Regional Venture-Coordinator, Central Europe
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Just started prepping this scenario, and i have a few questions regarding the final fight.
The boss seems to be the same in both subtiers. Is this a mistake, or am i missing something. The only difference i found is in some (not all) of the randomly appearing hazards. Is that really all, seems weird to me.
I am also slightly confused with the ceiling height. It is 15 ft above the bridge in B2 but there are no other mentions of it in the other rooms.
Since the boss is gargantuan it should be 20 ft high, so it does not fit in the area and could only move by squeezing, therefore limiting its ability to do anything useful.
Also the boss is not resistant or immune to fire, so it will take a lot of damage from the hazards. Is that intended?
Contributor—Canadian Maplecakes
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Hey Nils! Some quick notes on the encounter:
-There's a single difference between the final bosses in each tier (primarily that the lower tier is missing 30 hit points). Given the scale, if the PCs retreat, the juggernaut will squeeze its way up the slope and, if necessary, over the bridge.
-The encounter area where the juggernaut is located (area B4), should be lower than the other areas. This should start at the base of the northeastern slope. This didn't make it into the description for the area, but it should be about 10 feet lower overall.
-The boss is intentionally not immune to fire. The fire effects of the erupting volcano (but not the seismic activity knock down) should damage it. The PCs can—and in lower tiers, probably should—use this to their advantage.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Thank you Thurston, for answering so quickly... but I have some other questions regarding the last encounter:
PC are explicitly warned what will happen when they remove Fossilblight, so I expect PCs to be heavily buffed even with round/level buffs.
Is is unclear to me, can PCs actually identify the creature using knowledge skills to learn of his abilities and weaknesses or does the slack block it completely?
Also since the statblock still lists it, what deity is the faith-bound weakness keyed to? Gods with the (artifice and earth domains are rather rare, Torag being one of them but that doesn't necessarily make much sense in context).
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Contributor—Canadian Maplecakes
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Nu, V frr ebg guvegrra znxrf na nccrnenapr. Qhevat cerc, V fbyirq vg jvgu ab uvagf.
But seriously, I used the cipher in the scenario to figure this out... just because I'm still paranoid about it being correct! ;)
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Yeah.
I'm not sure how I feel about using known codes/puzzles in PFS scenarios. I realize that because of my other hobby, it's super easy for me. But that means that we would've skipped the whole challenge in getting the last clue because it was unnecessary. At least it's not _that_ big of a deal in the long run.
I mean, it's possible to create a similar working cipher where if people have heard of it before, it helps but doesn't instantly break it. Like if the encoding/decoding key had been this instead:
A-B-C-D-E-F-G-H-I-J-K-L-M
R-U-O-X-S-N-Y-W-Q-Z-P-V-T
That works exactly the same as ROT13, but now suddenly the clues matter a bit more for precisely the kind of person that likes cryptography and most other people won't notice.
That being said - I love cryptography in scenarios, even if it is simple stuff! :)
(It's not like the scenario that contains the "here's a three-gallon and five-gallon jug of water, fill up exactly four gallons" puzzle. Like seriously?)
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Contributor—Canadian Maplecakes
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Thank you Thurston, for answering so quickly... but I have some other questions regarding the last encounter:
PC are explicitly warned what will happen when they remove Fossilblight, so I expect PCs to be heavily buffed even with round/level buffs.
Is is unclear to me, can PCs actually identify the creature using knowledge skills to learn of his abilities and weaknesses or does the slack block it completely?
Also since the statblock still lists it, what deity is the faith-bound weakness keyed to? Gods with the (artifice and earth domains are rather rare, Torag being one of them but that doesn't necessarily make much sense in context).
As for identifying what the juggernaut is, that should be extremely difficult, until the PCs remove Fossilblight from the slag. Once the weapon is removed, and the construct animates, then the PCs can identify it normally.
Good question on the faith-bound weakness, and certainly something that probably needed expansion in the text. The deity isn't specifically called out in this case, as this juggernaut's creation was more to the Peerless Empire than a specific deity. Thus the domains that are more in line with the shaitan than a particular deity. As a GM, I'd probably allow the PCs to achieve the same effect if they have a symbol or item of suitable significance to the Peerless Empire of the shaitan.
Luckily, the shrine special rule should have no bearing on the encounter.
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Contributor—Canadian Maplecakes
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Old Man Mountain flat out tells the party that it is a juggernaut, and they can see its picture in the mosaic in B3, so they should know what they are facing.
Yes, both of those ways of finding out about the juggernaut (and making a related Knowledge check) are entirely valid. But it's possible the PCs don't pickup Old Man Mountain's use of the term juggernaut, possibly thinking that he's just using the word in the context of 'something big'. It's also possible that the PCs don't complete the mosaic in the previous chamber.
I would say, that if the PCs are trying to identify the juggernaut based on the slag pile they find, then it shouldn't be recognizable. At least, it's not recognizable until Fossilblight is removed and the construct awakens.
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I think both parties in today's gameday took it down in two rounds. My table was so busy trying to not eat a second trample and fire bomb hazard that they forgot to throw the helmet at it. I ruled that Fossilblight was able to sunder it and they threw it into the eruption. As written, only disintegrate and the juggernaut are valid options however.
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Contributor—Canadian Maplecakes
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I think both parties in today's gameday took it down in two rounds. My table was so busy trying to not eat a second trample and fire bomb hazard that they forgot to throw the helmet at it. I ruled that Fossilblight was able to sunder it and they threw it into the eruption. As written, only disintegrate and the juggernaut are valid options however.
Quick, but I'm glad to see the combat was (at least seemed) tense!
Larry did a great job bringing everything together in the final encounter, especially with the inclusion of an alternative option for the helmet's destruction. I figured, while developing this scene, that it would be pretty tense to try and get everything done. Something about a volcano getting in the way? :)
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Which deity does Singe worship? Her tactics require this information as the effect of her first action varies a lot between different deities.
While technically spiritual ally doesn't have this written in its description, it would be reasonable to use the table from spiritual weapon given that one is basically just a higher-level version of the other. That would make the spiritual ally wield a longsword.
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The end encounter looks like it will either by very deadly or very easy. Using pretty much the same stats for the opponent looks like a terrible idea I can see a number of low tier groups being very surprised by this. I don't see it lasting long against high tier anything. Either way it doesn't look too hard to avoid this encounter given the opposition is mindless.
The boys is nearly the same, but the environment greys much harder: The high tier has 40% chance to have an Earthquake cast, which is reasonably rough when your caster gets buried in an erupting volcano. Also is still a crapload of damage possibly coming at everyone at the same time.
This looks like it could run extremely short. With only 3 encounters, two of which can be bypassed quite easily, I can see completing this in about two hours which brings me to my last observation.
Season 7 was often called season of the skill check, season 8 seems to be turning into the season of the very easy skill check. The DC's throughout the adventure are extremely low, especially for tier 10-11. I think we have a DC above 30 maybe once or twice through the whole thing, most are 20-27. That's not putting up much of a challenge even to groups with only moderate optimisation. 10 ranks, the class skill bonus, a +5 stat modifier and a masterwork tool are getting you up to 70-90% success rate on most of the DC's here. Anyone with even a bit of focus in the area is autopassing the lot.
Ward Asunder want that long either. The encounters can be bypassed, but some DC are still rough at 35. But I agree that many of the checks seem trivial.
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Now that I look at this closer because my table is steering towards high tier, how is the Earthquake supposed to work? Since it's a cave, they can attempt a Reflex save for half damage, but they are pinned by rubble anyway (as worded by the spell), despite the mention of "potential" in the hazard description.
I don't have much experience with this high level spells: How does that work exactly? The spell states the duration is 1 round, but there is a clause for taking damage from being crushed every minute.
Can people somehow get out, or is this a case of "get flooded in lava, fail the mission and pay for resurrection"?
Using the Cave-in rules seems harsh as well, since that gives you a DC25 strength check to get out every minute (in an erupting volcano with 40% chance of progressing lava every round + an unaffected trampling Juggernaut waltzing over the party, for 10 rounds).
Also: What does the Caster level 20 for the spell have to do with anything? I see no relevant level-dependant variables except Range. Is this for the unlikely case of a Counterspell?
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Now that I look at this closer because my table is steering towards high tier, how is the Earthquake supposed to work? Since it's a cave, they can attempt a Reflex save for half damage, but they are pinned by rubble anyway (as worded by the spell), despite the mention of "potential" in the hazard description.I am running this tonight and have much the same question. Neither earthquake nor the cave-in rules provide an escape from the bury effect, the save is simply for half damage.
Yeah, I'm starting to read this through myself, now, and I have the same concern with the earthquake effect. Seems like a TPK magnet if we run the scenario as published. Did someone perhaps think that the bury zone worked like the slide zone?
In the interest of not being a complete arse to the players, I'm inclined to use bury zone damage with slide zone rules unless someone says otherwise.
Cave-ins and collapsing tunnels are extremely dangerous. Not only do dungeon explorers face the danger of being crushed by tons of falling rock, but even if they survive they might be buried beneath a pile of rubble or cut off from the only known exit. A cave-in buries anyone in the middle of the collapsing area, and then sliding debris damages anyone in the periphery of the collapse. A typical corridor subject to a cave-in might have a bury zone with a 15-foot radius and a 10-foot-wide slide zone extending beyond the bury zone. A weakened ceiling can be spotted with a DC 20 Knowledge (engineering) or DC 20 Craft (stonemasonry) check. Remember that Craft checks can be made untrained as Intelligence checks. A dwarf can make such a check if he simply passes within 10 feet of a weakened ceiling.
A weakened ceiling might collapse when subjected to a major impact or concussion. A character can cause a cave-in by destroying half the pillars holding up the ceiling.
Characters in the bury zone of a cave-in take 8d6 points of damage, or half that amount if they make a DC 15 Reflex save. They are subsequently buried. Characters in the slide zone take 3d6 points of damage, or no damage at all if they make a DC 15 Reflex save. Characters in the slide zone who fail their saves are buried.
Characters take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage per minute while buried. If such a character falls unconscious, he must make a DC 15 Constitution check each minute. If it fails, he takes 1d6 points of lethal damage each minute until freed or dead.
Characters who aren't buried can dig out their friends. In 1 minute, using only her hands, a character can clear rocks and debris equal to five times her heavy load limit. The amount of loose stone that fills a 5-foot-by-5-foot area weighs 1 ton (2,000 pounds). Armed with an appropriate tool, such as a pick, crowbar, or shovel, a digger can clear loose stone twice as quickly as by hand. A buried character can attempt to free himself with a DC 25 Strength check.
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Contributor—Canadian Maplecakes
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The last line in the section Terminalmancer quoted is correct: there are some further detailed rules on how to handle cave-ins.
I did want to address some of the concern about the effectiveness of this hazard. My original interpretation of the earthquake spell, which upon re-reading could easily be incorrect, is that a successful Reflex save should allow the character to avoid getting pinned under rubble. Having every creature automatically forced under the rubble without a save was not how I interpreted the encounter in development.
Given my interpretation was just a DC 15 Reflex save, and that this only occurs in higher Subtier 10–11, I thought it was completely reasonable, and a means of allowing 'high level shenanigans' to shine. Obviously there's a lot of room for additional GM interpretation with this hazard, and as a GM running this, I'd encourage out-of-the-box uses of class abilities/spells/items to free any trapped allies. Given that I've got multiple reports of '1 or 2 rounding' the juggernaut, the hazard should be fairly potent... just not 'no save, enjoy being trapped under rocks before the lava eats you alive' potent.
Anywho, hope that clears up some of the intent with this encounter! Sorry for not responding sooner; I've been in the midst of battling other projects.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Actually I had one other query about this. The upper level of the cavern is only 15' high. The juggernaut is gargantuan. Does it have to squeeze if it moves up into that section? Pathfinder's rules tend to only deal with two dimensions so I gave it a pass and let it move about but I am uncertain if that was intentional or not.
That issue is mentioned in the first post and answered shortly after that.
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The last line in the section Terminalmancer quoted is correct: there are some further detailed rules on how to handle cave-ins.
I did want to address some of the concern about the effectiveness of this hazard. My original interpretation of the earthquake spell, which upon re-reading could easily be incorrect, is that a successful Reflex save should allow the character to avoid getting pinned under rubble. Having every creature automatically forced under the rubble without a save was not how I interpreted the encounter in development.
Given my interpretation was just a DC 15 Reflex save, and that this only occurs in higher Subtier 10–11, I thought it was completely reasonable, and a means of allowing 'high level shenanigans' to shine. Obviously there's a lot of room for additional GM interpretation with this hazard, and as a GM running this, I'd encourage out-of-the-box uses of class abilities/spells/items to free any trapped allies. Given that I've got multiple reports of '1 or 2 rounding' the juggernaut, the hazard should be fairly potent... just not 'no save, enjoy being trapped under rocks before the lava eats you alive' potent.
Anywho, hope that clears up some of the intent with this encounter! Sorry for not responding sooner; I've been in the midst of battling other projects.
Thank you for the clarification. That is a lot less rough, and about what I was expecting. Still brutal if one players fails his save at that point, as freeing him still requires 10 rounds per attempt. But it is indeed high tier.
It is mentioned the juggernaut is not impeded by the Earthquake effect. I suppose that's in regard to the "cannot do anything for one round" part of the Earthquake?
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I had a hard look at the trample Universal Monster ability:
Trample (Ex) As a full-round action, a creature with the trample ability can attempt to overrun any creature that is at least one size category smaller than itself. This works just like the overrun combat maneuver, but the trampling creature does not need to make a check, it merely has to move over opponents in its path. Targets of a trample take an amount of damage equal to the trampling creature's slam damage + 1-1/2 times its Str modifier. Targets of a trample can make an attack of opportunity, but at a –4 penalty. If targets forgo an attack of opportunity, they can attempt to avoid the trampling creature and receive a Reflex save to take half damage. The save DC against a creature's trample attack is 10 + 1/2 creature's HD + creature's Str modifier (the exact DC is given in the creature's descriptive text). A trampling creature can only deal trampling damage to each target once per round, no matter how many times its movement takes it over a target creature.
Format: trample (2d6+9, DC 20); Location: Special Attacks.
Simple question, if you attempt to trample creatures, or say if you use the overrun maneuver, do you also provoke with the movement included with that?
Say you are trying to trample a creature with reach, and likely have to go through that creatures threatened squares and provoke, prior to actually overrunning the creature. So do you potentially provoke twice? Once for the movement and once for the trample?
If a second character is standing close enough to get an attack of opportunity from the movement (but isn't close enough to actually get trample and get that AOO) does trample still provoke?
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Played this tonight - not GM, but I've parsed through the scenario now.
Low-tier party was Fighter 8, Archer Ranger 8, Skald 8, Grandfathered Theurge 9, Brown Fur Transmuter 9.
Social, social, social - Skald cannot fail those DCs on a 1; parleyed with Bulls.
Azers caught the party defacing B1, some PCs were trigger happy, azers are ex-azers.
Failed to notice ROT13, but worked from the assumption that it was a substitution cipher. No problems for puzzle people.
The fun part -
Generally had minimal issues with the environmental effects, but buffed sky high (Fighter reaches STR 30) for the juggernaut.
Archer wins init, alongside ultrabuffed snake - full turn of hits.
Skald hurls evil McGuffin to its special destiny.
TRAMPLE - 62 (vs average of 66) - Skald is downed, animal companion is slain outright, Fighter lands the AoO.
Fighter ends the BBEG with a vital strike. Skald is cured.
Exit init after four of five PC turns in Round 1.
Pathfinders complete escape montage with erupting volcano in background.
Total scenario time: 3:00
Verdict - thoroughly enjoyed the scenario, but I'd be careful to follow Andrew's lead on separating out B1 and as a means of resource conservation and subtle hint that you should throw *everything* into the final encounter. This seems like a natural inference if you've diplomanced your way there without rolling init.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Trample (works as Overrun), like any combat maneuver, only provokes from a target of the trample.
The movement itself (as opposed to the overrunning) provokes from everyone who can make an AoO.
That was pretty much my assumption, but I have read dissenting opinions (Trample only ever provokes once), what are the others thinking about this?
How was this run at your table (actually Acrobatics might be an option her, but considering the trampler^^)? And with what assumption was the scenario developed?The reason why I ask, is that I see a lot of characters with reach and combat reflexes in my area.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I believe that the AoO mentioned in the Trample rules IS the AoO for movement, so there cannot be two AoOs as it is the same instance provoking. The Trample rules just allow you to make a Reflex save in place of your AoO, they do not grant a second one.
If it'S the AOO for movement why is it at a penalty? And if someone tramples within your threatened area, but isn't actually trampling you do you get your regular AOO?
And why don't you get your regular AOO at range, you could successfully trip?
This really is one of those 3.5 Rules that doesn't work all that well with combat manoevers.
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The key question, I suppose, is "When does the AoO against Overrun occur?"
Barring Reach, the AoO for an Overrun attempt happens the moment you attempt to enter someone's square. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense for you to stop right before them as soon as the attempt fails.
If the target has reach (or if you move through someone else's threatened area), you are provoking for a different "offense".
The major difference between Trample and Overrun is that the former has an automatic success on the Overrun attempt. All the rest appears to be a rider effect.
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Ran this tonight. Very concerned over trample damage. Ran the high tier and one trample was able to take out two characters. Luckily the two fighters both crit on their AoO and finished off the Juggernaut quickly. Everything else was social through and the players realized the Rot13 right away.
Really enjoyed the story behind this and loved playing Old Pak and Old Man Mountain. Definitely runs fast 2 - 2.5 hours.
I am concerned running this at low tier and watching level 7 characters fail DC 30 Ref saves and taking 8d6 + 38 damage.
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What is the intent on how to run Earthquake here? I ran this scenario tonight at 8.6 rounding to 9 rounding to 11 and ended up not doing the disable moment and attacks, just the relevant cave in stuff and it still almost killed them in a super glass cannon way, and they had a channel specialist to get them through hazard trample stuff and tons of buffs running. If they don't all start flying, it seems extremely dangerous, but maybe that's how it's intended. I tended to softball as we had a newer player and one who has just come back from a many year break, but was wondering how others run it to take into account.going forward. Scenario is also super quick, we clocked in at 2.5 hours and one combat.
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At APL 9.8 I hit the Earthquake as the first random event. I forgot the round of "no action" for players. Then the lvl 11 druid demolished the juggernaut with the first 3 of his 5 attacks.
Remark: The hint that you're going to fight a juggernaut is given. Squishy/ ranged characters can just stand on the bridge instead of going down. There's no way the construct is going to be there for at least the first 3 rounds. Also I chose for a relatively straight trample-line, which limits the amount of targets hit at once.
Still a Question: Can the gargantuan construct end its movement on an opponent? As far as I know, it can't, which marginally limits its trample paths, as the area isn't that large, compared to its size.
Still, I have compliments for the writer from the party I ran for, for the flavour of the scenario.
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Season 7 was often called season of the skill check, season 8 seems to be turning into the season of the very easy skill check.
More like season of the very short scenario. This is the second scenario I've played this season where we reached the end in under 2.5 hours, and the whole table sat there going "That's it? I was expecting more".
In both cases, we diplomacized our way through several encounters, so we skipped some fights. I'm glad that it's possible to do that sometimes, but in both of the very short scenarios, the end fight was over in a single round, so there was very little combat the entire scenario.
Yes, we took down the juggernaut that quickly. High tier, some well optimized PCs. Mine was the wimp of the group at level 9 and not overly optimized, but I still helped quite a bit, especially on the social encounters.