New Paizo policy


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Lone Wolf Development has just announced what would appear to be a new Paizo policy.

http://www.wolflair.com/blog/2017/02/06/realm-works-content-market/

Specifically that when a partner publishes a Paizo product in some new format the only way to purchase the new format product will be to buy, or to already own through Paizo, the PDF of the same product.

I have some thoughts on this.

1) Are you guys going to take steps to make buying physical copies of your books worthwhile? Specifically when bought through a FLGS? Have you considered joining http://www.bits-and-mortar.com/ or doing something similar?

2) Some of us have a substantial amount of your product dating back to a time when there were no PDF's or before portable devices became common. I bought Rise of the Runelords not long after it first came out. I then bought the anniversary hardcover from my FLGS because I wanted the hardcover and the update to PF rules was appealing. I very much want the Realm Works version to make the next time I run it even better but the prospect of buying the PDF(s) and then the RW package is more than a bit daunting.

I know you are skeptical of new mediums and have to protect your income but this policy strikes me as bad for retailers and bad for your oldest customers.


Dot


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Bad for retailers is debatable (see also: every other thread here about Paizo's PDF practices and how that impacts FLGS). Bad for customers is blatantly false though; this is set up so that it benefits longtime customers. With a standard pricing model, you would be paying paizo twice for the content of the RW package (once for the book/PDF so you have text to refer to, and again for paizo's cut of the RW package). The packages will have been significantly more expensive as well (more in the range of the 3PP packages mentioned).

By tying it to your existing purchase, you need only pay paizo for the content once via buying the PDF. Paizo cannot track accurately on their site whether or not you own a physical copy, due to multiple sources selling physical copies and the fact that you can subsequently resell them or give them away. So, the choice is to give those who already got the PDF a break, or to double-dip on everyone. They chose the former, which to me is a very pro-customer move; and one that may afford them less revenue than the latter as time goes on.

Edit: another point I thought of. While your particular scenario is getting the short end of the stick since you need to also purchase the PDF (subs probably have it best here as they get free PDFs with each sub copy), you still stand to benefit from this policy. By purchasing the PDF once, it is good for every partner Paizo has, so while you are effectively being double dipped for the RW package, should Paizo announce something like VTT integration where you get maps/tokens from modules you've purchased already pre-setup on that VTT (as an example), you aren't getting triple-dipped to get that particular content.


It's no good news for those who like me don't use pdf and buy physical book in local game store. In part to help a small buisiness in a small town and in part because I'm not in the US and it's cheaper this way with the shipping/custom tax I must pay when ordering from Paizo. I'm not including the exchange rate here since it hit me either way.

I had plan to use Realms Work when the content market open... Now I look at it I'm not so sure.

An example:

Curse of the Crimson Throne, 60$ no problem!(By the way I buy every single Paizo book, miniatures etc)

Hero Lab files 25$, no problem, it add to what I have.

Realms Work files, don't know yet say 50$? Fine again it's a plus from what I get.

The Pdf of COTCT(wich I have no use) : 42$ Annnnnd it's here that it itch

A compagny that use a licence like Lone Wolf must pay Something to Paizo, that's normal. And the final price of their products will include that. Now the model force to buy again a product I buy last year and its true for every past adventure path I own that RW decide to do that I'd like to own in RW.

For futur Paizo products, a redeemable code for PDf, may be a solution for case like that, but for past 110+ AP volumes it's lost


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
DanyRay wrote:

It's no good news for those who like me don't use pdf and buy physical book in local game store. In part to help a small buisiness in a small town and in part because I'm not in the US and it's cheaper this way with the shipping/custom tax I must pay when ordering from Paizo. I'm not including the exchange rate here since it hit me either way.

I had plan to use Realms Work when the content market open... Now I look at it I'm not so sure.

An example:

Curse of the Crimson Throne, 60$ no problem!(By the way I buy every single Paizo book, miniatures etc)

Hero Lab files 25$, no problem, it add to what I have.

Realms Work files, don't know yet say 50$? Fine again it's a plus from what I get.

The Pdf of COTCT(wich I have no use) : 42$ Annnnnd it's here that it itch

A compagny that use a licence like Lone Wolf must pay Something to Paizo, that's normal. And the final price of their products will include that. Now the model force to buy again a product I buy last year and its true for every past adventure path I own that RW decide to do that I'd like to own in RW.

For futur Paizo products, a redeemable code for PDf, may be a solution for case like that, but for past 110+ AP volumes it's lost

RW pricing was announced for select modules. While CotCT isn't on there, Emerald Spire was $18. If this deal wasn't that way, it is very likely it would be closer to $50-70 to account for paizo's cut. Let's say $43 since that makes the math nicer later.

So, without this, you'd pay $43 for the package. Later some VTT integration comes around for Emerald Spire and that runs you another $40. Paizo gets a large cut of each of those sales.

With this, you pay $25 for the PDF and $18 for the RW package (total of $43). If you want the VTT thing, let's say you can get that for $15. This brings your grand total to $58, versus $88 above. In other words, your one purchase of the PDF makes getting multiple supplementary things for it cheaper, because you don't have to re-buy "access" to the content each time.

The value is harder to see if you get primarily physical books (not via a subscription), but it still exists. If you subscribe to the product lines on paizo.com, you get the PDFs for free alongside the physical books, so the value is much more visible in that case.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I also have had a similar problem. I went and bought Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne's anniversary edition through a brick and morder store.

After which I subscribed to the Adventure Path subscription (among others). Needing to go back and get the PDFs is really a bummer, if I plan on running them via Realm Works (or other similar product).

Is there any way, with this new rule, we would be given an opportunity to get cheap PDFs for purchases made outside the subscription? Something like cutting out proof of owning the physical book? Like how you used to cut out "Proof of purchase" for things. Either getting a Free PDF or one at an extreme discount. This would not need to last forever, since people can make decisions for subscriptions going forward.

I know there is a risk of people going into stores and cutting out whatever proof, but with the type of gaming community I think the risk is actually pretty low.


I understant that, but if a VVT package is released it's a plus value, if i want that (I don't) I'll pay the price. The PDF add nothing for me.

In a few weak I'll buy the final part of Strange AEons, how can I justify burning 108$ again for Something that I already own and will not use?

From my point of view, I have two choices:

Letting the owner of my flgs down and saying I'll order directly from Paizo in the futur. I can't do that I know the guy quite well and It's kind of against my principles. This option only adress futur product case.

Or just forget RW, and I may have to actualy take that option.

I realy see the value for subscriver and I wish I was one but the reality is I choose, a few years back, another valid way to get Paizo products and now I get the message that I choose wrong and have to do it again.

And just to be clear, I never had anything again paying what it cost for conex products be it HeroLab, pawns or anithing that circle around a path or module. The PDF is another story, since it's the same product in a different container.

It would be just to add what Paizo want from a licencing point of view to the actual cost of the product and not discriminate how we get the books.


I own thousands of dollars of physical Pathfinder products. So I either pay for the same content twice or abandon my collection of physical copies. What a crappy position to put your customers in. I'd totally sign up for for the subscriptions but the prices aren't even remotely competitive with their resellers and they charge shipping, that's so 1999. #firstworld problems

Shadow Lodge

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Jessex wrote:
2) Some of us have a substantial amount of your product dating back to a time when there were no PDF's...

When was this? I don't think their Dungeon/Dragon material will be on Realms Works.


I only get pdfs, so this doesn't effect me. I can see why people that buy only dead trees, but want to use Realm Works, would be irritated though.


The fine print is it doesn't affect hero lab so... i didn't know they made anything else?


- It's not feasible to verify physical purchases. (Proof of purchase requires hiring checkers, spending money to get paid less.)
- It is feasible to verify digital purchases.
From those, the two possibilities are re-charging everybody for the content, or only re-charging people whose purchases can't be verified. Would re-charging everyone be better?

(From my subscriber status, though, it's obvious I'm coming at this from the other side. Funnily enough, though, I only own physical copies of any of the stuff being offered.)

Shadow Lodge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
The fine print is it doesn't affect hero lab so... i didn't know they made anything else?

Realms Works is a campaign management tool similar to Obsidian Portal but client-based rather than web-based. Each player and GM have to pay a subscription to the cloud service so that they can access the shared campaign.

This has absolutely no effect on me, but my opinion of the policy is ambivalent at the moment.

Liberty's Edge

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Cthulhusquatch wrote:
I only get pdfs, so this doesn't effect me. I can see why people that buy only dead trees, but want to use Realm Works, would be irritated though.

This is totally just an aside, but I really dislike the term 'dead tree' when referring to print. It just has such an ... I don't know, negative, derogatory, or at least snarky, self-righteous connotation. (I'm not implying that you personally feel that way, I'm just saying in general).

We don't say 'lifeless pixel version' or some-such when referring to PDFs, for example.

I guess I'm just making a request / plea: can we get a moratorium on 'dead tree' and just use the actual term 'print books' or the like?

Sorry for the little rant! Back to the topic at hand!


TOZ wrote:
Realms Works is a campaign management tool similar to Obsidian Portal but client-based rather than web-based. Each player and GM have to pay a subscription to the cloud service so that they can access the shared campaign.

Correction: Players don't need a subscription. They need either a Player or GM license for the application, which is a one-time purchase. The GM does need a subscription to share with his or her players.

ObTopic: I have a lot of Paizo content in PDF, so I'm fine with it.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The trees are dead. The pixels are the future.


Galymyr wrote:
I own thousands of dollars of physical Pathfinder products. So I either pay for the same content twice or abandon my collection of physical copies. What a crappy position to put your customers in. I'd totally sign up for for the subscriptions but the prices aren't even remotely competitive with their resellers and they charge shipping, that's so 1999. #firstworld problems

I'm in exactly the same position. I have just about every rule book and bestiary they have published, plus a couple of the adventure paths. The books are wonderful and lovely and I do not really want to go away from them.

I also had the same problem with subscription and buying books direct from Paizo as I live in NZ, and shipping costs became prohibitive.

I am deeply frustrated as I have diligently supported both Paizo and Lone Wolf for several years now (I know for some it is closer to a decade!), and wish to continue to do so, but unless there is a change in this policy I cannot see myself continuing to do so as I want to continue to buy hardcovers, but I am not willing to pay for something 3 times. I would happily buy hard copy then pay for content in Realm Works, but this is not a viable option as it stands distressingly.

Surely Paizo could find a way to allow this? I have electronic receipts for all my hard copy books, but for those who use FLGS perhaps a channel can be set up so that the owners (who i would guess Paizo have given a retailer ID/account) can confirm purchases for their customers. Messy, sure, but as a one off exercise and a change in the whole voucher code in book policy it would make a lot of folk happy.

PS: I would happily pay for PDFs if they were heavily discounted (ie 75% off) for those who can show proof of purchase, i would not expect Paizo just to jive them away!


One possible compromise is buying rule books in physical form, and occasionally holding off on the physical version of a campaign or scenario to get the PDF and pre-prepared digital version.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Stuart Waring wrote:


PS: I would happily pay for PDFs if they were heavily discounted (ie 75% off) for those who can show proof of purchase, i would not expect Paizo just to jive them away!

This. I understand we are not going to get something for free, but there has to be a bone thrown to the people who have bought via FLGS.

I know there are sites like http://www.bits-and-mortar.com that help you get the pdf if you buy it from a physical store. But I don't think this adds it to your Paizo account to show proof of actual ownership of the pdf.

I understand why, I just wish there was some way to deal with this. I am really going to have to wait and see what is available via Realm Works. Then I will have to see what PDFs to buy. I am just going to assume its not everything at once. All things being said, this is not an expensive hobby, so I don't mind throwing money to people who make it possible.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The only question I have: does this apply to Hero Lab, or is this Realm Works only?

-Skeld


I don't really get what's going on here, could someone simplify it for me.

"Now, explain it to me as you would a five year old" - Michael Scott, The Office.

Shadow Lodge

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CY, you must have the PDF purchased from Paizo to buy Realms Work content for that product.

Skeld wrote:

The only question I have: does this apply to Hero Lab, or is this Realm Works only?

-Skeld

HL is specifically exempted.


Skeld wrote:
The only question I have: does this apply to Hero Lab, or is this Realm Works only?

In their blog post (address from the initial post in this thread), LWD said it doesn't apply to Hero Lab.

captain yesterday wrote:
I don't really get what's going on here, could someone simplify it for me.

According to LWD, Paizo's new digital content policy means that when you buy Paizo content for Realm Works you will also need to have the PDF version in a linked Paizo account. If you don't already own that content you will need to purchase it from Paizo at the current price for you. For those who only have physical books that means buying the content two more times (once for the PDF, once for Realm Works).


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Stuart Waring wrote:
Galymyr wrote:
I own thousands of dollars of physical Pathfinder products. So I either pay for the same content twice or abandon my collection of physical copies. What a crappy position to put your customers in. I'd totally sign up for for the subscriptions but the prices aren't even remotely competitive with their resellers and they charge shipping, that's so 1999. #firstworld problems

I'm in exactly the same position. I have just about every rule book and bestiary they have published, plus a couple of the adventure paths. The books are wonderful and lovely and I do not really want to go away from them.

I also had the same problem with subscription and buying books direct from Paizo as I live in NZ, and shipping costs became prohibitive.

I am deeply frustrated as I have diligently supported both Paizo and Lone Wolf for several years now (I know for some it is closer to a decade!), and wish to continue to do so, but unless there is a change in this policy I cannot see myself continuing to do so as I want to continue to buy hardcovers, but I am not willing to pay for something 3 times. I would happily buy hard copy then pay for content in Realm Works, but this is not a viable option as it stands distressingly.

Surely Paizo could find a way to allow this? I have electronic receipts for all my hard copy books, but for those who use FLGS perhaps a channel can be set up so that the owners (who i would guess Paizo have given a retailer ID/account) can confirm purchases for their customers. Messy, sure, but as a one off exercise and a change in the whole voucher code in book policy it would make a lot of folk happy.

PS: I would happily pay for PDFs if they were heavily discounted (ie 75% off) for those who can show proof of purchase, i would not expect Paizo just to jive them away!

I understand your frustrations, but keep in mind that this policy is a wash for you -- in your particular case (with Hero Lab thrown in, since it's excluded from this policy), you are paying for the content 3 times either way. With this policy, it's more transparent in that you pay for the PDF separate from the Realm Works thing. If this policy didn't exist, the price of the PDF would have been included in Realm Work's price (possibly not at the full price of the PDF, but I'd imagine it'd be close). It's not a case of "I can buy a physical book for $25 and the Realm Works package for $8, saving $20 that I don't need to spend on a PDF if this policy weren't in place." It'd be "I can buy a physical book for $25 and the Realm Works package for another $20." -- your savings are a lot lower.

Later on, lets say there's another offering that you want tied to that book. With this policy, you can get that for, say, another $8. Without this policy, you'd be buying the book's content for a fourth time for another $20+.

tl;dr if you place absolutely no value on the PDF whatsoever and view it simply as a prerequisite to access other content, and you purchase hard copies outside of a paizo subscription (so no free PDF), you're coming out roughly the same. Without the policy, you would need to repurchase access to the content every time you wanted to get something supplementary to that product from one of paizo's partners. If you only care about one supplementary thing (say Realm Works), it is equivalent or maybe a slight loss for you, depending on what pricing would have been. If you care about more than one supplementary thing, you come out ahead. If you actually use the PDF (searching features are nice, even if you mainly refer to the print version when doing most of your prep/sessino running), then you can consider that small loss for the first supplementary thing as the value attributed to having access to the full book as a PDF.

Since I think I've fully beaten this deceased-looking horse by now, and so far nobody who's objecting to this policy has attempted to engage in criticism or argument of my points, I think I'm going to be done with this thread.

Shadow Lodge

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Marc Radle wrote:
Cthulhusquatch wrote:
I only get pdfs, so this doesn't effect me. I can see why people that buy only dead trees, but want to use Realm Works, would be irritated though.
This is totally just an aside, but I really dislike the term 'dead tree' when referring to print. It just has such an ... I don't know, negative, derogatory, or at least snarky, self-righteous connotation. (I'm not implying that you personally feel that way, I'm just saying in general).

I have always used it in a humorous, literal sense of the term. (Referring to my bag of holding as 'a lot of dead tree'.) Knowing you object to it, I will attempt to avoid its usage.

It is a totally metal description of a library however. "I crush and bind their corpses for display on my shelf."

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I can certainly understand how the AP packages within RW might burn Paizo's cornbread a little. HL is basically just a rule aggregator with some licensed Paizo IP references. The AP data sets are IP with some embedded rule information.

Parody wrote:
Skeld wrote:
The only question I have: does this apply to Hero Lab, or is this Realm Works only?
In their blog post (address from the initial post in this thread), LWD said it doesn't apply to Hero Lab.

Thanks. I can't read anything on their website from work. The Army is blocking access. ;)

-Skeld


I talk about dead tree vs digital when it comes to my school textbooks and novels as well. Pixels really are lifeless... but I get them for all of my reading needs... because I can't carry around lots of dead trees.... so I rent digital textbooks. :p Hel, I used it this morning when I asked a professor whether or not she wanted me to bring in a paper printed on a dead tree, or if I could send it digitally.

I actually like the way dead tree sounds. If our paper was made from hemp.. I'd actually probably say hemp. It is just a personal preference of my own.

No offense btw... and none taken on my end.

Marc Radle wrote:
Cthulhusquatch wrote:
I only get pdfs, so this doesn't effect me. I can see why people that buy only dead trees, but want to use Realm Works, would be irritated though.

This is totally just an aside, but I really dislike the term 'dead tree' when referring to print. It just has such an ... I don't know, negative, derogatory, or at least snarky, self-righteous connotation. (I'm not implying that you personally feel that way, I'm just saying in general).

We don't say 'lifeless pixel version' or some-such when referring to PDFs, for example.

I guess I'm just making a request / plea: can we get a moratorium on 'dead tree' and just use the actual term 'print books' or the like?

Sorry for the little rant! Back to the topic at hand!


skizzerz wrote:
Stuart Waring wrote:
Galymyr wrote:
I own thousands of dollars of physical Pathfinder products. So I either pay for the same content twice or abandon my collection of physical copies. What a crappy position to put your customers in. I'd totally sign up for for the subscriptions but the prices aren't even remotely competitive with their resellers and they charge shipping, that's so 1999. #firstworld problems

I'm in exactly the same position. I have just about every rule book and bestiary they have published, plus a couple of the adventure paths. The books are wonderful and lovely and I do not really want to go away from them.

I also had the same problem with subscription and buying books direct from Paizo as I live in NZ, and shipping costs became prohibitive.

I am deeply frustrated as I have diligently supported both Paizo and Lone Wolf for several years now (I know for some it is closer to a decade!), and wish to continue to do so, but unless there is a change in this policy I cannot see myself continuing to do so as I want to continue to buy hardcovers, but I am not willing to pay for something 3 times. I would happily buy hard copy then pay for content in Realm Works, but this is not a viable option as it stands distressingly.

Surely Paizo could find a way to allow this? I have electronic receipts for all my hard copy books, but for those who use FLGS perhaps a channel can be set up so that the owners (who i would guess Paizo have given a retailer ID/account) can confirm purchases for their customers. Messy, sure, but as a one off exercise and a change in the whole voucher code in book policy it would make a lot of folk happy.

PS: I would happily pay for PDFs if they were heavily discounted (ie 75% off) for those who can show proof of purchase, i would not expect Paizo just to jive them away!

I understand your frustrations, but keep in mind that this policy is a wash for you -- in your particular case (with Hero Lab thrown in, since it's excluded from this...

Skizzerz, I understand your argument and see its merits for additional supplementary products (and the transparancy argument is indeed a good one), but the bottom line is that I have spent more than $1000 on hard copy, and to replicate that for RW etc I would need to spend the same again for content I have already paid for. Perhaps my real bugbear is simply that the PDF copies are so very expensive given that I own the physical copies already. Again I would not advocate them being free, but i simply cannot afford to use RW in the way i had planned!


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Stuart Waring wrote:
Skizzerz, I understand your argument and see its merits for additional supplementary products (and the transparancy argument is indeed a good one), but the bottom line is that I have spent more than $1000 on hard copy, and to replicate that for RW etc I would need to spend the same again for content I have already paid for. Perhaps my real bugbear is simply that the PDF copies are so very expensive given that I own the physical copies already. Again I would not advocate them being free, but i simply cannot afford to use RW in the way i had planned!

Thanks for engaging in a thoughtful response! The PDF prices for the core rules line is pretty good ($10 per PDF), but you get less of a deal for every other line. Paizo frequently puts out discount codes you can use, but these generally only give you 10% off, which is a far cry from a 75% reduction compared to the print product price that some are calling for.

Out of curiosity, what do you think a fair price for a PDF would be for someone who already owns a print copy? Additionally, how would you envision such a system to work (in other words, how would you make it so that people who have legitimately purchased print copies can get the PDF at a discounted rate, while people who have not need to buy it at full price)?


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Unless I'm missing something, it wouldn't nearly be the same amount again. None of the rules books enter the picture at all- just APs and smaller adventures. You're paying for the convenience of someone else doing the work of putting the adventure material in your virtual tabletop system for you. When you want to run a particular thing, you only pay for that particular thing, run it for a few months, and then get the next thing. There's no point to replicating your entire physical library. It's not a thousand bucks; it's twenty-eight (taking Dragon's Demand as an example).

Other good options: get adventures you don't already own. If you own all of them, check out the third-party adventures. Razor Coast is four stars on Paizo, and most of the complaints are addressed by the new format.


In order to even buy the Realm Works version of a book, you have to buy the pdf version of the book as well... specifically.. first.... hard copies don't count.

So yes.. you are paying for the work someone else put in. But if you have a hard copy of a book already, you have to duplicate it digitally before you can buy the RW version. So yes.. you missed a bit.

Basically.. if you own Dragon's Demand on hard copy... you still have to get the pdf before you get the RW version.

Not an issue for those of us with all pdf versions... but could probably be annoying to book collectors.

As for the 'get adventures you don't already own'.. well.. that doesn't help someone that wants to have the Realm Works version and run a game using that program of something they already own the hard copy of.

Unfortunately, I can't think of an alternative.

QuidEst wrote:

Unless I'm missing something, it wouldn't nearly be the same amount again. None of the rules books enter the picture at all- just APs and smaller adventures. You're paying for the convenience of someone else doing the work of putting the adventure material in your virtual tabletop system for you. When you want to run a particular thing, you only pay for that particular thing, run it for a few months, and then get the next thing. There's no point to replicating your entire physical library. It's not a thousand bucks; it's twenty-eight (taking Dragon's Demand as an example).

Other good options: get adventures you don't already own. If you own all of them, check out the third-party adventures. Razor Coast is four stars on Paizo, and most of the complaints are addressed by the new format.


Yeah. I'm noting that it's just one thing every few months rather than needing to re-buy all the rule books as well. The size of a collection doesn't really play into it unless you're running dozens of games at a time.


skizzerz wrote:


Thanks for engaging in a thoughtful response! The PDF prices for the core rules line is pretty good ($10 per PDF), but you get less of a deal for every other line. Paizo frequently puts out discount codes you can use, but these generally only give you 10% off, which is a far cry from a 75% reduction compared to the print product price that some are calling for.

Out of curiosity, what do you think a fair price for a PDF would be for someone who already owns a print copy? Additionally, how would you envision such a system to work (in other words, how would you make it so that people who have legitimately purchased print copies can get the PDF at a discounted rate, while people who have not need to buy it at full price)?

You are right - the core rulebooks are not too bad, but I really want to use RealmWorks to run AP's which I have in hard copy - and at $16 a pdf plus the RW copy (x6!!!!) is far too much when i have already bought paper copies.

As for a mechanism - i suggested that anyone with a electronic receipt could forward it to Paizo to get a discount voucher code. Anyone who buys from bricks and mortar could get the owner (i am guessing most supporters of these shops have a relationship with the store staff) to email Paizo on their behalf. I am assuming Paizo keeps track of its distributors for this model though!


True. Though part of the draw to RW is building a world out of the bits and pieces that you buy. That was one of the things that drew many of us to the Kickstarter. In my case, for example, I actually don't play.. I collect.

Also Campaign Setting and Companion books will be a part of it as well... not just adventures.

IMO, there really isn't a way to fix it so that people can use hardcovers as good enough to buy the RW version. But it is obvious why it wouldn't be an ideal situation for them.

QuidEst wrote:
Yeah. I'm noting that it's just one thing every few months rather than needing to re-buy all the rule books as well. The size of a collection doesn't really play into it unless you're running dozens of games at a time.

Sczarni

QuidEst wrote:

Unless I'm missing something, it wouldn't nearly be the same amount again. None of the rules books enter the picture at all- just APs and smaller adventures. You're paying for the convenience of someone else doing the work of putting the adventure material in your virtual tabletop system for you. When you want to run a particular thing, you only pay for that particular thing, run it for a few months, and then get the next thing. There's no point to replicating your entire physical library. It's not a thousand bucks; it's twenty-eight (taking Dragon's Demand as an example).

Other good options: get adventures you don't already own. If you own all of them, check out the third-party adventures. Razor Coast is four stars on Paizo, and most of the complaints are addressed by the new format.

but if you're building a campagain set in Golarion, in The City of Korvosa as it is now, you need The CotCT AP, Shattered star AP, Guide to Korvosa, Varisia Birthplace, of Legends, and Inner Sea World Guide. When you consider 1) this is the target audience for realmworks and 2) this is a audience that wouldn't be using pre-written content, so would be less likely to have subscription to the adventure paths.

Liberty's Edge

Dot. Very interested.


I'm confused could someone explain this to me as if I was a idiot?

Shadow Lodge

To buy the Realms Work data packages you must also own the Paizo PDF the package references.


Ah and its specifically PDF because they can't verify physical copies. OK Now I'm Caught up.


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Gorbacz wrote:
The trees are dead. The pixels are the future.

Should that be...

'The trees are alive...'

I mean if they are all ready dead why not make books...


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Cpt_kirstov wrote:
QuidEst wrote:

Unless I'm missing something, it wouldn't nearly be the same amount again. None of the rules books enter the picture at all- just APs and smaller adventures. You're paying for the convenience of someone else doing the work of putting the adventure material in your virtual tabletop system for you. When you want to run a particular thing, you only pay for that particular thing, run it for a few months, and then get the next thing. There's no point to replicating your entire physical library. It's not a thousand bucks; it's twenty-eight (taking Dragon's Demand as an example).

Other good options: get adventures you don't already own. If you own all of them, check out the third-party adventures. Razor Coast is four stars on Paizo, and most of the complaints are addressed by the new format.

but if you're building a campagain set in Golarion, in The City of Korvosa as it is now, you need The CotCT AP, Shattered star AP, Guide to Korvosa, Varisia Birthplace, of Legends, and Inner Sea World Guide. When you consider 1) this is the target audience for realmworks and 2) this is a audience that wouldn't be using pre-written content, so would be less likely to have subscription to the adventure paths.

Ah, that's where my disconnect is. Thank you for clarifying. The only thing previewed has been adventures, so I assumed both that people would be using those and that only adventures would be available.

Looking at the survey now, I see I was wrong in the second assumption, so the first one doesn't make sense. Oof... now we're on the same page.


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I would really appreciate a response from Paizo on this. Even if it is just to say suck it up, or that they're reviewing the policy.


Am I understanding correctly that everything is staying the same for Herolab and this applies to new electronic products offered by 3PP going forward?

(I'm not very well informed about what products exist nor how they currently work).


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Galymyr wrote:
I would really appreciate a response from Paizo on this. Even if it is just to say suck it up, or that they're reviewing the policy.

Why? No, seriously, why? Help me understand.

You made your purchases in a physical-only format. That entitles you to zero digital content (aside from the PRD). This is not new.

Now, a 3rd-party company is offering Paizo's licensed digital content in a modified manner. That includes art and other assets which are not part of the PRD. Clearly that 3rd-party company will be expected to pay Paizo for the right to redistribute that digital content to its customers. Paizo has chosen an amount for that payment, and it is equal to the base price of Paizo's original unmodified digital content.

Not unreasonable. If the "license" was less than the PDF price, you'd see some customers not buying the PDF and only buying the modified digital content. That's a net loss for Paizo. Selecting the PDF price as the licensing price makes no net change.

So, you pay a licensing fee plus the 3rd-party's price for their work in modifying the digital content. Think of it not unlike buying a car you want in a colour the manufacturer does not offer; a paint shop will charge you the price of the car plus the price of their work. Why should the car dealership sell the car cheaper to the paint shop than to you? People would start buying cars from the paint shop and not paint the car.

Again, you chose to purchase physical-only product. You have never been entitled to digital anything. Here, Paizo is gifting you with a copy of a PDF when you buy a 3rd-party's modified product instead of simply charging them a licensing fee that gets you nothing but rights.

This - to me - sounds like one of the most fair licensing schemes I've heard of. Heck, Paizo made the effort of modifying their online store to link with these 3rd-party companies, to ensure that you get the best price you're entitled to. How awesome is that? On sale? You get the sale price. Discounts? You get the discounted price. Presumably Pathfinder Advantage would apply. I mean, wow. Paizo will effectively reduce their licensing fee by whatever price adjustments you can wrangle with them.

So I'm really not getting the justification for your angst, and I'd like to. Maybe I'm wrong and missing something, but this so far sounds beyond fair.

I mean, I sort of get it. I believe in format-shifting to a degree... if I buy a CD of an album and want to rip it to MP3 to use on a smaller player... I'm not very concerned with what my literal legal entitlement is. I bought digital music, period. But if I attend a concert and hear the music live, I bought a totally different experience, and I'm not entitled to a digital recording, I think. If I buy a book, I don't think I'm automatically entitled to an audio book version, or an e-book unless I make it myself. So hey, those Paizo books I own in paper only, I don't think I deserve in electronic format, and vice-versa. But that's me.


Steve Geddes wrote:

Am I understanding correctly that everything is staying the same for Herolab and this applies to new electronic products offered by 3PP going forward?

(I'm not very well informed about what products exist nor how they currently work).

That's what it sounds like. And that actually makes a lot of sense - to me - too. HeroLab effectively redistributes what's in the PRD, basically. It doesn't include art or other assets. Also, unless I've forgotten something since the one time I tried a demo of HeroLab (or maybe I only read documentation or something), it's not really the sort of thing you can browse in. It doesn't replace books or PDFs. It's just a tool that makes playing the game easier. Virtual tabletop is similar, but also will presumably include art assets, making it a different class of license, I think.


Anguish wrote:
I believe in format-shifting to a degree... if I buy a CD of an album and want to rip it to MP3 to use on a smaller player... I'm not very concerned with what my literal legal entitlement is. I bought digital music, period. But if I attend a concert and hear the music live, I bought a totally different experience, and I'm not entitled to a digital recording, I think. If I buy a book, I don't think I'm automatically entitled to an audio book version, or an e-book unless I make it myself. So hey, those Paizo books I own in paper only, I don't think I deserve in electronic format, and vice-versa. But that's me.

That's a very fair analogy. I guess the difference for me is that with a traditional book I would never have a reason to buy it again in a different format. Nor would I be so heavily invested in a single line of reading books. Also, I am perfectly within my rights to copy every single word of text from my physical copies of those books and into Realm Works. That's the real rub for me. Its not like Paizo is expending any additional effort to produce the .pdf over the print books like they would have to for an audio book. Heck, they give .pdfs away for free to subscribers, which i would totally do if their prices were a little more competitive with their distributors. But when you combine the increased cost of the books and shipping you actually end up paying more than you saved by getting a free .pdf.


Realmworks also isn't entitled to their money, to be fair, which I believe is going to be a common response to this.

Shadow Lodge

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Galymyr wrote:
Also, I am perfectly within my rights to copy every single word of text from my physical copies of those books and into Realm Works. That's the real rub for me.

Yep. You're also perfectly able to do the same with HeroLab.

I'm not paying for the content. I'm paying for the data entry.


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Galymyr wrote:
Its not like Paizo is expending any additional effort to produce the .pdf over the print books like they would have to for an audio book.

It's perhaps tangential to your point, but for what it's worth I believe this isn't true.

The printers require the files in a completely different and specialised format. Converting that to PDF is not a trivial thing, as I understand it.


Sundakan wrote:
Realmworks also isn't entitled to their money, to be fair, which I believe is going to be a common response to this.

LWD (Realmworks) are entitled to their money as they need to cover the cost of data entry and hosting services. This is a new distribution platform which has associated costs for its use.

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