why isn't there any non-magical healing


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Entryhazard wrote:
zainale wrote:
why hasn't any creative wizard figured a way to open a portal to the plane of positive energy and a way to bottle that energy for healing uses later.
Aren't those potions of Cure spells?

Infernal Healing, actually (positive energy plane gives fast healing). Of course, with the messy side effect that if you gain too much temp HP you explode.

Maybe they already made them and the exploding customers put them out of business. "Oh no, little Timmy broke his leg!" "I'll heal him!" *SPLORCH* "You all saw him heal before he exploded though, right?"

Shadow Lodge

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JPSTOD wrote:
If there was instantaneous NonMagical healing..there would be no need for Clerics

Clerics are so much more than bandaid boxes.


John Mechalas wrote:
Arbane the Terrible wrote:
Which is bizarre, given that it's not supposed to be a 'real' injury until you hit zero HP.
Where does this interpretation come from?

My guess is from the lack of penalties (barring optional rules) for being at even 1 HP. Real wounds would slow you down, therefore PF wounds aren't real until you hit 0 HP.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Selective realism, really. Because of the HP mechanic, adventurers can survive all sorts of things that should probably be fatal, but we selectively apply the "realism" filter by saying that these sorts of wounds are slow to heal on their own.

Keeping in mind that the "slow" healing of 3eD&D/PF "realism" is still extremely fast compared to real realism.


zainale wrote:
why hasn't any creative wizard figured a way to open a portal to the plane of positive energy and a way to bottle that energy for healing uses later.

"This is a GREAT plan, and it has only a 30% chance of destroying the world!"


Bill Dunn wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Selective realism, really. Because of the HP mechanic, adventurers can survive all sorts of things that should probably be fatal, but we selectively apply the "realism" filter by saying that these sorts of wounds are slow to heal on their own.
Keeping in mind that the "slow" healing of 3eD&D/PF "realism" is still extremely fast compared to real realism.

Also, Real Realism in healing often includes variations on the phrase 'you'll never have full use of [body part] again, I'm afraid'. (Which is why I'm generally not a huge fan of games that try to do 'realistic' wounds - I'd rather not have my character face-down in a pool of their own blood on round one due to a bad roll, thanks.)


JPSTOD wrote:
If there was instantaneous NonMagical healing..there would be no need for Clerics

And we need to force people to play clerics because...


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Arbane the Terrible wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Selective realism, really. Because of the HP mechanic, adventurers can survive all sorts of things that should probably be fatal, but we selectively apply the "realism" filter by saying that these sorts of wounds are slow to heal on their own.

Which is bizarre, given that it's not supposed to be a 'real' injury until you hit zero HP.

That is wrong.

PRD wrote:
What Hit Points Represent: Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.


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Unless the GM is a prick, there are plenty of ways in D&D 3.5 and Third Party Material for Pathfinder that could boost healing the mundane or extraordinary way.

The D20 Modern rules had two things that were added to the Heal skill:

Restore Hit Points (DC 15): With a medical kit, if a character has lost hit points, the character can restore some of them. A successful check, as a full-round action, restores 1d4 hit points. The number restored can never exceed the character’s full normal total of hit points. This application of the skill can be used successfully on a character only once per day.
Time: Full-round action

Surgery (DC 20): With a surgery kit, a character can conduct field surgery. This application of the Heal skill carries a –4 penalty, which can be negated with the Surgery feat. Surgery requires 1d4 hours; if the patient is at negative hit points, add an additional hour for every point below 0 the patient has fallen.
Time: 1d4 hours
Note: Surgery restores 1d6 hit points for every character level of the patient (up to the patient’s full normal total of hit points) with a successful skill check. Surgery can only be used successfully on a character once in a 24-hour period. A character who undergoes surgery is fatigued for 24 hours, minus 2 hours for every point above the DC the surgeon achieves. The period of fatigue can never be reduced below 6 hours in this fashion.

In the Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords you could take the feat Martial Study and choose Crusader's Strike (successful attack allows you to heal 1d6 + 1/initiator level).

Surgery (The Modern Path - Heroes of the Modern World, p.61)
Use the Heal skill to perform surgery.
Requirements: Heal 2 ranks
Advantage: Conduct surgery with a healer's kit; time requirement = 1d4 hours +1 hour for every point below 0 hp; DC is 10 + 1 per 1d6 of healing.
Disadvantage: If the skill check fails by 5 or more the patient will fall under the condition Bleed.
Verdict: Given that it can be used only once in a 24-hour period, this feat, in conjunction with the Heal skill, is best used after you've tried everything to get a character above zero hit points. This feat is balanced between trying to achieve a lot of hit point recovery versus speed. A character who undergoes surgery is fatigued
for 24 hours, minus 2 hours for every point above the DC the surgeon achieves (min. 6 hours). Thus, for example, you could potentially heal a character for 1d6 hit points at a DC 11 skill check after two to five hours of surgery, but if you manage to get a total check of 20 the character recovers from the fatigue within 6 hours. So let's say that the surgeon can make a DC 20 check – he therefore can potentially heal a character for 10d6 hit points but the character will need 24 hours before not being fatigued anymore. The patient could technically adventure but he would be a “crutch” to the team. The trick is to be able to pick a DC that you know you can still pull off on a roll of 1, because we don't want our patient to bleed out.

Healing Hands Skill Trick (Complete Scoundrel)
Requirement: Heal 5 ranks
Effect: Heal someone 1d6HP whenever you make a Heal check to stabilize them. While restrictive, this costs a mere 7 skill points to give you Cure Minor Wounds at will (but only on dying characters). So there's no reason not to grab this if you've maxed out Heal for some reason.

Combat Vigor was a great feat in Player's Handbook II, but it was nerfed when it was changed in Healer's Handbook, page 14.

Healing Salve (Tome & Blood, p.72)
Price: 50 gp; Weight —
DC Check: 25
Rubbing this stinky green paste into wounds promotes rapid healing. Applying the salve is a full-round action. One dose cures 1d8 points of damage to a living creature. The Alchemy check DC to make healing salve is 25. If you have 5 or more ranks in Profession (herbalist), you get a +2 bonus on checks to craft it.
Verdict: A high Craft(alchemy) DC for an item that should be one of the mainstays of non-magical healing. For 50 gp that doesn’t jump out as incredibly amazing but in a campaign with no divine healing these can be used as immediate life-savers. The trick is to actually be able to make these yourself to save money.

The Midnight Campaign Setting had salves, poultices and oils attached to a feat for a system of natural healing based on herbalism.

Vril Cream (Sunken Empires, p.31)
This paste is found in small, opaque jars that are frequently covered in strange, dimly lit runes. When the single application within is applied, you instantly mend open wounds, healing 2d8+2 damage. (Only intelligent humanoid targets are affected.) The target can resist (Fortitutde DC 15 negates). If you accept the healing or fail the save, you suffer a -4 penalty to Will saves to resist spells and effects with the charm descriptor. This effect lasts for 24 hours. Cost: 200 gp; 1/2 lb; Craft DC: 20

There are also Alchemical Elixirs and Medical Compounds in Experts 3.5.

Aqua Vitae (DC 20; 7 gp/21 gp; 1 day; ingest): Drinking this sweet elixir will cure 1d4 points of damage.

Aqua Vitae Magnus (DC 25; 15 gp/45 gp; 2 days; ingest): This potent elixir cures 1d8 points of damage.

Aqua Vitae Maximus (DC 30; 40 gp/120 gp; 3 days; ingest): This powerful alchemical elixir cures 1d8 points of damage, plus 1 point per rank in Craft (Alchemy) or Profession (Alchemist) held by the creator.

Healing Draught (DC 19; 17 gp/50 gp; 1 day; ingest): This medicinal drink will immediately heal 2d4 hit points of damage.


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Positive Energy Elementals to cuddle up to?


Personally would love it, since I love nature campaigns and would be really happy to see actual herbal gathering rules as well as trap rules. The main issue is that all you really need is anyone with access to the heal spells, and it doesn't really matter. All it takes are spell slots, and not even that with wands/scrolls/whatever, whereas any herbal based stuff would require taking time out of the adventuring day to hunt down herbs.

The alchemist examples are nice, but nowhere near what they should be. I love alchemy (Chemical Engineering Major), but spells/magic items still outpace them. And likely any implemented system would have the same or lower values as part of realism.

As for HP being an abstract representation of Luck, Resilience, and then Meat, I'd argue there are better ways to represent luck, such as actual luck bonuses, such as Jin-never mind. As for Resilience/armor, isn't that what AC is supposed to represent?


Gark the Goblin wrote:
I'm definitely hoping Starfinder has good rules for nonmagical healers, to port into Pathfinder. We'll see . . .

Medical sprays, ampoule shots, whacky drugs, living bandages, symbiotic aliens, nano machine nurses, submersion tanks.

Can't wait for it!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Saithor wrote:

Personally would love it, since I love nature campaigns and would be really happy to see actual herbal gathering rules as well as trap rules. The main issue is that all you really need is anyone with access to the heal spells, and it doesn't really matter. All it takes are spell slots, and not even that with wands/scrolls/whatever, whereas any herbal based stuff would require taking time out of the adventuring day to hunt down herbs.

The alchemist examples are nice, but nowhere near what they should be. I love alchemy (Chemical Engineering Major), but spells/magic items still outpace them. And likely any implemented system would have the same or lower values as part of realism.

As for HP being an abstract representation of Luck, Resilience, and then Meat, I'd argue there are better ways to represent luck, such as actual luck bonuses, such as Jin-never mind. As for Resilience/armor, isn't that what AC is supposed to represent?

For what it's worth, in 3.5 (Midnight Campaign Setting) they actually had herbalism-based healing items that you could craft. Unfortunately the rules weren't the best-written, and the salves simply mimicked cure spells. I've been working on magical herbalism and alchemical healing items on my own, but nothing is anywhere near where I'd like to see it in public.


Cydeth wrote:
Saithor wrote:

Personally would love it, since I love nature campaigns and would be really happy to see actual herbal gathering rules as well as trap rules. The main issue is that all you really need is anyone with access to the heal spells, and it doesn't really matter. All it takes are spell slots, and not even that with wands/scrolls/whatever, whereas any herbal based stuff would require taking time out of the adventuring day to hunt down herbs.

The alchemist examples are nice, but nowhere near what they should be. I love alchemy (Chemical Engineering Major), but spells/magic items still outpace them. And likely any implemented system would have the same or lower values as part of realism.

As for HP being an abstract representation of Luck, Resilience, and then Meat, I'd argue there are better ways to represent luck, such as actual luck bonuses, such as Jin-never mind. As for Resilience/armor, isn't that what AC is supposed to represent?

For what it's worth, in 3.5 (Midnight Campaign Setting) they actually had herbalism-based healing items that you could craft. Unfortunately the rules weren't the best-written, and the salves simply mimicked cure spells. I've been working on magical herbalism and alchemical healing items on my own, but nothing is anywhere near where I'd like to see it in public.

Hmm, could you PM them? I'd be interested in taking a look.

Really I feel that herbalist style stuff can be used for a lot of utility beyond cure and heal. Minor buffs (not numerical ones, but others) would be something nice and unique.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
Scythia wrote:
Because niche protection matters.
Except for rogues ;)

That was part of the joke (with the parenthetical included). :P

Liberty's Edge

TOZ wrote:
JPSTOD wrote:
If there was instantaneous NonMagical healing..there would be no need for Clerics
Clerics are so much more than bandaid boxes.

What are they without Divine Healing?

Fighters :)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Saithor wrote:


Hmm, could you PM them? I'd be interested in taking a look.

Really I feel that herbalist style stuff can be used for a lot of utility beyond cure and heal. Minor buffs (not numerical ones, but others) would be something nice and unique.

I won't PM my personal stuff (it's a half-written, unfinished mess from when I got distracted by publishing my novel and such), but I'll summarize the Midnight stuff in a PM, if you want?

Liberty's Edge

JPSTOD wrote:
TOZ wrote:
JPSTOD wrote:
If there was instantaneous NonMagical healing..there would be no need for Clerics
Clerics are so much more than bandaid boxes.

What are they without Divine Healing?

Fighters :)

I'd be interested to know what your view of other base classes is. Is a rogue without trapfinding also a fighter? What about a druid without their animal companion? Is fighter the default class on which all others are variations?


Gark the Goblin wrote:
JPSTOD wrote:
TOZ wrote:
JPSTOD wrote:
If there was instantaneous NonMagical healing..there would be no need for Clerics
Clerics are so much more than bandaid boxes.

What are they without Divine Healing?

Fighters :)
I'd be interested to know what your view of other base classes is. Is a rogue without trapfinding also a fighter? What about a druid without their animal companion? Is fighter the default class on which all others are variations?

Joke is more that the fighter is so close to a vanilla class that you can get that it's essentially any other class without their special abilities. Extra feats and slight scaling to-hit and damage has and always will be some of the blandest class mechanics ever.

Cydeth wrote:
Saithor wrote:


Hmm, could you PM them? I'd be interested in taking a look.

Really I feel that herbalist style stuff can be used for a lot of utility beyond cure and heal. Minor buffs (not numerical ones, but others) would be something nice and unique.

I won't PM my personal stuff (it's a half-written, unfinished mess from when I got distracted by publishing my novel and such), but I'll summarize the Midnight stuff in a PM, if you want?

Sure, thanks!

Wayfinders

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JPSTOD wrote:
TOZ wrote:
JPSTOD wrote:
If there was instantaneous NonMagical healing..there would be no need for Clerics
Clerics are so much more than bandaid boxes.

What are they without Divine Healing?

Fighters :)

Ninth-Level spellcasters with ok BAB and HD, access to an incredibly versatile list of spells once you account for Domain Spells, cool superpowers based on which God you worship and having none of this negatively impacted by what armour you wear.

That's just what you can do without even thinking about Channelling or Spontaneous Cure Spells.

Slightly more impressive than a Fighter.

Shadow Lodge

JPSTOD wrote:

What are they without Divine Healing?

Fighters :)

That's clearly incorrect. Clerics aren't useless in combat.


zainale wrote:
that is based on herbs. like "potions" and poultices that heal hp. having just played a "healer". and instead of paying for things i need i had to spend so much on healing wands and potions that costs so much. why doesn't pathfinder have a cheaper or some what less effective way to heal?

There is. As has been posted it is already listed in the Heal skill.

The point with Magic being Magic is the concept that it does things that mundane means either cannot or cannot so quickly/simply.

Given the origins and general concept of Fantasy RPG's along with the assumption of technologies ability to heal in seconds not being possible in that framework that is why we don't have significant non magical healing, IMO.

Even in the real world today our medical strides are titanic compared to 150 years ago but we don't have instantaneous healing ala Cure spells. To give instant healing to non magical sources would be sort of inconsistent with the assumption of the settings tech level.

Liberty's Edge

Nitro~Nina wrote:
JPSTOD wrote:
TOZ wrote:
JPSTOD wrote:
If there was instantaneous NonMagical healing..there would be no need for Clerics
Clerics are so much more than bandaid boxes.

What are they without Divine Healing?

Fighters :)

Ninth-Level spellcasters with ok BAB and HD, access to an incredibly versatile list of spells once you account for Domain Spells, cool superpowers based on which God you worship and having none of this negatively impacted by what armour you wear.

That's just what you can do without even thinking about Channelling or Spontaneous Cure Spells.

Slightly more impressive than a Fighter.

What are without their Divine Abilities?


A multiclassed Warrior/Expert.

What's your point?

Your flippant response earlier asked "What are Clerics without healing" the answer is "Really good, because healing is the tiniest most useless thing they can do".

A Cleric without healing is not in any way equivalent to a Cleric without any class features whatsoever.

Liberty's Edge

9th Level Fighter
+9/+4 +6 +3 +3
A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).
9th Level Cleric
+6/+1 +6 +3 +6
Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deities.

So Based on these "Core" class features Alone...
How many would take cleric over fighter if they did not have Divine Abilities?

Wayfinders

JPSTOD wrote:
Nitro~Nina wrote:
JPSTOD wrote:
TOZ wrote:
JPSTOD wrote:
If there was instantaneous NonMagical healing..there would be no need for Clerics
Clerics are so much more than bandaid boxes.

What are they without Divine Healing?

Fighters :)

Ninth-Level spellcasters with ok BAB and HD, access to an incredibly versatile list of spells once you account for Domain Spells, cool superpowers based on which God you worship and having none of this negatively impacted by what armour you wear.

That's just what you can do without even thinking about Channelling or Spontaneous Cure Spells.

Slightly more impressive than a Fighter.

What are without their Divine Abilities?

A commoner, I guess. But a non-magic healer class wouldn't make the Cleric's divine abilities redundant. It'd provide a good way to get healing without divine magic, while still leaving Clerics the niche of everything else they can pull off.


JPSTOD wrote:

9th Level Fighter

+9/+4 +6 +3 +3
A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).
9th Level Cleric
+6/+1 +6 +3 +6
Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deities.

So Based on these "Core" class features Alone...
How many would take cleric over fighter if they did not have Divine Abilities?

Seriously, what the f$%* is the point of this line of questioning? It's entirely irrelevant to any aspect of this discussion.


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Gilfalas wrote:
The point with Magic being Magic is the concept that it does things that mundane means either cannot or cannot so quickly/simply.

This wouldn't bother me half so much if there was anything in PF that magic couldn't do better than mundane.

Liberty's Edge

Sundakan wrote:
JPSTOD wrote:

9th Level Fighter

+9/+4 +6 +3 +3
A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).
9th Level Cleric
+6/+1 +6 +3 +6
Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deities.

So Based on these "Core" class features Alone...
How many would take cleric over fighter if they did not have Divine Abilities?

Seriously, what the f#~# is the point of this line of questioning? It's entirely irrelevant to any aspect of this discussion.

Then why people keep responding...

Each Class has "Abilities" which make them important in the Game...

My response stands if Clerics had no Divine Abilities they are merely Fighters...Only


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But you're the only person talking about Clerics with no abilities. As if it were some grand revelation that classes with no abilities aren't very good, and are relegated to NPC class status.

I'm responding because I'm trying to suss out if you have some purpose for posting it. Something that may add to the conversation.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you have something worthwhile to say, in other words. Am I wrong?

Shadow Lodge

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JPSTOD wrote:

Then why people keep responding...

Each Class has "Abilities" which make them important in the Game...

My response stands if Clerics had no Divine Abilities they are merely Fighters...Only

Because we're trying to understand why you are not making any sense.

And you originally said something completely different.

Divine Healing =/= Divine Abilities


zainale wrote:
why hasn't any creative wizard figured a way to open a portal to the plane of positive energy and a way to bottle that energy for healing uses later.

Some of them have, even before the Healer's Handbook comes out with Arcane Physician, and have even figured out ways to do it without resorting to Infernal Healing. That's what the Spell Sage archetype is for. Not sure whether Spell Sage Wizard with Brew Potion could put Bard, Cleric, or Druid spells of up to 3rd level into Potions, as well as create Scrolls of these and higher level spells -- the problem is that they don't actually "know" these spells, which are not on their list, and the Magic Item Creation rules for both say that you must know the spell you are making a Potion or Scroll of, so I am inclined to say no (would be a pretty powerful Scribe Scroll/Brew Potion build if the answer was yes, and you even get Scribe Scroll for free).


UnArcaneElection wrote:
zainale wrote:
why hasn't any creative wizard figured a way to open a portal to the plane of positive energy and a way to bottle that energy for healing uses later.

Some of them have, even before the Healer's Handbook comes out with Arcane Physician, and have even figured out ways to do it without resorting to Infernal Healing. That's what the Spell Sage archetype is for. Not sure whether Spell Sage Wizard with Brew Potion could put Bard, Cleric, or Druid spells of up to 3rd level into Potions, as well as create Scrolls of these and higher level spells -- the problem is that they don't actually "know" these spells, which are not on their list, and the Magic Item Creation rules for both say that you must know the spell you are making a Potion or Scroll of, so I am inclined to say no (would be a pretty powerful Scribe Scroll/Brew Potion build if the answer was yes, and you even get Scribe Scroll for free).

Item construction rules say that the spell requirement can be circumvented if it is provided by other sources, like SLAs, magic items and an assisting spellcaster.

The Spell Sage can cast these spells so he can create items, but then he would need UMD to use them because he indeed does not have them on his list.

Liberty's Edge

So what I'm hearing is, NPC Class Expert (Trait: Sacred Touch & Alchemical Intuition) with high ranks in Heal & Craft: Alchemy to create the flavor of a non-magical based healers. Picture the skill list as such

Appraise
Craft:Alchemy
Diplomacy
Heal
Knowledge [Nature]
Linguistics
Perception
Profession[Herbalist]
Sense Motive
Survival

Skills 6 + int Mod per level

Could see a 1st level human taking Iron Will & Self-Sufficient

with the right feats after that the NPC might never be as powerful as a Bard or Cleric when it comes to healing but would be the boon for a town in need of healing that can't afford magical healing. (A farmer might earn a gold a week so a spending 10 weeks of pay money on someone that can cast Cure light wounds once, is certainly not going to go well for them.)


Castilonium wrote:
If you're fine with universally acclaimed 3pp, try the Medic from Dreamscarred Press. It's a nonmagical Path of War initiator that can do everything an in-combat healer needs to do, quickly and efficiently. Here are the playtest documents if you want to read it before you buy the pdf.

I love the medic. Maneuver using healer is decent.

Wayfinders

Starbuck_II wrote:
Castilonium wrote:
If you're fine with universally acclaimed 3pp, try the Medic from Dreamscarred Press. It's a nonmagical Path of War initiator that can do everything an in-combat healer needs to do, quickly and efficiently. Here are the playtest documents if you want to read it before you buy the pdf.
I love the medic. Maneuver using healer is decent.

Gosh, I love that class. Mind you, I'd also like a non-magic version that can heal well OUT of combat, but it's pretty dang great for what it is!


Entryhazard wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
zainale wrote:
why hasn't any creative wizard figured a way to open a portal to the plane of positive energy and a way to bottle that energy for healing uses later.

Some of them have, even before the Healer's Handbook comes out with Arcane Physician, and have even figured out ways to do it without resorting to Infernal Healing. That's what the Spell Sage archetype is for. Not sure whether Spell Sage Wizard with Brew Potion could put Bard, Cleric, or Druid spells of up to 3rd level into Potions, as well as create Scrolls of these and higher level spells -- the problem is that they don't actually "know" these spells, which are not on their list, and the Magic Item Creation rules for both say that you must know the spell you are making a Potion or Scroll of, so I am inclined to say no (would be a pretty powerful Scribe Scroll/Brew Potion build if the answer was yes, and you even get Scribe Scroll for free).

Item construction rules say that the spell requirement can be circumvented if it is provided by other sources, like SLAs, magic items and an assisting spellcaster.

The Spell Sage can cast these spells so he can create items, but then he would need UMD to use them because he indeed does not have them on his list.

True, except:

{. . .}

In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.
{. . .}

This definitely includes Potions and Scrolls. So then the question becomes whether being able to use a class ability that isn't spellcasting but modulates spellcasting to produce spells that you don't actually have on your list or know counts as meeting the prerequisites. I lean in favor of no.


Arbane the Terrible wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Selective realism, really. Because of the HP mechanic, adventurers can survive all sorts of things that should probably be fatal, but we selectively apply the "realism" filter by saying that these sorts of wounds are slow to heal on their own.
Keeping in mind that the "slow" healing of 3eD&D/PF "realism" is still extremely fast compared to real realism.
Also, Real Realism in healing often includes variations on the phrase 'you'll never have full use of [body part] again, I'm afraid'. (Which is why I'm generally not a huge fan of games that try to do 'realistic' wounds - I'd rather not have my character face-down in a pool of their own blood on round one due to a bad roll, thanks.)

Yeah. Real realism sucks. I wish I could get some Clerical healing in real life.


I really do wish their was a strong expansion of Craft Alchemy stuff. Making non magical healing stuff, and then improving all the current alchemical stuff, into things usuable at higher levels.
While also actually changing all their prices to be mroe reasonable things... They all cost too much to really be used much.
and honestly theyr'e a cool tool to base an idea off of.

I honestly still wish there was an alchemist who didn't have extracts but instead had a alchemical creation pool, and improved versions of things. Effectively the same thing, but with less of a buff stint and more of a random offensive tool stint.
but..
I am just too biased. I love Final Fantasy D20's Chemist ,and the alchemical items they have, in addition to pathfinder's alchemical items.
-------

but on al ess tangent topic.
It really would make sense for non magical healing to be created, with how rare-but not insanely rare, areas of non magic are, more so these days.
Granted i've never looked at that whole subset of books but the technologyh place you'd think would have some given the non magic nature of spots there.


Non-magical healing in Pathfinder is already faster than real world healing.

Anything that made it faster still would basically be magic by another name. "No, it's not a potion of cure light wounds. It's an alchemical concoction of light wound curing. Completely different!"

If you want a game with less dependence on healing magic, just say not all damage needs to be healed. For example, a simple rule could be:

"Any damage you take that doesn't take you below a third of your maximum hit points is strain damage, not physical damage. Strain damage heals at a rate of one hit point per character level per minute of rest."


Matthew Downie wrote:
Non-magical healing in Pathfinder is already faster than real world healing.

Is it? That rather assumes hit point attrition equates to significant physical injury rather than generally being trivial, and significant physical injury would probably be expected to affect the ability of people to perform actions. Bruises, cuts that are small enough to close themselves without more than a bandage, and mental and physical exhaustion - those don't take a huge amount of time to heal. A broken arm certainly would, but then if I'm walking around with a broken arm I don't expect to swing use a two-handed axe very well or spend much time climbing, and loss of hit points certainly doesn't have that result.


Bluenose wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
Non-magical healing in Pathfinder is already faster than real world healing.
Is it? That rather assumes hit point attrition equates to significant physical injury rather than generally being trivial, and significant physical injury would probably be expected to affect the ability of people to perform actions. Bruises, cuts that are small enough to close themselves without more than a bandage, and mental and physical exhaustion - those don't take a huge amount of time to heal. A broken arm certainly would, but then if I'm walking around with a broken arm I don't expect to swing use a two-handed axe very well or spend much time climbing, and loss of hit points certainly doesn't have that result.

The counterpoint to this is that it's hard to think of any injury sustained by e.g. falling in lava to be trivial.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:

True, except:

{. . .}

In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.
{. . .}
This definitely includes Potions and Scrolls. So then the question becomes whether being able to use a class ability that isn't spellcasting but modulates spellcasting to produce spells that you don't actually have on your list or know counts as meeting the prerequisites. I lean in favor of no.

That line says that for creating those kinds of magic items you can't avoid to fulfill the spell requisite by increasing the craft DC by 5, but I was referring to another line that specifies that in order to fulfill a spell requirement you're not limited to using your own spell slots:

Requirements: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item's caster level.

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.

It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.

And anyway the Spell Study class feature of the Spell Sage says the he is effectively casting the spell.

So the Spell Sage can create those items but can't use them without UMD.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Anything that made it faster still would basically be magic by another name. "No, it's not a potion of cure light wounds. It's an alchemical concoction of light wound curing. Completely different!"

Or it's a bandage coupled with the 'magic' of tlc and the body's own healing potential.

Quote:

If you want a game with less dependence on healing magic, just say not all damage needs to be healed. For example, a simple rule could be:

"Any damage you take that doesn't take you below a third of your maximum hit points is strain damage, not physical damage. Strain damage heals at a rate of one hit point per character level per minute of rest."

This makes environmental damage [such as lava or falling damage] far more dangerous [which is fine if that's your goal rather than an unintended side effect]


kyrt-ryder wrote:
This makes environmental damage [such as lava or falling damage] far more dangerous [which is fine if that's your goal rather than an unintended side effect]

How so?

If we're going by the simple rule I described, you can walk through lava, lose half your hit points, then have a five minute rest and get completely better.

If we say the rule applies only to combat damage and environmental damage is always 'real' damage that takes days to heal, then lava remains exactly the same amount of threat it is in the current game (assuming the party still has access to magical healing).


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
Anything that made it faster still would basically be magic by another name. "No, it's not a potion of cure light wounds. It's an alchemical concoction of light wound curing. Completely different!"

Or it's a bandage coupled with the 'magic' of tlc and the body's own healing potential.

Quote:

If you want a game with less dependence on healing magic, just say not all damage needs to be healed. For example, a simple rule could be:

"Any damage you take that doesn't take you below a third of your maximum hit points is strain damage, not physical damage. Strain damage heals at a rate of one hit point per character level per minute of rest."

This makes environmental damage [such as lava or falling damage] far more dangerous [which is fine if that's your goal rather than an unintended side effect]

Personally I don't see much issue with putting percentage caps by total hitpoints between encounters, with higher percentages for non magic users(to represent the strain of magic use on the users internal healing mechanisms) on non-magical healing.


Matthew Downie wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
This makes environmental damage [such as lava or falling damage] far more dangerous [which is fine if that's your goal rather than an unintended side effect]

How so?

If we're going by the simple rule I described, you can walk through lava, lose half your hit points, then have a five minute rest and get completely better.

If we say the rule applies only to combat damage and environmental damage is always 'real' damage that takes days to heal, then lava remains exactly the same amount of threat it is in the current game (assuming the party still has access to magical healing).

I had assumed that either the first interpretation was your intention or that the second would be accompanied by scarce or non-existent healing items.

My mistake.


Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Scythia wrote:

Because niche protection matters (if we're talking about magic classes).

Just look at the kind of fits people have at arcane healing magic (unless it's on a Bard or Witch).

I guess it's just a matter of consistency (except when consistency didn't matter).

In other words: Mundane healing would be a nice thing and nice things are for casters.

No, there *IS* mundane healing.


Ventnor wrote:
JPSTOD wrote:
If there was instantaneous NonMagical healing..there would be no need for Clerics
And we need to force people to play clerics because...

Or paladins or rangers or warpreists or inquisitors or bards or druids or shamans or oracles or skalds or alchemists or .....


DrDeth wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Scythia wrote:

Because niche protection matters (if we're talking about magic classes).

Just look at the kind of fits people have at arcane healing magic (unless it's on a Bard or Witch).

I guess it's just a matter of consistency (except when consistency didn't matter).

In other words: Mundane healing would be a nice thing and nice things are for casters.
No, there *IS* mundane healing.

Sorry, I should have changed the phrasing to "Mundane healing that doesn't completely suck would be a nice thing and nice things are for casters"

Doesn't roll off the tongue as well though if you ask me.

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