Need practical advice for aether kineticist


Advice


I'm playing an aether kineticist in a new custom (GM-written) campaign that is focused on oceanic adventures. We're exploring a new world! This is my first kineticist and I could use some help thinking about how to get off to a good start with this class.

My character is a goblin telekineticist with these stats:

ST 8
DX 20
CO 18
IN 14
W 10
CH 8
(32 pt. buy)

I think my role in the party will be to handle the rogue-y things out of combat, and ranged support in combat. So my main questions in the short term are:

1) choice of feats between:
toughness
point blank shot
precise shot

2) which stat should I focus as I level up? Con or dex?

and a longer term question would be:

3) choice of expanded element. I've read over a couple wonderful guides (N Jolly's guide & aether kineticist guide from Sphynx) and I think I most like one of these 2:

aether/air
aether/earth

which is basically a choice between ranged and melee I think. I love the whole AoO gambit that kinetic whip & kinetic form opens up, especially with a high dex goblin. But I am concerned that a kineticist won't be able to do well in melee. I'd love to get some advice from anyone who's played either of those combos in the wild.


You need to get precise shot as fast as you can, ranged attacks are awful before that feat.

Dex is a bit better than con from damage, though both effect different DCs of your blasts. But damage wise 1 accuracy is worth about 2 damage, so dex up gives accuracy while con up gives damage.

I haven't played this so no personal experience, but I'd suggest air. Flying, especially when doing discovery stuff, would probably be better than what earth can offer.


I've a level 8 aether kineticist in PFS. Went full aether. Super fun. Doubled up on aether to get foe throw at level 7, which has proven amazing in play.

Your kinetic buffer defense talent thingy gives you remarkable amounts of resilience, and does it without taxing your healer. You can literally make dozens of damage disappear over the course of a day, provided you have a few minutes to breathe (and regenerate your hp shield) between fights. Kinetic whip works quite well, really letting you throw damage around, but don't overlook the utility and control that foe throw can provide. I've thrown bad guys off cliffs, into ceilings above pits, and at each other with great results.

Out of combat, your tk ability renders most pits, cliffs, and terrain challenges relatively obsolete. Need to ford a river with your wagons? Hoist em over. Need to get up or down a cliff face? Hoist your team up with that plank of wood you're carrying around(or that nearby tree.) X-wing sunk into the swamp? Raise it out and set her down on dry land. Goblins from the deeps ascending to assault your fellowship? Move that busted stone pillar to block the door, then lower your team down the well the idiot halfling dropped a corpse down. Bad guys ran inside a two story building? Lift your fighter up to the balcony to cut off their escape route. You have most of a level 5 spell in your pocket, so leverage it. You could pick the lock of the door, or you can blast it off its hinges and ride it through the dungeon as a hoverboard of comical size!


Dex is better than con for dishing out damage but pumping con will give you more hp and lets you take more burn so you can do more stuff. I'd recommend plotting out the wild talents you want and seeing how many of them have burn before deciding to focuse on dex or con.
Air would probably be better for a ranged attacker, but water and earth is better for a melee build since it boosts your defenses. For the concept you are talking about I'd recommend going air and sticking to ranged stuff. You'll be able to fly at level 10 that way. Since aether is a physical blast id recommend getting pbs and precise shot before anything else.


I think you can build Aether into earth and Aether into air pretty similarly for the first few levels so the shape of the campaign can help dictate how comfortable you are at being close. Like "where and what you're fighting" is going to make a difference about how close you are/can be. Also the rest of the party is going to dictate which is more appropriate. I've played both and have enjoyed both. Air seems better for an oceanic campaign.

Even if you're taking Kinetic Blade as a low level talent, this is still handy sometimes even if you don't build for it so you can gather power and attack without provoking. You won't get Kinetic Whip until level 8, so you get a lot of time to feel this out.

I would put your leveling up stats into Con, but you should shell out for a Dex/Con belt. Get a +6/+6 one eventually; you don't have a lot else ot buy.

As for feats, Precise Shot is a priority. Get that ASAP. You can wait a while on Toughness; you have 18 Con.


1) PBS and Precise Shot should be gotten asap. As a physical blaster you need the accuracy gains. Toughness is a very meh feat and only get it if you really have no other good choices. Weapon finesse would be a good pick up if you end up getting KBlade. (My character traded Pushing for KBlade and picked up W.Finesse at the same time at level 5). Other than those, weapon focus is a decent grab. After that you can get whatever you want for flavor/fun because not much else will really "add" more power.

2) As physical DEX > CON because you need the accuracy. As energy CON > DEX because you target touch AC and need the dmg boost. If you expand at 7 to an energy blast then keep them ~ equal

3) Both are quite solid although for an oceanic focused campaign I'd say air would be better. Pick up lightning and then at 15 you can get water for charged water composite. If you go water then definitely pick up the defense talent for the free water shield AC. Which would help in melee.


Actually its a very good point that being able to fly will be useful in the campaign as its been described. I'll probably stick with ranged attacking and go with air to get constant fly. And I think I'll grab precise shot first, then PBS, then branch out.

Regarding dex/con choices I'm still not sure what to do. I see the trade off, and it I understand the advice you guys are giving I should probably stick with dex since my main blast is physical for the time being. What still worries me here is that my max burn is limited based on my con. This character has ridiculously good stats since its an epic point buy build, but even with 18 con that is only giving me 7 burn. And if I pump all my stat buys into dex, I can eventually expect a +6 con item at best, that will be 10 burn at the high end. Is that enough? I just don't know enough about playing this class yet to know if the difference between 10 max burn and I guess 12 max burn would make a difference. In play will I find that I am always maxing out my daily burn and then sit there helpless, only being able to do my mediocre 0 burn tricks? I guess the difference between 10 and 12 isn't that much anyway. And on average this dude will probably have around 4.5 + con hp/lvl anyway, so maybe I shouldn't be thinking of burning myself down near 0 to begin with.

How does it play for real? Do you usually finesse your burn costs to near 0 anyway and just spend enough to max elemental overflow? Or to keep up with other classes do I need to spend my burn like others spend spells?

Thanks for all the responses, this is really helping me out.


The main play for a physical blast user is to max your overflow bonus and use gather power to fuel most of your attacks. (this will still leave you a decent amount of burn available for the day to use if desired)

The class is designed to do this.
lv1-4 your full attack is gather and add an infusion.
lv5-10 your full attack is gather and empower
lv11- your full attack is gather and composite.

This is the main full attack routine for them. Taking more burn regularly is not needed to keep up, but it's available if you need it.
Burn should not be viewed like spells, needing to be used to keep up, because you clearly don't get enough burn allowance to try that.


In play, I've seem most attacks get reduced down to 0 before the blast, but there are at times some mega attacks (like maximized chain lightning) that you want to set aside some burn for. Elemental overflow is generally triggered with elemental defense or similar abilities.

To help with the burn, which can add up, I recommend getting toughness. It's not a feat I often recommend, but kineticists needs it.

Dark Archive

I also play an 8th level Aether Kineticist in PFS.

Point Blank and Precise Shot are key. After that, I went with boring feats that are still extremely effective. Toughness for health, Iron Will to compensate for a poor will save, Weapon Focus because you only use one kind of attack. At this point, Extra Wild Talent is about to come online, but Improved Initiative might beat it out.
Remember that Disable Device is not on your class list, and this is a huge flaw of the element. You'll want to pick up the Vagabond Child trait to get that covered.
For ability scores, Dex and Con are roughly equal, but for physical blasters I make Dex slightly higher. My rule of thumb is that Dex starts a little higher, and it gets the first belt (before I upgrade to a Dex + Con belt) but I add level-up ability points to the stat that lags behind.
I also went double dip into Aether, but I selected Self Telekinesis instead of Throw Foe. It was painful to delay that for another two levels, but I embraced the utility role of this element to its fullest. Now my Kineticist has at-will invisibility and a wonky "fly speed" that allows him a lot of freedom in scouting and tactical positioning.
Kinetic Blade is kinda bad for this element. Remember that you break whatever you swing, so at best you can wear a disposable cestus on each hand and have a backup attack for melee. Going Kinetic Whip works better for other elements and you kind of have to build around it.


What is the advantage to going Aether as your second element (if it is your first too)?


Force blasts and an extra wild talent. Force blast is unfortunately fairly rubbish and as nice as some of aether's wild talents are, I don't rank them highly enough to stick with it for your expanded rather than grabbing a touch attack element.


Rylar wrote:
What is the advantage to going Aether as your second element (if it is your first too)?

Infusion gained at level 7. Waiting til 9 for Foe Throw or Kinetic Whip wasn't something I wanted to do.


Rosc wrote:
Kinetic Blade is kinda bad for this element. Remember that you break whatever you swing, so at best you can wear a disposable cestus on each hand and have a backup attack for melee. Going Kinetic Whip works better for other elements and you kind of have to build around it.

My telekineticist who was a kinetic blade/whip character was a juggler and a stage magician. I used one of those "endless handkerchiefs" that are a bunch of magician's silks all tied together. We figured each attempt just destroyed a handful of the silks, so I could just pull more out of my sleeve.


Does kinetic blade/whip get iteratives? The wording confused me since it starts by saying "you can form this infusion ONCE as part of an attack action..." but then later is says "the kinetic blade deals your kinetic blast damage on EACH hit...". Also, can you use a composite blast as your kinetic blade? Or only one of your basic blasts?

I had been thinking of the synergy of using kinetic whip + combat reflexes to threaten a lot of enemies across a big chunk of the battlefield with a heavy hit. Why do you say that aether doesn't work well with that combo? I don't wanna waste my very limited slots on this stuff if I'm never going to use it, but it does seem pretty cool to me. For building around the combo I think I need:

kinetic blade
kinetic whip
weapon finesse
combat reflexes

That doesn't seem too bad, although I guess 2 talents and 2 feats is a good amount. Hmm, that is a hard call. I'm in a smallish party so I need to be able to hold my ground in a fight, I can't go all utility. But that is a lot of slots that I could use for other stuff.

Am I missing something why this is not useful for aether? Is it just the weakness of aether only having a simple blast vs other elements having composite to pump into the whip?


Kinetic Blade, Whip, and Fist all get iteratives, yes. Also, per the hot off the presses FAQ they benefit from Haste (which the Kinetic blast does not.)

Your accuracy with your iterative attacks probably won't be great, but it's another reason to go air next so you can use a lightning whip to get around AC and an aether whip to get around spell resistance.


Aether doesn't work so well because you have to use a physical item to attack and that item takes damage, resulting in it being destroyed. So you need to solve for the need to draw new items on every swing of your full attack.


Ryzoken wrote:
Aether doesn't work so well because you have to use a physical item to attack and that item takes damage, resulting in it being destroyed. So you need to solve for the need to draw new items on every swing of your full attack.

I figure you can work out a way to use the same item for multiple attacks, like if you're using a ball of yarn as your kinetic whip, letting out approximately 10' to swing around, the part that gets destroyed is the part that you're hitting somebody with not the part that you're holding, and maybe you can finagle "unspooling more yarn" as a free action.

Dark Archive

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Rosc wrote:
Kinetic Blade is kinda bad for this element. Remember that you break whatever you swing, so at best you can wear a disposable cestus on each hand and have a backup attack for melee. Going Kinetic Whip works better for other elements and you kind of have to build around it.
My telekineticist who was a kinetic blade/whip character was a juggler and a stage magician. I used one of those "endless handkerchiefs" that are a bunch of magician's silks all tied together. We figured each attempt just destroyed a handful of the silks, so I could just pull more out of my sleeve.

Hah! That idea is amazing. A shame it would never fly in PFS. Also a shame because Aether is the only element that requires you to be holding something to actually Kinetic Blade the thing, which gets in the way of Gather Power.

Shadow Lodge

The destruction of what you throw is a drawback, but it can be easily remedied. My level 10 PFS kineticst usually throws crossbows at people, which gets a little expensive, or anything else around, like rocks, people, and waffle irons, but there's nothing saying you can't use a dust mote to an equal effect. Decapitating people with dust motes and flung crossbows...that was the beauty I saw in the telekineticist.


Oh crap, now I see the problem! For some reason when Rosc said the item would break I was thinking about TK invis 'breaking' when I made an attack. Damn, I am an idiot sometimes... So the trick is finding a way to get around that problem.

Would quick draw and a bag of copper pieces work? Kinetic blade says a telekineticist transfers its blast into ANY object held in one hand, and kinetic blast doesn't have a lower weight limit, only an upper one. Then quick draw says you can draw a weapon as a free action. Would that combination let me use a handful of coins (or pebbles or whatever) for a series of AoO? I also really like the scarf gimmick, but this characters theme is going to be that he railguns copper pieces at people :)

Also, does kinetic blade/whip use a composite blast if you have one? Or does it limit all elements to using their simple blast? I can see why that would also make it a weak choice for aether compared to the other elements.


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I figure a quiver of arrows is your default way of getting around items breaking. There's no question about drawing arrows being a free action.

Dark Archive

Khurgen wrote:

Oh crap, now I see the problem! For some reason when Rosc said the item would break I was thinking about TK invis 'breaking' when I made an attack. Damn, I am an idiot sometimes... So the trick is finding a way to get around that problem.

Would quick draw and a bag of copper pieces work? Kinetic blade says a telekineticist transfers its blast into ANY object held in one hand, and kinetic blast doesn't have a lower weight limit, only an upper one. Then quick draw says you can draw a weapon as a free action. Would that combination let me use a handful of coins (or pebbles or whatever) for a series of AoO? I also really like the scarf gimmick, but this characters theme is going to be that he railguns copper pieces at people :)

Also, does kinetic blade/whip use a composite blast if you have one? Or does it limit all elements to using their simple blast? I can see why that would also make it a weak choice for aether compared to the other elements.

My Kineticist also throws coppers at people. The way I run it is buying a belt pouch and having one gold piece broken down to 100 copper. I carry the coinpurse in hand because it's not very threatening in a social situation, and it tends to make my character a lower threat priority if he loses initiative. During combat I drop the coin bag as a free action, which allows the coins to spill out. Boom, a pile of thematic ammo that's easy to track.

I'm thinking of getting silver (and eventually gold) to throw at bosses and VIPs now that he has a solid income.

As for Kinetic Blade/Whip, they're both Universal infusions, which tend to be compatible with all elements. And that "all" part is a brilliant bit of future proofing for any new elements that Paizo ever produces.


avr wrote:
I figure a quiver of arrows is your default way of getting around items breaking. There's no question about drawing arrows being a free action.

I use shuriken. Added coolness from being able to emulate the railgun of Tokiwadai without the annoyance of arguing about the action economy of drawing a coin.


...Wait. Wait.

You know what's even cooler than dropping a bag of coppers onto the ground?

A BAG OF MAAARBLEEEEES!1one!!eleven1!1

Ahem.

Bags of marbles may weigh more than 100 coppers but you get to literally use your telekinetic powers and kill people with marbles. To me, that sounds awesome.

Also worth considering: having a deck of playing cards in hand (and spares in your pockets), using a bag of dice the same way as the coins / marbles (which lets you say crap like "Let's leave it up to chance!" as you impale a dude's skull with a pair of dice, followed up by "Oh, he got snake eyes.")...

Ooo, or fruits and vegetables? You could hurl a rotten tomato at someone and KILL THEM WITH IT, then boo for good measure.

...Maybe with Quick Draw and calling rotten fruit an improvised thrown weapon you can draw fruit as a free action...


I'm a big fan of teacups for aether kineticists.

Go for point blank and the rest of the chain if you expect to be able to be at range most of the time, but I'd make sure I had Weapon Finesse and Kinetic Blade for those times you can't move out of the way.

Also, are you ppl sure the object used for kinetic blade is damaged by the blast ? Kinetic Fist is an infusion as well, do you take the damage from your blast with each attack ?


Alderic wrote:

I'm a big fan of teacups for aether kineticists.

Go for point blank and the rest of the chain if you expect to be able to be at range most of the time, but I'd make sure I had Weapon Finesse and Kinetic Blade for those times you can't move out of the way.

Also, are you ppl sure the object used for kinetic blade is damaged by the blast ? Kinetic Fist is an infusion as well, do you take the damage from your blast with each attack ?

Hmm. On reread, I'm not sure. Here's the relevant texts:

Telekinetic Blast wrote:
You throw a nearby unattended object at a single foe as a ranged attack. The object must weigh no more than 5 pounds per kineticist level you possess. If the attack hits, the target and the thrown object each take the blast's damage. Since the object is enfolded in strands of aether, even if you use this power on a magic weapon or other unusual object, the attack doesn't use any of the magic weapon's bonuses or effects; it simply deals your blast damage. Alternatively, you can loosen the strands of aether in order to deal damage to both the object and the target as though you had thrown the object yourself (instead of dealing your normal blast damage). You substitute your Constitution modifier for your Strength modifier if throwing the object would have added your Strength modifier on the damage roll, and you don't take the –4 penalty on the attack roll for throwing an object that wasn't designed to be thrown. In this case, the object's special effects apply (including effects from its materials), and if the object is a weapon, you must be proficient with it and able to wield it with one hand; otherwise, the item deals damage as a one-handed improvised weapon for a creature of your size.

Bolding mine, for emphasis.

Kinetic Blade wrote:

You form a weapon using your kinetic abilities. You create a non-reach, light or one-handed weapon in your hand formed of pure energy or elemental matter. (If you're a telekineticist, you instead transfer the power of your kinetic blast to any object held in one hand.) The kinetic blade's shape is purely cosmetic and doesn't affect the damage dice, critical threat range, or critical multiplier of the kinetic blade, nor does it grant the kinetic blade any weapon special features. The object held by a telekineticist for this form infusion doesn't prevent her from using gather power.

You can use this form infusion once as part of an attack action, a charge action, or a full-attack action in order to make melee attacks with your kinetic blade. Since it's part of another action (and isn't an action itself), using this wild talent doesn't provoke any additional attacks of opportunity. The kinetic blade deals your kinetic blast damage on each hit (applying any modifiers to your kinetic blast's damage as normal, but not your Strength modifier). The blade disappears at the end of your turn. The weapon deals the same damage type that your kinetic blast deals, and it interacts with Armor Class and spell resistance as normal for a blast of its type. Even if a telekineticist uses this power on a magic weapon or another unusual object, the attack doesn't use any of the magic weapon's bonuses or effects and simply deals the telekineticist's blast damage. The kinetic blade doesn't add the damage bonus from elemental overflow.

Kinetic Blade doesn't specifically alter Telekinetic Blast's self damage clause, so I'm tempted to argue it remains functional. I don't know how that operates, then, with Kinetic Fist, given it also doesn't modify the self damage clause from Telekinetic Blast. That said, I enjoy the mental image of a Telekinetic Fist attack injuring the user, if not the mechanical implications.


I agree that a Telekinetic Kinetic Blade should probably damage the item you're using this for, but there are ways around this so you can full attack. There's a lot of "ask your GM" when it comes to how the telekineticist works, but something like "using arrows as your telekinetic blade" should be something where you an draw as many as you have attacks as free actions. If you're using a coil of rope for a kinetic whip, you probably shouldn't destroy the entire rope, just a section of it.

Interestingly, however, the CRB does say

Quote:
For example, a bludgeoning weapon cannot be used to damage a rope.

Since you can choose to have your telekinetic blast do bludgeoning damage, you *could* argue that it cannot damage a rope in doing so.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I have a level 4 TK in PFS. At one point I pretended to be a cleric (i have kinetic healing) and through Holy Symbols at people. I bought 20 of them at the start of a scenario, 1 for each core deity then everytime we talked to a new person I would pull out the next one. At one point I had to free some captives and pulled out the Rovagug holy symbol and told them they were being freed in the name of Rovagug. Btw, no ranks in Kn:Religion.


Back to business:

Telekinetic Finesse, trait to get Disable Device as a class skill, or that other trait that lets you disable magical traps if you want to play the trapfinder role.

Focus on Dex, your Con is high enough as it is, and you'll be getting a size bonus to it anyway, plus magic items.

I like to expand into air or water


Got to play for the first time over the weekend and I'm liking the character. My GM ruled that if I take the quick draw feat he'll let me use a handful of coins for kinetic whip AoO. Was fun flicking coins at stuff :) At this point my little dude is probably the most combat effective person in the group. Having a high dex and being small gives a great base to hit and a high stealth, and the damage and hp are awesome for lvl 1 since its con based. I guess I will fall off the damage curve at lvl 7 when everyone else is getting iteratives but aether won't be giving me a useful composite blast. But even then I will pick up a touch based energy blast so that makes up partway. This class seems like it will be very fun!


You really shouldn't need quick draw, go talk to your GM again. Ammo can be drawn as a free action. Arrows, sling pellets, etc are all free action draws. Functionally the only difference between a sling pellet and a coin is that one is also a money.

Also, your damage really doesn't fall off much around there because that is when you gain empower. Gather power + empower metakinesis is basically your "full attack".


I really feel like the fact that the telekineticist throws things that are already there rather than drawing some element from the appropriate plane of existence is supposed to be more about flavor than a downside of choosing aether.

I mean, sure the GM could take away everything you're carrying and put you in a completely empty room with smooth walls/floors/ceilings and ask you to fight, but the GM could go out of his or her way to negate or otherwise hose any class, the thing we're relying on preventing GMs from doing this is the "don't be a jerk" rule.

It should honestly be easier for the Telekineticist to draw ammunition than other people, since the telekineticist doesn't need to use his or her hands. You could, theoretically just have a bunch of handkerchiefs hanging out of your many pockets and you could grab the corner of one with telekinesis and hurl it at somebody. Or be gambit and use a deck of cards that you have in a pocket (from experience the juggler/stage magician is a great gimmick for a telekineticist, after all the item "Juggling Kit" doesn't specify how many balls, rings, clubs, torches are in there; so it shouldn't run out any faster than a wizard's component pouch).

As for falling off with damage, no kineticist can use composite blasts regularly before level 11 (when they get supercharge and can gather power in order to use a composite without taking burn). Going aether first just means you stick with the "devote one burn to empower for 1.5x damage" instead of switching to "supercharge for 2 burn to use a composite blast" from levels 11 to 15. At 15 you get your third element and you catch up to everybody else. Just use that extra point of burn you have access to once you start supercharging for something else instead.

(Also don't forget that eventual elemental overflow gives you stat bonuses, those help a lot.)


Well... at lvl 6 you get a boost to Dex and Con, and while you don't get a real Composite Blast at 7th, those cost two Burn, so most kineticists won't use them that often till later.
At 7th you also have a blast that deals 4d6+13 (5 from Con and 4 for EO) which you can empower, it's about 40 Avg damage if I'm not mistaken, which does not sound too bad.
You might also have other tricks up your sleeve, like being invisible most of the time.
Too bad the only kineticists I get to play are NPCs :(

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