greatclub + shillelagh + enlarge person = how many dice?


Rules Questions

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a great club is a 1d10. shillelagh makes it act as if it where two sizes larger which is 3d8. and enlarge person makes you large along with your weapon size. and since the chart does not show whats next would it be 4d6?


Nay, you instead instantly gain a level of the Mystical Path Game Breaker!

Either 4d6 or cap it at 3d8. I can see people arguing either one.


4D8 would be the damage dice.

Grand Lodge

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A greatclub is not a valid target for shillelagh. If it was, a Medium club's damage increases to 2d6, as it says in the spell description.

On the other hand, a Large club would go from d8 to 3d6+1 to 4d6+1.


Fair enough on the whole "greatclub" thing. Shillelagh is a lame spell anyway.


a greatclub is still a club i see no reason why it couldnt be affected and the damage would be 4d8


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Greatclub doesn't have text that says it counts as a club, so it doesn't work.


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it says it in its name. that's like saying toothpaste is not paste because it does not have a descriptor like glue does, both are pastes. or swords and katanas *warning may dispence cuts*


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Doesn't matter. Spell says it works on Clubs and Quarterstaves, nothing else.

If somebody wields a Greatclub or a Bo Staff, it won't work with them.

Also, if Greatclubs and Clubs are the same, then why do they have different entries in the weapon table?


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Greatclub doesn't have text that says it counts as a club, so it doesn't work.

The dead condition does not say I cannot attack.

Swords to not specify they are made of metal.
Pants do not exist.

Sometimes you have to apply common sense.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Doesn't matter. Spell says it works on Clubs and Quarterstaves, nothing else.

If somebody wields a Greatclub or a Bo Staff, it won't work with them.

Also, if Greatclubs and Clubs are the same, then why do they have different entries in the weapon table?

Actually the spell targets a nonmagical oak club or quarterstaff. Since you can't by or get an oak club the spell is only good for quarterstaffs.

That being said a club is a club IMO.


But you can, because your club can be made from oak. The oak part is the material, not the name of the weapon.

Clearly, stretching what weapons shillelagh affects to include greatclubs is just asking for the same sort of shenanigans one can pull off with racial weapon proficiencies that include weapons with a race's name in them.


Per RAW, the spell only works on a club or quarterstaff.

If I was GMing, I'd definitely allow it on a greatclub.


lol. Please, show one spot in the rules where oak is a material your club can be made of. I mean what if I want my club to be hedge (which is a very nice hard wood). By RAW the club from the equipment list is wood (not oak) so they are not leagal shillelagh targets

Edit: I mean can you even show that oak is a type of tree on the Pathfinder world. Just because they are a real tree doesn't mean they exsist in the game world. And yes I do believe it is a typo or unentened but it is there in black and white.


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Nevan Oaks wrote:

lol. Please, show one spot in the rules where oak is a material your club can be made of. I mean what if I want my club to be hedge (which is a very nice hard wood). By RAW the club from the equipment list is wood (not oak) so they are not leagal shillelagh targets

Edit: I mean can you even show that oak is a type of tree on the Pathfinder world. Just because they are a real tree doesn't mean they exsist in the game world. And yes I do believe it is a typo or unentened but it is there in black and white.

I offer up the same argument for most swords. With the exception of longswords, swords are not specified as being made of metal and are therefore not eligible to be made from admantine or mithral (or any other special material that specifies only objects made of metal are eligible).


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Snowlilly wrote:
Sometimes you have to apply common sense.

I already did. That's why I made the rhetorical question about why Greatclubs and Clubs are different entities in the weapon table, even though they're apparently the same thing: Because you're trying to say a Greatclub is a Club.

Is a Greatclub a one-handed simple weapon that does 1D6 Bludgeoning damage like a Club? No. It's a two-handed martial weapon that does 1D10 bludgeoning damage, which a Club isn't, and is denoted as being a separate item on the weapon table. This means they're separate things, irrelevant of one another, and as such, you need specific exceptions that let you treat Greatclubs as Clubs.

Don't try to give people advice you don't heed to yourself.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Don't try to give people advice you don't heed to yourself.

Perhaps you are familiar with the term reductio ad absurdum.

I simply demonstrate how, if we follow your advice and assume everything that is not explicitly stated does not apply, the games breaks at its most fundamental levels.

Stating a greatclub is not a club is the same as stating a longsword is not a sword.

A greatclub is a specific type of club, just as a bastard sword is a specific type of sword. We can make the assumption that the club is made of oak, just as we can assume the bastard sword is made of metal. Neither is specified in RAW, but the game starts to fall apart without the application of common sense.

Spoiler:
Club, Great wrote:
This larger, bulkier version of the common club is heavy enough that you can’t wield it with one hand. It may be ornate and carved, reinforced with metal, or a simple branch from a tree. Like simple clubs, greatclubs have many names, such as cudgels, bludgeons, shillelaghs, and more.

You really should read weapon descriptions, not just the tables. The greatclub is specified as being a type of club.

Paizo Employee Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

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The spell's level takes into account a certain amount of damage-boosting for its spell level, namely from 1d6 to 2d6 (or from 1d8 to 3d6 if Large). Allowing it to boost the damage dice of a greatclub by two sizes would certainly be powerful—likely more powerful than a 1st-level spell should be.

If a player were intent on targeting a greatclub with shillelagh (normally not a valid target), I'd likely just give it statistics as though the base weapon had been a club (i.e. 2d6 damage).


Snowlilly wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Don't try to give people advice you don't heed to yourself.

Perhaps you are familiar with the term reductio ad absurdum.

I simply demonstrate how, if we follow your advice and assume everything that is not explicitly stated does not apply, the games breaks at its most fundamental levels.

Stating a greatclub is not a club is the same as stating a longsword is not a sword.

A greatclub is a specific type of club, just as a bastard sword is a specific type of sword. We can make the assumption that the club is made of oak, just as we can assume the bastard sword is made of metal. Neither is specified in RAW, but the game starts to fall apart without the application of common sense.

** spoiler omitted **

Yes, I am. But that's no excuse to take my argument and extend it to other, irrelevant rules questions. I'm not posing that the dead condition still lets you act. I'm not posing that swords aren't made of metal (though wooden, trainer swords are certainly possible to be made, and have historical and realistic implications). I'm not posing that trousers don't exist as an item. And none of these are relevant to me posing that Greatclubs, as their own separate item, aren't Clubs, which are their own, distinct item, separate from a Greatclub. Changing the subject to clearly undefined things with obvious answers does nothing to aid your argument; the burden of proof that Greatclubs are Clubs are on you, and so far you've provided no evidence to support that claim.

Actually, it's not. Because there's no manufactured item in the weapon table (or the weapons section as a whole) simply named "Sword." There is "Shortsword," "Longsword," "Bastard Sword," "Greatsword," and several others with the word "Sword" in their name, and several others that don't have the word "sword" in their name (such as scimitars and rapiers), but are otherwise designed to be swords. So, it's a false correlation.

And no, it isn't, as that's flavor text, in the same vein that a Greatsword is just a larger, bulkier version of the Longsword. If it was, you'd have rules text saying that effects and abilities that improve a club also improve a greatclub, similar to how an Underwater Heavy Crossbow's description says it counts as a Heavy Crossbow for abilities and effects that work with Heavy Crossbows.

That text, precisely or similarly, does not exist in the Greatclub description.


It's right in the spell itself what the transmuted weapon damage is:

Quote:
a Small club or quarterstaff so transmuted deals 1d8 points of damage, a Medium 2d6, and a Large 3d6

So, if you're calling a greatclub a 'club' for purposes of the spell, then the damage for that 'club' is 2d6 under the spell.


I actually like the Shillelagh spell quite a bit. You could consider it a +1 Impact Impact Club/Quarterstaff. Which is nice since you cannot normally apply the impact effect twice without going up a size category.

Its great if you were planning on TWF, since it is a fantastic amount of gold saved on a double weapon.

Still, it 100% does not apply to a greatclub without GM fiat.


UMM. What is the difference between casting the spell on a large club (two handed weapon) used by a medium player and a great club (two handed weapon).

WOW, large clubs suck for medium players. two handed and only d8.

But large piece of wood is still a large piece of wood (right).


either it flies or it does not. that question is how much damage would it do (dice wise)?

the size of a piece of would be it pine or bamboo is not part of the question.

there is such a thing as spell research. which makes arguments pointless.


Nevan Oaks wrote:

UMM. What is the difference between casting the spell on a large club (two handed weapon) used by a medium player and a great club (two handed weapon).

WOW, large clubs suck for medium players. two handed and only d8.

But large piece of wood is still a large piece of wood (right).

Greatclub is a Martial Weapon. Club is a Simple Weapon.

Large Club requires 2 hands and does 1D8. Large Greatclub requires 3 hands and does 2D8.

These are different items. If they were the same item, there'd be no reason to make the distinction between Club and Greatclub, both in-game, and in the weapons table. And yet that distinction exists, which means you can't take effects that work on Clubs, and apply them to Greatclubs, in the same vein you can't take effects that work on Longswords, and apply them to Greatswords.

The Shillelagh spell's target isn't "large piece of wood." If it was, I could cast Shillelagh on things like a boat, and wield them as +1 weapons, which is obviously not intended by the spell. Being purposefully obtuse about a spell description in relation to very similar things does not mean they are congruent.

The Shillelagh spell's target is a "Club or Quarterstaff." Greatclub isn't the Club item or the Quarterstaff item, therefore it's not a valid target of the spell.


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zainale wrote:

either it flies or it does not. that question is how much damage would it do (dice wise)?

the size of a piece of would be it pine or bamboo is not part of the question.

there is such a thing as spell research. which makes arguments pointless.

Here you go friend. Take the base damage of the weapon, and increase it based on how many sizes (both virtual and actual) you increase. Combine that with the FAQ statements in relation to the FAQ table.


great club is a 1d10 dmg for medium creatures


Snowlilly wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Greatclub doesn't have text that says it counts as a club, so it doesn't work.

The dead condition does not say I cannot attack.

Swords to not specify they are made of metal.
Pants do not exist.

Sometimes you have to apply common sense.

:D thanks


hmmm Shillelagh is presumably applied by a druid to his own weapon, and they are NOT proficient with greatclub


The description of the greatclub notes that one of the names it is known by is shillelagh. Based upon this, I'd say you can't use the spell to turn a greatclub into itself.

So, you'd enlarge person, which makes your club or quarterstaff into a larger weapon, but you can't use shillelagh to make it into a larger weapon because enlarge person specifically prohibits stacking in this manner.

The Exchange

Lots of stuff here.

1: A Great Club would be a club in the generic sense of a kind of blunt weapon generally made of wood. But it would not be a Club in the sense of a Simple 1 handed weapon.

Proof - A 'medium Great Club' and a 'large Club' would be the same size, yet they would have different damage values, be different types of weapons (Simple/Martial) and a Large creature would take a penalty wielding a Great Club 1 handed while a Medium Creature would take a penalty wielding a Large Club 2 handed.

If Sheillelagh had a description of increasing the damage to club-like and quarterstaff-like weapons then sure, they would work.

2: Snowlilly says a greatclub is a club in the same manner that a longsword is a sword. I suppose that is accurate. However to my knowledge pathfinder has no spell/ability/feat that applies to a "sword" (or a sword-like weapon since just using it as a general weapon type) in the same manner as is trying to be applied to "All club-like weapons). Even if you look at the Fighter Weapon types, longswords are NOT "Swords" They are "Blades" clubs are not "Clubs" They are "Hammers". While we can logically all agree that a Greatclub is a club (in the generic sense of what kind of weapon it is). We must understand that the game must be very detailed in what it calls weapons for exactly this type of reason. The spell details 2 specific weapons, had they wanted it to include other weapons of the same type they probably would have said Clubs or any weapon with club in the name. Like they do with Dwarf/Elf/Orc Weapon proficiencies.

3: Finally, 3catcircus is correct: See CRB FAQ:
Size increases and effective size increases: How does damage work if I have various effects that change my actual size, my effective size, and my damage dice?
As per the rules on size changes, size changes do not stack, so if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies. The same is true of effective size increases (which includes “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language). They don’t stack with each other, just take the biggest one. However, you can have one of each and they do work together (for example, enlarge person increasing your actual size to Large and a bashing shield increasing your shield’s effective size by two steps, for a total of 2d6 damage).

posted March 2015 | back to top

Since Shillelagh says "It deals damage as if it were two size categories larger (a Small club or quarterstaff so transmuted deals 1d8 points of damage, a Medium 2d6, and a Large 3d6), +1 for its enhancement bonus." it is treated as an actual size increase, not an "Effective" Size increase. Thus it does not stack with Enlarge Person!


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
And no, it isn't, as that's flavor text, in the same vein that a Greatsword is just a larger, bulkier version of the Longsword. If it was, you'd have rules text saying that effects and abilities that improve a club also improve a greatclub, similar to how an Underwater Heavy Crossbow's description says it counts as a Heavy Crossbow for abilities and effects that work with Heavy Crossbows.

You've done this before; dismiss anything you personally disagree with as flavor text.

The greatclub description contains a RAW definition for what a greatclub is, "a variety of club that is too large to be used with one hand."

With hat definition in place, any ruling that a greatclub is not a "club" is strictly in the realm of house rules.


shillelah does not change the size of the club only the way it acts


3catcircus wrote:
The description of the greatclub notes that one of the names it is known by is shillelagh. Based upon this, I'd say you can't use the spell to turn a greatclub into itself.

It also notes that tree branches count as clubs, with the only difference in designation between "club" and "greatclub" being the size of the tree branch relative to the size of the wielder.

No, choosing to refer to an item as a shilleglah instead of cudgel does not suddenly make is a less appropriate target. Both are shaped pieces of wood. (The definition of "club" in Pathfinder.)


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Nevan Oaks wrote:

UMM. What is the difference between casting the spell on a large club (two handed weapon) used by a medium player and a great club (two handed weapon).

WOW, large clubs suck for medium players. two handed and only d8.

But large piece of wood is still a large piece of wood (right).

Greatclub is a Martial Weapon. Club is a Simple Weapon.

Large Club requires 2 hands and does 1D8. Large Greatclub requires 3 hands and does 2D8.

These are different items. If they were the same item, there'd be no reason to make the distinction between Club and Greatclub, both in-game, and in the weapons table. And yet that distinction exists, which means you can't take effects that work on Clubs, and apply them to Greatclubs, in the same vein you can't take effects that work on Longswords, and apply them to Greatswords.

The Shillelagh spell's target isn't "large piece of wood." If it was, I could cast Shillelagh on things like a boat, and wield them as +1 weapons, which is obviously not intended by the spell. Being purposefully obtuse about a spell description in relation to very similar things does not mean they are congruent.

The Shillelagh spell's target is a "Club or Quarterstaff." Greatclub isn't the Club item or the Quarterstaff item, therefore it's not a valid target of the spell.

A large piece of wood is a "greatclub" if wielded by a medium creature, a "club" if wielded by a large creature. All a character has to do is state, "I am using an oversized club, not a greatclub" and it becomes a -2 oversized weapon penalty instead of a -4 non-proficiency penalty.

The Shilelagh spell does not place a restriction on the size of club targeted, it states the damage is increased by two size categories and provides examples for the two most common weapon sizes. A storm giant druid casting shillelagh on a huge club would deal damage as if using a colossal club. That same weapon would count as either an oversized club or greatclub (user preference) for a stone giant.

For the sake of argument, we'll say the "club" being used in the example above is a branch the giant snapped off a nearby oak tree.


Spell refers to a club or quarterstaff. Not bo-staff, not greatclub. Not all clubs or clublike weapons. It doesn't have any wiggle room for this. If you want to go by common sense (which is very uncommon in this thread for some reason), it's a druid only spell, and druids are not proficient with greatclubs. It's a spell that serves the purpose of giving a bit of power to druids lackluster weapon choices.

If it did work damage would be 4d8 as far as I'm reading those two FAQs correctly. EDIT: a reasonable GM could probably make the greatclub a simple weapon with which a druid is proficient. Although, I would limit the spell as increasing only one size for it.

Third, flagged for the wrong forum. Zainale, most of your threads in General Discussion should be either in the Rules section or Advice section.


Snowlilly wrote:

A large piece of wood is a "greatclub" if wielded by a medium creature, a "club" if wielded by a large creature. All a character has to do is state, "I am using an oversized club, not a greatclub" and it becomes a -2 oversized weapon penalty instead of a -4 non-proficiency penalty.

The Shilelagh spell does not place a restriction on the size of club targeted, it states the damage is increased by two size categories and provides examples for the two most common weapon sizes. A storm giant druid casting shillelagh on a huge club would deal damage as if using a colossal club. That same weapon would count as either an oversized club or...

Err, nope. A large piece of wood that giant wields in one hand would be a Large club, which a medium sized creature can wield in two hands with a -2 penalty. Ergo, not the same weapon at all, the same as a medium greatsword is not simply a Large longsword. EDIT: especially as the Large club deals 1d8 damage, rather than 1d10.

The Exchange

Snowlilly wrote:


A large piece of wood is a "greatclub" if wielded by a medium creature, a "club" if wielded by a large creature. All a character has to do is state, "I am using an oversized club, not a greatclub" and it becomes a -2 oversized weapon penalty instead of a -4 non-proficiency penalty.

A greatclub may be little more than a large piece of wood, but it is a specific large piece of wood that takes a little more training to use it properly (martial weapon) and hits a little harder (1d10 vs 1d8). You are absolutely correct, a player can use an oversized club rather than a great club and take a -2 to hit instead of -4 if they are not proficient, however they are NOT using a greatclub which deals 1d10 dmg, they are using a Large club, that is going to deal 1d8 damage.

Snowlilly wrote:
The Shilelagh spell does not place a restriction on the size of club targeted, it states the damage is increased by two size categories and provides examples for the two most common weapon sizes. A storm giant druid casting shillelagh on a huge club would deal damage as if using a colossal club. That same weapon would count as either an oversized club or...

Here you are absolutely correct, a player can take a large club, 1d8, apply shillelagh to it making it 3d6, and use it 2 handed with a -2 penalty to hit as an improperly sized weapon.

Unfortunately they still can not get another size increase from polymorph/enlarge person or any other actual size increase. It will only stack with an "effective" size increase.


Snowlilly wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
And no, it isn't, as that's flavor text, in the same vein that a Greatsword is just a larger, bulkier version of the Longsword. If it was, you'd have rules text saying that effects and abilities that improve a club also improve a greatclub, similar to how an Underwater Heavy Crossbow's description says it counts as a Heavy Crossbow for abilities and effects that work with Heavy Crossbows.

You've done this before; dismiss anything you personally disagree with as flavor text.

The greatclub description contains a RAW definition for what a greatclub is, "a variety of club that is too large to be used with one hand."

With hat definition in place, any ruling that a greatclub is not a "club" is strictly in the realm of house rules.

I probably have, though you're once again bringing up irrelevant subjects to supplement whatever points you're making. Also, I'm not the only one who disagrees with it, are you going to call them out on it too? You should, since they're just as "guilty" as I am.

The description doesn't give any mechanical benefit. You could remove the entire description, replace it with some other fluffy bulls#!^, and its mechanics would not change. It's still a two-handed martial bludgeoning weapon, it still deals 1D10 points of damage, and it's still a weapon that is separate from the Club.

Let's look at this from another perspective: If I took Weapon Focus (Greatclub), and then I drew out a Club, my Weapon Focus feat would not apply to that Club, because that Club is not a Greatclub. Inversely, if I took Weapon Focus (Club), and then I drew out a Greatclub, my Weapon Focus feat would not apply to that Greatclub.

If you can't agree on that, then quite frankly you're the one houseruling, and not me.


Glorf Fei-Hung wrote:
Unfortunately they still can not get another size increase from polymorph/enlarge person or any other actual size increase. It will only stack with an "effective" size increase.

you have it backwards you can still get the size increase from enlarge person or polly morph as they are actual size increases were as you would not beable to get it from impact or leaded blades as they are simmilar effects

The Exchange

Lady-J wrote:
Glorf Fei-Hung wrote:
Unfortunately they still can not get another size increase from polymorph/enlarge person or any other actual size increase. It will only stack with an "effective" size increase.
you have it backwards you can still get the size increase from enlarge person or polly morph as they are actual size increases were as you would not beable to get it from impact or leaded blades as they are simmilar effects

Woops, I rushed through reviewing the FAQ before posting, you are right. "as if" counts as an effective size increase. So they do stack.

Grand Lodge

Nevan Oaks wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Doesn't matter. Spell says it works on Clubs and Quarterstaves, nothing else.

If somebody wields a Greatclub or a Bo Staff, it won't work with them.

Also, if Greatclubs and Clubs are the same, then why do they have different entries in the weapon table?

Actually the spell targets a nonmagical oak club or quarterstaff. Since you can't by or get an oak club the spell is only good for quarterstaffs.

That being said a club is a club IMO.

Actually Shillelagh means "thonged willow" so unless your weapon is exactly made from willow, a thonged one then nope spell doesn't work.

Druids deserve a nice weapon, 4d6

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Treat the greatclub as a club.


Klorox wrote:
hmmm Shillelagh is presumably applied by a druid to his own weapon, and they are NOT proficient with greatclub

Proficiency is neither a requirement nor a difficult obstacle to overcome.

necromental wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:

A large piece of wood is a "greatclub" if wielded by a medium creature, a "club" if wielded by a large creature. All a character has to do is state, "I am using an oversized club, not a greatclub" and it becomes a -2 oversized weapon penalty instead of a -4 non-proficiency penalty.

The Shilelagh spell does not place a restriction on the size of club targeted, it states the damage is increased by two size categories and provides examples for the two most common weapon sizes. A storm giant druid casting shillelagh on a huge club would deal damage as if using a colossal club. That same weapon would count as either an oversized club or...

Err, nope. A large piece of wood that giant wields in one hand would be a *Large club, which a medium sized creature can wield in two hands with a -2 penalty. Ergo, not the same weapon at all, the same as a medium greatsword is not simply a Large longsword. EDIT: especially as the Large club deals 1d8 damage, rather than 1d10.

*Large in this instance being a non-specific size relating to human perception, not a specific size category.

Glorf Fei-Hung wrote:


Here you are absolutely correct, a player can take a large club, 1d8, apply shillelagh to it making it 3d6, and use it 2 handed with a -2 penalty to hit as an improperly sized weapon.

Unfortunately they still can not get another size increase from polymorph/enlarge person or any other actual size increase. It will only stack with an "effective" size increase.

And it is still, literally, the same branch. The point is, changing what you choose to call the "club" in question does not affect its viability as a target for the spell Shilelagh.

This becomes more obvious when you consider the player can choose to change how he defines his "club" after the spell is cast. "Now that I have cast Shilelagh, I choose to use my oversized club as a greatclub. It's still the same branch, and it's still treated as two size categories larger.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Greatclub doesn't have text that says it counts as a club, so it doesn't work.

Claims rules text does not exist.

Club, Great wrote:
This larger, bulkier version of the common club is heavy enough that you can’t wield it with one hand. It may be ornate and carved, reinforced with metal, or a simple branch from a tree. Like simple clubs, greatclubs have many names, such as cudgels, bludgeons, shillelaghs, and more.

Is provided with rules text.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
And no, it isn't, as that's flavor text,

Dismisses RAW definition as flavor text.

Snowlilly wrote:
A large piece of wood is a "greatclub" if wielded by a medium creature, a "club" if wielded by a large creature. All a character has to do is state, "I am using an oversized club, not a greatclub" and it becomes a -2 oversized weapon penalty instead of a -4 non-proficiency penalty.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
The description doesn't give any mechanical benefit. You could remove the entire description, replace it with some other fluffy bulls#!^, and its mechanics would not change. It's still a two-handed martial bludgeoning weapon, it still deals 1D10 points of damage, and it's still a weapon that is separate from the Club.

Presented with example demonstrating lack of physical distinction between a club and greatclub. Continues denying designation between "club" and "greatclub" is one of perception and choice, not a physical difference.

Definitions are not rules mechanics, they do define how a term is used in relation to the rules mechanics. By applying the originally provided definition the distinctions in designation becomes obvious. A greatclub is a "club" that is used two handed. Yes, it requires slightly more skill to use it effectively for increased damage in two hands, but the "club" itself is the same item regardless of designation.


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Either Shillelagh is using 'club' in the sense of a specific weapon in the weapon table, or it's using it in the natural language sense, in which case it refers to anything that is a type of club (such as a Tetsubo). There are a number of cases where words like 'bound' and 'concentration' are used in the rules in ways that are very different if they're referring to a game term or a just the way we'd use them in real life, and a certain amount of guesswork is required to interpret them.

The spell says "It deals damage as if it were two size categories larger (a Small club or quarterstaff so transmuted deals 1d8 points of damage, a Medium 2d6, and a Large 3d6)". But a medium greatclub 2 sizes larger wouldn't do 2d6 damage, so that makes no sense unless it's using the word 'club' to mean the club from the weapon table. If that's what it means by 'club' in that sentence, it probably means it that way in the first sentence of the spell too.


Snowlilly wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Greatclub doesn't have text that says it counts as a club, so it doesn't work.

Claims rules text does not exist.

Club, Great wrote:
This larger, bulkier version of the common club is heavy enough that you can’t wield it with one hand. It may be ornate and carved, reinforced with metal, or a simple branch from a tree. Like simple clubs, greatclubs have many names, such as cudgels, bludgeons, shillelaghs, and more.

Is provided with rules text.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
And no, it isn't, as that's flavor text,
Dismisses RAW definition as flavor text.

It doesn't have "For purposes of Weapon Proficiency and similar feats, a

composite longbow is treated as if it were a longbow." as longbow has so it's not the same.

Snowlilly wrote:
A large piece of wood is a "greatclub" if wielded by a medium creature, a "club" if wielded by a large creature. All a character has to do is state, "I am using an oversized club, not a greatclub" and it becomes a -2 oversized weapon penalty instead of a -4 non-proficiency penalty.

It does 1d8 damage instead of 1d10 so not the same weapon at all.

Snowlilly wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
The description doesn't give any mechanical benefit. You could remove the entire description, replace it with some other fluffy bulls#!^, and its mechanics would not change. It's still a two-handed martial bludgeoning weapon, it still deals 1D10 points of damage, and it's still a weapon that is separate from the Club.

Presented with example demonstrating lack of physical distinction between a club and greatclub. Continues denying designation between "club" and "greatclub" is one of perception and choice, not a physical difference.

Definitions are not rules mechanics, they do define how a term is used in relation to the rules mechanics. By applying the originally provided definition the distinctions in designation becomes obvious. A greatclub is a "club" that is used two handed. Yes, it requires slightly more skill to use it effectively for increased damage in two hands, but the "club" itself is the same item regardless of designation.

The greatsword is "an immense two handed sword", longsword is "a sword that is around 3.5 ft in length" while the shortsword "is about 2 ft in length. They are all swords, but they are not the same weapon for W.Focus or any other effect like longbow and composite longbow are. The greatclub is in the same pickle. And as Matthew Downie said from specific damage callout i shillelagh description, it makes no sense that it includes greatclubs (or the greatclubs have also got 2d6 damage rather than 3d8).


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Pathfinder is a system of exclusion. You can't unless the rules say you can. Furthermore, [club] and [greatclub] are specific and distinct entries. It makes no sense for the spell to be written as "[specific weapon] and {general concept of weapon}" as possible spell targets. It also doesn't say "all weapons with 'club' in the name" like it does for the respective orc/dwarf racial weapon proficiency.

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Texas Snyper wrote:
Pathfinder is a system of exclusion. You can't unless the rules say you can. Furthermore, [club] and [greatclub] are specific and distinct entries. It makes no sense for the spell to be written as "[specific weapon] and {general concept of weapon}" as possible spell targets. It also doesn't say "all weapons with 'club' in the name" like it does for the respective orc/dwarf racial weapon proficiency.

+1

It's been explained that greatclub isn't a club in this thread.
It's been pointed out that the spell level is too low to enhance a great club in this thread.
It's been explained that there is a FAQ on dice size increases.

Use the existing rules.

If I were a GM for a player asking the only answer I'd give is "sure your greatclub can be used as a club for the spell but it gains nothing except requires two hands." If they player persisted, I'd say "no and stop". If the player persisted more, I'd say "we have no more space at the table for you." Other GM would behave differently as this is asking to walk outside the bounds of the rules. So

Ask your GM


Snowlilly wrote:

-pointless, incorrect, and irrelevant summary of previous posts-

Definitions are not rules mechanics, they do define how a term is used in relation to the rules mechanics. By applying the originally provided definition the distinctions in designation becomes obvious. A greatclub is a "club" that is used two handed. Yes, it requires slightly more skill to use it effectively for increased damage in two hands, but the "club" itself is the same item regardless of designation.

Definitions are rules mechanics if the definition would have mechanic implications. A weapon giving a +2 bonus on Disarm attempts made using that weapon is a rules mechanic. A weapon saying it's 2 feet long and smells like roses is not a rules mechanic. They could even be a part of the same description, and you have one part of the definition that has mechanic implications, and one that doesn't. In this case, the only part of the description that actually matters is the one that has mechanic implications.

And the best part? That bolded portion most accurately describes a Greatsword in relation to a Longsword; actually, more so than a Club to a Greatclub, since, when you take a Large Longsword, and compare it to a Medium Greatsword, their attributes are identical, whereas a Large Club's attributes are lacking and different compared to a Medium Greatclub.

So, why aren't you positing that Longswords and Greatswords are the same weapon, in the same vein that Clubs and Greatclubs are the same weapon?


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


So, why aren't you positing that Longswords and Greatswords are the same weapon, in the same vein that Clubs and Greatclubs are the same weapon?

Greatswords are not defined as longswords too large to be used one handed. Greatclubs are defined as clubs that are too large to be used one handed.

It's right there in the greatclub text that you keep choosing to ignore.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Definitions are rules mechanics if the definition would have mechanic implications.
Greatclub Definition wrote:
This larger, bulkier version of the common club is heavy enough that you can’t wield it with one hand.

Per Definition: a greatclub is a club. One that is too heavy to use one-handed.

Mechanical implications: An item's designation as a club or greatclub is not dependent on the "club", but on the size of the club relative to the size of the wielder. The same item can have either designation based solely on usage at any given point in time.

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