So the next campaign I'm going to get to play in is a sort of ground-level street crime game (almost?) exclusively in an urban environment with tight alleyways and cover-a-plenty. Since the structure of the campaign is going to have a lot of "15 minute adventuring days" the GM is setting fairly strict class restrictions- essentially nothing that can cast spells at level 1, no occult classes, and only "intuitive" or "self-taught" classes. We're encouraged to play as less optimal concepts, as the PCs are people who slipped through the cracks as no one noticed their potential greatness.
The party as it stands has a Faceless Enforcer Vigilante, an Urban Ranger (who, I *think* is using the dirty trick fighting style from UI), and a "heavy-hitter" (a slayer, a fighter, or an urban barbarian, per the player.) Looking at this group, I figure they desperately need a friendly face (the faceless enforcer has no face, friendly or otherwise) to play "good cop" next to all these scary people.
I've always loved the fluff of the Swashbuckler class, thought the glaive-wielding option enabled by Bladed Brush was interesting, and I like the idea of someone who ended up in the gutter as their ambitions were essentially limited to artistic pursuits (this is the sort of person who could do well if born to nobility, but alas.) So I wanted to make a glaive-wielding 'buckler.
There are two immediately apparent downsides to the Glaive as a Swashbuckler weapon. The first is it's a 20/x3 weapon so you can't rely on a steady stream of panache like the standard rapier-wielding 'buckler. The second is that due to how reach weapons work, the Swashbuckler's absolute best deed (Opportune Parry and Riposte) doesn't work well for you (you can parry but not riposte against adjacent enemies, unless you already shortened your grip during your turn.) These two problems are sort of related: you want frequent Panache so you can parry frequently, because free attacks are great.
Enter the Courser Archetype from Blood of the Beasts. Ordinarily this would seem like a dubious archetype, since it trades away the best deed the Swashbuckler gets, but Parrying might not be a better way to spend than Dodging Panache for the Glaive-wielder (which the courser gets a suped-up version of at level 7). Plus this archetype gets free spring attack at level 4 and "keeping the person you're fighting >10 feet away" is preferable for reach weapon users as their targets need to provoke to get close.
With the following relevant house rules/clarifications from the GM: Dodge and Mobility have been combined into one feat because Mobility is terrible (so the Courser gets both at level 1), and Slashing Grace works just fine with Bladed Brush, the first four levels seem pretty obvious:
1) Weapon Focus: (Glaive)
Human: Bladed Brush
Bonus: Dodge & Mobility
3) Slashing Grace
4) Bonus: Spring Attack.
But I'm sort of perplexed as to where to go from there to keep this viable into the mid-levels. Spring-Heeled Style is an option, but I already get "spring attack two people" as a deed at level 11. I'm not sure how to keep this concept from being doomed to irrelevancy later on, but I want to be charming and poetic and run on walls, so any advice is appreciated. I guess I could take Whirlwind attack...
2cp: I love my halfling daring champion. Challenge + Precise Strike = a ton of damage, and you aren't going to be using parry anyway, so maybe one could work for you. Order of the Seal could be good for a reach character, maybe?
It delays a lot of your swashiness until 4, but mine is level 8 (though with a dip in cleric to kick on Order of the Star's channeling) and still seems relevant.
One small thing to keep in mind with daring champion is that they get medium armor proficiency, so a mithral breastplate comes into play.
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I suggest grabbing Phalanx Formation and Redirect Attack if you have the prereq's for both. Sounds like you'll be doing plenty of close quarters reach weapon shenanigans and these will both help with that.
If you're not going to regain panache that often perhaps you want more of it. If you have grit or luck these explicitly can be used interchangeably with panache. Perhaps dips in mysterious stranger gunlinger and/or sleuth investigator are in order. The sleuth especially adds more ways of regaining these points too (and gets no casting, which would normally make it a poor archetype.)
Also take a look at the devoted muse PrC. It fits your shelynite swashbuckler idea, albeit it wants you to invest in feinting.
Why would a character two-handing a polearm with precise strike while adding level-to-damage become irrelevant?
Weapon Trick has some interesting polearm options.
One obvious direction you could go would be tripping stuff; there's interesting ways to graft big trip bonuses onto a character, like one level of Diviner/Foresight Wizard and Knowledge is Power to add INT to all combat maneuvers and grab a double-roll ability for important trips.
Spear Dancing Style + Bladed Brush creates all sorts of strange, interesting options, like Bladed Brush TWF. Spear Dancing Spiral and a level of Unchained Monk (Scaled Fist for CHA-to-AC?) would mean you could use Unchained Flurry of Blows with your glaive as a non-reach weapon, or use it as a reach weapon normally.
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Having looked at Bladed Brush again, the unfortunate issues that crop up with trying to use Slashing Grace with an irregular weapon type might be an issue, as well as the fact that you're not actually called out as wielding the weapon one-handed. So... dreaded 'table variation' I guess. It also begs the question of what modifier to your DEX damage you would get while two-handing with Slashing Grace if it was supposed to work.
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Having looked at Bladed Brush again, the unfortunate issues that crop up with trying to use Slashing Grace with an irregular weapon type might be an issue, as well as the fact that you're not actually called out as wielding the weapon one-handed. So... dreaded 'table variation' I guess. It also begs the question of what modifier to your DEX damage you would get while two-handing with Slashing Grace if it was supposed to work.
I think in the big Bladed Brush thread, some FAQs and common sense were employed to conclude that "treat it as a one-handed weapon" means treat it as a one-handed weapon.
Having looked at Bladed Brush again, the unfortunate issues that crop up with trying to use Slashing Grace with an irregular weapon type might be an issue, as well as the fact that you're not actually called out as wielding the weapon one-handed. So... dreaded 'table variation' I guess. It also begs the question of what modifier to your DEX damage you would get while two-handing with Slashing Grace if it was supposed to work.I think in the big Bladed Brush thread, some FAQs and common sense were employed to conclude that "treat it as a one-handed weapon" means treat it as a one-handed weapon.
A one-handed weapon wielded in two hands doesn't work with Slashing Grace though.
Actually... for the most badass Swashbuckler ever, slap Martial Versatility onto Bladed Brush and go STR-based Nodachi Swashbuckler. Full two-handed strength-style nodachi with Precise Strike and Panache.
Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler would also render Slashing Grace unnecessary anyhow for a DEX-based character; I have a feeling it was intended to only work for scimitar, but that's not how it actually works, so... yeah.
I asked the GM about the Slashing Grace/Bladed Brush issue and he basically said "if it works with Precise Strike, it works with Slashing Grace" which seems like a common sense explanation.
I have no idea if you get 1.5xDex or just Dex to damage in this case though.
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The technical conclusion of the big bad bladed brush thread was leaning more towards "doesn't work with Slashing Grace but maybe should have" than "it does".
The logic is as follows:
- You're treating the brush as [1H and your off hand not attacking] for [feats and class abilities that require that, such as precise strike].
- Precise strike requires your off hand to be not attacking. Fine.
- You're still holding the brush in both hands, because your off hand only counts as not attacking for some things that require it.
- Slashing Grace requires your off hand to be unoccupied. But "unoccupied" is stricter than "not attacking" and not satisfied by Bladed Brush.
- Since you're wielding the brush in two hands and only treating it as 1H for some specific things, it's a 2H weapon for everything else. Like 1.5 Str damage and Power Attack.
The conclusion is: no Slashing Grace, but going for about 14 Str and Power Attack but a whole lot more Dex gives you the defensive/initiative benefits of a build focusing around Dex, the damage output of a 2H character (nearly) plus one with precise strike. Which is a LOT. (And Daring Champion lifts it over the top with Challenge.)
This isn't so bad for you. If you build with a strength of 14, if for any mission it would be too conspicuous to go around with a polearm, you can just take a dagger instead. You'll be doing a bit less damage, but you still have strength, power attack and precise strike. Whereas a pure dex to damage build has to fully specialize in a single weapon. Your backup options are much more robust.
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Which raises another question. Isn't a polearm an awfully conspicuous weapon for a street gang? Although the Shrinking shrinking enchantment could be useful.
So thinking about the Martial Versatility idea to get a high crit weapon, I think the "my brush is a Nodachi" is a bit of of a stretch particularly for a Shelynite, but since a Fauchard is basically a glaive with the edge on the concave side side of the blade, it would be appropriate. It's an exotic weapon but Cracked White Opalescent Pyramid ioun stones are only 1500 gold (and I don't have feats open until level 5 anyway). Does "Swashbuckler levels are considered fighter levels for the purpose of meeting combat feat prerequisites" apply only to bonus feats and not to regular ones?
Regarding whether a polearm being overly conspicuous, I figured that I could keep it wrapped in canvas, since the glaive the glaive can be made with a simpler head than most polearms (though a lot of the bits and bobs on historical polearms were more ornamental than practical). A finesse based swashbuckler devoted to the goddess of art using a fine brush seems apropos. Alternatively, you can hide it on a cart among poles or curtain rods or lumber pretty easily.
Phalanx Formation and Redirect Attack are neat feats, but I'd have to see how often they'd come up during the first few levels. The 15 INT prereq is tough, considering I prefer charisma headbands.
A Glamered weapon is ideal.
As far as the text goes, Swashbuckler = Fighter levels isn't restricted to bonus feats; only combat feats.
Just to point out, a STR-based Swashbuckler in mithral medium armor can work just fine. Armor Expert plus mithral breastplate is zero ACP and works with all light armor features.
Just to play the Devil's Advocate, I would remind you that the best Swashbuckler's features are the ones you get at level 1, and they don't actually require you to jump through any weapon-specific hoops to use.
1 level of Swashbuckler is a fantastic dip, but as far as defining power-features go overall, Precise Strike for '+level damage' is probably the single biggest deal. Think Paladin Smite Evil or Cavalier/Samurai Challenge. The weapon restrictions on it balance-out with things like Fighter feats and Weapon Training, which other +level damage classes don't get. Being able to stack two-handing with Precise Strike is very strong... it makes me think that the concept was 'balanced' with the idea of a character using finesse with secondary strength for damage, but who knows.
But Precise Strike is precision damage, so it doesn't get multiplied on critical hits, is negated by anything that negates a crit, and can't be used on blobs at all. Power Attack does way more damage than Precise Strike. It is a nice feature, but it is no Smite/Challenge.
Power Attack works with Precise Strike, so it's not like you have to choose. Sure, Challenge and Smite are better if active, but they're all huge buffs.
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I was thinking about a daring champion. Dex to damage? Who cares about that when I'm getting precise strike and challenge? Maybe Risky Striker as well? 1 level of swashbuckler to get the parry back maybe.
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I would like to mention that with Martial Versatility and Bladed brush you can use a Crook as an effective swashbuckler weapon.
While this is undoubtably worse than the other options you have available, the ability to be a badass Shepard is not one to overlook. Especially since it allows you to grapple and trip from a distance (making agile maneuvers an interesting option).
Just gonna say that its an option for a cool NPC (Note: Online at level 3 as long as you have 1 level of Swash for finesse).
I was thinking about a daring champion. Dex to damage? Who cares about that when I'm getting precise strike and challenge? Maybe Risky Striker as well? 1 level of swashbuckler to get the parry back maybe.
As good as Challenge is, the Swashbuckler does get Fighter feats and a Weapon Training feature. When the Daring Champion is getting +9 from Challenge at level 9, the Swashbuckler can have inherent +4 damage and +3 accuracy from Focus/Specialization feats and Weapon Training, plus free Improved Critical. Not that Daring Champion isn't really great; it's just not quite the combat edge it's often said to to be when accuracy is considered.
I was thinking about a daring champion. Dex to damage? Who cares about that when I'm getting precise strike and challenge? Maybe Risky Striker as well? 1 level of swashbuckler to get the parry back maybe.As good as Challenge is, the Swashbuckler does get Fighter feats and a Weapon Training feature. When the Daring Champion is getting +9 from Challenge at level 9, the Swashbuckler can have inherent +4 damage and +3 accuracy from Focus/Specialization feats and Weapon Training, plus free Improved Critical. Not that Daring Champion isn't really great; it's just not quite the combat edge it's often said to to be when accuracy is considered.
Order of the Star or Order of the Green can give you +3 to attack a challenged enemy (& some other benefits) by that level if you're concerned about accuracy. No free improved critical, true, and you probably want to spend a feat on Chain Challenge anywhere but PFS. Probably Extra Challenge instead given the ban their house rules have on CC. One bonus combat feat at 6 about cancels that out.
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Bladed Brush specifically mentions working with Precise Strike, so I don't think there's any worry about that part.I agree, but weirdly there's big threads with lots of people arguing that it somehow doesn't actually work here on this forum.
I don't remember anyone questioning that it works with Precise Strike. The things called into question were Slashing Grace and Spell Combat.
I don't remember anyone questioning that it works with Precise Strike. The things called into question were Slashing Grace and Spell Combat.I think the thing that people were arguing it doesn't work were saying is that even though it counts as a one-handed weapon it still takes up your free hand to wield. Since Slashing Grace, Spell Combat, and Precise Strike all have the same requirement of a free hand that means it either works for all of them or none of them. So people were arguing that it does not do what it says it does, and I don't think anyone managed to be convinced by the other side.
Nope, precise strike does not require you to have a free hand. It requires you to not attack with a weapon in your other hand or use a shield other than a buckler. Since you are not TWF, you should be good.
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I don't remember anyone questioning that it works with Precise Strike. The things called into question were Slashing Grace and Spell Combat.I think the thing that people were arguing it doesn't work were saying is that even though it counts as a one-handed weapon it still takes up your free hand to wield. Since Slashing Grace, Spell Combat, and Precise Strike all have the same requirement of a free hand that means it either works for all of them or none of them. So people were arguing that it does not do what it says it does, and I don't think anyone managed to be convinced by the other side.
There was a lot of disagreement about Slashing Grace and Spell Combat, but the wording very neatly fits Precise Strike and I don't think anyone seriously pursued controversy in that direction.
Only 2/3 abilities were disputed :P
I think slashing grace *ought* to work with anything that works with precise strike, since in the ACG playtest all slashing grace did was "enable people to use swashbuckler class features (e.g. precise strike) with slashing weapons" but that was deemed too weak to be worth a feat and a silly tax for someone who wanted their swashbuckler to use a cutlass, so the dex-to-damage clause was added (of course, since that made rapiers suboptimal, so they needed to print fencing grace as a patch).
So I think RAI if it works with precise strike, since the original point of slashing grace was "make things work with precise strike and other swashbuckler deeds" it should work with slashing grace.
I mean, precise strike does not work with slashing weapons without slashing grace. Bladed Brush explicitly calls out precise strike and the glaive is a slashing weapon, not a piercing weapon. So you kind of need to take slashing grace to even make bladed brush do anything, so they should probably work together.
I now realize that the aforementioned glaivebuckler sketch won't do much of anything prior to level 3 because I can't finesse glaives with swashbuckler's finesse prior to having slashing grace. So maybe I need to take slashing grace at level 1 and wait until level 3 to pick up the glaive.
Thinking about it, this is a pickle:
Many all of the Swashbuckler's class features require a one-handed piercing weapon (Swashbuckler's Finesse, Precise Strike, etc.)
Slashing Grace lets you treat a one-handed slashing weapon with which you have weapon focus as a one-handed piercing weapon.
Bladed Brush lets you treat a glaive (Which is a two handed slashing weapon) as a one-handed slashing weapon and also finesse it.
So if your first feat is Weapon Focus (Glaive) you cannot take Slashing Grace before you have Bladed Brush, because the Glaive isn't treated as a one-handed slashing weapon until you have Bladed Brush. If you lack slashing grace, however, you cannot make use of swashbuckler's finesse, so you can't finesse a glaive so use STR to attack until level 3.
So it seems to me that either the glaivebuckler needs to suck it up for 2 levels (or use a weapon other than the one they're spending their 1st 3 feats on), use retraining shenanigans, or go STR based.
I sort of wonder if a human fighter wouldn't be better as a finesse-based glaive user, since they can take WF(Glaive), Weapon Finesse, and Bladed Brush with their first three feats, getting Slashing Grace at level 2 (or skipping it entirely to use trained grace at level 5 instead.)
Precise strike is pretty definitively covered by the exact wording in the feat (and even called out explicitly), not an issue.
Slashing Grace isn't though.
The technical conclusion of the big bad bladed brush thread was leaning more towards "doesn't work with Slashing Grace but maybe should have" than "it does".
The logic is as follows:
- You're treating the brush as [1H and your off hand not attacking] for [feats and class abilities that require that, such as precise strike].
- Precise strike requires your off hand to be not attacking. Fine.
- You're still holding the brush in both hands, because your off hand only counts as not attacking for some things that require it.
- Slashing Grace requires your off hand to be unoccupied. But "unoccupied" is stricter than "not attacking" and not satisfied by Bladed Brush.
- Since you're wielding the brush in two hands and only treating it as 1H for some specific things, it's a 2H weapon for everything else. Like 1.5 Str damage and Power Attack.The conclusion is: no Slashing Grace, but going for about 14 Str and Power Attack but a whole lot more Dex gives you the defensive/initiative benefits of a build focusing around Dex, the damage output of a 2H character (nearly) plus one with precise strike. Which is a LOT. (And Daring Champion lifts it over the top with Challenge.)
This isn't so bad for you. If you build with a strength of 14, if for any mission it would be too conspicuous to go around with a polearm, you can just take a dagger instead. You'll be doing a bit less damage, but you still have strength, power attack and precise strike. Whereas a pure dex to damage build has to fully specialize in a single weapon. Your backup options are much more robust.
[Excuses for the moderate thread-necro.]
This interpretation should make the Vigilante's Lethal Grace talent very good - and it can be picked up at level 2. Since Lethal Grace has scaling damage as well, it may be interesting to go Swashbuckler 1 / Vigilante 4 / Devoted Muse. Bonus points for picking up the Cunning Feint talent along the way, of course.