Quick Question - Gauntlets


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Spoiler:
I have seen many contradictory threads about what applies to gauntlets and what does not, with developers chiming in to state their intent for what similar items do, (or possibly what gauntlets do, its unclear).

Gauntlets in their description say "This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets." they also come under "unarmed attacks" in the weapons chart.

However, there have been developer comments saying that spiked gauntlets, cestus, rope gauntlets and possibly gauntlets should be treated as light melee weapons instead.

I am unclear as to what the up-to-date ruling for gauntlets are, so:

1) Are they treated as unarmed strikes or light melee weapons?
2) Do i need improved unarmed strike to avoid AoO?
3) Do they benefit from all the feats that effect unarmed attacks (dragon style etc)


1)light melee
2)no
3)no


Lady-J wrote:

1)light melee

2)no
3)no

So the idea of them being purely light melee weapons now is the most recent and accurate ruling?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I don't see anything in the FAQ section that corroborates what Lady-J is saying. There was supposed to be a gauntlet/unarmed strike FAQ last year, but it never materialized.

They enhance unarmed strikes, you need Improved Unarmed Strike to not provoke, and unless it says otherwise, they work with unarmed style feats.


Dark Midian wrote:

I don't see anything in the FAQ section that corroborates what Lady-J is saying. There was supposed to be a gauntlet/unarmed strike FAQ last year, but it never materialized.

They enhance unarmed strikes, you need Improved Unarmed Strike to not provoke, and unless it says otherwise, they work with unarmed style feats.

See what I mean by contradictory? :)

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

This is a good walk through

The only recent change was a dev email to herolab saying they were unarmed strikes, but the follow up clears up the misuse of "strike" instead of "attack".

An old SKR post says light melee, which would be required for +1 gauntlets and weapon focus gauntlet to be a thing. We have unique weapons as "+1 gauntlet" and we have feats that require weapon focus gauntlet as a prerequisite.

So the expected FAQ should clarify:
Can you take WF gauntlet and can you make +1 gauntlet?
AoMF enhances gauntlet attacks.
20th monk with gauntlet deal 1d3/1d4 and not monk damage.
They are not unarmed strikes but make your US lethal.


I was expecting this to get clearer, not muddier...

So we're all waiting on a FAQ to clear things up properly?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

SillyString wrote:

I was expecting this to get clearer, not muddier...

So we're all waiting on a FAQ to clear things up properly?

What parts are unclear now?

The only part I know about is the:
Can I make a +1 gauntlet?
Can I take Weapon Focus Gauntlet?

It's only unclear because we have "unofficial" posts by SKR saying yes, and the possibility of an "official" but "unofficial to us" reply to HeroLab saying no.

The other questions should be clear, just not widely understood.


So its identical to an unarmed strike, with the exception of monk damage? (is that all? does it otherwise function identically for everything else?)

And how could you not be able to take weapon focus gauntlet? it's even a prereq for shield gauntlet style...

Need to be 100% clear on the rules because I plan to play the character, what may be clear to you isnt yet to me :)

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

SillyString wrote:

So its identical to an unarmed strike, with the exception of monk damage? (is that all? does it otherwise function identically for everything else?)

And how could you not be able to take weapon focus gauntlet? it's even a prereq for shield gauntlet style...

Need to be 100% clear on the rules because I plan to play the character, what may be clear to you isnt yet to me :)

Gauntlet are only similar to Unarmed Strikes because both are unarmed attacks.

Remember that Unarmed Strike != Unarmed Attack != Gauntlet != Held Touch Spell.
They are all unarmed attacks, but some are considered "armed".

We don't know if the Weapon Focus Gauntlet in Spiked Gauntlet Style is an error.

We also don't know if the items said to be "+1 gauntlet" should have been "+1 spiked gauntlet" items.

Everything else, we should be clear on how it works. Is there a specific question you have?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
James Risner wrote:
We don't know if the Weapon Focus Gauntlet in Spiked Gauntlet Style is an error.

I think you mean shield gauntlet style, which I doubt weapon focus gauntlet is an error given the fact the feat is specifically relating to gauntlets.

In regard to whether or not I have a specific question, no, I'm trying to get a full understanding of what exactly a gauntlet is in the rules and how it works so I'll know what feats to take and how to build a character around them.


gauntlets are weapons they are no more an unarmed strike than a longsword is.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lady-J wrote:
gauntlets are weapons they are no more an unarmed strike than a longsword is.

Source?

Because CRB says otherwise:

Gauntlet wrote:
This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.


dragonhunterq wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
gauntlets are weapons they are no more an unarmed strike than a longsword is.

Source?

Because CRB says otherwise:

Gauntlet wrote:
This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.

if they were they would need improved unarmed srtike to work which they dont as you are armed for wearing gauntlets, and if they were level 20 monks would get their 2d10 damage while wearing them which they do not.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

dragonhunterq wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
gauntlets are weapons they are no more an unarmed strike than a longsword is.

Source?

Because CRB says otherwise:

Gauntlet wrote:
This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.

That doesn't say they are unarmed strikes.

They are gauntlets that are considered unarmed attacks with additional features.


It'd be annoying if you couldn't enchant your gauntlets and had to use an AoMF.

Likewise it seems odd for them to errata out weapon focus with gauntlets...

Quote:
"This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack."

4) Does this mean with gauntlets equipped you can make unarmed strikes or "gauntlet unarmed attacks"?

5) Does a gauntlet unarmed attack benefit from brawling armor?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Don't worry. About 6 months ago we were told that real soon, like next week soon, we'd have a FAQ covering this gauntlet and unarmed attack deal. So like, soon.

Or you know you could always post it as a bug to herolab and then get the answers from them, since they have the fast track.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

This issue really bothers me because I'm constantly told that "Pathfinder isn't a legal document" or that "you shouldn't try to read the rules technically" or "you should use common sense, not 'RAW'" when talking about Pathfinder.

But then we have unarmed attacks with gaunltets that are different and distinct from unarmed strikes modified by gauntlets which are weapons but maybe they don't count as weapons and all of the various bits of insanity surrounding this issue.

and it's just... what the hell, paizo?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

The whole "how thick can the gloves that my monk wear to protect her hands when punching fire monsters be without turning off her monk stuff" issue is one that keeps having me come back to wanting a revision of the core rules.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Yeah it almost seems like the rules say what they mean when they want the answer to be the rules, and then they say it's not to be read to closely when they messed up the rules and want it to work differently.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

SillyString wrote:

It'd be annoying if you couldn't enchant your gauntlets and had to use an AoMF.

Likewise it seems odd for them to errata out weapon focus with gauntlets...

Quote:
"This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack."

4) Does this mean with gauntlets equipped you can make unarmed strikes or "gauntlet unarmed attacks"?

5) Does a gauntlet unarmed attack benefit from brawling armor?

4) Read gauntlets. They are not unarmed strikes. They modify your unarmed strikes, to be lethal but in no other way are they or are they associated with unarmed strikes.

5) Absolutely. Brawling enhances all Unarmed like AoMF.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Chess Pwn wrote:
Yeah it almost seems like the rules say what they mean when they want the answer to be the rules, and then they say it's not to be read to closely when they messed up the rules and want it to work differently.

If they come back with "you can't use weapon focus and you can't have a +1 gauntlet" I'll agree with you, it would be confusing.

If they come back with WF works, +1 gauntlets doesn't stack with AoMF, and brawling works, it's not unarmed strikes (but does modify them to be lethal), then it will be "exactly like the rules have been saying and meaning for years".


James Risner wrote:
4) Read gauntlets. They are not unarmed strikes. They modify your unarmed strikes, to be lethal but in no other way are they or are they associated with unarmed strikes.

Oops, I worded that poorly, I meant "can I alternate between using unarmed strikes and gauntlet unarmed attacks if i'm wearing gauntlets?"

I'll assume yes, given that they "modify your unarmed strikes to be lethal", but I was just checking :)


I think the idea was that a gauntlet deals lethal damage but still provokes an attack of opportunity except if you are skilled in unarmed combat like a monk or have an equivalent ability.

So EET IS NOT SO BAD. A fighter needs improved unarmed strike to not provoke AOO when striking with a gauntlet. Gauntlets aren't listed as light weapons. I see them listed in the "close" weapon group in Ultimate Combat, along with brass knuckles and the cestus. But I don't see "close" given any explanation except as a group name.

A monk's special weapons use the same bonuses (unchained or not) and can be switched with unarmed strikes as wished. But a gauntlet isn't a monk weapon, because a gauntlet would be partial armor. So a monk doesn't always have to fight with his bare hands to get his special benefits, unchained or not.

I haven't used the brawler at all so I am not sure how this fits in between a monk and a fighter with improved unarmed strike.


I just looked at the brawler. The brawler gets to use the "close" weapon group with his flurry, mixing it with unarmed strikes as he wishes. Gauntlet is listed in the close weapon group. It is also listed as a light melee weapon in Ultimate Equipment -- although not in the Core book (6th printing I have).

Maybe the part of armor / hand slot issue is what is keeping the weapon-like enchantments and combat feats away. There are quite a number of magical gauntlets in Ultimate Equpment that aren't listed as weapons, although they do neat things sometimes related to combat.
Quote: The hand slot consists of gauntlets, gloves, and other items that can be worn on the hands.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

SillyString wrote:
James Risner wrote:
4) Read gauntlets. They are not unarmed strikes. They modify your unarmed strikes, to be lethal but in no other way are they or are they associated with unarmed strikes.

Oops, I worded that poorly, I meant "can I alternate between using unarmed strikes and gauntlet unarmed attacks if i'm wearing gauntlets?"

I'll assume yes, given that they "modify your unarmed strikes to be lethal", but I was just checking :)

When wearing a gauntlet you can Unarmed strike, you can gauntlet attack using AoMF, you may or may not be able to make silver gauntlet attacks (FAQ should cover), you may or may not be able to weapom focus gauntlet (instead of "Unarmed attack" not "Unarmed strike").


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
PossibleCabbage wrote:
The whole "how thick can the gloves that my monk wear to protect her hands when punching fire monsters be without turning off her monk stuff" issue is one that keeps having me come back to wanting a revision of the core rules.

Well that's the thing. You can use your gauntlets to make lethal unarmed strikes. Or make an unarmed attack that's totally different with a gauntlet.

Which means if James' is correct a level 10 monk with a +1 adamantine gauntlet could punch someone and choose to either deal 1d3+1 damage that pierces DR/Adamantine with a +1 bonus to attack rolls, or 1d10 damage without the +1 to attack rolls and without piercing any special DR (ki strike applies either way though).

And while that may be more consistent, it's still fairly nonsensical if you're attempting to read the rules casually like we're supposed to.

But Paizo seems really scared of letting people get enhanced unarmed strikes without AOMF.


swoosh wrote:
But Paizo seems really scared of letting people get enhanced unarmed strikes without AOMF.

which makes litterally no sence as casters get the power to warp riality at a whim.... multiple times per day

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

swoosh wrote:
level 10 monk with a +1 adamantine gauntlet could punch someone and choose to either deal 1d3+1 damage that pierces DR/Adamantine with a +1 bonus to attack rolls, or 1d10 damage without the +1 to attack rolls and without piercing any special DR (ki strike applies either way though).

+1 that's how I see it and consistent with clarifications in 2015 and back.

swoosh wrote:
But Paizo seems really scared of letting people get enhanced unarmed strikes without AOMF.

I play a lot of monk like characters. I'd really like to see this changed.


swoosh wrote:
But Paizo seems really scared of letting people get enhanced unarmed strikes without AOMF.

Which really makes no sense since "monks don't require as much money to gear up" isn't exactly going to make them overpowered, and your really scary builds that want an AoMF aren't going to be able to wear gauntlets on their claws, animal forms, etc.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Quick Question - Gauntlets All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.