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Whenever a spell, feat, or class ability refers to specific weapon entries like [longsword], [bastard sword], [falcion], etc. These are specific, defined weapon entries that can be found on the weapon tables. They could also refer to groups of weapons, in which case they use rules defined terminology.
* Size Category: Small, Medium, Large, etc
* Proficiency: Simple, Martial, Exotic
* Range: Melee, Ranged
* Damage type: Bludgeoning, Slashing, Piercing
* Handedness(?): Light, One Handed, Two Handed
* Fighter Weapon Groups: Heavy Blades, etc
* Racial Weapons: Orc, Dwarven, etc
etc
Vorpal cites Slashing, Weapon Finesse cites Light, Racial Weapon Proficiencies cite "weapons with (race) in the name". These are the types of terminologies used when more than [specific weapon] is used in the verbiage. "Club" is not a group of weapons just like "sword" is not a group of weapons, it is a descriptor for weapons. There just happens to also be a [Club] weapon that shares the exact wordage. Per RAW and RAI, thanks to John Compton, greatclub is not a valid target. If you want to claim that the spell is using "club" instead of [club] then you need to cite other examples where spells, feats, etc use "descriptor" for a group of weapons and not [specific weapon] or a defined weapon group as above.
Having said all of that, a GM can decide that greatclubs are valid targets for the spell but that falls under homebrew or houserule.
Pathfinder can tell you the intended rules for Pathfinder. While it is backwards compatible with 3.5 D&D, it is not backwards compatible with 1st Edition D&D.
agreed. as i said we have an unofficial ruling for Pathfinder. This however is not necessarily the original intended ruling of the spell, just how a Pathfinder dev believes it should work in Pathfinder
How it does work not should. Different rules for different game systems. Just because the spell originates from there doesn't mean it has to remain unchanged. Clerics are from 1st edition, does that mean they're not actually allowed their spontaneous castings? It's just a suggested change?
If you want to claim that the spell is using "club" instead of [club] then you need to cite other examples where spells, feats, etc use "descriptor" for a group of weapons and not [specific weapon] or a defined weapon group as above.
While I don't think Great Club was intended as a target for the spell, I did find an example of using a description rather than a specific defined group.
Tengus are trained from birth in swordplay, and as a result are automatically proficient with sword-like weapons (including bastard swords, daggers, elven curve blades, falchions, greatswords, kukris, longswords, punching daggers, rapiers, scimitars, short swords, and two-bladed swords).
The description is "sword-like weapons," and while there is an extensive list of examples, it doesn't read to me as an exclusive list. Other "sword-like weapons" would qualify as well.
"Sword-like" not swords.
"Clubs" not club-like.
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No, how it should. This is not an official ruling.
There's not an official ruling... Unless you, y'know, look at the Core Rulebook and actually accept that it means exactly what it freaking says. It works on clubs and quarterstaves - specifically THOSE TWO WEAPONS - as long as they're made of oak. That's it.
You can argue RAI all day, but RAW it works on regular clubs - you know, the ones listed in the weapon entry as "club," simple weapon, 1d6 bludgeoning x2 melee with a range of 10 feet if thrown - and makes absolutely zero mention of greatclubs.
What 3.5 did doesn't matter. What 2E did doesn't matter. What Gary Gygax, holy be his name, said or did doesn't matter. We're not playing D&D. We're playing Pathfinder, and in Pathfinder you get to cast the spell on two very specific kinds of sticks.
Houserule it if you want to play with a bigger stick. Or, y'know, just grab a Large Club - and no, that's NOT the same as a Medium Greatclub.
Right the rules don't say you can, so you can't, the whole Pathfinder is exclusive argument. So you have to use a house rule right out of the gate.The spell doesn't need an update.
Club and quarterstaff are made of wood.
Pathfinder provides no guidance for what wood you use to make clubs, so oak is valid.
At worse the spell requires oak clubs, not cedar clubs.
The entire game system is designed such that club and greatclub are different weapons like long sword and great sword are.
John Compton the Pathfinder Society Lead Developer responded in this thread that the spell was designed with a damage cap so using it with a great club is beyond the design of the spell.There is no problem here. Nothing needs fixed.
You're right, guess we have to house rule for it to be made out of any material that isn't special material since the basic material types aren't covered at all.
That's the thing. It's NOT unofficial - the spell is quite plain about its definition. Off the PRD:
Your own nonmagical club or quarterstaff becomes a weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls.
It also specifies in the valid targets "one touched nonmagical oak club or quarterstaff."
That's specific. There's one club in Pathfinder - the club. The greatclub may be similar to that club, but it's not a club as far as the weapon table and the rules go, just as a spell that specifically targets a longsword can't affect a greatsword, or an effect that targets daggers very specifically doesn't affect punching daggers (katars). Greatclub, for rules definitions, =/= club.
Now, for FLUFF purposes, yes, it's just a big darned club. But it's not a club in the rules. It's a greatclub. Nothing more, nothing less.
Now, if I were running a home game and someone wanted to target a greatclub or a non-oaken version of those weapons, I'd say "Sure." I mean, it seems fair to me. But that's a house rule. I'd do that KNOWING I was house ruling it.
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i completly agree considering you can potensially do 36d6+330 damage with a fighter useing a syth at high enough level each round i see little problem with having a great club do a measly 3d8 per attack with the help of this spell
Ummmmm.....You wanna give me that build? Cuz I have a scythe fighter who would love some more damage.
Probably one of those level 19-20 two-handed fighter archetypes that can auto-crit...
We're not talking and a 20th level mythic character can do though. We're talking about a spell Druids and Hunters can cast at level one.. The level you cast the weakest kinds of spells at.
The spell is specific in what it says. Some people won't accept that, and we can stop trying to convince them. They simply play some things wrongly when it comes to certain rules. I for one thought Mindless creatures didn't get AoOs for example. I just listened to my group and re-read the rules and understood I'd been wrong.
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"Sword-like" not swords.
"Clubs" not club-like.
Let's look at at what Texas Snyper said again...
cite other examples where spells, feats, etc use "descriptor" for a group of weapons and not [specific weapon] or a defined weapon group as above.
"sword-like" is a descriptor and not a [specific weapon] or defined weapon group.
He asked for an example I gave it to him.
I was, very specifically, not making any argument in support of great club = club. Simply that using a descriptor rather than a defined rules element has happened, at least that one time.
Sword-like isn't them using "swords" or "longswords".
"clubs" is not "club-like".So the use of club in the rule is referring to the weapon club and not club-like items.
This is what I meant.
going by that logic leaded blades would be to powerful for a 1st level spell if used on a greatsword......
What character level is typically needed to cast leaded blades vs. shillelagh?
This is what I meant.Sword-like isn't them using "swords" or "longswords".
"clubs" is not "club-like".So the use of club in the rule is referring to the weapon club and not club-like items.
Ah, sorry then. I misread you.
What character level is typically needed to cast leaded blades vs. shillelagh?
Isnt Lead Blades ranger 1?
The difference in power here is:
Lead Blades - all melee weapons, one size increase.
Shillelagh - one club or quarterstaff, two size increases.
What character level is typically needed to cast leaded blades vs. shillelagh?Isnt Lead Blades ranger 1?
The difference in power here is:
Lead Blades - all melee weapons, one size increase.
Shillelagh - one club or quarterstaff, two size increases.
Yes, my point was lead blades requires character level 4, vs level 1 for shillelagh.
Ah, sorry then. I misread you.This is what I meant.Sword-like isn't them using "swords" or "longswords".
"clubs" is not "club-like".So the use of club in the rule is referring to the weapon club and not club-like items.
No worries. I thought I was disagreeing with you! lol
Well at least on part of it. I think I don't know what's really going anymore. ;)
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Yes, my point was lead blades requires character level 4, vs level 1 for shillelagh.
It's 1st level for hunters. 2nd for spellsage wizards.
The fact that rangers are weak spellcasters should make little difference in the spells's overall effectiveness.
"Sword-like" not swords.
"Clubs" not club-like.
Let's look at at what Texas Snyper said again...
cite other examples where spells, feats, etc use "descriptor" for a group of weapons and not [specific weapon] or a defined weapon group as above."sword-like" is a descriptor and not a [specific weapon] or defined weapon group.
He asked for an example I gave it to him.
I was, very specifically, not making any argument in support of great club = club. Simply that using a descriptor rather than a defined rules element has happened, at least that one time.
I did ask for that and this is a good example. It also still further supports the same argument because, as you pointed out, it also gives examples to remove ambiguity. So while it did use the descriptor "sword-like" it then followed it up by defining what "sword-like" meant in this unique case.
Nice find by the way.
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PFS or home game, I'd be inclined to rule the damage based on the size of your cudgel.
A great club with shillelagh cast on it, would do the same damage as a large club. Arguing about whether a great club should be considered a club or not is immaterial. The spell does not consider a weapon with a base damage different than a club or quarterstaff. So start the extrapolation there.