Selective realism, really. Because of the HP mechanic, adventurers can survive all sorts of things that should probably be fatal, but we selectively apply the "realism" filter by saying that these sorts of wounds are slow to heal on their own.
Keeping in mind that the "slow" healing of 3eD&D/PF "realism" is still extremely fast compared to real realism.
If there was instantaneous NonMagical healing..there would be no need for Clerics
And we need to force people to play clerics because...
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Selective realism, really. Because of the HP mechanic, adventurers can survive all sorts of things that should probably be fatal, but we selectively apply the "realism" filter by saying that these sorts of wounds are slow to heal on their own.Which is bizarre, given that it's not supposed to be a 'real' injury until you hit zero HP.
That is wrong.
What Hit Points Represent: Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.
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Positive Energy Elementals to cuddle up to?
Personally would love it, since I love nature campaigns and would be really happy to see actual herbal gathering rules as well as trap rules. The main issue is that all you really need is anyone with access to the heal spells, and it doesn't really matter. All it takes are spell slots, and not even that with wands/scrolls/whatever, whereas any herbal based stuff would require taking time out of the adventuring day to hunt down herbs.
The alchemist examples are nice, but nowhere near what they should be. I love alchemy (Chemical Engineering Major), but spells/magic items still outpace them. And likely any implemented system would have the same or lower values as part of realism.
As for HP being an abstract representation of Luck, Resilience, and then Meat, I'd argue there are better ways to represent luck, such as actual luck bonuses, such as Jin-never mind. As for Resilience/armor, isn't that what AC is supposed to represent?
I'm definitely hoping Starfinder has good rules for nonmagical healers, to port into Pathfinder. We'll see . . .
Medical sprays, ampoule shots, whacky drugs, living bandages, symbiotic aliens, nano machine nurses, submersion tanks.
Can't wait for it!
Personally would love it, since I love nature campaigns and would be really happy to see actual herbal gathering rules as well as trap rules. The main issue is that all you really need is anyone with access to the heal spells, and it doesn't really matter. All it takes are spell slots, and not even that with wands/scrolls/whatever, whereas any herbal based stuff would require taking time out of the adventuring day to hunt down herbs.
The alchemist examples are nice, but nowhere near what they should be. I love alchemy (Chemical Engineering Major), but spells/magic items still outpace them. And likely any implemented system would have the same or lower values as part of realism.
As for HP being an abstract representation of Luck, Resilience, and then Meat, I'd argue there are better ways to represent luck, such as actual luck bonuses, such as Jin-never mind. As for Resilience/armor, isn't that what AC is supposed to represent?
For what it's worth, in 3.5 (Midnight Campaign Setting) they actually had herbalism-based healing items that you could craft. Unfortunately the rules weren't the best-written, and the salves simply mimicked cure spells. I've been working on magical herbalism and alchemical healing items on my own, but nothing is anywhere near where I'd like to see it in public.
For what it's worth, in 3.5 (Midnight Campaign Setting) they actually had herbalism-based healing items that you could craft. Unfortunately the rules weren't the best-written, and the salves simply mimicked cure spells. I've been working on magical herbalism and alchemical healing items on my own, but nothing is anywhere near where I'd like to see it in public.Personally would love it, since I love nature campaigns and would be really happy to see actual herbal gathering rules as well as trap rules. The main issue is that all you really need is anyone with access to the heal spells, and it doesn't really matter. All it takes are spell slots, and not even that with wands/scrolls/whatever, whereas any herbal based stuff would require taking time out of the adventuring day to hunt down herbs.
The alchemist examples are nice, but nowhere near what they should be. I love alchemy (Chemical Engineering Major), but spells/magic items still outpace them. And likely any implemented system would have the same or lower values as part of realism.
As for HP being an abstract representation of Luck, Resilience, and then Meat, I'd argue there are better ways to represent luck, such as actual luck bonuses, such as Jin-never mind. As for Resilience/armor, isn't that what AC is supposed to represent?
Hmm, could you PM them? I'd be interested in taking a look.
Really I feel that herbalist style stuff can be used for a lot of utility beyond cure and heal. Minor buffs (not numerical ones, but others) would be something nice and unique.
Because niche protection matters.Except for rogues ;)
That was part of the joke (with the parenthetical included). :P
Hmm, could you PM them? I'd be interested in taking a look.
Really I feel that herbalist style stuff can be used for a lot of utility beyond cure and heal. Minor buffs (not numerical ones, but others) would be something nice and unique.
I won't PM my personal stuff (it's a half-written, unfinished mess from when I got distracted by publishing my novel and such), but I'll summarize the Midnight stuff in a PM, if you want?
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If there was instantaneous NonMagical healing..there would be no need for ClericsClerics are so much more than bandaid boxes.What are they without Divine Healing?
Fighters :)
I'd be interested to know what your view of other base classes is. Is a rogue without trapfinding also a fighter? What about a druid without their animal companion? Is fighter the default class on which all others are variations?
I'd be interested to know what your view of other base classes is. Is a rogue without trapfinding also a fighter? What about a druid without their animal companion? Is fighter the default class on which all others are variations?If there was instantaneous NonMagical healing..there would be no need for ClericsClerics are so much more than bandaid boxes.What are they without Divine Healing?
Fighters :)
Joke is more that the fighter is so close to a vanilla class that you can get that it's essentially any other class without their special abilities. Extra feats and slight scaling to-hit and damage has and always will be some of the blandest class mechanics ever.
I won't PM my personal stuff (it's a half-written, unfinished mess from when I got distracted by publishing my novel and such), but I'll summarize the Midnight stuff in a PM, if you want?
Hmm, could you PM them? I'd be interested in taking a look.
Really I feel that herbalist style stuff can be used for a lot of utility beyond cure and heal. Minor buffs (not numerical ones, but others) would be something nice and unique.
Sure, thanks!
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If there was instantaneous NonMagical healing..there would be no need for ClericsClerics are so much more than bandaid boxes.What are they without Divine Healing?
Fighters :)
Ninth-Level spellcasters with ok BAB and HD, access to an incredibly versatile list of spells once you account for Domain Spells, cool superpowers based on which God you worship and having none of this negatively impacted by what armour you wear.
That's just what you can do without even thinking about Channelling or Spontaneous Cure Spells.
Slightly more impressive than a Fighter.
that is based on herbs. like "potions" and poultices that heal hp. having just played a "healer". and instead of paying for things i need i had to spend so much on healing wands and potions that costs so much. why doesn't pathfinder have a cheaper or some what less effective way to heal?
There is. As has been posted it is already listed in the Heal skill.
The point with Magic being Magic is the concept that it does things that mundane means either cannot or cannot so quickly/simply.
Given the origins and general concept of Fantasy RPG's along with the assumption of technologies ability to heal in seconds not being possible in that framework that is why we don't have significant non magical healing, IMO.
Even in the real world today our medical strides are titanic compared to 150 years ago but we don't have instantaneous healing ala Cure spells. To give instant healing to non magical sources would be sort of inconsistent with the assumption of the settings tech level.
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If there was instantaneous NonMagical healing..there would be no need for ClericsClerics are so much more than bandaid boxes.What are they without Divine Healing?
Fighters :)
Ninth-Level spellcasters with ok BAB and HD, access to an incredibly versatile list of spells once you account for Domain Spells, cool superpowers based on which God you worship and having none of this negatively impacted by what armour you wear.
That's just what you can do without even thinking about Channelling or Spontaneous Cure Spells.
Slightly more impressive than a Fighter.
What are without their Divine Abilities?
A multiclassed Warrior/Expert.
What's your point?
Your flippant response earlier asked "What are Clerics without healing" the answer is "Really good, because healing is the tiniest most useless thing they can do".
A Cleric without healing is not in any way equivalent to a Cleric without any class features whatsoever.
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9th Level Fighter
+9/+4 +6 +3 +3
A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).
9th Level Cleric
+6/+1 +6 +3 +6
Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deities.
So Based on these "Core" class features Alone...
How many would take cleric over fighter if they did not have Divine Abilities?
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If there was instantaneous NonMagical healing..there would be no need for ClericsClerics are so much more than bandaid boxes.What are they without Divine Healing?
Fighters :)
Ninth-Level spellcasters with ok BAB and HD, access to an incredibly versatile list of spells once you account for Domain Spells, cool superpowers based on which God you worship and having none of this negatively impacted by what armour you wear.
That's just what you can do without even thinking about Channelling or Spontaneous Cure Spells.
Slightly more impressive than a Fighter.
What are without their Divine Abilities?
A commoner, I guess. But a non-magic healer class wouldn't make the Cleric's divine abilities redundant. It'd provide a good way to get healing without divine magic, while still leaving Clerics the niche of everything else they can pull off.
9th Level Fighter
+9/+4 +6 +3 +3
A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).
9th Level Cleric
+6/+1 +6 +3 +6
Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deities.So Based on these "Core" class features Alone...
How many would take cleric over fighter if they did not have Divine Abilities?
Seriously, what the f*!& is the point of this line of questioning? It's entirely irrelevant to any aspect of this discussion.
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Seriously, what the f#~# is the point of this line of questioning? It's entirely irrelevant to any aspect of this discussion.9th Level Fighter
+9/+4 +6 +3 +3
A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).
9th Level Cleric
+6/+1 +6 +3 +6
Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deities.So Based on these "Core" class features Alone...
How many would take cleric over fighter if they did not have Divine Abilities?
Then why people keep responding...
Each Class has "Abilities" which make them important in the Game...My response stands if Clerics had no Divine Abilities they are merely Fighters...Only
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But you're the only person talking about Clerics with no abilities. As if it were some grand revelation that classes with no abilities aren't very good, and are relegated to NPC class status.
I'm responding because I'm trying to suss out if you have some purpose for posting it. Something that may add to the conversation.
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you have something worthwhile to say, in other words. Am I wrong?
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Then why people keep responding...
Each Class has "Abilities" which make them important in the Game...My response stands if Clerics had no Divine Abilities they are merely Fighters...Only
Because we're trying to understand why you are not making any sense.
And you originally said something completely different.
Divine Healing =/= Divine Abilities
why hasn't any creative wizard figured a way to open a portal to the plane of positive energy and a way to bottle that energy for healing uses later.
Some of them have, even before the Healer's Handbook comes out with Arcane Physician, and have even figured out ways to do it without resorting to Infernal Healing. That's what the Spell Sage archetype is for. Not sure whether Spell Sage Wizard with Brew Potion could put Bard, Cleric, or Druid spells of up to 3rd level into Potions, as well as create Scrolls of these and higher level spells -- the problem is that they don't actually "know" these spells, which are not on their list, and the Magic Item Creation rules for both say that you must know the spell you are making a Potion or Scroll of, so I am inclined to say no (would be a pretty powerful Scribe Scroll/Brew Potion build if the answer was yes, and you even get Scribe Scroll for free).
why hasn't any creative wizard figured a way to open a portal to the plane of positive energy and a way to bottle that energy for healing uses later.Some of them have, even before the Healer's Handbook comes out with Arcane Physician, and have even figured out ways to do it without resorting to Infernal Healing. That's what the Spell Sage archetype is for. Not sure whether Spell Sage Wizard with Brew Potion could put Bard, Cleric, or Druid spells of up to 3rd level into Potions, as well as create Scrolls of these and higher level spells -- the problem is that they don't actually "know" these spells, which are not on their list, and the Magic Item Creation rules for both say that you must know the spell you are making a Potion or Scroll of, so I am inclined to say no (would be a pretty powerful Scribe Scroll/Brew Potion build if the answer was yes, and you even get Scribe Scroll for free).
Item construction rules say that the spell requirement can be circumvented if it is provided by other sources, like SLAs, magic items and an assisting spellcaster.
The Spell Sage can cast these spells so he can create items, but then he would need UMD to use them because he indeed does not have them on his list.
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So what I'm hearing is, NPC Class Expert (Trait: Sacred Touch & Alchemical Intuition) with high ranks in Heal & Craft: Alchemy to create the flavor of a non-magical based healers. Picture the skill list as such
Appraise
Craft:Alchemy
Diplomacy
Heal
Knowledge [Nature]
Linguistics
Perception
Profession[Herbalist]
Sense Motive
Survival
Skills 6 + int Mod per level
Could see a 1st level human taking Iron Will & Self-Sufficient
with the right feats after that the NPC might never be as powerful as a Bard or Cleric when it comes to healing but would be the boon for a town in need of healing that can't afford magical healing. (A farmer might earn a gold a week so a spending 10 weeks of pay money on someone that can cast Cure light wounds once, is certainly not going to go well for them.)
If you're fine with universally acclaimed 3pp, try the Medic from Dreamscarred Press. It's a nonmagical Path of War initiator that can do everything an in-combat healer needs to do, quickly and efficiently. Here are the playtest documents if you want to read it before you buy the pdf.
I love the medic. Maneuver using healer is decent.
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If you're fine with universally acclaimed 3pp, try the Medic from Dreamscarred Press. It's a nonmagical Path of War initiator that can do everything an in-combat healer needs to do, quickly and efficiently. Here are the playtest documents if you want to read it before you buy the pdf.I love the medic. Maneuver using healer is decent.
Gosh, I love that class. Mind you, I'd also like a non-magic version that can heal well OUT of combat, but it's pretty dang great for what it is!
why hasn't any creative wizard figured a way to open a portal to the plane of positive energy and a way to bottle that energy for healing uses later.Some of them have, even before the Healer's Handbook comes out with Arcane Physician, and have even figured out ways to do it without resorting to Infernal Healing. That's what the Spell Sage archetype is for. Not sure whether Spell Sage Wizard with Brew Potion could put Bard, Cleric, or Druid spells of up to 3rd level into Potions, as well as create Scrolls of these and higher level spells -- the problem is that they don't actually "know" these spells, which are not on their list, and the Magic Item Creation rules for both say that you must know the spell you are making a Potion or Scroll of, so I am inclined to say no (would be a pretty powerful Scribe Scroll/Brew Potion build if the answer was yes, and you even get Scribe Scroll for free).
Item construction rules say that the spell requirement can be circumvented if it is provided by other sources, like SLAs, magic items and an assisting spellcaster.
The Spell Sage can cast these spells so he can create items, but then he would need UMD to use them because he indeed does not have them on his list.
True, except:
{. . .}
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.
{. . .}
This definitely includes Potions and Scrolls. So then the question becomes whether being able to use a class ability that isn't spellcasting but modulates spellcasting to produce spells that you don't actually have on your list or know counts as meeting the prerequisites. I lean in favor of no.
Non-magical healing in Pathfinder is already faster than real world healing.
Anything that made it faster still would basically be magic by another name. "No, it's not a potion of cure light wounds. It's an alchemical concoction of light wound curing. Completely different!"
If you want a game with less dependence on healing magic, just say not all damage needs to be healed. For example, a simple rule could be:
"Any damage you take that doesn't take you below a third of your maximum hit points is strain damage, not physical damage. Strain damage heals at a rate of one hit point per character level per minute of rest."
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True, except:
This definitely includes Potions and Scrolls. So then the question becomes whether being able to use a class ability that isn't spellcasting but modulates spellcasting to produce spells that you don't actually have on your list or know counts as meeting the prerequisites. I lean in favor of no.{. . .}
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.
{. . .}
That line says that for creating those kinds of magic items you can't avoid to fulfill the spell requisite by increasing the craft DC by 5, but I was referring to another line that specifies that in order to fulfill a spell requirement you're not limited to using your own spell slots:
Requirements: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item's caster level.
A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.
And anyway the Spell Study class feature of the Spell Sage says the he is effectively casting the spell.
So the Spell Sage can create those items but can't use them without UMD.
This makes environmental damage [such as lava or falling damage] far more dangerous [which is fine if that's your goal rather than an unintended side effect]
How so?
If we're going by the simple rule I described, you can walk through lava, lose half your hit points, then have a five minute rest and get completely better.
If we say the rule applies only to combat damage and environmental damage is always 'real' damage that takes days to heal, then lava remains exactly the same amount of threat it is in the current game (assuming the party still has access to magical healing).
In other words: Mundane healing would be a nice thing and nice things are for casters.Because niche protection matters (if we're talking about magic classes).
Just look at the kind of fits people have at arcane healing magic (unless it's on a Bard or Witch).
I guess it's just a matter of consistency (except when consistency didn't matter).
No, there *IS* mundane healing.
If there was instantaneous NonMagical healing..there would be no need for ClericsAnd we need to force people to play clerics because...
Or paladins or rangers or warpreists or inquisitors or bards or druids or shamans or oracles or skalds or alchemists or .....