Agile Scimitar-do I get the two-handed bonus?


Rules Questions


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So normally when swinging a 2 handed weapon, you get an extra 50% of your strength as damage. If I have an agile scimitar and I setting it with 2 hands, do I get half my strength added? Or does it switch to Dex? Or is bonus half lost entirely?


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Quote:
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with an agile weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.


Assuming your GM allows you to place Agile on a Scimitar (normally not allowed as Agile can only be placed on a weapon with the finesse quality, and scimitars don't have that quality), you would use your dex if I recall as you replace str with it.

EDIT: Nevermind, Johnny's got it.


No, you do not. You only get your Dexterity modifier. The extra 50% is a benefit of Strength. Scimitars also cannot be agile. They aren't weapons you can Weapon Finesse. Abilities or Feats that allow you to don't change that.

And double ninja'd. Nice.


Assuming you mean the agile property:

agile wrote:
This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons. This weapon special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.

First scimitar is not inherently finessable so can't be agile (without GM fiat).

Second you add zero strength to damage, so +50% of zero is zero, and agile specifically calls out you only add your dex, not dex and a half if two handing.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's funny, I almost asked last night, but found that info then. Totally forgot today lol. Thanks guys

Liberty's Edge

dragonhunterq wrote:
Assuming you mean the agile property:
agile wrote:
This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons. This weapon special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.
First scimitar is not inherently finessable so can't be agile (without GM fiat).

strike what I said. Misread. :)

Also, you can use a scimitar with Weapon Finesse if you have the Dervish Dance feat from the Inner Sea World Guide.


RedDogMT wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
Assuming you mean the agile property:
agile wrote:
This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons. This weapon special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.
First scimitar is not inherently finessable so can't be agile (without GM fiat).

The Agile property does not require that the weapon be finessable. It says that the user must have weapon finesse to gain the benefit of the extra damage from Dexterity. However, the property would work better on a finessable weapon.

Also, you can use a scimitar with Weapon Finesse if you have the Dervish Dance feat from the Inner Sea World Guide.

Survey says!

Quote:
Requirement: This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.

Oooh, so close

Liberty's Edge

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Johnnycat93 wrote:
RedDogMT wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
Assuming you mean the agile property:
agile wrote:
This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons. This weapon special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.
First scimitar is not inherently finessable so can't be agile (without GM fiat).

The Agile property does not require that the weapon be finessable. It says that the user must have weapon finesse to gain the benefit of the extra damage from Dexterity. However, the property would work better on a finessable weapon.

Also, you can use a scimitar with Weapon Finesse if you have the Dervish Dance feat from the Inner Sea World Guide.

Survey says!

Quote:
Requirement: This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.
Oooh, so close

Survey says!

Dont be a jerk.


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RedDogMT wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
Assuming you mean the agile property:
agile wrote:
This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons. This weapon special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.
First scimitar is not inherently finessable so can't be agile (without GM fiat).

strike what I said. Misread. :)

Also, you can use a scimitar with Weapon Finesse if you have the Dervish Dance feat from the Inner Sea World Guide.

Except that if you have Dervish Dance, the Agile property becomes superfluous.


And the scimitar itself still isn't a weapon you can finesse. You just have something that lets you use Dex to attack. No where does it say "scimitars can be used with Weapon Finesse"


{. . .}

When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. {. . .}

That means you are finessing it(*). However, it still makes the Agile property superfluous.

(*)This isn't 100% clear -- since the quoted text says "melee attack and damage rolls" and not "melee attack and/or damage rolls", arguably you have to do both or neither, which would limit you in the corner case in which your Dexterity modifier is slightly greater than your Strength modifier, but two-handing it with Power Attack gets you more damage boost even with your lower Strength modifier. This corner case is more likely to happen for somebody using an Elven Curve Blade (for which no Dexterity-to-Damage feat currently exists, and only Unchained Rogue has a class feature that gives this), but it is at least a theoretical possibility for a Scimitar.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

{. . .}

When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. {. . .}
That means you are finessing it(*).

Weapon Finesse lets you use DEX for attack rolls. It does not follow that anytime you use DEX for attack rolls you are using Weapon Finesse. In this case it seems that it is Dervish Dance that is granting you DEX on attack rolls with your scimitar, not Weapon Finesse.


Strict Rules As Written, you're right, but I think Rules As Intended, Dervish Dance was intended to enable Weapon Finesse on the Scimitar.

Sovereign Court

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Let's look at mithral armor for an analogy. FAQ

There it's made clear that there's a difference between the properties of the item in itself, and the properties as experienced by someone wearing it. A medium mithral armor can't have light-only properties, but you can use class abilities that can only be used in light armor.

Likewise, a scimitar is not a finesseable weapon so it can't be enchanted with Agile, but you can wield it with finesse because you have special skills.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

Strict Rules As Written, you're right, but I think Rules As Intended, Dervish Dance was intended to enable Weapon Finesse on the Scimitar.

There are classes that grant DDance without having Weapon Finesse though...


Off-topic, but that was a solid sequence of ninja'd answers. Not quite awe inspiring, but impressive nonetheless.


BadBird wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

Strict Rules As Written, you're right, but I think Rules As Intended, Dervish Dance was intended to enable Weapon Finesse on the Scimitar.

There are classes that grant DDance without having Weapon Finesse though...

I found:

Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler, but since Swashbuckler Finesse is a superset of Weapon Finesse (including counting as Weapon Finesse for feat prerequisites), this doesn't really count, with the possible exception that you might run into a DM that won't accept it for a prestige class prerequisite.

Dawnflower Dervish Bard -- okay, this one's weird, but since Dervish Dance explicitly gives you both Dexterity-to-Attack and Dexterity-to-Damage (but both only with a Scimitar), it works, but won't provoke any arguments about whether you qualify for anything that requires Weapon Finesse.


i thought scimitars were finessable


^Normally, they are not. Dervish Dance specifically gets you around this. This means that unless you get Scimitar finessability from an archetype such as Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler, or get Dervish Dance prerequisite-free from an archetype such as Dawnflower Dervish Bard, or somehow get 2 feats at once at a level greater than 1st, you will have Weapon Finesse but not yet Dervish Dance, and be unable to use Weapon Finesse with the Scimitar. This sort of makes sense -- you have to train for a little while with a lighter weapon to learn how to finesse it, and with a Scimitar to be able to use it at all, before you can finally finesse the Scimitar.


That Sarenrae Anchorite thing also grants no-prerequisite Dervish Dance. Kind of a cool Prestige Class, but like most of them it takes too long to get rolling. It's like they're forever in denial that you start a PrC at level 6 minimum.


^Oops, I forgot to search prestige classes. It's easy to miss on the www.d20pfsrd.com version, because their formatting is messed up (things that are options of Credence are formatted as separate prestige class features . . . except for Dervish Dance).


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^Yeah, I only really noticed it yesterday, by accident. And was pleasantly surprised to find a PrC that was a bit more flexible and not totally underwhelming. Something like a Sorcerer/Anchorite might actually be kind of cool, and even kind of useful, with Prestigious Spellcaster. Along with the usual divine warrior suspects.

...of course, they have to jerk you around with a 'Credence-Tax' if you want to be able to use your main ability anywhere but outside in the sun, because ^@$#. I wonder how many people just stop reading at the 'outdoors' condition; I know I almost did.

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