Unchained Skills and Feats

Thursday, April 9, 2015

If classes are the main chassis of a character, skills and feats are its nuts and bolts. When they let us designers loose in Pathfinder Unchained, it's only natural that we wanted to play around with how the nuts and bolts attach, and even try changing the shapes of those nuts and bolts entirely! In Chapters 2 and 3 of Pathfinder Unchained, there are not only several daring subsystems that play with feats, there so many different options for restructuring skills that it's easy to lose yourself in all the possibilities. I've gathered some of the coolest tidbits from all those options to share with you today!

Starting with skills, the three major skills options each serve a different goal.


Illustration by Géraud Soulié

I Need More Skills to Flesh Out My Character
The background skills variant separates out certain skills as background skills as opposed to adventuring skills. It also adds some new background skills to the game, such as Lore, a very specific version of the Knowledge skill. To round it out, everyone gains 2 extra skill points to spend on background skills, no matter your class!

There Are Too Many Skills
The consolidated skills variant serves a somewhat opposite goal, combining current skill functionality into only 12 skills.

Assigning Skill Points Can Be Tough
The grouped skills variant makes it easier to assign skills, speeding up the level-up process. It also gives characters a middle tier of skills that they are pretty good at, rather than most characters having mostly max ranks, 1 rank, or no ranks.

As cool as the skill sections are, the sections involving feats are the showstoppers of today's blog!

Variant Multiclassing
Have you ever wanted to multiclass your character for flavor reasons—maybe pick up some bardic performances and versatile performance to represent the time you unexpectedly spent studying music one adventure—but then you realized that your character would be pretty significantly handicapped by taking those two levels in bard? It happens all the time, and it requires you to sacrifice something whichever choice you take. With the variant multiclassing option, you can choose a secondary class and trade out half your feats (3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th) to instead gain a progression of special abilities based on which class you pick. Want to be a fighter who dabbles in divination magic such that he always acts on the surprise round or vexes his foes with hexes? You're covered. Want to be a druid who specializes in taking out dragons as her favored enemy or flies into a rage when the natural world is in danger? You've got that too. With variant multiclassing, you can open more combinations than ever before, without delaying your access to your main class's cool new features!

Stamina System
The stamina system offers new powers for every combat feat in the RPG line. Yes, you read that right: it specifically lists every combat feat in the whole line and then grants each feat new powers. Right from the start, the system offers options for you to just give the system to fighters or to give it to all martial characters, depending on your preference. Stamina is a new resource that allows martial characters to boost themselves and use their feats in new and exciting ways. It regenerates relatively quickly between battles, allowing you to enjoy an entirely new mindset to your daily exploration; a party of stamina-users benefits from hit and run guerilla tactics, emphasizing the value of mobility, stealth, and timing (as opposed to the mindset of "buff, buff, buff, speed through!"). Stamina lets you boost your effectiveness or change the rules of the feat in your favor. These special stamina powers are called combat tricks. While I'm sure that the ways to use stamina to boost your effectiveness will be quite popular (like Critical Focus, where under certain conditions, you can increase your critical multiplier, potentially multiple times if you roll high enough), I'm a fan of the combat tricks that let you retroactively apply an effect (like declare a Stunning Fist after you already know your attack connected), and my absolute favorites are the ones that let you trick your opponent through devious tactical play. For instance, the Combat Style Master combat trick allows you to spend stamina to switch your styles as an off-turn free action. So you can lure people into attacking you and then suddenly be in Snake Style before they can even call off the attack! In the same vein, I also really enjoy the combat tricks that let you use your powers when you normally couldn't, since that has two cool psychological effects: not only can it present great "gotcha" moments, but once your enemy knows you can, say, spend stamina to take a second attack of opportunity against them from the same opportunity, it changes the way they view your threat, and it might allow you to control their actions without even spending your stamina!

Tune in next time to learn more about magic—specifically, the new scaling magic items in Pathfinder Unchained that grow with your character!

Mark Seifter
Designer

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Tags: Géraud Soulié Iconics Jirelle Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
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A few more great options, but there's absolutely loads of them..

Ninja + Sorcerer: emo arcane trickster
Paladin + Inquisitor: when smite isn't enough, add a judgement and bane!
Skald + summoner: raging eidolon for the win! Raging summoned monsters... Yikes!
Barbarian + Druid: wild shape and rage.
Ninja+ alchemist
Ninja and monk.. Ninja and most things really..

And once you start adding archetypes to the main class, your options just skyrocket..

Thanks Paizo for making Pathfinder the RPG I've always wanted. I don't think I could come up with a concept I'd like to play which couldn't be done using this. Mark said this book was all about giving us options. Well, I think you've really hit that target dead on!!

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'd like to know a bit more before I do a hardcover purchase, but so far these are tantalizing tidbits. Extra class abilities sound better than feats (usually).

Apart from background skill points (that rocks!), not sure how I feel about the skill sections for now.

Looking forward to the scaling magic items preview!


Dear Lord... do alignment requirements still count if it's a secondary class? If not then my only character from now on is Paladin+Barbarian. Maybe switch it up and do primary Barb and Paladin secondary. I mean, Celestial Bloodrager has been fun, but not quite what I was going for.


I have my doubt about balancing giving up 5 feats for casting. I guess i'll have to wait and see.


Dekalinder wrote:
I have my doubt about balancing giving up 5 feats for casting. I guess i'll have to wait and see.

I doubt spellcasting will be on the list of things you can get from the new multiclassing. The examples (diviner school-powers, hexes, rage, favored enemy) given in the blog are all about non-spellcasting class-abilities.


I hope you can get an eidolon with this without getting any spellcasting.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Charrend wrote:
Dear Lord... do alignment requirements still count if it's a secondary class? If not then my only character from now on is Paladin+Barbarian. Maybe switch it up and do primary Barb and Paladin secondary. I mean, Celestial Bloodrager has been fun, but not quite what I was going for.

My thoughts exactly! Aw Yeah!

Why yes, I do have a Pally and a Barb as a couple, and now I can (hopefully!) make them all couply in a mechanical sense while being within the rules. Why do you ask?

Grand Lodge

Interesting.

I really like the first and third option for skills, reducing the skill list doesn't do anything for me. Variant multi-classing sounds like incredible, actually I like it a lot better then the default multi-classing system.

And of course the new stamina system, yes me like, me like. I want to wrap my slimy little fingers around that one. Interesting how it adds a whole lot of possibilities, say a wizard can't hit with his crossbow, maybe use stamina to help with that. Fighter can't make his will save, try using stamina. So many options. :)


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Barbarians with Archaeological Luck =)
wishful thinking i know...


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Mark Seifter wrote:
We have all the current non-hybrid classes represented (since the hybrid classes are already hybrids to begin with). However, much as I biasedly love the kineticist, Unchained will not be listing any options that use rules from unpublished books, no.

Wouldn't be possible to include variant multiclassing coverage for those classes in the Occult Adventures book itself?


So many possibilities.... Mwahahah

Silver Crusade Contributor

Entryhazard wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
We have all the current non-hybrid classes represented (since the hybrid classes are already hybrids to begin with). However, much as I biasedly love the kineticist, Unchained will not be listing any options that use rules from unpublished books, no.
Wouldn't be possible to include variant multiclassing coverage for those classes in the Occult Adventures book itself?

Or possibly in Occult Origins. :)


Blave wrote:
I doubt spellcasting will be on the list of things you can get from the new multiclassing. The examples (diviner school-powers, hexes, rage, favored enemy) given in the blog are all about non-spellcasting class-abilities.

So, Eldritch Heritage expanded basically? I was hoping something more, but that seems robust enough for my liking.


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This is very intriguing. However, I was hoping for more of a swapout class abilities option between closely related classes. Namely, the Skald has something I believe is much more Bardish: Spell Kenning. Bards should have this even moreso than Skalds. Spell Kenning seems more cosmopolitan and Skalds are much less cosmopolitan than Bards.
So, anyway, that was my hope for 'unchained'.


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rainzax wrote:

any wager on what the 12 super-condenced skills are?

Rogue 18 INT can have them all lol.

Human Rogue with 14 Int can have them all. (favored class + skilled)


Dekalinder wrote:
Blave wrote:
I doubt spellcasting will be on the list of things you can get from the new multiclassing. The examples (diviner school-powers, hexes, rage, favored enemy) given in the blog are all about non-spellcasting class-abilities.
So, Eldritch Heritage expanded basically? I was hoping something more, but that seems robust enough for my liking.

Well, I'm obviously just guessing here, but as you said yurself, getting full spellcasting for 5 feats seems a bit much. I could _maybe_ see giving someone 4th level casting (of paladins or rangers) for 5 feats, but that's about it.

I'm very curious as to how this will work. I don't think you'll just get all class features for a few feats. I mean, imagine a fighter with full rage + rage powers or a bard with lay on hands, smite evil and divine grace. Also, some classes are just the sum of their class abilities. Give someone all abilities of a monk and you no longer need the class.

So yeah, I expect them to have list of abilities for each class, telling you which class features you can get. Maybe even make you choose a select few that you'll get once you reach the appropriate levels.

Silver Crusade

At any rate, is that Jirelle actually wielding an off-hand weapon I see in the article image? Once again, seems the artists know more about how fencing works than the designers, not that her footwork isn't all wrong. :P


I highly doubt spells will be something that can be earned from multiclassing. The examples given lean more towards getting domain powers (for divine classes) or school abilities/bloodline powers (for wizards/sorcerers).

One small possibility would be the summoner's summon monster SLA, and I rather hope (but don't expect) that that will be an option. I'd love to build a fighter who (through a combination of archetypes and multiclassing) has a familiar, can summon occassionally, and (through items) has a few other magical talents. I'd style him as a Magus or gish who is very melee focussed. Even without the summoning SLA, the concept is alive and well with some of the school powers that could become available.


Just a thought... with this varient multiclassing now a party will be able to get healing just by having someone trade in a few feats for channel energy progression. That's kinda cool.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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christos gurd wrote:
Eltacolibre wrote:

actually seems like they pretty much said that rage is an option:

Quote:


Want to be a druid who specializes in taking out dragons as her favored enemy or flies into a rage when the natural world is in danger? You've got that too.
rage was confirmed, rage powers weren't. Although they would make sense to out the progression.

Once you have Rage, Extra Rage Power means you can take them with feats.

Which I find really amusing, since rage powers are definitely stronger then combat feats.

==Aelryinth


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I would love getting channeling as a sorcerer with the celestial bloodline or a fighter with lay on hands.

Liberty's Edge

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You need to have the rage power class feature to take Extra Rage Power, not just rage.


Additionally, you'd only be able to use your naturally earned feats for extra rage powers, as the feats coming from fighter would be combat feats only.


Axial wrote:

1) Will there be new character sheets to represent the skill changes?

2) I assume the variant multiclassing system will cover only the core classes. Or will it be all of them?

3) I notice that a lot of archetypes are designed by taking features from other classes that the vanilla class doesn't have. Will the variant multiclassing make some of these irrelevant?

Just wanted to make sure Mark can see this.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Aaaand since you're multiclassing to take those class features, you'd have the class feature.

And yes, the fact rage powers are better then the combat feats you might be losing was the irony in that statement.

But, I truthfully don't care much. The fighter is a great multi-classer, yay. Subscript, the fighter is a terrible single class.

If they don't fix the fighter itself, yahoo. So unimpressed.

==Aelryinth


So Paizo Employee Mark Seifter Designer you are working on Pathfinder Unchained 2 for next year release correct? *insert sad puppy dog eyes here*

Silver Crusade

Am I the only one who thinks that this is likely to lead to a LOT of power creep?

Sure, beefing up the ftr is no huge deal. But do druids really need to be able to rage? Do wizards and clerics need more options?

ACG made it very clear that what Paizo considers balanced is very different from what I considered balanced (I think there's a lot of power creep in that book).

At the moment I'm hoping that little of this is made PFS legal. But I expect that the new classes, feats, multiclassing, etc will be legal. And the power level will be ratched up at least a couple more notches.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
pauljathome wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks that this is likely to lead to a LOT of power creep?

I'm sure you aren't, but I don't share the concern.


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I, too, am concerned about Wizards potentially benefiting from variant multiclassing. Full casters generally don't need feats as much as martials do; sure, the Fighter might benefit from the new system the most, but the Paladin and Barbarian are both pretty feat starved and will benefit from the new system less than a Wizard who suddenly has class features in addition to his spell list.

I should mention that I think the rest of paul's post is basically bunk, though.

Contributor

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pauljathome wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks that this is likely to lead to a LOT of power creep?

The price of one or more feats has always lead to multi classing versatility; you can see it in Shapeshifting Hunter, for example.

Quote:
Sure, beefing up the ftr is no huge deal. But do druids really need to be able to rage? Do wizards and clerics need more options?

Clerics and druids have 10 feats, the ones from character advancement. Wizards have 14. Add +1 to those numbers if your character is human. I would argue that this benefits clerics, wizards, and druids the LEAST because a feat is a much rarer resource to those classes.

Quote:

ACG made it very clear that what Paizo considers balanced is very different from what I considered balanced (I think there's a lot of power creep in that book).

At the moment I'm hoping that little of this is made PFS legal. But I expect that the new classes, feats, multiclassing, etc will be legal. And the power level will be ratched up at least a couple more notches.

And your basing your opinion on an elevator pitch on a preview blog. At least wait until the book's in your lap or on your doorstep before slinging design insults at the PDT.


pauljathome wrote:

Am I the only one who thinks that this is likely to lead to a LOT of power creep?

Sure, beefing up the ftr is no huge deal. But do druids really need to be able to rage? Do wizards and clerics need more options?

ACG made it very clear that what Paizo considers balanced is very different from what I considered balanced (I think there's a lot of power creep in that book).

At the moment I'm hoping that little of this is made PFS legal. But I expect that the new classes, feats, multiclassing, etc will be legal. And the power level will be ratched up at least a couple more notches.

It's a book of options. Everything in it is limited entirely by GM discretion. I doubt most of this will be in PFS, although there might be a variant that includes it as a counterpart to PFS Core.


Zombie Ninja wrote:

Interesting.

I really like the first and third option for skills, reducing the skill list doesn't do anything for me.

If I was to look for a variant skill system, I'd want to combine a few skills (Fly into Acro, Climb/Swim/Ride becomes Athletics), split search back out of perception (and in the process get back rules on how long it actually takes to toss a room), rewrite how some are used (Appraise needs to have a range of DCs, not just DC20 for everything), and probably completely rework knowledge skills (local especially is problematic; streetwise would be a better name for how it's used - except for also inexplicably representing knowledge (humanoids))


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.@pauljathome

Power creep has been going on since forever. And the answer to justify is oooo magic.

That's neither here nor there. This is unchained designed "to give" or "not to give" more options. And as Mr. Paizo Employee Mark Seifter Designer has been saying take what you want from unchained and make it your own. Evaluate what you think "power creep" is, and toss it out. That's the beauty of Pen and Paper. They are all guidelines and we the players and the DM/GM decide what we want or don't want in our games.

As for your PFS concerns dunno if that will hurt the meta/spirit of it or not or if it will even make an appearance at all in PFS.

"The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group cooperative experience"-Gary Gygax

"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is they don't need any rules"-Gary Gygax


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pauljathome wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks that this is likely to lead to a LOT of power creep?

Totally. Two more skillpoints for background skills is going to throw evertyhing out of wack. I know I wouldn't want to play at the same PFS table as a fighter that can weave baskets AND sing. It'll really break my verisimilitude...


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Here's an idea: Brown-Fur Transmuter Arcanist using Variant Multiclassing to pick up Wild Shape. Now, you don't actually use Wild Shape; you only have it to qualify for Natural Spell. Now you can use the Beast Shape spells at full effectiveness. Return of 3.5's martial wizard?

Sovereign Court

lol power creep, you knew this was coming. Alright where is our favorite dead horse avatar?

Anyway, I"ll keep thinking of fun options and recreating my favorite characters from fiction and medias, while you worry about someone doing more damage or lord behold, having class features, A cleric with rogue talents? Now this is taking the game too far~! Alright let me head back to my demiplane with my army of simulacrum.

Scarab Sages

graystone wrote:
pauljathome wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks that this is likely to lead to a LOT of power creep?
Totally. Two more skillpoints for background skills is going to throw evertyhing out of wack. I know I wouldn't want to play at the same PFS table as a fighter that can weave baskets AND sing. It'll really break my verisimilitude...

Note: Anyone can sing now it's not a trained only skill. They'll just be pretty variable


Considering that these are all optional rules why worry about power creep? Also aren't some of these options direct buffs to certain classes? I'm not sure if we can call power creep when some of these seem to patch gimped classes.

As a side note I'm sure the fact that these are optional rules the GM vs Player threads are going to flare up something awful. The book is described as having multiple alt rules for some subjects and likely monkey wrenches are going to be thrown into balance discussions because of how variable just using the hardcovers is going to be. I for one am going to stick around the third party forums for about a month after the pdf hits and wait for all that to blow over.


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B. A. Robards-Debardot wrote:
graystone wrote:
pauljathome wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks that this is likely to lead to a LOT of power creep?
Totally. Two more skillpoints for background skills is going to throw evertyhing out of wack. I know I wouldn't want to play at the same PFS table as a fighter that can weave baskets AND sing. It'll really break my verisimilitude...
Note: Anyone can sing now it's not a trained only skill. They'll just be pretty variable

Note: the inference was that they can do so well plus most fighters aren't known for their stellar charisma score for unskilled singing. Technically anyone can weave baskets too, but that wasn't the inference, ie doing it skillfully.


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I am really excited for this book. This stamina business really seems aimed at fixing the whole mage/fighter gap and I find that pretty interesting.

For a while, I had been working on a homebrew system like this that was tied to BAB (with monks, maguses, rogues, and the like being treated as full BAB for the purpose of this subsystem). I mostly used it to give everyone access to pounce once or twice a fight and let ranged-dabblers benefit from precise shot every now and then.

This stamina thing seems way more in depth and intense.


Aelryinth wrote:
christos gurd wrote:
Eltacolibre wrote:

actually seems like they pretty much said that rage is an option:

Quote:


Want to be a druid who specializes in taking out dragons as her favored enemy or flies into a rage when the natural world is in danger? You've got that too.
rage was confirmed, rage powers weren't. Although they would make sense to out the progression.

Once you have Rage, Extra Rage Power means you can take them with feats.

Which I find really amusing, since rage powers are definitely stronger then combat feats.

==Aelryinth

No...

Rage Power has a prerequisite of "Rage Power class feature". not Rage.


Rynjin wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
christos gurd wrote:
Eltacolibre wrote:

actually seems like they pretty much said that rage is an option:

Quote:


Want to be a druid who specializes in taking out dragons as her favored enemy or flies into a rage when the natural world is in danger? You've got that too.
rage was confirmed, rage powers weren't. Although they would make sense to out the progression.

Once you have Rage, Extra Rage Power means you can take them with feats.

Which I find really amusing, since rage powers are definitely stronger then combat feats.

==Aelryinth

No...

Rage Power has a prerequisite of "Rage Power class feature". not Rage.

How do you get one without the other?


Several ways. A level 1 barbarian has rage, but does not qualify for Extra Rage Power since he does not gain a rage power until level 2. A more long-term example is the the Anger Inquisition, which gives the inquisitor rage but not rage powers.

I think the point being made is that the multiclass progression mentioned above may or may not include rage powers in the "rage" suite of powers gained from 'soft gestalting' into barbarian. We can't know for sure until we have the book in our own greedy little paws. :)


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Power Creep is not a bad thing in this game unless your GM gives carte blanche to all things published by Paizo. Remember, different people like different things. If you prefer lower powered games, run lower powered characters.

A good GM will limit player options to things he finds appropriate for his campaign. Just because something is an option, does not mean it is a necessity.


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graystone wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
christos gurd wrote:
Eltacolibre wrote:

actually seems like they pretty much said that rage is an option:

Quote:


Want to be a druid who specializes in taking out dragons as her favored enemy or flies into a rage when the natural world is in danger? You've got that too.
rage was confirmed, rage powers weren't. Although they would make sense to out the progression.

Once you have Rage, Extra Rage Power means you can take them with feats.

Which I find really amusing, since rage powers are definitely stronger then combat feats.

==Aelryinth

No...

Rage Power has a prerequisite of "Rage Power class feature". not Rage.

How do you get one without the other?

Off the top of my head:

-Being a level 1 Barbarian.

-Being a level 1-5 Viking Fighter

-Being an any level Inquisitor or Cleric with the Anger Inquisition.

-Being a level 8-11 Cleric or Inquisitor with the Rage subdomain.

-Being one of the Barbarian archetypes that trades out Rage Powers for some levels.

And I'm sure there's a few I've missed.


I know that some rage powers, the Monk and Rogue are probably pretty buffed but I think the Fighter may come out on top in this. The Fighter gets a ton of combat feats so loses less for giving up five feats for other class features, the remaining class features he does get include combat feats which are getting a buff, and any one of the ways to deal with skills seem to benefit fighters. Depending on what rules you're using for your games the Fighter is either a dud or a super-powered murder machine.


I find the continued complaints about the Fighter class before we've even seen the book kind of tiring. I've had a lot of in game experience playing PCs with all or mostly Fighter levels recently, and the two things which have really stood out as drawbacks to me are low skill points and low Will saves exacerbated by the temptation to dump Wis so you can be intelligent enough for Combat Expertise and maybe help shore up your low skill ranks a little.

The problem with low skill ranks has clearly been addressed. That by itself reduces the pressure to have a high Int. If there are some other answers for the problems surrounding Combat Expertise I'd say that the Fighter should be in great shape. There have already been a lot of killer Fighter options in recent books like the Mutation Warrior and the Eldritch Guardian, and those two can even be taken together! Ftr, the F is for Fantastic!


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Devilkiller wrote:


The problem with low skill ranks has clearly been addressed.

Errr...has it? Those two skill ranks you're not allowed to spend on anything useful fix the "Fighters don't have enough ranks to fill in their useful skills" problem? How?


Fighters can be sailors and blacksmiths now?

Sovereign Court

ZAM can spare some feats.

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