Not yet, but Hillary was looking into it.
Clinton Might Be Moving Toward Social Security Privatization
I can only presume the Republicans' plan is worse.
That's the way I've heard it, too. Think I called for some intern to give Obama a hummer somewhere on these boards when something similar was being discussed. Maybe Simpson-Bowles? I forget now.
Not yet, but Hillary was looking into it.Not a plan I'm fond of, but a long stretch from that headline.
I agree. My tag was more accurate than Forbes'.
Well, without an edit of your last phrase, I'm not sure how to craft a snarky reply, but,
As some of our more hailing-from-social-democratic-countries Paizonians might be better able to explain (not Madame Sissyl), the standard privatizing playbook is to create a private alternative to the public service, underfund the public service, point to the relative successes of the private alternative, and then cutback the public service even further.
I take no solace in Hillary's non-endorsing of it pre-election; attacking Social Security is still, I believe, widely unpopular with huge swathes of the American electorate and has been a recurring motif in Clintonian politics for awhile. Whether they could get the rest of the Democrats to go along with, never mind the Republicans, I would have no idea.
I'd also point out that this plan, like Obamacare, probably looks better the more and more the American capitalist class used their decades-long globalization excuse to attack labor, organized or otherwise, and the virtual disappearance of decent employer-paid health, welfare and pension plans.
Whether this constitutes blaming Hillary when she doesn't even win the presidency, I couldn't say, but it provides some context to Citizen Humual's comments about Democrats proposing less horrible horrible things than the horrible horrible things the Republicans propose.
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About a half-dozen times if my post history is any indication, but I may have missed some.
Don't see anything about "this time for sure" in there, though. Maybe someone else said that?
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Random Paizo Politroll Nostalgia
It's kind of amazing that five years later, it's pretty much the same posters saying the same things to each other. On the other hand, it becomes obvious that these conversations aren't a complete waste of time. For example, I would never have voted at all in 2012. So yay! for you, although, I consider this a rightward drift on my part.
Can't believe I'm letting you liberals rub off on me.
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To be honest I wish I lived in a world where I didn't need to think about politics because I knew everything was going A-ok
As is, Paizo does provide a bit of a venting ground for me on politics, and I genuinely learn new things on threads like this that I didn't know about before.
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FDR "context" "product of his time"
HRC is a politician in a time when big money donations is the only proven viable path to victory.
Seems like someone can't maintain internal consistency.
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To be honest I wish I lived in a world where I didn't need to think about politics because I knew everything was going A-ok
As is, Paizo does provide a bit of a venting ground for me on politics, and I genuinely learn new things on threads like this that I didn't know about before.
sad that the peanut gallery of a gaming site is more informative than most news sources...
Did I say the Bush tax cuts were a bridge too far?
Yes, you considered it so egregious that you included it in your list of sins of how democrats are just republicans.
Who do you vote for if you want wall street bankers brought to justice? Who do you vote for if you want less war? Who do you vote for if you're anti-fracking? Heck who do you vote for if you want to keep anything from the new deal? Bill Clinton and Obama have talked about privatizing social security, Obama made Bush tax cuts permanent, Bill Clinton repealed banking regulations . . . I mean when the supposed non-republicans are doing things that republicans can only dream about you have to wonder what's the point of voting if the people are pretty much ignored and a corpratist agenda is being rammed through regardless of who's in charge.
Also, you keep apologizing and making excuses for what FDR did. I'm not sure why you insist on digging your moral pit deeper, but you keep doing it. Please don't feel like you need to educate me on the subject. I'm no expert, but fairly familiar with it.
Random Paizo Politroll Nostalgia
It's kind of amazing that five years later, it's pretty much the same posters saying the same things to each other. On the other hand, it becomes obvious that these conversations aren't a complete waste of time. For example, I would never have voted at all in 2012. So yay! for you, although, I consider this a rightward drift on my part.
Can't believe I'm letting you liberals rub off on me.
Just curious, what political decision making process do you envision to enact the will of the people after the worker's revolution?
Did I say the Bush tax cuts were a bridge too far?Yes, you considered it so egregious that you included it in your list of sins of how democrats are just republicans.
Right, and I'm saying that I want democrats to be less like republicans, that tax cuts should be a thing a republican should have tried to make permanent and not a democrat. That doesn't mean I wouldn't have voted for Obama has I known he was going to do that, but just because I would have voted for him doesn't mean I'm not happy about it. If memory serves the republicans were holding government hostage by refusing to vote on a budget bill. The tax cuts were part of the compromise. I don't think he should have compromised. That was something he should have fought on.
Right now there's effectively two serious choices, republican or democrat, or horrible and less horrible, and you could also not vote which a large chunk of the population choose to do.
And then you held up FDR as your ideal democrat, who interred 120,000 people because of their ethnicity and denied safe refuge to another 200,000, resulting in their death.
You would rather have a democrat who denies thousands of people their liberty for no reason and/or put them in a deadly situation, than one who compromises on taxes.
Most recent episode she interviews Rick Wilson. To political insiders, he's famous for writing Republican attack ads, such as the Jeremiah Wright ad in 2008, and the Max Cleland ad in 2002. He's an opposition research specialist.
In his opinion, the easiest way for democrats to win back Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Ohio is to give up on gun control. Give in on that one issue and democrats swing back all four states easily.
I've been thinking about it some over the course of the day and I'm leaning towards supporting the idea. It's a fight worth having, but right now it's so entrenched that no meaningful ground can actually be made. Maybe if we solve some other issues an opportunity will open up down the line, but for now just concede defeat on this one.
Just curious, what political decision making process do you envision to enact the will of the people after the worker's revolution?Random Paizo Politroll Nostalgia
It's kind of amazing that five years later, it's pretty much the same posters saying the same things to each other. On the other hand, it becomes obvious that these conversations aren't a complete waste of time. For example, I would never have voted at all in 2012. So yay! for you, although, I consider this a rightward drift on my part.
Can't believe I'm letting you liberals rub off on me.
Voting in workers councils.
Did I say the Bush tax cuts were a bridge too far?Yes, you considered it so egregious that you included it in your list of sins of how democrats are just republicans.
Right, and I'm saying that I want democrats to be less like republicans, that tax cuts should be a thing a republican should have tried to make permanent and not a democrat. That doesn't mean I wouldn't have voted for Obama has I known he was going to do that, but just because I would have voted for him doesn't mean I'm not happy about it. If memory serves the republicans were holding government hostage by refusing to vote on a budget bill. The tax cuts were part of the compromise. I don't think he should have compromised. That was something he should have fought on.
Right now there's effectively two serious choices, republican or democrat, or horrible and less horrible, and you could also not vote which a large chunk of the population choose to do.
And then you held up FDR as your ideal democrat, who interred 120,000 people because of their ethnicity and denied safe refuge to another 200,000, resulting in their death.
You would rather have a democrat who denies thousands of people their liberty for no reason and/or put them in a deadly situation, than one who compromises on taxes.
The Internment of Japanese Americans and the ban on Jewish immigratio were a product of the time not jut one man, even a President. The reforms of Roosevelt are the reason that the United States even had a middle class for as long as it did.
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[Shakes head]
You guys really gotta learn to go harder on the offensive.
For example, if someone waves FDR turning away 200,000 Jewish refugees to their deaths, you hit them back with Obama turning away 800,000 Central American refugees to their possible deaths.
Like so:
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I think FDR did do some good things that have benefited this country. I don't lionize him as some sort of hero though. He probably cost millions of people their lives, but also helped install one of the best social safety nets in our country, improving the lives of millions of others. One doesn't excuse the other, nor is one necessarily tarnished by the other. Both are part of his legacy and must be accepted.
Do you get the difference? Stop trying to put people on one side of things or the other. Stop making it an all or nothing decision.
No president will be my ideal democrat, because a president is a compromise made by millions of people. It's ridiculous to think that a president is going to reflect all of my ideals, because I am a very small fraction of that coalition of millions of people and many of them have disagreements with me.
Obama failed on a lot of progressive issues, but he also succeeded on quite a few. At this point, I don't think anyone in that office is capable of turning aside some of the momentum of institutions and policies we've had in place for decades, regardless of their intentions. It's purely hypothetical, but if Sanders had gotten the nomination and won the presidency, I think a lot of people would be disappointed at how drone strikes were still a thing that continued to happen.
[Shakes head]
You guys really gotta learn to go harder on the offensive.
For example, if someone waves FDR turning away 200,000 Jewish refugees to their deaths, you hit them back with Obama turning away 800,000 Central American refugees to their possible deaths.
Like so:
Which if you ask me, is part of the reason I'm in favor of open borders and the free movement of labor. But you can't have that without free trade as well.
Hence why I'm in favor of globalization, I want workers to be able to escape dangerous situations and find better lives where they can.
Yes, I know. We've had this conversation many, many times.
Voting in workers councils.Just curious, what political decision making process do you envision to enact the will of the people after the worker's revolution?Random Paizo Politroll Nostalgia
It's kind of amazing that five years later, it's pretty much the same posters saying the same things to each other. On the other hand, it becomes obvious that these conversations aren't a complete waste of time. For example, I would never have voted at all in 2012. So yay! for you, although, I consider this a rightward drift on my part.
Can't believe I'm letting you liberals rub off on me.
This is a tangent for your own thread on all things Communist, Comrade Anklebiter: how are these councils formed, how do they police themselves and what is the structure of the gov't you envision?
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I shall attempt to deal with that at a later date, Mad Comrade, either here or there, but for now, amusing labor article for stuffy grammarians:
A court’s decision in a Maine labor dispute hinged on the absence of an Oxford comma
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Oh, is that how elections work? You mean I don't have to agree with 100% of what they're running on to vote for them? Wow, I have been enlightened today. Very lucky for me that in the 22 years I've been voting in Canada that I've always had a candidate that was a perfect fit for me at every level of government. So, quick question though, if I don't agree 100% with someone how do I express that? Apparently complaining means I'm all or nothing. Expressing dissatisfaction with the direction the democrats are going, in a thread about the direction the democrats are going, means I'm completely against them. Also that I can't see nuance. I eagerly...I think FDR did do some good things that have benefited this country. I don't lionize him as some sort of hero though. He probably cost millions of people their lives, but also helped install one of the best social safety nets in our country, improving the lives of millions of others. One doesn't excuse the other, nor is one necessarily tarnished by the other. Both are part of his legacy and must be accepted.
Do you get the difference? Stop trying to put people on one side of things or the other. Stop making it an all or nothing decision.
No president will be my ideal democrat, because a president is a compromise made by millions of people. It's ridiculous to think that a president is going to reflect all of my ideals, because I am a very small fraction of that coalition of millions of people and many of them have disagreements with me.
Obama failed on a lot of progressive issues, but he also succeeded on quite a few. At this point, I don't think anyone in that office is capable of turning aside some of the momentum of institutions and policies we've had in place for decades, regardless of their intentions. It's purely hypothetical, but if Sanders had gotten the nomination and won the presidency, I think a lot of people would be disappointed at how drone strikes were still a thing that continued to happen.
I'd like to deal with this one issue at a time, for clarity sake.
Please explain to me how Republicans and Democrats are similar on issues regarding LGBTQ rights. Not concerned with the parties that were 20 or 30 years ago, how are they the same right now.
Actually, turns out the Wikipedia page is a decent thumbnail on their history and organization for starters:
I'd like to deal with this one issue at a time, for clarity sake.
Given the number of planks or issues to be covered, there is going to be a lot of one at a time discussions...
Interestingly, and (I admit) atypically, the Kentucky bathroom bill and "religious freedom" (to discriminate against homosexuals) bill were introduced into the House earlier this year by a Democrat to the consternation of the Tea Party governor and GOP House Speaker, mostly because they were concerned about the economic ramifications of a boycott blowback.
To be fair, the rest of the state Dems denounced the bill, but, nonetheless, interesting story.
Since then, I believe, the Republican-introduced senate bathroom bill has passed; don't know about the House bills.
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Federal courts are saying Trump's new travel ban is just as unconstitutional as the first one.
Basically, you can't make a bigoted unconstitutional effort to restrict travel by members of a particular religion 'pass legal muster' no matter how much you water down and/or disguise it... the intent will always be unconstitutional.
Funny how that works. You'd have thought a former prosecutor like Giuliani would know that, but apparently not, because he went on national TV and bragged about how they were going to revise the "muslim ban" to 'make it legal'. Immigration lawyers have been using that, and other equally bone-headed statements by Trump and his advisers, to hammer them in court.
In short, team Trump is demonstrably incompetent. There is no 'brilliant plan' to distract the media with seeming mis-steps... they really are just this inept. Ergo, the democrats should go at them head on and let the country see 'the Donald' flailing about helplessly. Heck, some of the Republicans have started to do so.
Federal courts are saying Trump's new travel ban is just as unconstitutional as the first one.
Basically, you can't make a bigoted unconstitutional effort to restrict travel by members of a particular religion 'pass legal muster' no matter how much you water down and/or disguise it... the intent will always be unconstitutional.
Funny how that works. You'd have thought a former prosecutor like Giuliani would know that, but apparently not, because he went on national TV and bragged about how they were going to revise the "muslim ban" to 'make it legal'. Immigration lawyers have been using that, and other equally bone-headed statements by Trump and his advisers, to hammer them in court.
In short, team Trump is demonstrably incompetent. There is no 'brilliant plan' to distract the media with seeming mis-steps... they really are just this inept. Ergo, the democrats should go at them head on and let the country see 'the Donald' flailing about helplessly. Heck, some of the Republicans have started to do so.
. . . Butbutbut! It said right in the text this time that it wasn't discriminating on religion, and all these so called judges judicially overreached by considering its intent. He's trying really hard to make America great again you guys! :P
Random Paizo Politroll Nostalgia
It's kind of amazing that five years later, it's pretty much the same posters saying the same things to each other. On the other hand, it becomes obvious that these conversations aren't a complete waste of time. For example, I would never have voted at all in 2012. So yay! for you, although, I consider this a rightward drift on my part.
Can't believe I'm letting you liberals rub off on me.
As I said at the time, I'm calling that one a win, Doodles.
I'm amazed at the things you find amazing; you were also amazed at the number of posters in this thread, weren't you? I mean, why would you be amazed that the thread has a small number of participants, or that we have the same opinions that we did then? Those two things sort of exemplify the function of internet message boards IMNSHO.
I'd like to deal with this one issue at a time, for clarity sake.Given the number of planks or issues to be covered, there is going to be a lot of one at a time discussions...
A lot of these discussions get lost by people jumping from topic to topic to topic. People put out a jumble of ideas, don't defend them, then later on, put out a similar jumble of ideas again. It keeps happening and happening. It's constant, predictable and repeats.
Besides, look at the page count, we're already a long discussion.
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Please explain to me how Republicans and Democrats are similar on issues regarding LGBTQ rights. Not concerned with the parties that were 20 or 30 years ago, how are they the same right now.Depends on who you ask, Pence is against LGBTQ rights, but Trump has said that "I think I’m evolving, and I think I’m a very fair person, but I have been for traditional marriage," So much like Obama's opinions "evolved" in his presidency Trump is checking to see what's popular and is going to do that. If he thinks the majority of people like marriage equality then he's not going to touch it. As far as Transgender rights, the democrats have my preferred position on the matter, Obama instructed schools to allow students to use the bathroom they identify with. Again, Pence is an ogre, believing people should have the right to discriminate, but Trump at the very least has said that it should be a state's right matter.
The party itself is a few years behind the democratic party, which has been the trend, and so while they had an openly gay member on their party platform comity they were unlikely to take a progressive stance. We'll have to see if their opinions evolve while in office. Trans gendered Americans aren't going to see any progress, perhaps even a little regression, but I'm not sure the republicans are going to actually move on marriage equality as there are some powerful donors who are happy with the current law.
It should be noted that up here in Canada, we had marriage equality about 10 years before you, and when Stephen Harper was in opposition he was very much apposed, but when he got into office he did diddly squat. It's one thing to claim to be against something when your party has no chance of doing anything about it, but when it comes time to legally break up loving couples that trigger is a bit harder to pull.
The parties aren't just Pence, Trump and Obama. You also have thousands of governors, state legislators, etc. Around the country, states considering/passing bathroom bills are Republican controlled states. Trump cabinet members are already beginning the process of rescinding departmental rules changes that treated LGBTQ people equally. There were quite a few non-law rule changes that were made the past 8 years and Republicans are all too happy to rescind those changes.
So, do we agree the parties are significantly different on this issue? I'll let you pick, either switch to a new issue (your choice) or continue debating this one.
The parties aren't just Pence, Trump and Obama. You also have thousands of governors, state legislators, etc. Around the...Please explain to me how Republicans and Democrats are similar on issues regarding LGBTQ rights. Not concerned with the parties that were 20 or 30 years ago, how are they the same right now.Depends on who you ask, Pence is against LGBTQ rights, but Trump has said that "I think I’m evolving, and I think I’m a very fair person, but I have been for traditional marriage," So much like Obama's opinions "evolved" in his presidency Trump is checking to see what's popular and is going to do that. If he thinks the majority of people like marriage equality then he's not going to touch it. As far as Transgender rights, the democrats have my preferred position on the matter, Obama instructed schools to allow students to use the bathroom they identify with. Again, Pence is an ogre, believing people should have the right to discriminate, but Trump at the very least has said that it should be a state's right matter.
The party itself is a few years behind the democratic party, which has been the trend, and so while they had an openly gay member on their party platform comity they were unlikely to take a progressive stance. We'll have to see if their opinions evolve while in office. Trans gendered Americans aren't going to see any progress, perhaps even a little regression, but I'm not sure the republicans are going to actually move on marriage equality as there are some powerful donors who are happy with the current law.
It should be noted that up here in Canada, we had marriage equality about 10 years before you, and when Stephen Harper was in opposition he was very much apposed, but when he got into office he did diddly squat. It's one thing to claim to be against something when your party has no chance of doing anything about it, but when it comes time to legally break up loving couples that trigger is a bit harder to pull.
Exactly...I keep having points I want to make but you and TheJeff make them so much better for me.
You have to consider the overall consensus of the party, and what they have supported, and the context of that support. The republicans fought tooth and nail before and somewhat afterward the Supreme Court Decision regarding gay marriage. Losing at the Supreme Court level deflated their ability to do much on this front. As far as the recent fight goes, the democrats overall were instead very supportive of the gay marriage fight.
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In short, team Trump is demonstrably incompetent. There is no 'brilliant plan' to distract the media with seeming mis-steps... they really are just this inept. Ergo, the democrats should go at them head on and let the country see 'the Donald' flailing about helplessly. Heck, some of the Republicans have started to do so.
It feels like these guys binge watched "24" and have decided they now know how the government works.
In short, team Trump is demonstrably incompetent. There is no 'brilliant plan' to distract the media with seeming mis-steps... they really are just this inept. Ergo, the democrats should go at them head on and let the country see 'the Donald' flailing about helplessly. Heck, some of the Republicans have started to do so.It feels like these guys binge watched "24" and have decided they now know how the government works.
I think it's a pretty safe bet to include House of Cards. Maybe some West Wing, but c'mon, Bartlett? Not the president Trump wants to be!