Occult classes find themselves incompetent in occult scheme?


Pathfinder Society

1/5

I've been playing PFS for about 2 years, i love occult classes and enjoyed many scenario with OA rules included.

But what i can remember from those scenarios is that the foes and traps in this world always have some abilities to shut down a psychic caster, or make them feeling disabled. Such as endless concentration, mind-affectiong effect reflection, fear aura and.....

When playing an occult scheme scenario, I often find occult classes are somehow unable to solve the problem, a wizard or a bard always works more reliably.

Why a scenario with occult scheme is more likely to make occult classes weakened?

3/5 ** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

Which scenarios are you talking about as the Occult classes were in a bunch of them?

4/5

Yeah, I'm kind of curious too. I would expect little accommodation from prior content (i.e. season 0-6) as they pre-date the occult classes. At a certain point, though, the occult classes gain options that allow them to power through. I mean, Logical Spell feels like a requirement on the psychic, occultist, and spiritualist at a certain point, but the mesmerist has a self-cleanse as a swift action starting at 3, kineticist doesn't care, and medium is only marginally impacted due to their light spell load.

Incidentally, I've found that talismans are particularly good for occult classes due to the Warrior's Courage one, which auto-downgrades a fear effect to shaken.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

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Doesn't Shaken still stop you from satisfying Emotion components?

That said, there are some self-help spells on those lists that don't have emotion components, and the metamagic rod of logical spell also exists.

And they make up for it by being able to cast Silence without neutering themselves. That's a pretty powerful pre-buff going into a boss room.

4/5

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

Doesn't Shaken still stop you from satisfying Emotion components?

That said, there are some self-help spells on those lists that don't have emotion components, and the metamagic rod of logical spell also exists.

And they make up for it by being able to cast Silence without neutering themselves. That's a pretty powerful pre-buff going into a boss room.

Yes, but you can use a potion of remove fear, cast intellect fortress (swift action to suppress emotion and fear effects, no emotion component), or use Logical Spell once you can act. The talisman is to break bigger fear effects so you can get to that point.

3/5 ** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

Serisan wrote:

Yeah, I'm kind of curious too. I would expect little accommodation from prior content (i.e. season 0-6) as they pre-date the occult classes. At a certain point, though, the occult classes gain options that allow them to power through. I mean, Logical Spell feels like a requirement on the psychic, occultist, and spiritualist at a certain point, but the mesmerist has a self-cleanse as a swift action starting at 3, kineticist doesn't care, and medium is only marginally impacted due to their light spell load.

Incidentally, I've found that talismans are particularly good for occult classes due to the Warrior's Courage one, which auto-downgrades a fear effect to shaken.

It depends on what content you're using as the Occult classes are all over the place in regards to mechanics. My favorite Occult mechanic being the Talisman crafter.

1/5

MadScientistWorking wrote:


It depends on what content you're using as the Occult classes are all over the place in regards to mechanics. My favorite Occult mechanic being the Talisman crafter.

Talisman crafter can also be shut down by what normally shuts psychic caster down.

In occult scheme, there seems to be a lot more elements designed to shut down psychic caster, which made occult classes hardly able to be active in explore and combat.
A typical psychic caster displays every weakness of her in occult theme, and that's very occult.

1/5

Serisan wrote:


Yes, but you can use a potion of remove fear, cast intellect fortress (swift action to suppress emotion and fear effects, no emotion component), or use Logical Spell once you can act. The talisman is to break bigger fear effects so you can get to that point.

In PFS play, a wand of remove fear works better than potion, and there is a 2-level spell Placebo Effect, suppress many harmful condition with no emotional component.

but thought component can still become a obvious weak point of psychic caster on certain encounter, especially occult scheme.

4/5

I'm afraid you're providing insufficient information for me to evaluate your claims. What scenarios are you referring to (in spoiler tags, please!) so we can look into the issues?

3/5 5/5

In my experience with PFS, fear -tactics- tend to be more common in pre-occult seasons, while feat -themes- are explored in all seasons.

Cause Fear crops up now and then in the first 5 levels, as well as Dazzling Display. But after those levels, the typical methods of demoralizing are far too inefficient to throw at a party getting fitted for their big boy pants.

3/5 ** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

Rosc wrote:

In my experience with PFS, fear -tactics- tend to be more common in pre-occult seasons, while feat -themes- are explored in all seasons.

Cause Fear crops up now and then in the first 5 levels, as well as Dazzling Display. But after those levels, the typical methods of demoralizing are far too inefficient to throw at a party getting fitted for their big boy pants.

Well on top of that too the only class that would have a hard enough go at it would be the Psychic. All the other ones either have ways around it or don't need to use any components to cast.

3/5 5/5

Plus, if a Psychic is really all that worried about it, they use ttait shenanigans to Logic Spell a Remove Fear without modifying the spell slot. As a standard action too, if the feat I'm thinking about works for psychics.

4/5

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My typical experience (level 19 psychic):

1-7: Potion of Remove Fear in a Spring-Loaded Wrist Sheath (if GMs are ok with that) or in an easily accessible pouch/Handy Haversack.

8+: Logical Remove Fear (if you grabbed the metamagic feat) or somewhere in here, you work in Intellect Fortress 1 to your spells known.

In all of scenarios that I've played, I've not had more than 1 round lost to any fear effects. Most of the time now, I lose no more than a swift action (either Quickened Logical Remove Fear or Int Fortress). If I'm particularly concerned, I use Joyful Rapture.

1/5

Serisan wrote:
I'm afraid you're providing insufficient information for me to evaluate your claims. What scenarios are you referring to (in spoiler tags, please!) so we can look into the issues?

in general im not referring fear tactics, but some special trap or ability only affect psychic caster.

for instance

Spoiler:
S07-09 Blakros Connection

3/5 ** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

dynilath wrote:
Serisan wrote:
I'm afraid you're providing insufficient information for me to evaluate your claims. What scenarios are you referring to (in spoiler tags, please!) so we can look into the issues?

in general im not referring fear tactics, but some special trap or ability only affect psychic caster.

for instance
** spoiler omitted **

That scenario didn't screw over Psychic casters. Move action to center standard to cast normally and given that most Psychic casters don't want to cast in that encounter that forces concentration checks it's a moot point regardless.


Lau Bannenberg wrote:

..,

And they make up for it by being able to cast Silence without neutering themselves. That's a pretty powerful pre-buff going into a boss room.

That is a really good idea.

4/5

While I played that particular scenario on a different character, I would have had +21 concentration at level 9, +25 for casting defensively (CL 9, 26 Int, +2 trait, +4 combat casting, +2 uncanny concentration). I don't have that scenario at hand to see what the DCs were, but I can't imagine failing those checks if I used a move action to center. That said, I had invested heavily into concentration at lower levels to avoid the possibility of failing to concentrate when casting without centering. I've since retrained out of 2 feats (uncanny concentration and combat casting).

The thought component piece is really, really easy to bypass.

Sovereign Court 3/5 **

Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Society Subscriber
dynilath wrote:
Serisan wrote:
I'm afraid you're providing insufficient information for me to evaluate your claims. What scenarios are you referring to (in spoiler tags, please!) so we can look into the issues?

in general im not referring fear tactics, but some special trap or ability only affect psychic caster.

for instance
** spoiler omitted **

I think you are referring to the Mental Static monster ability, which is a low concentration check for any spell with thought components or whenever any caster is concentrating on an active spell. A series of low rolls could be frustrating.

Writers like to use the new monsters just as much as players like to play the new classes.

3/5 ** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

KingOfAnything wrote:
dynilath wrote:
Serisan wrote:
I'm afraid you're providing insufficient information for me to evaluate your claims. What scenarios are you referring to (in spoiler tags, please!) so we can look into the issues?

in general im not referring fear tactics, but some special trap or ability only affect psychic caster.

for instance
** spoiler omitted **

I think you are referring to the Mental Static monster ability, which is a low concentration check for any spell with thought components or whenever any caster is concentrating on an active spell. A series of low rolls could be frustrating.

Writers like to use the new monsters just as much as players like to play the new classes.

Nope. That scenario forces concentration checks for every one in that scenario.

Spoiler:
Primal Magic rules. Concentration checks are required or the spell goes haywire.

4/5

Spoiler:
So, the same DC as casting a spell defensively. Big whoop. You just know what your move action will be if you're not comfortable with the 50% primal magic event chance.

1/5

Gisher wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:

..,

And they make up for it by being able to cast Silence without neutering themselves. That's a pretty powerful pre-buff going into a boss room.
That is a really good idea.

in practice you can hardly do so, because you usually have an arcane or divine caster as team mate.

1/5

Serisan wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
I made it through at level 8 with +17 concentration bonus, it's not a success or disabled, maybe im over empathizing it.

But in occult theme ability like this is far more common.

1/5

KingOfAnything wrote:
Writers like to use the new monsters just as much as players like to play the new classes.

That's .. that's shocking..


dynilath wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:

..,

And they make up for it by being able to cast Silence without neutering themselves. That's a pretty powerful pre-buff going into a boss room.
That is a really good idea.
in practice you can hardly do so, because you usually have an arcane or divine caster as team mate.

Keeping 20' away from my casting teammates wouldn't usually be difficult for the builds I'm contemplating using with this strategy.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

dynilath wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:

..,

And they make up for it by being able to cast Silence without neutering themselves. That's a pretty powerful pre-buff going into a boss room.
That is a really good idea.
in practice you can hardly do so, because you usually have an arcane or divine caster as team mate.

It requires some planning, but I doubt it's unworkable. Mesmerists can be built for melee and a lot of caster PCs will be comfortable to stand 20ft away from that melee.

For a psychic is could be a bit harder, but you could build to go Silent and Invisible, sneak over to the far side of the room, past enemies, and use only spells that don't break Invisibility. Considering how much you may have crippled the enemy, holding back some of your own magic would be an acceptable price to pay.

It's a shame the Human Psychic FCB is soooo good otherwise I'd make that as a Wayang.

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