I'm debating on whether to play one of the three classes mentioned in the title. I'm submitting a character as part of an application to a PbP thread and this is what I know:
1. I'll be playing a Lizardfolk. I finally have a real chance of using a Lizardfolk character. Awesome.
2. One of the other players will for sure be a Sorcerer.
3. I want to have a decent number of skill points; I need Linguistics at level 1, and I want my character to be playing the role of a guide in natural terrain. Ergo, Ranger seems like the most natural choice.
Given that, my basic character ideas are as follows:
Lizardfolk Divine Tracker Ranger (Melee)
I'd choose to worship Gorum with this setup, or I'd opt to follow a philosophy of some kind (lizardfolk don't seem particularly religious according to what I've read, and they're not animists). Destruction would be a domain of choice for sure, allowing me to add 1/2 my level to my damage for 1 minute (as a swift action with Quicken Blessing).
I suppose I could go for a TWF build if I use the Destruction blessing, since all my attacks would benefit, but that might mean not using Power Attack. After all, Power Attack AND TWF = lots of attack penalties - unless there's a good way to counteract this?
This build appeals to me the most as it provides Swift Tracker and similar abilities, letting me play up the wilderness guide to the fullest.
Lizardfolk Divine Tracker Ranger (Thrown)
Alternatively, I could focus on using thrown weapons, aiming to grab a Blinkback Belt of Mighty Hurling ASAP (which is, what, 21500 gold?). Chakrams or javelins could be used to good effect, and I could enjoy the Wind and Destruction blessings by adhering to a philosophy.
For the style I'd choose the Archery combat style for improved precise shot at level 6 and some other nifty benefits. I'd be using Deadly Aim + the Startoss Style feat chain to boost my damage (since Weapon Spec is unavailable). For equipment, I could simply use my chakram in melee (though I'd risk hurting myself) or I could an amulet of mighty fists to take advantage of my three natural attacks.
Lizardfolk Siegebreaker Fighter / ???
I love how this build plays out, but I'm not sure it's the best fit.
Basically, I'd take 2 levels of Fighter followed by levels of <something else>, focusing on using the Bulette Style chain of feats to bull rush enemies like a madman. Perhaps Bloodrager or Barbarian would make a good follow-up after those two levels?
I feel as if combining this with Shield Slam and the feat that lets you wield a shield two-handed could be really fun as well. The idea would be to bull rush into enemy lines, then repeatedly shield bash with free bull rush attempts on my enemies. Tack on magical shield spikes and this starts to seem really fun.
The downside is the poor number of skill points at the first two levels, and the fact that it doesn't come across as a good "Guide" without a trait to give Survival as a class skill. Any advice here?
Lizardfolk Barbarian
Straightforward: get mad, beat stuff up. Wield a big weapon. Enjoy.
As odd as this sounds, I've never built a barbarian, so I don't know what the first steps would be besides the typical Power Attack and whack things over the head setup. Part of me thinks that Mooncursed Barbarian would be cool for free pounce in hybrid form at level 5 (with a greatsword that sounds AMAZING), but I don't think the flavor of a tiger-lizard is that great. Then again, a crocodile lizard could make a great natural attack build...
In general,
Do you folks have any thoughts as to what makes a great build for this concept or how you would go about optimizing the character? I want to be effective, but I also want to fulfill my role just fine. As said, the Ranger seems like the most attractive setup fluffwise right now, but I'm not sure how it'll pan out.
lizardfolk work really well for a natural attack build since they start with the three best natural attacks.
I'm not sure if this is an option, but there's the bloodrager archetype, Id rager, that if you pick anger gets skill focus survival to really boost their guide-ness at lv1 while getting rage and power attack while raging.
You could always start barb or bloodrager and take the extra rage feat and then take the rest of your levels as ranger to get lots of skills.
Yeah, the natural attack build angle is one I've been considering. I could also take the Dangerous Tail feat to get an extra natural attack, and if I go the Ranger route I can get Multiattack pretty easily. Armor Spikes can be used as a secondary attack IIRC, giving the character 5 attacks a turn by level 6. And I could get Rend via Ranger as well.
Anything else you'd suggest if I went that route?
Well there is also the Nature Fang Druid. Not as many skills but you do get Studied Target, Sneak attack (Great on Natural weapons), and Slayer talents. You would also get a nice Pet or Domain power and 9th level spells. Deathroll is a great feat for a Lizardfolk looking to be a wildshaper with a grab attack like a crocodile.
Hunter also would make a great class for a Lizardfolk who wants skills and be a guide of sorts.
Out of the 3 builds you presented I personally like the Ranger Melee class. You could go 2 handed weapon or Natural attacks over the TWF builds if you wish. Or you can just use the ranger feats to by pass all the Dex requirements. I would skip GTWF as it is a trap feat. Grab TWF, ITWF, and Two weapon Rend instead.
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If you're going natural attacks I'd consider sticking with the ranger for your roleplay/skills reasons. If you really want to stick with 2hand fighting then I'd go Barbarian and just make sure you keep enough Int to get the skills you want up to par. (sounds like even 2 skills/level gets you max Survival and 1 to spread around.)
One interesting combo is to use Multiattack + TWF + Improved Unarmed Strike, and wield a combo of sword, unarmed and natural attack. The sword and unarmed gain iteratives, while all natural attacks except for one claw still work; unarmed and natural attacks all benefit from the same enhancement. For any attack that isn't part of a full-attack, you gain the benefit of two-handing the sword.
Yeah, the natural attack build and two-handed build both are appealing, so both Ranger and Barb are definitely on the table.
For natural weapons on my ranger, as a level 10 build setup:
Worships Gorum. Gets the Strength and Destruction blessings.
1. Power Attack
2. Rending Claws (ranger bonus)
3. Multiattack (you have 2 claws and a bite, so this should work)
5. Dangerous Tail (gain tail swipe, trip with it)
6. Eldritch Claws (ranger bonus)
7. Improved Unarmed Strike
9. Boar Style
10. Improved Vital Strike (ranger bonus)
The idea is this:
You can use natural attacks as secondary attacks as part of a full attack, yes? And Unarmed Strikes can be used with any part of your body. Ergo, I could use an Amulet of Mighty Fists, get my full iterative with my unarmed strike (2 attacks at 6, 3 at 11), and make all my natural attacks with a -2 penalty, right?
And then if I hit twice with my claws, I rend. And if I hit twice with my unarmed strikes, I rend. Right?
EDIT: And with Spiked Armor I could make yet another attack at a -5 penalty, too?
EDIT 2: As far as Action Economy goes, the idea would be to use Improved Vital Strike when charging, to do full attacks when possible, and to activate the Strength blessing as a swift action mid-fight. Preferably I'd be able to activate the Destruction blessing before the fight (like, RIGHT before), but at level 13 I can spend a feat on Quicken Blessing (Destruction) to get +6 to all my damage rolls as a swift action.
EDIT 3: I could take the Dragon Style feats or another style in lieu of Boar Style as well. Any thoughts there? (Pummeling Style with Improved Trip to get Pummeling Charge eventually?)
Oh, and this is 25 point buy, so my stats look like this:
19, 12, 16, 12, 14, 8.
Overall, I'd use Two-Weapon Style. Rending Claws (1d6...) and Vital Strike (at least here) are pretty meh; Eldritch Claws eventually becomes pointless. Free TWF with your unarmed strikes would be a lot better.
Dipping into Barbarian with some Extra Rage or Medium with Champion would add a lot of punch to a tons-of-hits build. Barbarian has the bonus of being able to use a Furious Amulet of Mighty Fists.
The reason I suggest a sword in place of a claw is that losing one claw out of a 5+ attacks full attack isn't such a big deal, but two-handing for charge or AoO is a major bonus. Plus, you can use Dragon Style to buff your offhand unarmed strike to 1.5xSTR if it's your first unarmed strike of the round.
so here's now Natural attack and not natural attacks work.
If you just do natural attacks your claws and bite are all at full bab and full str to damage.
If you use something that isn't a natural attack, like an IUS or armor spikes it goes like this. IUS/armor spikes using BAB for how many attacks and full str to damage, claws and bite now at -5 for 1/2 str to damage.
So yes, you can do IUS/IUS-5 and then do Claw claw bite at -2 and half str if you have multi-attack.
Armor spikes are just like any other weapon, they just maybe don't use physical hands. So if you wonder, "can I do this with armor spikes or how does this work with armor spikes" just sub in dagger. So if you add in armor spikes with your IUS you'll be using TWF and taking big penalties since you don't have the feat.
pummeling style only works with IUS, and for dragon style to work with claws you need feral combat training and it wouldn't work with your bite.
Overall, I'd use Two-Weapon Style. Rending Claws (1d6...) and Vital Strike (at least here) are pretty meh
But if you use Rending Claws, don't you apply your STR to damage yet again and apply the Destruction Blessing's damage again as well? Meaning it's 1d6+STR+1/2 level+mighty fists enhancement bonus damage?
And wouldn't Improved Vital Strike be useful for those charges we're discussing?
so here's now Natural attack and not natural attacks work.
If you just do natural attacks your claws and bite are all at full bab and full str to damage.
If you use something that isn't a natural attack, like an IUS or armor spikes it goes like this. IUS/armor spikes using BAB for how many attacks and full str to damage, claws and bite now at -5 for 1/2 str to damage.
So yes, you can do IUS/IUS-5 and then do Claw claw bite at -2 and half str if you have multi-attack.
Armor spikes are just like any other weapon, they just maybe don't use physical hands. So if you wonder, "can I do this with armor spikes or how does this work with armor spikes" just sub in dagger. So if you add in armor spikes with your IUS you'll be using TWF and taking big penalties since you don't have the feat.
Okay, thanks. That explains a lot.
So, don't use Armor Spikes for this, then. Just do Unarmed Strike and my natural weapon attacks.
pummeling style only works with IUS, and for dragon style to work with claws you need feral combat training and it wouldn't work with your bite.
Good to know as well.
I think I found a good option: the Snake Style feats. It adds a lot of potential defense (incoming disintegrate? NOPE!) that can be buffed via magic items and Skill Focus (Sense Motive). Snake's Fang would be great, too, for being able to make attacks of opportunity just for an enemy missing me. Sound like a good choice?
Or would you just go Boar Style and then Weapon Focus and stuff instead?
Overall, I'd use Two-Weapon Style. Rending Claws (1d6...) and Vital Strike (at least here) are pretty mehBut if you use Rending Claws, don't you apply your STR to damage yet again and apply the Destruction Blessing's damage again as well? Meaning it's 1d6+STR+1/2 level+mighty fists enhancement bonus damage?
Paizo Rending Claws Ranger bonus feat. Very crappy. You're looking at the 3rd party one that isn't a Ranger bonus feat, which is much better - but it wouldn't trigger Destruction again; it adds it's bonus to the triggering claw attack.
Improved Vital would be OK... but at level 10. It's still only a couple extra medium dice. Two-handing is bonus STR and bonus Power Attack, plus on a better weapon crits-wise.
Question regarding something that was stated earlier: How does the Mooncursed Barbarian gain pounce at level 5? I didnt think it would come online until level 11?
Let's try this again, then...
1. Power Attack
2. Two-Weapon Fighting (ranger bonus)
3. Multiattack (you have 2 claws and a bite, so this should work)
5. Dangerous Tail (gain tail swipe, trip with it)
6. Improved TWF (ranger bonus)
7. Improved Unarmed Strike
9. Boar Style OR Snake Style
10. Two-Weapon Rend (ranger bonus)
11. (Barb level) Extra Rage
12. (Barb level) Rage Power: Fiend Totem, Lesser
13. Double Slice
Weapons used: Unarmed Strike, Claw x2, Bite, Tail Slap (free trip), Armor Spikes. Weapons that need enchanting are the armor spikes and the amulet of mighty fists. Can dip Barbarian after 10 to get rage-related oomph.
This seems like a perfectly valid setup to me. Using armor spikes = no sacrificing your claw attack. Thus, we're looking at, at level 13...
3 unarmed strikes (x1 STR), 2 armor spikes (x1 STR), 2 claws (x.5 STR), a bite (x.5 STR), a gore (x.5 STR) and a tail slap (x.5 STR).
That's 10 attacks. The attack bonus needs to be boosted as high as possible by some means, but I think this has potential. Thoughts?
EDIT: Also forgot to mention the Two-Weapon Rend, which would be nice. Also, I think Snake Style's defensive bonus is just too good to pass up. Boar Style is great, but I'll need survivability, too.
Question regarding something that was stated earlier: How does the Mooncursed Barbarian gain pounce at level 5? I didnt think it would come online until level 11?
Whoops. Yeah, I meant level 11. Sorry about that.
Yeah, I think that Ranger build with whatever modifications are suggested is what I'll use. 10 attacks = +60 damage from my Destruction Blessing if they all hit. And instead of Double Slice at 13, I'll take Quicken Blessing to make that work.
I'll just throw this out there, since the general concept is so much fun...
Draconic Witch-Warrior
Unarmed Fighter 1/ Ley-Line Guardian Witch 4/ Dragon Disciple 4/ Eldritch Knight 2
Lizardfolk: 16/18STR, 15DEX, 14/16CON, 14INT, 10WIS, 8CHA
Traits: Magical Knack, Fate's Favored
1UF. (+Improved Unarmed Strike) / +Dragon Style / Two-Weapon Fighting
2LW. *Strength Patron*
3LW. Multiattack / *Hex: Cauldron*
4LW.
5LW. Arcane Strike / *Hex: Feral Speech*
6DD. *Draconic +1 natural AC*
7DD. *+2STR* / +Power Attack / Arcane Armor Training
8DD. *Draconic +1 natural AC*
9DD. *+2STR* / *Draconic +1 natural AC* / Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10EK. +Shield Focus
11EK. Unhindering Shield
Quick Buffing: Divine Favor, Arcane Strike
Long-term Buffing: Heroism, False Life, (Extended - Metamagic Rod) Ironskin
Weapons - Amulet of Mighty Fists, (Sword/Spikes?).
Armor - Mithral Kikko, Darkwood Buckler, Draconic AC bonus.
Other - Snakeskin Tunic, Ioun Stone or some other option for +2DEX.
The spells are comparable to a 6-level caster, and are used almost entirely for utility and buffing. Ill Omen is a no-save offensive option. Dimensional Dervish is an option at 11+ with retraining.
Damage is buffed by +4STR from Dragon Disciple plus the bonuses from Divine Favor and Arcane Strike. Accuracy is buffed by Divine Favor and Heroism. Put all together, huge buffs to attack and damage x tons of attacks. Multiple high-saves classes cover saves well, plus add Heroism.
The nice thing about a 2 hander is that it's actually pretty hard to screw it up.
I do have two things for you to consider. First, have you looked at the two handed fighter archetype? It has a lot of very nice things for a two handed weapon build, enough that losing armor training is actually worth it. Second have you looked at Advanced Weapon Training? The nice thing about the two handed archetype is that you still have weapon training, so you still qualify for AWT. And one of the AWT options is called Versatile training and lets you use your BAB as the skill points for two skills, makes them class skills, AND lets you retrain any points you had in those skills.
Oh, and make sure to bring a bow, regardless of what build you make. You'll need it.
The nice thing about a 2 hander is that it's actually pretty hard to screw it up.
Exactly why I was going to do that originally. It's so simple and straightforward and powerful.
I've settled on a natural attack focused build for now though.
I do have two things for you to consider. First, have you looked at the two handed fighter archetype? It has a lot of very nice things for a two handed weapon build, enough that losing armor training is actually worth it. Second have you looked at Advanced Weapon Training? The nice thing about the two handed archetype is that you still have weapon training, so you still qualify for AWT. And one of the AWT options is called Versatile training and lets you use your BAB as the skill points for two skills, makes them class skills, AND lets you retrain any points you had in those skills.
Yeah, I know how Advanced Weapon Training and Versatile Weapon Training work. It just comes online so late that I can't justify doing that when my character is starting at level 1 and is meant to be a guide from the get-go.
I managed to work out a solid enough build with this guy I'm posting as. I settled on using TWF eventually like Badbird suggested before, using my longsword in place of a natural attack. This fits the flavor of being a Gorum worshiper (metal weaponry and all that) better than using JUST natural attacks.
(For now, at the low levels, I'll charge in with my longsword two-handed before dropping it on turn 2 and wailing on things with my natural attacks.)
I think I'll still used Imp. Unarmed Strike and a style feat (not sure which), and at level 13 I'll take the Quicken Blessing (Destruction) as planned. In the end, this should be a perfectly workable build with some decent Ranger spells at its disposal. I can always grab Heroism from a buddy or a potion, and I'm thinking of eventually getting an ioun stone to cast Divine Favor on myself a few times per day, expensive as that may be. I can shove it into a Wayfinder and stash that in my pocket for sundering safety.
Oh, and make sure to bring a bow, regardless of what build you make. You'll need it.
Definitely. At this part in the game I'm bringing javelins (they're cheap and fit a lizardfolk flavor-wise), but later I'll get a Composite Longbow that matches my strength.
Also, since my WIS is 13, I'll eventually get a +2 WIS item and use that to cast my 4th level spells.
With a longsword, I'll have 9 attacks at level 13, with AB mods of Full-2, Full-2, Full-4, Full-4, Full-4, Full-4, 2nd-7, 2nd-7, 3rd-12. The Longsword gets 3 attacks, unarmed strike gets 2, claw/gore/bite/tail slap 1 each. So, 6 attacks get determined by the Amulet of Mighty Fists, and 3 get determined by my Longsword. I feel this will be an expensive build (essentially as expensive as TWF), but it should work.
Okay, I'm looking at a potential Bloodrager build right now. It's different, but interesting. I'm not sure it's as powerful as this one, but...
Crossblooded (ow) Steelblood Primalist Bloodrager, Destiny and Draconic. Crossblooded because the claws from Draconic are useless to me.
Stats are 18/10/16/10/10/16. Unchained Barbarian rage rules are being used.
1. Iron Will (Start with Power Attack, Retrain to Iron Will at 6), Destined Strike, Indomitable Stance
2. Armored Swiftness
3. Multiattack, Blood Sanctuary
4. Beast Totem (L), Elemental Stance
5. Dangerous Tail, Armor Training
6. Power Attack
7. Improved Unarmed Strike, Blood Deflection, BL Spell (Shield)
8. Beast Totem, Shove Aside
9. Leadership, Boar Style
10. BL Spell (Blur)
11. Extra Rage Power (Beast Totem (Greater)), Greater Bloodrage
12. Improved Initiative, Dragon Wings
13. Arcane Strike, BL Spell (Protection From Energy)
14. Indomitable Will
15. Toughness, Blooded Arcane Strike
16. Unstoppable (Crit threats auto-confirm), BL Spell (Freedom of Movement)
Assume this character is wearing a Helm of the Mammoth Lord. Assume that the character's Amulet of Mighty Fists has the Keen enchantment. Our unarmed strikes should count as Keen with Boar Style up.
This character solely uses unarmed strikes and natural attacks - no TWF. Eventually this means 2 claws, 1 bite, 1 tail slap, 1 gore, and 3 unarmed strikes (4 at level 17). That's 6 attacks, and we have a chance to rend with Boar Style. Each attack critically threatens on a 19-20, and each attack deals extra damage on a crit (fire damage, specifically) as if they had flaming burst. The Claws are 1d8 with a x3 crit at level 11. Also, pounce.
By level 16 we have +3 damage from Arcane Strike and never need to activate it. We get +3 more attack/damage when raging. Our fire damage bonus on our attacks is +1d10 per attack, each of which deals either 2d10 or 3d10 extra damage on a crit (crits which we auto-confirm).
Utility-wise we have permanent flight thanks to having dragon wings. We can cast Freedom of Movement, Blur, and Shield (all nice spells) from our bloodline spell selection. We'll definitely memorize Heroism (it's so good), so there's that, and we can cast Mindshock to make all those natural attacks even better (1d4 nonlethal damage each). We'll probably give an enemy the Confused condition for one round thanks to this.
Does this seem like a worthwhile build? Or is the Ranger build still better?
I love the flavor for both, but the ability to add a flat 1/2 my level to each attack on the Ranger and to TWF with natural attacks tacked on seems really, really good.
EDIT: The good thing about both builds is they each have varying levels of "FOR GORUM!" built into them. The other one will utilize a longsword in its attack chain - pretty Gorum. This one can have heavy armor and make it spiked for coolness' sake - also pretty Gorum.
The heightened strength from Bloodrager doesn't play out so well with secondary natural attacks, unfortunately. Not that it's bad or anything, but Unchained Barbarian's flat damage bonuses from Rage and stance is probably a much better bet.
You could always toss a level of Urban Bloodrager or Savage Technologist Barbarian or such onto your Ranger build, if you can spare a feat or two and maybe a trait for extra Rage rounds. Berserker of the Society, one Extra Rage, and one level of a Rage class is 15 rounds/day, and grabs basically cost-free Furious enhancement and ability boost. Urban Bloodrager can be crossed with Blood Conduit for free Improved Unarmed Strike too, which right there pays for taking an Extra Rage.
All the rage classes in this campaign are getting the Unchained Barbarian's +damage and AB to all attacks, so the Bloodrager's bloodrage works just like that.
I'm going to use the Ranger build I previously posted I decided, though I do want to know how a full Bloodrager build could be worked out with this idea in mind still.
I would be all over Primalist Bloodrager with the one-level Lame Oracle dip for rage cycling... because then you can use the Elemental Rage powers every single round to toss 2d6 your-choice-of-type elemental damage onto every melee strike you make. It's not just powerful... it's seriously cool flavor.
I would be all over Primalist Bloodrager with the one-level Lame Oracle dip for rage cycling... because then you can use the Elemental Rage powers every single round to toss 2d6 your-choice-of-type elemental damage onto every melee strike you make. It's not just powerful... it's seriously cool flavor.
That does sound pretty darned awesome. I'll have to keep that one in mind for future Bloodrager builds.
Frankly, half-orc with racial heritage (lizardfolk) is a thing that would probably fly at most tables, and that character could have the tail slap, claws from Bloodrager (thanks beast totem), and get a bite via trait or racial trait. Also, Fate's Favored + Sacred Tattoo + Divine Favor from Oracle for +2 attack/damage.