greatclub + shillelagh + enlarge person = how many dice?


Rules Questions

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The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Snowlilly wrote:
It's right there in the greatclub text that you keep choosing to ignore.

We are ignoring you ignoring the rules.

Ask your GM to deviate or "creatively interpret" the rules.


James Risner wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
It's right there in the greatclub text that you keep choosing to ignore.

We are ignoring you ignoring the rules.

Ask your GM to deviate or "creatively interpret" the rules.

And which part of the definition is being creatively interpreted?

It is clearly stated in 2nd grade level English.

Club, Great wrote:
This larger, bulkier version of the common club is heavy enough that you can’t wield it with one hand.

How do you propose to interpret that RAW in a way that disagrees with my assertion?


Snowlilly wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
It's right there in the greatclub text that you keep choosing to ignore.

We are ignoring you ignoring the rules.

Ask your GM to deviate or "creatively interpret" the rules.

And which part of the definition is being creatively interpreted?

It is clearly stated in 2nd grade level English.

Club, Great wrote:
This larger, bulkier version of the common club is heavy enough that you can’t wield it with one hand.
How do you propose to interpret that RAW in a way that disagrees with my assertion?

If you really don't understand why they are different, pethaps rhe following may help.

The term "club" in the descriprtion of the greatclub is being used in the common sense of the word meaning a blunt wooden weapon. It could equally apply to a chair leg or a broomstick.

How the weapons differ is in how they are employed. The club is a one-handed simple weapon. The greatclub is a 2-handed martial weapon. The mechanical advantage and torque generated from a heavy mass on the end of a 2-handed swing far exceeds that of a 1-handed weapon with less mass. It'd be the same comparison of the handle of a hatchet vs a long handled axe or a standard claw hammer vs a 20-lb sledge.

The shillelagh spell is specifically intended to allow someone not proficient with a greatclub (martial weapon) to increase the effectiveness of their club or quarterstaff (simple weapon). At no point does the spell physically change the club into a greatclub. Perhaps the spell sucks in more mass to the weapon, but it never physically lengthens itself to the length of a greatclub - it is still a 1-handed weapon.


Snowlilly wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


So, why aren't you positing that Longswords and Greatswords are the same weapon, in the same vein that Clubs and Greatclubs are the same weapon?

Greatswords are not defined as longswords too large to be used one handed. Greatclubs are defined as clubs that are too large to be used one handed.

It's right there in the greatclub text that you keep choosing to ignore.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Definitions are rules mechanics if the definition would have mechanic implications.
Greatclub Definition wrote:
This larger, bulkier version of the common club is heavy enough that you can’t wield it with one hand.

Per Definition: a greatclub is a club. One that is too heavy to use one-handed.

Mechanical implications: An item's designation as a club or greatclub is not dependent on the "club", but on the size of the club relative to the size of the wielder. The same item can have either designation based solely on usage at any given point in time.

I ignore it because there is already a precedent that a weapon's description says it also counts as a given weapon, and the description you've given doesn't match that precedent's example.

I am, of course, talking about the Underwater Heavy Crossbow. The Underwater Heavy Crossbow has the following text:

Underwater Heavy Crossbow wrote:
Above water, this weapon is identical to a heavy crossbow. You may use it underwater, where it has a range increment of 20 feet. It counts as a heavy crossbow for the purposes of proficiencies and special abilities.

You'll notice that, like your precious Greatclub, it has the "this is identical except X" clause. It also has the bolded part, which explicitly says that it counts as a Heavy Crossbow for abilities and proficiencies related to the Heavy Crossbow. This is example that I am talking about.

And it's not the only item. The Underwater Light Crossbow has similar text, along with the Composite Longbow/Shortbow to its regular counterparts. Does the Greatclub say that it counts as a Club for abilities and proficiencies related to the Club? No. It doesn't.


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1) They are two distinct different weapons. A L club is different from a M greatclub.
2) Weapon focus(club) does not apply to greatclub.
3) The spell names two specific weapon entries, greatclub is not one of the two explicitly names and identified weapons.
4) The spell does not say "weapons with club in their name" like racial weapon proficiency demonstrates
5) The spell names "[specific weapon] and [specific weapon]" not "[specific weapon] and (general weapon concept)". Grammatically, it makes no sense.
6) anytime the rules refer to (group of weapons) they use different verbiage to explicitly say so. "Slashing weapons", "fighter weapon group", "weapons with orc in the name", etc. Anytime the rules means more than one [weapon] it explicitly say so.

Pathfinder's rule system says "no unless we explicitly say yes". With established rule patterns and already existing examples, nothing supports greatclub as a valid target.


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This thread is why we can't have nice things.


3catcircus wrote:


How the weapons differ is in how they are employed. The club is a one-handed simple weapon. The greatclub is a 2-handed martial weapon. The mechanical advantage and torque generated from a heavy mass on the end of a 2-handed swing far exceeds that of a 1-handed weapon with less mass. It'd be the same comparison of the handle of a hatchet vs a long handled axe or a standard claw hammer vs a 20-lb sledge.

They are both still clubs and, by definition, the same item can be both a club and a greatclub depending on who is wielding it and how they choose to wield it.

I find a branch laying on the ground. It is too heavy for me to use one-handed, but I can use it two handed. By definition a "greatclub".

I set the "greatclub" down. Cast Enlarge Person on myself and pick up the same branch which is now, by definition, a "club".

Nothing about the branch has changed.

Either way the branch is used, it is still defined as a club. If you disagree, refer to the quoted RAW text where it is stated in very, very simple terms that a greatclub is a type of club.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

You'll notice that, like your precious Greatclub, it has the "this is identical except X" clause. It also has the bolded part, which explicitly says that it counts as a Heavy Crossbow for abilities and proficiencies related to the Heavy Crossbow. This is example that I am talking about.

And it's not the only item. The Underwater Light Crossbow has similar text, along with the Composite Longbow/Shortbow to its regular counterparts. Does the Greatclub say that it counts as a Club for abilities and proficiencies related to the Club? No. It doesn't.

If we ruled out any text that was inconsistent with text located elsewhere, we would loose about half the combat and magic sections of the core rulebook, and most splatbooks.

Paizo does not word material consistently between chapters, let alone books.

If it troubles you, refer back where I earlier addressed this overwhelming concern of yours.

Snowlilly wrote:

Presented with example demonstrating lack of physical distinction between a club and greatclub. Continues denying designation between "club" and "greatclub" is one of perception and choice, not a physical difference.

Definitions are not rules mechanics, they do define how a term is used in relation to the rules mechanics. By applying the originally provided definition the distinctions in designation becomes obvious. A greatclub is a "club" that is used two handed. Yes, it requires slightly more skill to use it effectively for increased damage in two hands, but the "club" itself is the same item regardless of designation.

It is the manner in which the item is used that required martial proficiency and which benefits from a particular weapon focus. The club itself (a tree branch in the previous example) is physically unaltered by who uses it or how many hands they use it with.


Snowlilly wrote:

They are both still clubs and, by definition, the same item can be both a club and a greatclub depending on who is wielding it and how they choose to wield it.

I find a branch laying on the ground. It is too heavy for me to use one-handed, but I can use it two handed. By definition a "greatclub".

I set the "greatclub" down. Cast Enlarge Person on myself and pick up the same branch which is now, by definition, a "club".

Nothing about the branch has changed.

Either way the branch is used, it is still defined as a club. If you disagree, refer to the quoted RAW text where it is stated in very, very simple terms that a greatclub is a type of club.

In the real world you are correct. But in the real world weapons don't have pre-assigned damage amounts attached to them. Pathfinder is a game of explicit rules. It sets the boundaries. There is nothing in the rules that, within the Pathfinder game system, supports the argument that a club and greatclub are interchangeable. Letting the spell affect greatclubs is homebrew.

Snowlilly wrote:

If we ruled out any text that was inconsistent with text located elsewhere, we would loose about half the combat and magic sections of the core rulebook, and most splatbooks.

Paizo does not word material consistently between chapters, let alone books.

If it troubles you, refer back where I earlier addressed this overwhelming concern.

And that is what FAQs and erratas are for. And still, every example of a weapon "counting as a different weapon for features, feats, effects, etc" are all explicitly stated as such.


Texas Snyper wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:

They are both still clubs and, by definition, the same item can be both a club and a greatclub depending on who is wielding it and how they choose to wield it.

I find a branch laying on the ground. It is too heavy for me to use one-handed, but I can use it two handed. By definition a "greatclub".

I set the "greatclub" down. Cast Enlarge Person on myself and pick up the same branch which is now, by definition, a "club".

Nothing about the branch has changed.

Either way the branch is used, it is still defined as a club. If you disagree, refer to the quoted RAW text where it is stated in very, very simple terms that a greatclub is a type of club.

In the real world you are correct. But in the real world weapons don't have pre-assigned damage amounts attached to them. Pathfinder is a game of explicit rules. It sets the boundaries. There is nothing in the rules that, within the Pathfinder game system, supports the argument that a club and greatclub are interchangeable. Letting the spell affect greatclubs is homebrew.

Given the in-game definitions presented, I am correct in-game as well.

All it requires is the character (not the player) to play semantic games. The greatclub is suddently an oversized club (with a -2 to-hit penalty) and is a valid target. The oversized club with Shilelagh is suddenly a greatclub and requires martial proficiency to use without penalty. The existing spell does not suddenly poof simply because the character's perception of the item changes, and the greatclub is, by in-game definition, still a type of club.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

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Snowlilly wrote:
And which part of the definition is being creatively interpreted?

Your choice to eschew rules text for fluff description to gain a mechanical advantage by creatively interpreting a rule that makes a low level spell way more powerful than designed by RAW.


James Risner wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
And which part of the definition is being creatively interpreted?
Your choice to eschew rules text for fluff description to gain a mechanical advantage by creatively interpreting a rule that makes a low level spell way more powerful than designed by RAW.

Or your choice to ignore RAW that disagrees with your personal opinion.

The words are there, in the rulebook, printed in black and white. One of us is choosing to disregard them.


Snowlilly wrote:
Texas Snyper wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:

They are both still clubs and, by definition, the same item can be both a club and a greatclub depending on who is wielding it and how they choose to wield it.

I find a branch laying on the ground. It is too heavy for me to use one-handed, but I can use it two handed. By definition a "greatclub".

I set the "greatclub" down. Cast Enlarge Person on myself and pick up the same branch which is now, by definition, a "club".

Nothing about the branch has changed.

Either way the branch is used, it is still defined as a club. If you disagree, refer to the quoted RAW text where it is stated in very, very simple terms that a greatclub is a type of club.

In the real world you are correct. But in the real world weapons don't have pre-assigned damage amounts attached to them. Pathfinder is a game of explicit rules. It sets the boundaries. There is nothing in the rules that, within the Pathfinder game system, supports the argument that a club and greatclub are interchangeable. Letting the spell affect greatclubs is homebrew.
Given the in-game definitions presented, I am correct in-game as well.

No you are not. Nowhere does anything say that greatclubs count as clubs. They are two distinct weapon entries.


Texas Snyper wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Texas Snyper wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:

They are both still clubs and, by definition, the same item can be both a club and a greatclub depending on who is wielding it and how they choose to wield it.

I find a branch laying on the ground. It is too heavy for me to use one-handed, but I can use it two handed. By definition a "greatclub".

I set the "greatclub" down. Cast Enlarge Person on myself and pick up the same branch which is now, by definition, a "club".

Nothing about the branch has changed.

Either way the branch is used, it is still defined as a club. If you disagree, refer to the quoted RAW text where it is stated in very, very simple terms that a greatclub is a type of club.

In the real world you are correct. But in the real world weapons don't have pre-assigned damage amounts attached to them. Pathfinder is a game of explicit rules. It sets the boundaries. There is nothing in the rules that, within the Pathfinder game system, supports the argument that a club and greatclub are interchangeable. Letting the spell affect greatclubs is homebrew.
Given the in-game definitions presented, I am correct in-game as well.
No you are not. Nowhere does anything say that greatclubs count as clubs. They are two distinct weapon entries.
Club, Great wrote:
This larger, bulkier version of the common club is heavy enough that you can’t wield it with one hand.

Ultimate Equipment Guide.

Not count as: is.


Snowlilly wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

You'll notice that, like your precious Greatclub, it has the "this is identical except X" clause. It also has the bolded part, which explicitly says that it counts as a Heavy Crossbow for abilities and proficiencies related to the Heavy Crossbow. This is example that I am talking about.

And it's not the only item. The Underwater Light Crossbow has similar text, along with the Composite Longbow/Shortbow to its regular counterparts. Does the Greatclub say that it counts as a Club for abilities and proficiencies related to the Club? No. It doesn't.

If we ruled out any text that was inconsistent with text located elsewhere, we would loose about half the combat and magic sections of the core rulebook, and most splatbooks.

Paizo does not word material consistently between chapters, let alone books.

If it troubles you, refer back where I earlier addressed this overwhelming concern of yours.

If all circumstances of such inconsistencies are the same, you'd be correct.

Fortunately, they're not, and a lot of them simply require terminology adjustments. So, I wouldn't worry about the fabric of the Pathfinder rules just because you want a Greatclub to work with the Shillelagh spell, but isn't explicitly worded to allow it because it doesn't match other, more well-known exceptions to the otherwise general rule.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Snowlilly wrote:
The words are there, in the rulebook, printed in black and white. One of us is choosing to disregard them.

In flavor text.

You can choose to interpret the rules that way, I can't stop you. You need to understand you are not helping the game by insisting only you can read and understand the rules. If you disagree, then consult your GM. If you come to my table where I'm a GM, your interpretation will not be RAW at that table. Accept that and move on.


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Snowlilly wrote:
Texas Snyper wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Texas Snyper wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:

They are both still clubs and, by definition, the same item can be both a club and a greatclub depending on who is wielding it and how they choose to wield it.

I find a branch laying on the ground. It is too heavy for me to use one-handed, but I can use it two handed. By definition a "greatclub".

I set the "greatclub" down. Cast Enlarge Person on myself and pick up the same branch which is now, by definition, a "club".

Nothing about the branch has changed.

Either way the branch is used, it is still defined as a club. If you disagree, refer to the quoted RAW text where it is stated in very, very simple terms that a greatclub is a type of club.

In the real world you are correct. But in the real world weapons don't have pre-assigned damage amounts attached to them. Pathfinder is a game of explicit rules. It sets the boundaries. There is nothing in the rules that, within the Pathfinder game system, supports the argument that a club and greatclub are interchangeable. Letting the spell affect greatclubs is homebrew.
Given the in-game definitions presented, I am correct in-game as well.
No you are not. Nowhere does anything say that greatclubs count as clubs. They are two distinct weapon entries.
Club, Great wrote:
This larger, bulkier version of the common club is heavy enough that you can’t wield it with one hand.

Ultimate Equipment Guide.

Not count as: is.

Then why are they separate entries and item types if you're trying to say they're the same thing? The moment you distinct one variant of something as separate from that something, you treat it as its own entity, independant from the subject it's related to.

You can't have it both ways. It either is an item that is different, or it's the same exact item (in which case, the Greatclub table entry and weapon description shouldn't exist, since it's actually a Club).


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Snowlilly wrote:
Club, Great wrote:
This larger, bulkier version of the common club is heavy enough that you can’t wield it with one hand.

Ultimate Equipment Guide.

Not count as: is.

Quote:
Curve Blade, Elven: Essentially a longer version of a scimitar, but with a thinner blade, the elven curve blade is exceptionally rare. You receive a +2 circumstance bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever a foe attempts to sunder your elven curve blade due to its flexible metal.

Elven curved blades are now scimitars according to Snowlilly. Weapon Focus(Club) applies to greatclubs too. Lets ignore the fact that the game explicitly lists both of these as different weapons and treats them as such. /s

Shillelagh wrote:
Your own nonmagical club or quarterstaff becomes a weapon...

The spell has [explicit weapon entry] or [explicit weapon entry] in the text.

Shillelagh wrote:
(a Small club or quarterstaff so transmuted deals 1d8 points of damage, a Medium 2d6, and a Large 3d6)

This part of the spell explicitly illustrates that it refers to the [club] weapon entry and not "club" as a broad weapon description. Greatclubs have different damage dice and are therefore excluded from its example, which means not included in the spell as a valid target.


If we start to assume that one weapon is the same as another, then weapon focus should apply to short swords, longswords and greatswords alike.

IMO, if you used a large-sized club i would allow shillelagh to be cast on it (with the proper penalty for it's size difference). Greatclubs? Nope.


Yeah, RAW is 100% clear on the fact that clubs and greatclubs are different weapons. They have different stats, different profiles, and even different proficiency requirements.

Now, it's a perfectly reasonable house-rule to say that the spell can work with greatclubs, and reverse-engineer the spell to come up with appropriate dice changes. However, that's a house-rule.


just do the spell research for "great shillelagh" and be done with it. that is if druids can do spell research.


James Risner wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
The words are there, in the rulebook, printed in black and white. One of us is choosing to disregard them.
Rules text I choose to ignore.

Fixed this for you.


Texas Snyper wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Club, Great wrote:
This larger, bulkier version of the common club is heavy enough that you can’t wield it with one hand.

Ultimate Equipment Guide.

Not count as: is.

Quote:
Curve Blade, Elven: Essentially a longer version of a scimitar, but with a thinner blade, the elven curve blade is exceptionally rare. You receive a +2 circumstance bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever a foe attempts to sunder your elven curve blade due to its flexible metal.
Elven curved blades are now scimitars according to Snowlilly. Weapon Focus(Club) applies to greatclubs too. Lets ignore the fact that the game explicitly lists both of these as different weapons and treats them as such. /s

Already addressed.

Snowlilly wrote:
Yes, it requires slightly more skill to use it effectively for increased damage in two hands, but the "club" itself is the same item regardless of designation.

To use the "greatclub" profile without a -4 penalty requires martial weapon proficiency. Lacking proficiency, the same stick may be used as an oversized "club" with slightly lower damage and a -2 penalty.

The same stick may be used in either manner, switching as the character sees fit.

Quote:
Shillelagh wrote:
Your own nonmagical club or quarterstaff becomes a weapon...

The spell has [explicit weapon entry] or [explicit weapon entry] in the text.

Shillelagh wrote:
(a Small club or quarterstaff so transmuted deals 1d8 points of damage, a Medium 2d6, and a Large 3d6)
This part of the spell explicitly illustrates that it refers to the [club] weapon entry and not "club" as a broad weapon description. Greatclubs have different damage dice and are therefore excluded from its example, which means not included in the spell as a valid target.

And I have repeatedly demonstrated exactly how, using existing mechanics, you are wrong.

Step 1: pick up stick classified as "large"
Step 2: declare stick is an oversized "club"
Step 3: cast "Shilelagh" on your "club"
Step 4: change your mind, it was really a greatclub.

This works because the difference between a club and a greatclub is, literally, semantics. You change what you call any given stick and its weapon profile changes. The stick itself does not. All clubs are greatclubs when wielded by a creature that requires two hands to wield. All greatclubs are clubs when wielded by a creature that requires only a single hand.

*excluding oversized and undersized weapon rules, abilities like jotungrip, etc.

Grand Lodge

Snowlilly wrote:


Step 1: pick up stick classified as "large"
Step 2: declare stick is an oversized "club"
Step 3: cast "Shilelagh" on your "club"
Step 4: change your mind, it was really a greatclub.

This works...

This doesn't work actually, as what you're describing would be an improvised weapon.

A club is defined as this:

CRB wrote:
This weapon is usually just a shaped piece of wood, sometimes with a few nails or studs embedded in it.

So a club is man-made, not just a random stick from off the ground.

As a sidenote Snowlily, would you treat weapon focus, weapon specialization, Improved critical, and all other weapon specific traits and feats as working with both greatclubs and clubs when club was chosen as well? Cuz that sure is a crazy 2 for 1 deal.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

snowlilly, you are relying on evidence that almost everyone has rejected as irrelevant. simply repeating it over and over again is not helping your case. clubs are free, and greatclubs are 5gp. how would you justify this difference?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Jurassic Pratt wrote:


As a sidenote Snowlily, would you treat weapon focus, weapon specialization, Improved critical, and all other weapon specific traits and feats as working with both greatclubs and clubs when club was chosen as well? Cuz that sure is a crazy 2 for 1 deal.

She keeps ignoring this point, I imagine he will keep ignoring it.


Snowlilly wrote:

And I have repeatedly demonstrated exactly how, using existing mechanics, you are wrong.

Step 1: pick up stick classified as "large"
Step 2: declare stick is an oversized "club"
Step 3: cast "Shilelagh" on your "club"
Step 4: change your mind, it was really a greatclub.

This works because the difference between a club and a greatclub is, literally, semantics. You change what you call any given stick and its weapon profile changes. The stick itself does not. All clubs are greatclubs when wielded by a creature that requires two hands to wield. All greatclubs are clubs when wielded by a creature that requires only a single hand.

You would be right... if there wasn't explicitly different weapon entries for club and greatclub. That alone creates a distinction between them. Add to that, the fact that one is a simple weapon and the other is martial and the difference is even wider. The rules literally draws a line between them and says they are different. There is no "lol j/k", that's not how the rules work.

There is [club] the weapon entry and then there is "club" which is analogous to "sword". The spell shillelagh cites "[club] and [quarterstaff]" for spell targets, not "'clubs' and [quarterstaff]". The damage dice example cited in the spell further reinforces that.

Quote:
*excluding oversized and undersized weapon rules, abilities like jotungrip, etc.

See look, you admit that it requires you to ignore game rules to be able to claim that they are the same thing. At least you've gotten to Step 1.


Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:


Step 1: pick up stick classified as "large"
Step 2: declare stick is an oversized "club"
Step 3: cast "Shilelagh" on your "club"
Step 4: change your mind, it was really a greatclub.

This works...

This doesn't work actually, as what you're describing would be an improvised weapon.

A club is defined as this:

CRB wrote:
This weapon is usually[b] just a [b]shaped piece of wood, sometimes with a few nails or studs embedded in it.

Emphasis mine.

Usually is an important word.

Quote:
So a club is man-made, not just a random stick from off the ground.

Usually: frequently, but not always.

Quote:

As a sidenote Snowlily, would you treat weapon focus, weapon specialization, Improved critical, and all other weapon specific traits and feats as working with both greatclubs and clubs when club was chosen as well? Cuz that sure is a crazy 2 for 1 deal.

Already answered, and requoted several times.

Quote:
It may be ornate and carved, reinforced with metal, or a simple branch from a tree.


You answered his question with a strawman, which means it's not really an answer at all.


Too bad the great club didn't include a line like the

Wahaika (Ultimate Equipment, pg. 20) wrote:


This short and broad Stone Age club is made of hardened wood or bone. It has a notch on one side that is used for catching weapons. If you are proficient with the weapon, you can use the notch in the wahaika to disarm your foes. Otherwise, treat this weapon as a club. Feats and abilities that affect clubs apply to the wahaika.

Without such a line, it really seems like the great club should not be treated as a club.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

kadance wrote:

Too bad the great club didn't include a line like the

Wahaika (Ultimate Equipment, pg. 20) wrote:


This short and broad Stone Age club is made of hardened wood or bone. It has a notch on one side that is used for catching weapons. If you are proficient with the weapon, you can use the notch in the wahaika to disarm your foes. Otherwise, treat this weapon as a club. Feats and abilities that affect clubs apply to the wahaika.
Without such a line, it really seems like the great club should not be treated as a club.

+1

Bet a donut Snowlilly will ignore this.

Scarab Sages

Nevan Oaks wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Doesn't matter. Spell says it works on Clubs and Quarterstaves, nothing else.

Actually the spell targets a nonmagical oak club or quarterstaff. Since you can't by or get an oak club the spell is only good for quarterstaffs.

That being said a club is a club IMO.

You failed that Linguistics check.

Nonmagical oak club or quarterstaff = means non-magic oak clubs or non-magic oak quarterstaves.

Nonmagical oak club, or quarterstaff = means non-magic oak club, or any quarterstaff.

That little comma is the difference.

As for weapons made of Oak, basically all your wooden clubs or quarterstaves are made of oak, unless you or the GM say otherwise. A Darkwood Club, for example, is not made of oak.

The GM may have settings where oak is non-existent, so the acquisition of oak wood may be impossible, even if you can find enough non-oak wood to make a club. Shillelagh is one of the easiest spells to limit, for the GM, as it's very dependent on it's target.


I generally allow it in my games. It's never been enough of an advantage to make a difference, and there's far better spells than it.

I wonder, for those arguing that greatclub = club:

If they're the same, why doesn't greatclub have a throwing range? Could it be because they're vastly different weapons?


I think we've all exhausted this subject. Somehow Snowlilly is the only one who can read the text and interpret it - apparently the rest of us (you know, those of us who perhaps parse the written word for a living or who have the capacity for abstract thought) must all be a bunch of drooling idiots.


I'm not sure why all the hate on snow Lilly she is not the only one with the same inturpitation on the spell none of you have shown a conclusive way either side is correct especially since you are all house ruling it work on clubs at all.

As I have pointed out earlier the spell targets oak clubs and since there are no rules for gaining a club made of oak (Pathfinder is exclusive) it can't happen.

The spell IMO is a copy past from a time before great clubs even existed. That being said both side have valid arguments and the spell most definitely needs an update.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

The spell doesn't need an update.

Club and quarterstaff are made of wood.
Pathfinder provides no guidance for what wood you use to make clubs, so oak is valid.
At worse the spell requires oak clubs, not cedar clubs.
The entire game system is designed such that club and greatclub are different weapons like long sword and great sword are.
John Compton the Pathfinder Society Lead Developer responded in this thread that the spell was designed with a damage cap so using it with a great club is beyond the design of the spell.

There is no problem here. Nothing needs fixed.

The Exchange

John Compton wrote:

The spell's level takes into account a certain amount of damage-boosting for its spell level, namely from 1d6 to 2d6 (or from 1d8 to 3d6 if Large). Allowing it to boost the damage dice of a greatclub by two sizes would certainly be powerful—likely more powerful than a 1st-level spell should be.

If a player were intent on targeting a greatclub with shillelagh (normally not a valid target), I'd likely just give it statistics as though the base weapon had been a club (i.e. 2d6 damage).

Speaking of... here is his post.

I see clearly where he points out that Greatclub would not be a valid target.

However I like his solution, if Snow Lilly, or anyone else were at my table and absolutely wanted to insist a Greatclub was a Club, I might allow them to cast the spell and increase their great club from 1d10 to 2d6. That should net them an avg +1.5 dmg/hit.


Doggan wrote:

I generally allow it in my games. It's never been enough of an advantage to make a difference, and there's far better spells than it.

I wonder, for those arguing that greatclub = club:

If they're the same, why doesn't greatclub have a throwing range? Could it be because they're vastly different weapons?

everything has a throwing range. if it is not listed it is improvised. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet. it is listed under improvised weapons.


For those who really want to deal big damage with their club, couldn't you just use a Large-sized Club and take the -2 penalty to hit (or no penalty for certain races/archetypes) and enjoy your 3d6 damage die club? (And it would be even higher if you had Enlarge Person on.)

This greatclub stuff seems rather unnecessary.

The Exchange

Inlaa wrote:

For those who really want to deal big damage with their club, couldn't you just use a Large-sized Club and take the -2 penalty to hit (or no penalty for certain races/archetypes) and enjoy your 3d6 damage die club? (And it would be even higher if you had Enlarge Person on.)

This greatclub stuff seems rather unnecessary.

Yes, as was brought up on the first page... Down side of longer threads I know. No one wants to read through everything.

Glorf Fei-Hung wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
The Shilelagh spell does not place a restriction on the size of club targeted, it states the damage is increased by two size categories and provides examples for the two most common weapon sizes. A storm giant druid casting shillelagh on a huge club would deal damage as if using a colossal club. That same weapon would count as either an oversized club or...

Here you are absolutely correct, a player can take a large club, 1d8, apply shillelagh to it making it 3d6, and use it 2 handed with a -2 penalty to hit as an improperly sized weapon.

They can then get another size increase from polymorph/enlarge person or any other 'actual' size increase, as Shillelah is an 'effective' size increase. This would make it 4d6 total damage (assuming only 1 size increase, or 6d6 with a 2 size increase)

(Ok I edited that last paragraph of my post, I'd rushed through the reading of the FAQ on stacking Size changes. I correct it here.)


4d6 damage with a walloping stick ain't bad.


Quote:

This works because the difference between a club and a greatclub is, literally, semantics. You change what you call any given stick and its weapon profile changes. The stick itself does not. All clubs are greatclubs when wielded by a creature that requires two hands to wield. All greatclubs are clubs when wielded by a creature that requires only a single hand.

*excluding oversized and undersized weapon rules, abilities like jotungrip, etc.

Yes, please, let's ignore written rules for the sake of convenience.

No.
Large clubs are two-handed weapons for a medium creature with a -2 penalty for being oversized.
Greatclubs are two-handed weapons for a medium creature, without any penalty for oversizing.

Large clubs are one-handed weapons for a large creature, without any penalty for undersizing.
Greatclubs are one-handed weapons for a large creature with a -2 penalty for being undersized.


The answer to the original question is:

First, check with your GM if you can use it that way (as evidenced by the long debate in this thread). Then, it would be 4d8 for damage dice, if you can.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Doesn't matter. Spell says it works on Clubs and Quarterstaves, nothing else.

If somebody wields a Greatclub or a Bo Staff, it won't work with them.

Also, if Greatclubs and Clubs are the same, then why do they have different entries in the weapon table?

only it doesnt. The quarterstaff and club are not capitalized in the spell description, meaning its using the generic term rather than the specific weapon. Like if a spell said it worked on swords you wouldnt need to find a weapon called Sword.


Baval wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Doesn't matter. Spell says it works on Clubs and Quarterstaves, nothing else.

If somebody wields a Greatclub or a Bo Staff, it won't work with them.

Also, if Greatclubs and Clubs are the same, then why do they have different entries in the weapon table?

only it doesnt. The quarterstaff and club are not capitalized in the spell description, meaning its using the generic term rather than the specific weapon. Like if a spell said it worked on swords you wouldnt need to find a weapon called Sword.

Weapon names (and for that matter, class names) aren't capitalized in the middle of a sentence ever. So the fact the spell description has them in lower case letters means nothing.


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Hey anyone want to go to a club tonight?

Anyone...anyone?

Come on I know this great club just around the corner...

Scarab Sages

James Risner wrote:

The spell doesn't need an update.

Club and quarterstaff are made of wood.
Pathfinder provides no guidance for what wood you use to make clubs, so oak is valid.
At worse the spell requires oak clubs, not cedar clubs.

Basically, the target being Oak, prevents you from using it on Darkwood, Yellowwood, or other, specific, types of wooden weapons.

Plus, the GM (or the player) could specify that a given weapon was a different material.

I also recall that there are specific magic weapons that are clubs or quarterstaves, which are made of other materials. If the weapon were to lose it's magical enhancements, it would revert to being a non-magical, but should retain it's materials.

The Exchange

Baval wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Doesn't matter. Spell says it works on Clubs and Quarterstaves, nothing else.

If somebody wields a Greatclub or a Bo Staff, it won't work with them.

Also, if Greatclubs and Clubs are the same, then why do they have different entries in the weapon table?

only it doesnt. The quarterstaff and club are not capitalized in the spell description, meaning its using the generic term rather than the specific weapon. Like if a spell said it worked on swords you wouldnt need to find a weapon called Sword.

If a spell said it works on weapons from the blades fighter weapon group you would be correct. Same as if shillelagh said it worked on weapons from the hammers fighter weapon group.

But there are no sword weapon groups so no spells would ever say they work on all swords. Same a there is no club weapon group and no spells say they work on all clubs.

Alternatively if it worked on any weapon with "club" in the name that would also be mentioned, as it is with orc, dwarf... weapon proficiencies.


what if the spell called out a medium quorterstaff and a normal club as just an example of what could be effected by the spell and just didnt give any other examples of staffs or clubs

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
zainale wrote:
it says it in its name. that's like saying toothpaste is not paste because it does not have a descriptor like glue does, both are pastes. or swords and katanas *warning may dispence cuts*

And the gentleman club is used by gentlemen to hit people, right?

When a spell say:
"Target one touched nonmagical oak club or quarterstaff"
it work on a oak club or a oak quartestaff, not on any club like object.
So it don't work on a testubo, a greatclub, or a beer bottle even if some of them are used in a way similar to a club.

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