why isn't there any non-magical healing


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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that is based on herbs. like "potions" and poultices that heal hp. having just played a "healer". and instead of paying for things i need i had to spend so much on healing wands and potions that costs so much. why doesn't pathfinder have a cheaper or some what less effective way to heal?


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I'm all for bringing in the short rest long rest mechanic personally.


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Well to be clear, there ARE nonmagical ways to heal. They just suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.


Heal skill is a thing in my games, after a successful heal check the recipent rolls half their hit dice, healing up to as much damage dealt in the most recent battle.


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The "treat Deadly Wounds" application of the heal skill. There's even a few ways to boost it through feats, traits, and magic items:

Battlefield Surgeon (trait, inner sea gods)
Devoted Healer (trait, Quests and Campaigns)
Vest of Surgery (magic item, ultimate equipment)
Heal Skill Unlocks (new rules, Pathfinder Unchained)


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It does.

Heal Skill wrote:

Provide Long-Term Care

Providing long-term care means treating a wounded person for a day or more. If your Heal check is successful, the patient recovers hit points or ability score points (lost to ability damage) at twice the normal rate: 2 hit points per level for a full 8 hours of rest in a day, or 4 hit points per level for each full day of complete rest; 2 ability score points for a full 8 hours of rest in a day, or 4 ability score points for each full day of complete rest.

You can tend as many as six patients at a time. You need a few items and supplies (bandages, salves, and so on) that are easy to come by in settled lands. Giving long-term care counts as light activity for the healer. You cannot give long-term care to yourself.

It's just much less effective than magic.


Because niche protection matters (if we're talking about magic classes).

Just look at the kind of fits people have at arcane healing magic (unless it's on a Bard or Witch).

I guess it's just a matter of consistency (except when consistency didn't matter).


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Scythia wrote:

Because niche protection matters (if we're talking about magic classes).

Just look at the kind of fits people have at arcane healing magic (unless it's on a Bard or Witch).

I guess it's just a matter of consistency (except when consistency didn't matter).

In other words: Mundane healing would be a nice thing and nice things are for casters.


Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Scythia wrote:

Because niche protection matters (if we're talking about magic classes).

Just look at the kind of fits people have at arcane healing magic (unless it's on a Bard or Witch).

I guess it's just a matter of consistency (except when consistency didn't matter).

In other words: Mundane healing would be a nice thing and nice things are for casters.

Basically this. Even though hit points are an abstraction, people can only see healing hp as magical healing of physical wounds.


The Heal skill is table ruled to fit the needs of the game more often than not. If you are not in a PFS game, play it how you want it. The world is magic, why can't Heal be what you need it to be for your game.

The Healers handbook has expansions to self healing if you have a more Rule oriented table.


There's zero harm in mundane healing of wounds either.


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Anzyr wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Scythia wrote:

Because niche protection matters (if we're talking about magic classes).

Just look at the kind of fits people have at arcane healing magic (unless it's on a Bard or Witch).

I guess it's just a matter of consistency (except when consistency didn't matter).

In other words: Mundane healing would be a nice thing and nice things are for casters.
Basically this. Even though hit points are an abstraction, people can only see healing hp as magical healing of physical wounds.

No, no. HP isn't about casually shrugging off a Trex biting you, it's really just an abstract pool of hero's luck and close shaves! That's what happens when you get bull-rushed into a pool of lava after all. You're just being super lucky till you hit negatives and then reality takes over and you burn to a crisp.

In reality potions, cure spells, and all that are just giving more mystic luck back to people. Obviously.


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Tarik Blackhands wrote:
In other words: Mundane healing would be a nice thing and nice things are for casters.

Pretty much. For more information, check any random page of grognards.txt where gamers are loudly complaining about 4th ed D&D and Warlords 'shouting wounds closed'. (Because no matter how many editions reiterate that hit points are part stamina, part plot armor, and part physical toughness, some people STILL insist they're all Meat Points.


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[quote = Arbane] Pretty much. For more information, check any random page of grognards.txt where gamers are loudly complaining about 4th ed D&D and Warlords 'shouting wounds closed'. (Because no matter how many editions reiterate that hit points are part stamina, part plot armor, and part physical toughness, some people STILL insist they're all Meat Points.

People don't like it because it is more non-sensical than average. It is a life bar.

Problem is, a whole lot of the game, rules and gamestyle are based around it. There are ways around it that will work for some people, but mostly you just have to deal with the fact that it only sort of makes sense, at best. Peoples suspension of disbelief break at different points.


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Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Scythia wrote:

Because niche protection matters (if we're talking about magic classes).

Just look at the kind of fits people have at arcane healing magic (unless it's on a Bard or Witch).

I guess it's just a matter of consistency (except when consistency didn't matter).

In other words: Mundane healing would be a nice thing and nice things are for casters.
Basically this. Even though hit points are an abstraction, people can only see healing hp as magical healing of physical wounds.

No, no. HP isn't about casually shrugging off a Trex biting you, it's really just an abstract pool of hero's luck and close shaves! That's what happens when you get bull-rushed into a pool of lava after all. You're just being super lucky till you hit negatives and then reality takes over and you burn to a crisp.

In reality potions, cure spells, and all that are just giving more mystic luck back to people. Obviously.

It's a game so yes, a character's HP is literally an abstraction. Glad we covered that.


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I LIKE HP as meat points.

I also like non-magical restoration of meat points.


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Anzyr wrote:

It's a game so yes, a character's HP is literally an abstraction. Glad we covered that.

Yes it is, I'm just poking some fun at school of thought that HP is near 100% abstraction and characters don't actually get properly wounded till 0 and negatives. Which as I joked, breaks down fairly quickly.

Shadow Lodge

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Because f!@* you, that's why.


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TOZ wrote:
Because f$#+ you, that's why.

Pfffpt! That's your answer to everything.

Shadow Lodge

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Nope, that's 42.


Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Anzyr wrote:

It's a game so yes, a character's HP is literally an abstraction. Glad we covered that.

Yes it is, I'm just poking some fun at school of thought that HP is near 100% abstraction and characters don't actually get properly wounded till 0 and negatives. Which as I joked, breaks down fairly quickly.

OTOH, the school of thought that says mid-level characters absorb as much actual physical damage - as many meat points - as a rhino is equally silly. At that point, it ain't meat you're made out of.

And if you're making them all that weirdly different from human, why can't "shouting wounds closed" make sense?


thejeff wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Anzyr wrote:

It's a game so yes, a character's HP is literally an abstraction. Glad we covered that.

Yes it is, I'm just poking some fun at school of thought that HP is near 100% abstraction and characters don't actually get properly wounded till 0 and negatives. Which as I joked, breaks down fairly quickly.

OTOH, the school of thought that says mid-level characters absorb as much actual physical damage - as many meat points - as a rhino is equally silly. At that point, it ain't meat you're made out of.

And if you're making them all that weirdly different from human, why can't "shouting wounds closed" make sense?

Or in Hulk's case shouting people back to life.


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Don't you listen to your mother? The only way you'll be ready for tomorrow is by having a good ol' fashioned 8 hour sleep. Now get to bed before I deal 1d4 non-lethal with this belt.


resting to heal takes too long and does not heal enough. and magical healing is expensive or comes with moral or smug baggage.


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Healer's Handbook adds a bunch of feats to give non-casters self-healing during and outside of combat. They're all Combat feats so Fighters, Brawlers and all those other martial folks who get free Combat feats have easy access to them.


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zainale wrote:
that is based on herbs. like "potions" and poultices that heal hp. having just played a "healer". and instead of paying for things i need i had to spend so much on healing wands and potions that costs so much. why doesn't pathfinder have a cheaper or some what less effective way to heal?

After my appendectomy, I had a 48-hour post-operative recovery period during which I was told to stay down, was not allowed to shower, and was instructed to take tramadol for the pain. Following that, I was restricted from aerobic exercise and lifting anything over 20 lbs for at least two weeks. The scar area was sore for a month, and sensitive for about six...meaning if I stretched too much, I got a sharp, painful reminder that I had a surgical procedure. And that was from a routine laparoscopic surgery with a precision blade in a sterile environment where nothing went wrong.

The main reason there isn't a lot of mundane healing in D&D and its derivatives is because it's bad enough having to rest for 8 hours to regain spells. Waiting several months for wounds to heal probably puts too much of a damper on the game.


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zainale wrote:
that is based on herbs. like "potions" and poultices that heal hp. having just played a "healer". and instead of paying for things i need i had to spend so much on healing wands and potions that costs so much. why doesn't pathfinder have a cheaper or some what less effective way to heal?

Depends upon whether you count Alchemy. Technically, this is another form of magic, but you might be able to use it in some places where arcane, divine, and/or occult magic are banned, so that's something. The Paizo Fans United (3rd party) Herbalist Alchemist archetype would give the flavor you want, although it has a mechanical problem needing tweaking to fix (no replacement for Discoveries that affect Bombs, that don't work on the replacement Noxious Bombs). Note that the Herbalism class feature that replaces Alchemy is Extraordinary instead of Supernatural, thus allowing you to use it even in an Anti-Magic Field or dead magic area, which in certain specific campaigns could more than make up for the above-mentioned problem with Bomb/Noxious Bomb Discoveries/the lack thereof. Unfortunately, they didn't make an equivalent archetype for Investigators.


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No love for the Troll Styptic? It's probably worse than a potion of Infernal Healing (twice as much gp) but it's equivalent to two potions of Cure Light Wounds (I think one point of healing behind?). And it's perfect for a quack. "Let me rub some troll's blood and herbs on you".


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John Mechalas wrote:
zainale wrote:
that is based on herbs. like "potions" and poultices that heal hp. having just played a "healer". and instead of paying for things i need i had to spend so much on healing wands and potions that costs so much. why doesn't pathfinder have a cheaper or some what less effective way to heal?

After my appendectomy, I had a 48-hour post-operative recovery period during which I was told to stay down, was not allowed to shower, and was instructed to take tramadol for the pain. Following that, I was restricted from aerobic exercise and lifting anything over 20 lbs for at least two weeks. The scar area was sore for a month, and sensitive for about six...meaning if I stretched too much, I got a sharp, painful reminder that I had a surgical procedure. And that was from a routine laparoscopic surgery with a precision blade in a sterile environment where nothing went wrong.

The main reason there isn't a lot of mundane healing in D&D and its derivatives is because it's bad enough having to rest for 8 hours to regain spells. Waiting several months for wounds to heal probably puts too much of a damper on the game.

...That kind of healing DOES exist in this game though.

What he's asking about is mundane healing options that don't take days to work at high levels.

Godless Healing is one if you want to add it to the list Zainale.


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Unchained to rescue.

Heal

20 Ranks: When you treat deadly wounds, the target recovers hit point and ability damage as if it had rested for 3 days with long-term care.

At that point, you are just stabbing stimpacks and adrenaline shots right into their heart.


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I'm not sure it can really be considered a rescue when it requires a 20th level character to work.


Sundakan wrote:
I'm not sure it can really be considered a rescue when it requires a 20th level character to work.

Sure, but that skill unlock is pretty consistent in how powerful it is at level rank up.

You get to do a lot in a hour with just 5 ranks. Nothing a plaster and kisses can't fix.


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If you're fine with universally acclaimed 3pp, try the Medic from Dreamscarred Press. It's a nonmagical Path of War initiator that can do everything an in-combat healer needs to do, quickly and efficiently. Here are the playtest documents if you want to read it before you buy the pdf.

Silver Crusade

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Sundakan wrote:
John Mechalas wrote:
zainale wrote:
that is based on herbs. like "potions" and poultices that heal hp. having just played a "healer". and instead of paying for things i need i had to spend so much on healing wands and potions that costs so much. why doesn't pathfinder have a cheaper or some what less effective way to heal?

After my appendectomy, I had a 48-hour post-operative recovery period during which I was told to stay down, was not allowed to shower, and was instructed to take tramadol for the pain. Following that, I was restricted from aerobic exercise and lifting anything over 20 lbs for at least two weeks. The scar area was sore for a month, and sensitive for about six...meaning if I stretched too much, I got a sharp, painful reminder that I had a surgical procedure. And that was from a routine laparoscopic surgery with a precision blade in a sterile environment where nothing went wrong.

The main reason there isn't a lot of mundane healing in D&D and its derivatives is because it's bad enough having to rest for 8 hours to regain spells. Waiting several months for wounds to heal probably puts too much of a damper on the game.

...That kind of healing DOES exist in this game though.

What he's asking about is mundane healing options that don't take days to work at high levels.

Godless Healing is one if you want to add it to the list Zainale.

Um,

Godless Healing wrote:


You have mastered a specialized and complex technique to ignore pain by focusing your belief on the self rather than relying on faith.

Prerequisites: Cannot have a patron deity.

Benefit: Once per day when you have half your total hit points or fewer, you may heal yourself of an amount of damage equal to 1d8 plus your total Hit Dice as a move action. This is a supernatural ability.

Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you do, you may heal yourself one additional time per day.


Bob Bob Bob wrote:
No love for the Troll Styptic? It's probably worse than a potion of Infernal Healing (twice as much gp) but it's equivalent to two potions of Cure Light Wounds (I think one point of healing behind?). And it's perfect for a quack. "Let me rub some troll's blood and herbs on you".

i would prefer troll blood to corruptive soul blackening infernal healing.

i will have to take godless healing if i ever have a free feat to spare. i like that feat i just can't ever find a way to work it into a PC.

godless healing seems like it would be perfect for a druid. nature is not a god..? and it would probably approve of you taking care of yourself anyways.


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Rysky wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
John Mechalas wrote:
zainale wrote:
that is based on herbs. like "potions" and poultices that heal hp. having just played a "healer". and instead of paying for things i need i had to spend so much on healing wands and potions that costs so much. why doesn't pathfinder have a cheaper or some what less effective way to heal?

After my appendectomy, I had a 48-hour post-operative recovery period during which I was told to stay down, was not allowed to shower, and was instructed to take tramadol for the pain. Following that, I was restricted from aerobic exercise and lifting anything over 20 lbs for at least two weeks. The scar area was sore for a month, and sensitive for about six...meaning if I stretched too much, I got a sharp, painful reminder that I had a surgical procedure. And that was from a routine laparoscopic surgery with a precision blade in a sterile environment where nothing went wrong.

The main reason there isn't a lot of mundane healing in D&D and its derivatives is because it's bad enough having to rest for 8 hours to regain spells. Waiting several months for wounds to heal probably puts too much of a damper on the game.

...That kind of healing DOES exist in this game though.

What he's asking about is mundane healing options that don't take days to work at high levels.

Godless Healing is one if you want to add it to the list Zainale.

Um,

Godless Healing wrote:


You have mastered a specialized and complex technique to ignore pain by focusing your belief on the self rather than relying on faith.

Prerequisites: Cannot have a patron deity.

Benefit: Once per day when you have half your total hit points or fewer, you may heal yourself of an amount of damage equal to 1d8 plus your total Hit Dice as a move action. This is a supernatural ability.

Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you do, you may heal yourself one additional time per day.

Coulda sworn it was Ex.


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Selective realism, really. Because of the HP mechanic, adventurers can survive all sorts of things that should probably be fatal, but we selectively apply the "realism" filter by saying that these sorts of wounds are slow to heal on their own.

Dark Archive

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Sundakan wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Godless Healing wrote:


You have mastered a specialized and complex technique to ignore pain by focusing your belief on the self rather than relying on faith.

Prerequisites: Cannot have a patron deity.

Benefit: Once per day when you have half your total hit points or fewer, you may heal yourself of an amount of damage equal to 1d8 plus your total Hit Dice as a move action. This is a supernatural ability.

Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you do, you may heal yourself one additional time per day.

Coulda sworn it was Ex.

Rahadoum is on the cutting edge of trying to find non-divine ways to heal injuries, so it would make sense that Godless Healing could be an arcane or alchemical ritual enacted upon people who pay for the (still a little bit experimental...) procedure, and basically get this 1/day healing effect as a supernatural ability.

Flavor-wise, it could involve binding an elemental spirit of some sort into the body (like the mindless elemental spirits used to animate golems), or dipping the person in a vat of alchemical reagents, or tattooing them with arcane runes or something.

Various sorts of arcane magic could go into a healing ritual of this sort, such as conjuration (to call up healing energy straight from the positive energy plane, or from outsiders), necromancy (secondary casters and volunteers bleed themselves and accept temporary weakness to provide the pool of life-energy that the recipient of the ritual will be able to call upon later), or transmutation (causing the flesh to knit itself back together and lost blood to flow back into the body), etc. Whether the process involves wizards, bards, alchemists or witches, could depend on the 'source' of the Godless Healing, and since it's been left wide open, a GM could take it in any direction they want.

Silver Crusade

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If I recall it was also stated that Rahadoum uses Alchemists, Bards, and Witches for their healing needs as well (this was also before Pyschic casters came out). So they're not completely without healing by any means, just no Divine.


Set wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Godless Healing wrote:


You have mastered a specialized and complex technique to ignore pain by focusing your belief on the self rather than relying on faith.

Prerequisites: Cannot have a patron deity.

Benefit: Once per day when you have half your total hit points or fewer, you may heal yourself of an amount of damage equal to 1d8 plus your total Hit Dice as a move action. This is a supernatural ability.

Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you do, you may heal yourself one additional time per day.

Coulda sworn it was Ex.

Rahadoum is on the cutting edge of trying to find non-divine ways to heal injuries, so it would make sense that Godless Healing could be an arcane or alchemical ritual enacted upon people who pay for the (still a little bit experimental...) procedure, and basically get this 1/day healing effect as a supernatural ability.

Flavor-wise, it could involve binding an elemental spirit of some sort into the body (like the mindless elemental spirits used to animate golems), or dipping the person in a vat of alchemical reagents, or tattooing them with arcane runes or something.

Various sorts of arcane magic could go into a healing ritual of this sort, such as conjuration (to call up healing energy straight from the positive energy plane, or from outsiders), necromancy (secondary casters and volunteers bleed themselves and accept temporary weakness to provide the pool of life-energy that the recipient of the ritual will be able to call upon later), or transmutation (causing the flesh to knit itself back together and lost blood to flow back into the body), etc. Whether the process involves wizards, bards, alchemists or witches, could depend on the 'source' of the Godless Healing, and since it's been left wide open, a GM could take it in any direction they want.

In the Old World of Darkness terminology, Rahadoum hasn't yet managed to push the Consensus over to the point of view consistent with their wished-for healing methods, so Godless Healing is limited and may Paradoxically fail in an Anti-Magic Field or Dead Magic area -- just be glad it doesn't turn you into a toad or something . . . .


Scythia wrote:
Because niche protection matters.

Except for rogues ;)


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Selective realism, really. Because of the HP mechanic, adventurers can survive all sorts of things that should probably be fatal, but we selectively apply the "realism" filter by saying that these sorts of wounds are slow to heal on their own.

Which is bizarre, given that it's not supposed to be a 'real' injury until you hit zero HP.

I guess Plot Armor grows slowly. Like fingernails.


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gustavo iglesias wrote:
Scythia wrote:
Because niche protection matters.
Except for rogues ;)

Hey, Rogues have PLENTY of niche protection! Nobody else wants to be 'guy who sets off the traps with their face when they roll a 1', or 'guy with bad AC and medium HP who is useless in combat unless they're right in the enemy's face on the opposite side from the fighter'.

Liberty's Edge

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I'm definitely hoping Starfinder has good rules for nonmagical healers, to port into Pathfinder. We'll see . . .


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Arbane the Terrible wrote:
Which is bizarre, given that it's not supposed to be a 'real' injury until you hit zero HP.

Where does this interpretation come from?

Pathfinder, or rather Core, makes no such statement. HP's are merely an abstraction of your overall health at any given time, and they are diminished by wounds. There are no statements about injuries not being "real" until you hit zero. Zero HP is merely the magic number at which you lose consciousness unless you have a feat or ability that says otherwise.

Like any abstraction, HP's don't hold up well when tested against all possible sources of injury (poison, falling into lava, falling in general, being crushed by a piano), but it provides a useful framework on which to hang a combat system.

Personally, I think even the 1 hp/level/day rate of natural healing is pretty generous. But it's a game. If it were a simulation it'd take 100 times as long to play and no one would be having fun.

Liberty's Edge

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If there was instantaneous NonMagical healing..there would be no need for Clerics


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Sure there would. Somebosy has to to the administrative work and keep the parishioners paying.


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JPSTOD wrote:
If there was instantaneous NonMagical healing..there would be no need for Clerics

Because instantaneous non-magical healing is all Clerics are useful for, of course.


why hasn't any creative wizard figured a way to open a portal to the plane of positive energy and a way to bottle that energy for healing uses later.


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zainale wrote:
why hasn't any creative wizard figured a way to open a portal to the plane of positive energy and a way to bottle that energy for healing uses later.

Aren't those potions of Cure spells?

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