Is this PFS legal? (Death knell shenanigans)


Pathfinder Society

51 to 74 of 74 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Did someone say they were serving cats?

I mean, they're not very filling, but if somone's offering it'd be rude to refuse.

-mondo!


Jessica Price wrote:
Feral wrote:

Sacrificing living things has been a part of human culture since like... forever. It's a part of every major religion (that I'm aware of) including the Christian bible.

Death Knell is evil because it's explicitly named as such. Sacrificing a living creature for other purposes - say for a nature oracle's natural divination - is not necessarily.

Sacrificing living things has indeed been part of many major world religions*. Which doesn't mean that all animal sacrifice is automatically acceptable/normal/moral/non-evil in the fictional world we've created.

That said, even if we say that sacrificing animals isn't automatically evil, there's a difference between killing them and torturing them, and drowning cats isn't the most humane way to kill them.

*For the record, many of the religions that do/did practice animal sacrifice have regulations (shechita in Judaism, zabiha in Islam, jhatka in Hinduism, etc.) designed to ensure that the animal died as close to instantaneously as possible, and was not aware of what was coming, in an attempt to ensure that it didn't suffer.

So don't look to real-world religions to try to justify yourself here--both because this is a fantasy world and not the real world, and because most of those real-world religions would view subjecting even the animals they sacrifice(d) to that sort of slow, painful death as wrong.

Don't be a jerk.

I don't believe that Feral was being a jerk. Some people upthread said that all animal sacrifice was evil (which seems erroneous for the very reason of the humane sacrificial practices that you mention here.) He (Feral) was merely pointing out death knelling kittens is not the only form animal sacrifice can take, and that labelling all such acts as evil is a bit presumptuous, as some other posters have.

In that, I don't disagree with him. It does seems an outgrowth of cultural imperialism to label acts that don't fit easily into what that (imperialistic) culture takes to be normative as evil/wrong.

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

How about we take it a different way?

Odds are a given character attempting this at a given table will be trying to advertise what they are doing to the discomfort of other players in an effort to be 'edgy'.

So let's just walk past this misunderstood rules application and grow from what we've learned already and focus on something more positive?


^^That, I definitely agree with: "don't do things only to specifically upset the people with whom you spend time for the lolz."


Just say no to EdgeLords.

-j

3/5 5/5

Kevin Willis wrote:

Death knell stacking is debatable. The caster level bonus is untyped and each casting is technically a separate spell (which can be considered a separate source). Expect table variation.

If two copies of the same spell are separate sources, when would anything count as the same source? There would be no point to having a same-source rule.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

whew wrote:
Kevin Willis wrote:

Death knell stacking is debatable. The caster level bonus is untyped and each casting is technically a separate spell (which can be considered a separate source). Expect table variation.

If two copies of the same spell are separate sources, when would anything count as the same source? There would be no point to having a same-source rule.

I don't disagree with you (notice I said later on that I don't think it's intended to work that way). But there are arguments made all the time about this subject, mainly because the CL bonus is untyped. It falls into the typical "do you parse the sentence in the least restrictive way?" debate. Some GMs may allow it.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Sammy T wrote:
1) Intentionally purchasing living creatures to sacrifice would be an evil act.

Everybody knows cats don't have souls. Knowing this, how could it be an evil act?

Dark Archive 1/5

I would say that this, excluding all the moral ramifications, wouldn't work and that it falls under the vampirism touch faq about temp hitpoints. For those who don't want to find it. It says that while the temp hitpoints from vampiric touch are untyped, they do not stack with temp from other uses of the touch. The reasoning for that rule seems to imply that an untypedal caster level bonus would not stack either.

5/5 5/55/55/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
MisterSlanky wrote:
Sammy T wrote:
1) Intentionally purchasing living creatures to sacrifice would be an evil act.
Everybody knows cats don't have souls. Knowing this, how could it be an evil act?

If that's the case then they can't power the spell :)

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:

I'm not sure the "same effect at different strengths doesn't stack" really applies in this case - I think that's more aimed at situations where mutiple Color Sprays don't give you a more severe blindness or stunnedness.

I do remember Mike making a ruling about the availability of NPC spellcasters with spectacularly high CL. For example, to Make Whole a destroyed +4 weapon you'd need a CL 24 caster. He said that an NPC priest could amp up his CL that high with a series of Death Knells.

However, that had the feeling of an intellectual exercise that happens between NPCs offstage to justify them being able to do something, not necessarily something PCs should be able to leverage for everything.

It would be amazing if you could find that post, so we can ask the Campaign Leadership to make a new one.

Mike basically signed off on handwaving an NPC casting Make Whole at the appropriate CL. He never mentioned anything about Death Knell.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Sammy T wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:

I'm not sure the "same effect at different strengths doesn't stack" really applies in this case - I think that's more aimed at situations where mutiple Color Sprays don't give you a more severe blindness or stunnedness.

I do remember Mike making a ruling about the availability of NPC spellcasters with spectacularly high CL. For example, to Make Whole a destroyed +4 weapon you'd need a CL 24 caster. He said that an NPC priest could amp up his CL that high with a series of Death Knells.

However, that had the feeling of an intellectual exercise that happens between NPCs offstage to justify them being able to do something, not necessarily something PCs should be able to leverage for everything.

It would be amazing if you could find that post, so we can ask the Campaign Leadership to make a new one.

Mike basically signed off on handwaving an NPC casting Make Whole at the appropriate CL. He never mentioned anything about Death Knell.

Thank you for finding the exact post, that makes things easier and we can just assume, that there are plenty of fairy dragon sorcerers around or just enough witches with the coven hex... or just someone with a belt of "because I say so " ^^

Project Manager

7 people marked this as a favorite.
Ixos wrote:
I don't believe that Feral was being a jerk. Some people upthread said that all animal sacrifice was evil (which seems erroneous for the very reason of the humane sacrificial practices that you mention here.) He (Feral) was merely pointing out death knelling kittens is not the only form animal sacrifice can take, and that labelling all such acts as evil is a bit presumptuous, as some other posters have.

The "don't be a jerk" wasn't for Feral. It was echoing the whole idea that if you try this at a PFS table, you're being a jerk, so don't do that.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Everybody knows cats don't have souls. Knowing this, how could it be an evil act?
If that's the case then they can't power the spell :)

Well there's my table argument for why "no".

5/5 5/5

MisterSlanky wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Everybody knows cats don't have souls. Knowing this, how could it be an evil act?

If that's the case then they can't power the spell :)

Well there's my table argument for why "no".

What if we used very small rocks?

4/5

Kevin Willis wrote:
whew wrote:
Kevin Willis wrote:

Death knell stacking is debatable. The caster level bonus is untyped and each casting is technically a separate spell (which can be considered a separate source). Expect table variation.

If two copies of the same spell are separate sources, when would anything count as the same source? There would be no point to having a same-source rule.
I don't disagree with you (notice I said later on that I don't think it's intended to work that way). But there are arguments made all the time about this subject, mainly because the CL bonus is untyped. It falls into the typical "do you parse the sentence in the least restrictive way?" debate. Some GMs may allow it.

yes, it's debatable. It's old text before things were as restrictive or over-parsed as they are now. Personally it's up to the table GM in PFS. The limit is going to be how many spells you have, the failed saves, and the time it takes to do all this (as duration on the First casting is ticking). It's really a matter of taste. Turning the tables would players complain if NPCs start doing this all the time? lol...

Cats are just a poor word choice for the example that is going to attract ire. Let's choose protozoa, amoeba, tadpoles, or fleas.

I still think that game balance is going to rear it's ugly head as it is a more basic concern. Is EVIL going to grant a spellcaster all this mojo for some dead fleas and a second level spell?
Personally I think it would stack IF you are sacrificing something worthy of stacking (sentient beings of 1HD or better).

In a home game the spellcaster is going to get a visit from an agent sent by his patron after dispatching his bag of tadpoles. A balance is due and will be collected.

In PFS, a simple game, the simple conservative decision is going to be NO, they don't stack. Sacrificing people is Evil and it will be the last act as a PC in the PFS format.

Community & Digital Content Director

4 people marked this as a favorite.

Removed a few abusive posts and locking.

Dark Archive 4/5

Chris Lambertz wrote:
Removed a few abusive posts and locking.

I completely agree, but the locking part got left out...

(feel free to delete this when it does get locked!)

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Yo! Read before you post. This thread is on lockdown!

Do not make Chris angry. You would not like her when she is angry.

Paizo Employee 3/5 * Organized Play Coordinator

5 people marked this as a favorite.

Leg is absolutely correct. Don't make Chris angry.

John posted the PFS reply on the first page. As the OP asked if this was legal, and John replied, the matter is resolved.

I've locked the thread. Cheers!

51 to 74 of 74 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Organized Play / Pathfinder Society / Is this PFS legal? (Death knell shenanigans) All Messageboards
Recent threads in Pathfinder Society