Build Advice, Dex Reach Fighter


Advice


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So a while ago there was a dex reach thread. It was basicly an elf/half elf using a elven branch spear. I was planning on making a backup toon for giantslayer and was looking around at a build like this.... Then the "Bladed rush" feat showed up.

Now i have the chance to do this build as not an elf, and use a glaive instead. And i would like some ideas on how to progress it.

Requirements and must haves....

20 point buy.
lvl 10.
3 lvls of Urogue, at least 5 lvls of fighter (was planning on all fighter after 3 urogue but am open to suggestions)
Races, was thinking either dwarf or human. Assamar or Tiefling and option.
Feats, Shield Brace, Bladed rush, Just out of Reach manditory, dirty trick and other options
Paizo material, no 3.5 or splat content

Point and note, this is a dex build, i dont want to hear "Well just go Str". I plan to have my str around 10-12 and use muleback cords, mithral armor and shield, and such.

Thxs


So pretty sure bladed brush doesn't open up to allow Dex to damage from the Urogue.

Grand Lodge

Magus build kensai/bladebound - use spell strike with reach. Drop u-rogue and dex. to dm.
Its a trap for this kind of build. Enlarge person is awsome if you dont drop str. totally.
Str. 13
Dex 16+race
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 8
Cha 7
This build free resources to buy ability enhancements items instead of magic weapon and armor.


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Chess Pwn wrote:
So pretty sure bladed brush doesn't open up to allow Dex to damage from the Urogue.

If you have Bladed Brush (and Weapon Focus: Glaive) before you take your first level in URogue, this would work, right? Finesse Training works with anything to which you can apply Weapon Finesse, and Bladed Brush makes glaives eligible. You've just got a problem if you gain the "finesse training" class feature at the same level you gain bladed brush, right?

Scarab Sages

I'm not sure if Chess Pwn is correct about Bladed Brush and Unchained Rogue or not. It's possible you could ask your GM and get a different ruling for your game. In general, a glaive cannot be finessed. But for you it can. To me, it's a similar situation to a Swashbuckler/Rogue multiclass. Swashbuckler can finesse a Scizore, for example. Would a Swashbuckler1/Unchained Rogue 3 be able to get Dex to damage with a Scizore? If so, I don't see why glaive wouldn't work. If not, then glaive probably doesn't work either.

Assuming it's true, if you stuck with single-class fighter for the first 5 levels, you could try to work a Trained Grace build (Dex to-hit, Str to damage, plus double Weapon Training Bonus to damage). You've got a lot of feat requirements. So it depends on how soon you want to get something like Just Out of Reach.

You could do something like:

Spoiler:
Human, start with 15 STR 18 DEX

1) Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Glaive), Bladed Brush
2) Power Attack
3) Shield Focus
4) Shield Brace
5) Weapon Specialization
6) Advanced Weapon Training Feat: Trained Grace
7) Dodge
8) Greater Weapon Focus
9) Mobility, Advanced Weapon Training: Warrior Spirit
10) Just Out of Reach

I'm not sure where you'd want to go from there. I'm also not sure if you get the two-handing bonus for STR and Power Attack while using Shield Brace. If not, then Power Attack might not be worth it. If it does work, at 6th level, you'd end up with something like this:

Spoiler:
Attack: +6 BAB + 5 DEX (with +2 Belt) +1 Weapon Focus +1 Weapon Training +2 enhancement - 2 Power Attack = +13/+8

Damage: +4 STR (with +1 STR at 4th) +2 Weapon Specialization +2 Weapon Training +2 Enhancement + 6 Power Attack = +16

At 9th, with Gloves of Dueling:

Attack: +9 BAB + 5 DEX (with +2 Belt) +1 Weapon Focus +1 Greater Weapon Focus +4 Weapon Training +2 enhancement - 3 Power Attack = +19/+14

Damage: +6 STR (with +1 STR at 4th and a +2 item) +2 Weapon Specialization +8 Weapon Training +2 Enhancement + 9 Power Attack = +27

Things I don't like about this include: No room for Combat Reflexes until 11th level. Just Out of Reach requires Dodge and Mobility, and nothing else in the build does. Potential pitfall with Shield Brace and two-handing.

I would forget about Just Out of Reach and instead do something like this:

Spoiler:

1) Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Glaive), Bladed Brush
2) Power Attack
3) Combat Reflexes
4) Weapon Specialization
5) Advanced Weapon Training Feat: Trained Grace
6) Difficult Swings
7) Lunge
8) Greater Weapon Focus
9) Shield Focus, Advanced Weapon Training: Warrior Spirit
10) Shield Brace

So whenever you full attack, all of the spaces adjacent to you become difficult terrain due to Difficult Swings. Nothing can 5-foot step up to you. That doesn't help with creatures with reach, but it's great for anything that doesn't.

Also, I had one of those Unchained Rogue Elven Branched Spear threads back in November. I didn't get a lot of feedback, likely because there are several longer threads, but you can see the builds I was looking at HERE.


I don't have a whole build for you, but how important is it for your first 3 levels to be unchained rogue? Based on my reading of finesse training, you need to have bladed brush on or before you get to UR 3 in order to have it be an allowable choice, and the UR can't do it because weapon focus requires bab +1. If, on the other hand, your first level is fighter and you play a human, you can be fully functional immediately and get dex to damage with a glaive at level 4. Weapon focus as the human feat, bladed brush as the first level feat, and weapon finesse as the fighter bonus feat. Then, when you finally reach fighter level 4 (which should be character level 7), you retrain weapon finesse for any other combat feat per fighter bonus feat rules.

Now, if you are starting at 10 instead of asking for how to evolve it up through to 10, then I would change two things. First, don't bother with that taking finesse as the fighter bonus feat thing. Second, you no longer NEED to play as a human. I mean, if the character is already at 10, you can hand wave away some of the issues with the early levels by saying you didn't go adventuring until level 2, or possibly even later.


The elven branch spear is still superior to the glaive. No advantage in going human as you won't have more feats effectively.
I recommend adding at least two levels of slayer for that pre-req free Power Attack.

The Exchange

bishop083 wrote:

I don't have a whole build for you, but how important is it for your first 3 levels to be unchained rogue? Based on my reading of finesse training, you need to have bladed brush on or before you get to UR 3 in order to have it be an allowable choice, and the UR can't do it because weapon focus requires bab +1. If, on the other hand, your first level is fighter and you play a human, you can be fully functional immediately and get dex to damage with a glaive at level 4. Weapon focus as the human feat, bladed brush as the first level feat, and weapon finesse as the fighter bonus feat. Then, when you finally reach fighter level 4 (which should be character level 7), you retrain weapon finesse for any other combat feat per fighter bonus feat rules.

Now, if you are starting at 10 instead of asking for how to evolve it up through to 10, then I would change two things. First, don't bother with that taking finesse as the fighter bonus feat thing. Second, you no longer NEED to play as a human. I mean, if the character is already at 10, you can hand wave away some of the issues with the early levels by saying you didn't go adventuring until level 2, or possibly even later.

I haven't read the Bladed Brush, but assuming that all checks out for allowing weapon finesse to be used then you should be good (assuming you do meet those requirements before you take the 3rd lvl unchained rogue. But you don't need to take weapon finesse at the fighter level, since you will get weapon finesse at level 1 unchained rogue.

Since weapon Finesse does not require a weapon to be selected when it is chosen, you could even start at lvl 1 rogue so you start with weapon finesse and use dex for attack (with normal finesse weapons) then at lvl 2/3 you can take the 1 lvl fighter to meet the prerequisites for Finesse Training before taking 3rd level of unchained rogue.

Dark Archive

Ferious Thune wrote:

Also, I had one of those Unchained Rogue Elven Branched Spear threads back in November. I didn't get a lot of feedback, likely because there are several longer threads, but you can see the builds I was looking at HERE.

I also had two posts and didn't get much feedback:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u2qw?Dex-Based-Reach-Build#1

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u33l?Paladin-2-UnMonk-1-8-UnRogue-DEX-Intimida te

I would reccommend you go at least 4 levels in UnRogue (or 5 for the extra SA dice/Rogue Edge Talents). Level 4 nets you Debilitating Injury (allows application of Hampered on enemies you just got a SA on, dropping their movement speed and denying them a 5ft step for more AoO from reach). It also allows better archetypes (i.e., scout) to allow you to get more ways of getting a SA. Finally, you'll get an extra rogue talent. One can be any combat feat, one can be weapon focus, or one can be Slow Reactions to prevent AoO from someone you got SA on to allow you to reposition more easily.

You would also need something (minimally a spiked gauntlet) that lets you threaten in the 5 ft area (yes you could use the move action from bladed brush, but then you've lost your reach/AoO on other enemies in the area). The second link above solves the 5ft threaten issue with a UnMonk (Scaled Fist) dip which also grants CHA to AC (you could even spend the free feat to get dodge to help you towards your just out of reach feat chain). If you aren't dipping Paladin as my build was, you don't need to use the Scaled Fist Archetype and will instead get WIS to AC so you can dump CHA (as most fighters do) and put a little more into your bad saves slot. You'll lose the flurry ability/bonus AC if you wear armour or a shield though so it doesn't necessarily work with the shield brace feat line. Alternatively you could dip one level of brawler to get the brawler flurry (level still counts towards fighter for qualifying for feats) and it gives you a variable combat multiple times per day.

I'm not sure if the move action to choke up on the glaive is treated as a 5ft step equivalent, so it may remove iterative attacks at higher levels.

Other feats that would be available to you with bladed brush's choke up ability that normal reach builds can't use are Stand Still/Combat Patrol (especially if you are already getting Dodge/Mobility) or the Step Up and Strike feat chain. Keep in mind these feats only work for adjacent foes. It can be fun to go Improved Trip/Greater Trip as well because if you trip them you get a free AoO (combined with a fortuitous weapon gives you two once per round), another AoO if they try to stand, and another AoO for their movement allowing you to really cash in on Combat Reflexes. Many reach builds go for Phalanx Formation (avoids soft cover from Allies so you can attack from second row or get AoO through allies bodies) and Lunge/Pushing Assault (keeps enemies from doing the 5ft step).


Starting at lvl 10 (at least atm, if i live to 11 then would start at 11 and so on) the build up to isnt as important. As long as the class lvls arent taken to out of wack, it really doesnt matter what lvl 1 is to a point.

The DM hasent said no to bladed rush working with Urogue and seems to think it should work out fine.

As for race, the main reason i said human first id the bonus to Dex. Dwarf is kinda for the fact the we are playing Giantslayer and the bonuses work in my favor. Assimar and Tiefling both can get Dex bonuses and a couple other cool things which is why they were mentioned.

Main idea is to be moving around in mithral breastplate and mithral shield (Dont know yet if lite or hvy) so i still get evasion, enough feats from fighter to get the ones i need and of course Dex to damage. Hoping for a 20 Dex before items, decent enough bonuses for dirty tricks to go off, and generally annoy the giants while the rest of the group picks em off.


I am playing a Dex human lance fighter that can be similar to what you want. It uses Path of War that I am not sure if your GM allows, but you can easily replace the PoW feats.

1: [Mounted Combat] [Skill Focus: Ride] [Weapon Focus: Lance] [Weapon Finesse]
2: [Two-Weapon Fighting], Bravery +1
3: [Spear Dancing Style], Armor Training I
4: [Martial Training I]
5: [Advanced Weapon Training: Warrior's Spirit], Spear Training +1/+2
6: [Martial Training II-], Bravery +2
7: [Martial Training III->], Spinning Lance
8: [Power Attack]
9. [Spear Dancing Spiral], Spear Training +2/+4, Banner +1
10.[Advanced Weapon Training: Trained Grace], Bravery +3
11.[Improved Two-Weapon Fighting], Piercing Lance
12.[Combat Reflexes]
13.[Cut from the Air], Spear Training +3/+6
14.[Smash from the Air], Bravery +4, Banner +2
15.[Advanced Weapon Training: Armed Bravery], Leaping Lance

Instead of the Martial Training Chain you can be a Tiefling and Either get take either Shield Focus->Shield Brace or if the party composition allows it - Fiend Sight Twice and an item or friendly spellcaster for Deeper Darkness.


If you were a half-orc you could be a Skulking Slayer and do lots of Dirty Tricks. Giants tend to have pretty high CMD, but they also don't tend to fly, so tripping could be an option too, especially if you apply some penalties with befuddling strike and dirty tricks first.

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