Spell Perfection & Quicken Spell / FAQ Request


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber

Can you use the Quicken Spell metamagic feat with the Spell Perfection feat?

In another thread, it was stated that by RAW one can't use Quicken Spell with Spell Perfection because in the description:

Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.

To me, it seems that the clear intent was that a spontaneous caster could get a metamagic enhancement without increasing the casting time to a full round, and all casters get the benefit of not raising the spell slot used. It doesn't make sense to say that because Quicken alters the casting time it can't be used in conjunction with spell perfection as this metamagic feat is IMHO one of the best uses of spell perfection. A free use of a +4 metamagic feat, yes please.

Scarab Sages

Spell Perfection wrote:
"Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level."

Now, where this sentence says "without affecting its level or casting time" applies to the part that says "you may apply any one metamagic feat to that spell".

As in, the application of the metamagic feat does not affect the level or the casting time of the spell. Applying a metatmagic feat naturally raises its spell level and, in the case of spontaneous casters, affects the casting time. This is separate from the actual effect of the metamagic feat.
Basically, Spell Perfection allows you to apply a metamagic feat without having to pay the normal cost of doing so. This says nothing about nor limits what the metamagic feat may do once it is applied.

I will remind, though, that Heighten Spell comes with a caveat that you may only receive the effect if you actually pay for the effect.

Someone reading this to mean that you can't use Quicken Spell sounds more like a purposeful attempt to nerf the ability despite the intention of the ability.


Lorewalker wrote:
Someone reading this to mean that you can't use Quicken Spell sounds more like a purposeful attempt to nerf the ability despite the intention of the ability.

Or an example of honoring strict RAW above clearly common sense RAI.

Scarab Sages

_Ozy_ wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Someone reading this to mean that you can't use Quicken Spell sounds more like a purposeful attempt to nerf the ability despite the intention of the ability.
Or an example of honoring strict RAW above clearly common sense RAI.

Yet nothing in the text here says anything to the effect that you can't apply the feat. The sentence does not speak of a limitation. In fact, for a wizard, you can delete the portion that says "or casting time" as "you may apply" "without affecting... or casting time".

Sure, I can see someone trying to say that if you choose to use the ability and apply the bit about casting time then you lose the effect of the feat(though you can always apply it without cost).
But if you are going to suggest blind faith to RAW as a reason... then by RAW you have a choice on whether you accept either part of the or statement.
Meaning a sorcerer loses out, but a wizard would have no issues. Which, of course, is another good reason to not take such a view.


Lorewalker wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Someone reading this to mean that you can't use Quicken Spell sounds more like a purposeful attempt to nerf the ability despite the intention of the ability.
Or an example of honoring strict RAW above clearly common sense RAI.

Yet nothing in the text here says anything to the effect that you can't apply the feat. The sentence does not speak of a limitation. In fact, for a wizard, you can delete the portion that says "or casting time" as "you may apply" "without affecting... or casting time".

Sure, I can see someone trying to say that if you choose to use the ability and apply the bit about casting time then you lose the effect of the feat(though you can always apply it without cost).
But if you are going to suggest blind faith to RAW as a reason... then by RAW you have a choice on whether you accept either part of the or statement.
Meaning a sorcerer loses out, but a wizard would have no issues. Which, of course, is another good reason to not take such a view.

Unless of course, as a GM or Player, you really hate sorcerers. :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber

Oh I agree. Spell perfection clearly wasn't intended to prevent use of quicken spell, and I was a bit surprised when someone in the heighten spell+spell perfection thread stated that by RAW you couldn't use quicken spell. Don't know how prevalent such a view is but clearly some read it that way. In any event, a clarification on the interaction of some metamagic feats such as heightened spell which would behave strangely when combined with spell perfection would I believe help


Spell Perfection:

Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three metamagic feats.

Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.

Pick (1) spell you know and cast it Quickened - meeting the other requirements. It doesn't say any one but the Quicken Spell metamagic feat. Why is there a need to FAQ that?

Scarab Sages

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Unless of course, as a GM or Player, you really hate sorcerers. :)

heh Fair enough.

Scarab Sages

Agodeshalf wrote:

Oh I agree. Spell perfection clearly wasn't intended to prevent use of quicken spell, and I was a bit surprised when someone in the heighten spell+spell perfection thread stated that by RAW you couldn't use quicken spell. Don't know how prevalent such a view is but clearly some read it that way. In any event, a clarification on the interaction of some metamagic feats such as heightened spell which would behave strangely when combined with spell perfection would I believe help

There is a FAQ for Heighten Spell.

If you don't actually pay for the increase by raising the level of the spell you do not gain any benefit. The increase can only come from the effect of heighten spell to count.


Side note: Heighten doesn't do anything for Spell Perfection, or at least it shouldn't. They conflict in purpose.

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