swapping out the new teamwork feat for whatever synergy looked best at the moment made for careful tracking of action economy and lots of resource pools. But man, all of those options really gives the character some staying power!

Grand Lodge

Serisan wrote:
Summoners and brawlers are among the most complex I see simply because of the number of situational tools in their respective swiss army knives. Occultist comes in not far after that.

I limit my UC Summoner to only summoning elementals. :D Flavor trumps all.


My issues with magus were never about how its abilities interact within the magus class, but how they interacted with other feat options, and then keeping track of all the available swift actions and whether I used an immediate action last round, blah, blah, blah.

I'm still wrapping my head around kineticist, but mostly because I've yet to play one. Seeing it in the book is one thing, but a class always makes more sense to me once I've seen it in play.


Vanykrye wrote:

My issues with magus were never about how its abilities interact within the magus class, but how they interacted with other feat options, and then keeping track of all the available swift actions and whether I used an immediate action last round, blah, blah, blah.

I'm still wrapping my head around kineticist, but mostly because I've yet to play one. Seeing it in the book is one thing, but a class always makes more sense to me once I've seen it in play.

In play the kineticist has been pretty straight forward for me, you only have a few options to play with since you are only getting a single talent per level and most options play with Burn instead of competing swift/immediate actions. Tracking Burn point by point has been pretty easy in practice too even though i was concerned by it when first reading the class.

Grand Lodge

A shaman can have a different build everyday. Has a familiar, hexes, up to 3 spell list to manage, spells from 2 spirits one that changes daily.

Healer, debuffer, buffer, save or die, crafter, etc everyday a different character.


Druid. Aka spreadsheet simulator

Full spell casting
Animal companion
Spontaneous summons
Wildshape
Optional magic item crafting
Plenty of skill points

Thankfully, you only need to understand one or two of those to be effective but all those options are there.

The Exchange

Shaman adding Spirit Talker into the mix on top of everything mentioned for picking another new hex each day. Be a half-elf and add Paragon Surge to your spell list for even more feat options.

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