Ancestor Eidolon, what does it get?


Rules Questions


So I have some question on this, as it looks like a really cool option. Can be found here

"At 1st level, an ancestor eidolon gains all of the racial traits associated with its summoner’s race;"
1)Does that mean if I pick human I get the stat increase to any score?

2)If I pick halfling is my eidolon small with slower speed with the same stats as normal for a medium eidolon(excluding any altering if q1 is yes.) or do I go small sized eidolon stats and then potentially alter from there?

"An ancestor eidolon counts as a creature of its chosen race’s type and subtype for all effects, except for the purpose of meeting feat prerequisite requirements."
3)Does Orc blood or Elf Blood for half-orc/elf let it take feats for those races? Thus they could qualify for human feats through racial trait but not half-orc feats because ability says no for it's chosen race.


What book is this from?

Silver Crusade Contributor

The NPC wrote:
What book is this from?

Blood of the Beast, page 31. ^_^


Chess Pwn wrote:

"At 1st level, an ancestor eidolon gains all of the racial traits associated with its summoner’s race;"

1)Does that mean if I pick human I get the stat increase to any score?

Since the increase is listed as a racial trait, yes. Does make some sense if your ancestor was human, after all.

Quote:
2)If I pick halfling is my eidolon small with slower speed with the same stats as normal for a medium eidolon(excluding any altering if q1 is yes.) or do I go small sized eidolon stats and then potentially alter from there?

I feel that you don't need to apply the ability score change for a Small eidolon. Because halfling already results in related modifications (-2 Str, +2 Dex).

Speed is a different story. A halfling is a biped creature with lower than usual speed. If you simply set the base speed of the eidolon to 20, this has no effect on serpentine ones, but it's a huge drawback for quadruped ones (from 40 down to 20). So I'd rather apply a -10 penalty to base speed which stays even with a size increase. Even if this means base speed 10 for a Huge serpentine eidolon.

Quote:

"An ancestor eidolon counts as a creature of its chosen race’s type and subtype for all effects, except for the purpose of meeting feat prerequisite requirements."

3)Does Orc blood or Elf Blood for half-orc/elf let it take feats for those races? Thus they could qualify for human feats through racial trait but not half-orc feats because ability says no for it's chosen race.

I think the 'get no racial feats' part is more specific than the 'get all racial traits' section, so the first one applies. But I'd totally get if a GM decides otherwise - in favor of the player. At the moment I don't see any trouble with it, eidolons have less feats than PCs anyway.


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SheepishEidolon wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
2)If I pick halfling is my eidolon small with slower speed with the same stats as normal for a medium eidolon(excluding any altering if q1 is yes.) or do I go small sized eidolon stats and then potentially alter from there?

I feel that you don't need to apply the ability score change for a Small eidolon. Because halfling already results in related modifications (-2 Str, +2 Dex).

Speed is a different story. A halfling is a biped creature with lower than usual speed. If you simply set the base speed of the eidolon to 20, this has no effect on serpentine ones, but it's a huge drawback for quadruped ones (from 40 down to 20). So I'd rather apply a -10 penalty to base speed which stays even with a size increase. Even if this means base speed 10 for a Huge serpentine eidolon.

So these eidolons can only be biped, which is normally 30ft.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Also note that, since an Ancestor Eidolon has no natural attacks, races that gain weapon proficiencies via Weapon Familiarity are good choices for the summoner's race.


First feat for extra traits, grabbing Heirloom Weapon and something else is really thematic and a great way to get them combat-worthy quickly.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Or you could just take an appropriate Weapon Proficiency feat?


David knott 242 wrote:
Or you could just take an appropriate Weapon Proficiency feat?

Extra Traits does it in a thematic way, and gives you a spare trait to spend on something fun.


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The problem with the Heirloom Weapon trait is that it has to be a specific weapon -- and eidolons are more subject than normal characters to losing their stuff.

Varisian Tattoo and Shoanti Tattoo look like interesting options, though.


so, anyone else have thoughts on my questions?
Or is everyone agreeing it's
1)yes
2)just start with the medium eidolon for your base
3)maybe


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Those are the answers I would go with, though I would lean more towards no than yes on the last question.


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I agree with David on this. The restriction on qualifying for racial feats seems quite strict, and getting them via the 'Orc/Elf blood' seems to run counter to that. Not 100% clear, but I'd rule that one as a "No" on any race feats.


The reasoning is that the ability says you count as half-orc for everything but feats and that you gain the half-orc traits.

Orc Blood says you count as orc and human for any effect related to race.

So you might be feeling RAI should be it doesn't count. Which may or not be true. But I was hoping for more support one way or the other to decide if it's possible or not.


Kalindlara wrote:
The NPC wrote:
What book is this from?
Blood of the Beast, page 31. ^_^

Thank you.

Also, this is for Unchained correct?

Silver Crusade Contributor

The NPC wrote:
Also, this is for Unchained correct?

Yes. ^_^


On an unrelated note I wonder how powerful the sorcerer option is for the ancestor eidelon. It seems like a weak casting progression but 2 casters could be fun.


well that at lv 4 you're a CL1 caster with 2 spell slots and 1 spell known. eh
at lv 12 you're now CL5 with 2 1st level spells known and 1 2nd level spell and 2 lv1 slots and 2 lv2 slots.
Then at 20 you're a CL10 with 1 3rd level spell known.

Plus your bloodline only goes up to 1/3/8, so you're not getting much from that either. If going for some sort of skill eidolon it should work okay, but combat wise it's not getting anything good.


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Zolanoteph wrote:
On an unrelated note I wonder how powerful the sorcerer option is for the ancestor eidelon. It seems like a weak casting progression but 2 casters could be fun.

The trick is to play a Kitsune Summoner. Your Eidolon gets a human form, and you take a fox form. Pretend to be your Eidolon's familiar.


The hard part is figuring out how to cast your spells while in fox form.

Silver Crusade

I found this old thread in my search, but it doesn't have the answer I sought. I'll revive it to ask my question here, so as to focus information.

The ancestor eidolon gains the quick rules under the fighter, rogue, or sorcerer simple template.

These quick rules state: +2 to all rolls based on str/dex/cha (for fighter/rogue/sorcerer)

Does this include attack rolls, damage rolls, initiative rolls, and saves?

Because that would be kinda awesome.

(I'm thinking a ratfolk team of ninjas, summoner and eidolon, who use their swarming racial trait to flank everything.)

Silver Crusade

Oh, and for the other question...

As far as I can see, small size, for a race, is stated under 'racial traits'. As such, it should apply to your ancestor eidolon without any further adjustment.

Silver Crusade

Viondar wrote:

I found this old thread in my search, but it doesn't have the answer I sought. I'll revive it to ask my question here, so as to focus information.

The ancestor eidolon gains the quick rules under the fighter, rogue, or sorcerer simple template.

These quick rules state: +2 to all rolls based on str/dex/cha (for fighter/rogue/sorcerer)

Does this include attack rolls, damage rolls, initiative rolls, and saves?

Because that would be kinda awesome.

(I'm thinking a ratfolk team of ninjas, summoner and eidolon, who use their swarming racial trait to flank everything.)

I have the exact same question about the +2 to stat rolls. As far as I can tell, it looks like the answer is yes it applies to attack rolls and damage with the stat. The reason say so is in the text describing the difference between the simple and rebuild rules. It is noted that

"The “quick rules” present a fast way to modify a creature’s
abilities and statistics without having to actually rebuild
the stat block. The “rebuild rules” list the exact changes to
make to the base stat block if you have the time to completely
rebuild it, such as between sessions when you are planning
the next game. The two methods result in creatures of
similar (if not identical) abilities."

Looking at the fighter, for example, you will notice that the rebuild option increases the creature's strength by 4 which results in a str mod increase of 2. The simple template simplifies the stat increase by just stating you add +2 to everything for that stat.

Grand Lodge

Necro-ing this to see if opinions have changed, I'm thinking of playing a Ratfolk Ancestor Summoner, and would really like to understand how Small size is supposed to work.

Also, Biped form lists 2 Claws as Natural attacks. Is there any reason to think the Ancestor Eidolon loses these?


You only get the Evolutions listed under the Subtype's Base Forms, rather than the generic Base Forms. Ancestor doesn't list Claws as a starting Evolution.


a ratfolk ancestor eidolon would be

normal size for the eidolon, have a head, 2 arms, 2 legs, Tinker, Rodent Empathy, Swarming, and Darkvision

Grand Lodge

@LeMoineNoir there's nothing in the Biped Base Form that indicates its two claw attacks are from an Evolution? It sounds like you think they shouldn't have even listed the attacks for the Base Form, since they're always overridden by a Subtype?

Grand Lodge

@Chess Presumably +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Str, 20' move as well?
I'm not sure what you mean by "normal size for the eidolon"? It sounds upthread like you thought it would be small size because of the racial trait, without any of the small size modifiers from the Eidolon rules?

Being specific, I think the stats would end up like this:
Str 14 Dex 14 Con 13 Int 9 Wis 10 Cha 11 20' move, +1 Size Mod

Are you saying I'd have a hulking Medium size Ratfolk with no racial modifiers?
Str 16 Dex 12 Con 13 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11 30' Move

Or that I'd need to take a Small Eidolon and get the racial mods?
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 11 Int 9 Wis 10 Cha 11 20'Move, +1 Size Mod (+2 Size Mod? Racial trait and regular size mod?)


Markov Spiked Chain wrote:
@LeMoineNoir there's nothing in the Biped Base Form that indicates its two claw attacks are from an Evolution? It sounds like you think they shouldn't have even listed the attacks, since they're always overridden by a Subtype?

They were Evolutions with the original, non-Unchained Eidolon Forms. Each Form broke down which Evolutions were free as part of the Form.

Subtype Form overrides the generic Base Form. Otherwise every Biped would start with four arms, and some may have more attacks than they'd even be allowed at level 1. From what I can find, the generic Base Form still lists these in case a Subtype lists a Form, but not any Evolutions.

Grand Lodge

Thanks, that link clarifies the claws. Still confused on how size changes are supposed to work.


Markov Spiked Chain wrote:
@Chess Presumably +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Str, 20' move as well?

NO, I didn't list those cause they don't apply.

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by "normal size for the eidolon"? It sounds upthread like you thought it would be small size because of the racial trait, without any of the small size modifiers from the Eidolon rules?
Quote:

any one of these base forms can be used to make a Small eidolon...

a Medium eidolon can be made Small whenever the summoner can change the eidolon’s evolution pool.

This is what I mean by normal size. The eidolon's size is calculated the same as any other subtype. It will not be small because of your race selected.

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:

Being specific, I think the stats would end up like this:

Str 14 Dex 14 Con 13 Int 9 Wis 10 Cha 11 20' move, +1 Size Mod

Are you saying I'd have a hulking Medium size Ratfolk with no racial modifiers?
Str 16 Dex 12 Con 13 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11 30' Move

Or that I'd need to take a Small Eidolon and get the racial mods?
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 11 Int 9 Wis 10 Cha 11 20'Move, +1 Size Mod (+2 Size Mod? Racial trait and regular size mod?)

Yes you'd either have a medium ratfolk eidolon or a small ratfolk eidolon based on what size you made your eidolon. If you picked orc you could have a small or medium orc eidolon based on what size you wanted your eidolon to be.

Grand Lodge

I'm really confused. Do you not think the attribute modifiers are part of the racial traits the eidolon gets (a human wouldn't get +2 to any attribute, for example)? If so, your reading is so far from mine (and so far from your own reading earlier in the thread) that I can't really reconcile them.


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Quote:
Make the following adjustments and clarifications to the ancestor eidolon subtype. Do not apply racial adjustments to ability scores, speed, size, or languages. An ancestor eidolon cannot take feats or other abilities that would circumvent the archetype's restriction on qualifying for feats based on race. Instead of gaining a +2 on all rolls that use a specific ability score at 4th level, an ancestor eidolon gain the ability increase evolution for that ability score at 4th level. The eidolon gains the evolution a second time for the same ability score at 8th level. Ancestor eidolons with the rogue template gain 1d6 sneak attack at 4th level instead of rounding down "a number of sneak attack dice equal to 1/2 its HD" as specified in the rogue template to 0 dice of sneak attack. The humanoid appearance of an ancestor eidolon retains fantastical elements that clearly mark it as a supernatural creature.

This is what I'm pulling from. As it says, attribute modifiers and movespeed and size are not things that apply to the eidolon.

Grand Lodge

Ah, I totally missed that "clarification"/re-write. That'll require a bigger re-think.

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