I personally really like the class. The formatting is very impressive IMO. I did have a question though, for the meta-hex what meta magic feat do you foresee will apply for this? I would imagine that persistent spell would be a top pick.
Persistent, Empower, Intensify, Extended...there are several options to go with them that are useful 1-2 level increases.
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1. For the Vexer, not really.
Just for the record, the way the question is answered, the answer would be "yes". Indeed, the idea was that one should only turn an idea into an actual class after answering every single question with "yes". Also, #3 is only about what the ACG calls "primary class features"*, class feature that alter the way you actually play (like your Hexstrike feature). So stuff like capstones or Danger Sense variations wouldn't count.
*) "Primary features are a signature of the class (...) Note that while primary features tend to be isolated to just one class, secondary features might appear in multiple classes."
[Taking] Prestige Classes (...) was fairly common of most classes, not just the Cleric. Fighters, Wizards, Sorcerers, Rogue (...)
I presumed as much, but still thanks. And for all those classes, most of the strength comes from a single class feature - spells, bonus feats, spells, spells, and trapfinding, respectively. Yeah, I'm calling most of the 3.X classes ill-designed.
[Prestige classes] acted a lot more like how Archetypes do now.
For a well designed class, using the vanilla class should be a perfectly fine, interesting, and powerful enough option. If prestige classes and/or archetypes are upgrades rathen then specializing sidegrades, there's something wrong with the design.
What can a Druid do, and do better, than a Cleric with a special domain that gives it an animal companion and the Beast Shape spell chain as domain spells?
Animal form all day long. The Beast Shape spells have a min/level duration (and since they aren't on the cleric list, you could prepare them only in domain slots).
The Brawler was another one..... really could have been handled with either a Monk or Fighter archetype and definitely doesn't have enough meat on the bones IMO
The funny part is that Brawler is a Fighter archetype! Speaking of funny parts, do you realize that since western style (i.e. non-kung fu) martial artist is well established in fiction and since the class has has 9 archetypes (that all affect playstyle), the brawler passes your test?
The 'Cleric' should be the Warpriest if you see what I mean?!
BUT THEN WHO WOULD BE HEALER? YOU CAN'T PLAY WITHOUT A HEALER!!!!
@ChaiGuy: Weapon Training would definitely strengthen the hybrid character (although I'm not sure it even should be a hybrid class rather then a regular base class). How about something that interacts with the runes? Like, the elemental resistance rune also comes with a bit of elemental bonus damage on weapon hits. I think I have to re-read how your runes exactly work, but I think something that strengthens both offense and defense at the same time would fit your conceptual idea.
In case you're interested, I am currently working on a Wizard/Fighter hybrid class based on the "weapon school" idea I mentioned earlier. I'm still lacking a bunch of school powers and bonus spells, though - coming up with a distinct concept for 13 weapon groups (plus archetypes for firearm, monk, and elf weapons) isn't easy. Especially for boring groups like heavy blades.
I agree with you on the Shaman, Brawler, and Warpriest, though a lot of the change in focus early into the design of the Shaman and Warpriest is what I think I do not care for as much.
As for the Alchemist, I still think it would have been better overall to present it as options, even and especially science feeling options to multiple classes rather than making a whole new class. Id say the same thing with the Summoner. How much cooler would it be to have a Druid with a semi-permanent, altered pet, or a Cleric, or even Paladin rather than an Animal Companion, or a Bloodrager, Sorcerer, Witch, or Wizards that awakens and expiriments on their Familiar, making it into something else.
That opens up a lot more "archetypes" and concepts in my opinion for a lot less work.
RE: the Alchemist...In my test.... the Alchemist gets full marks for 'relatability'..... The mad scientist, Dr Jeckyl, Dr Frankenstein.... etc
And much like a real life chemist who can branch off into all manner of specialisms (eg biochemist, materials science, electrochemistry, nuclear chemsitry, toxicology, organic chemistry... etc) there is loads of meat on the bones for archetypes!
Loads of good cultural stuff!!
The one thing I'm not as keen on is that it almost comes across as a fighter who has spent some time in the lab doing experiments.
I see it as almost as a D6 class, but I can see why they have it as a D8.
I really dig the alchemist (although I think it has some glaring issues), but a more caster-y d6 alchemist type thing would be really cool. Though that might make a good hybrid class, since in general Paizo seems fairly conservative about archetypes that change up where classss fit on that sliding scale. There's only a handful and most of them are woefully basic.
@ChaiGuy: Weapon Training would definitely strengthen the hybrid character (although I'm not sure it even should be a hybrid class rather then a regular base class). How about something that interacts with the runes? Like, the elemental resistance rune also comes with a bit of elemental bonus damage on weapon hits. I think I have to re-read how your runes exactly work, but I think something that strengthens both offense and defense at the same time would fit your conceptual idea.
In case you're interested, I am currently working on a Wizard/Fighter hybrid class based on the "weapon school" idea I mentioned earlier. I'm still lacking a bunch of school powers and bonus spells, though - coming up with a distinct concept for 13 weapon groups (plus archetypes for firearm, monk, and elf weapons) isn't easy. Especially for boring groups like heavy blades.
Regarding the runes, I don't yet have a full list of runes, which makes a complete analysis of the class impossible at the moment, but as far as how the runes work I had originally planned for them to have 2 types.
The first type is activated when the character feels it is advantageous to do so. This, in the few samples I made are swift actions, when the rune is activated the rune disappears (so they are one use runes), but you gain the benefit of the rune, some of which last for a moderate duration.
The second type of rune can be used if a certain trigger event happens, then if you have an immediate action, your character can activate the rune (which also disappears and conveys it's powers to the character like the first type).
I did like the wizard / fighter hybrid you mentioned earlier and I'm interested in seeing more of that hybrid class.
The Rune Kight's pool, currently it is set up that the ability is usable a set number of times per day (1/2 RK + int mod), but would it be better if it was a pool of points perhaps 4 + int mod with 2 extra points per RK level? With a point pool the armor runes would cost perhaps cost 1 point, Advanced Runes would cost 2 points and Master Runes would cost 3 points.
Armor Runes:
Rune of Infiltration
You may expend this rune as a swift action to gain an insight bonus to stealth and perception checks equal to 2 + 1/2 your caster level for 10 min per caster level.
Rune of Purity lesser
Trigger: You are forced to attempt a save vs poison or disease, you may as a immediate action you may expend this rune to gain a bonus on the save equal to 1/2 (minimum 1) your RK level.
Rune of the Acrobat:
You may expend this rune as a swift action to gain an insight bonus to acrobatics and escape artist checks equal to 2 + 1/2 your caster level for 10 min per caster level.
Rune of the Athlete:
You may expend this rune as a swift action to gain an insight bonus to climb and swim checks equal to 2 + 1/2 your caster level for 10 min per caster level.
Rune of Safe Landing:
You may expend this rune if you begin to fall, if you do your rate of falling instantly changes to a mere 60 feet per round / caster level (equivalent to the end of a fall from a few feet), and you take no damage upon landing while the spell is in effect. When the spell duration expires, a normal rate of falling resumes.
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[Taking] Prestige Classes (...) was fairly common of most classes, not just the Cleric. Fighters, Wizards, Sorcerers, Rogue (...)I presumed as much, but still thanks. And for all those classes, most of the strength comes from a single class feature - spells, bonus feats, spells, spells, and trapfinding, respectively. Yeah, I'm calling most of the 3.X classes ill-designed.
[Prestige classes] acted a lot more like how Archetypes do now.For a well designed class, using the vanilla class should be a perfectly fine, interesting, and powerful enough option. If prestige classes and/or archetypes are upgrades rathen then specializing sidegrades, there's something wrong with the design.
It reallly just comes down to preference. Generally speaking, a lot of Prestige Classes where aimed at focusing on an aspect of a base class by trading out other things instead, sort of like a Specialist Wizard in PF. Others helped to bridge the gap for multiclassing classes that by themselves fell behind, such as the Mystic Theurge. Archetypes really did not exist, though there where a handfull later on and through unofficial products, so really Prestige Classes where the main way to offer more diversity to the base class, but where not at all required, either to do that or to keep up in power. They where just an option.
Generally speaking, it wasnt the Prestige Classes that where problematic <broken>, as much as combining multiple Prestige Classes and base classes to get features working together that had not been intended to do so, which is something that still exists in PF readily.
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@ChaiGuy: Weapon Training would definitely strengthen the hybrid character (although I'm not sure it even should be a hybrid class rather then a regular base class). How about something that interacts with the runes? Like, the elemental resistance rune also comes with a bit of elemental bonus damage on weapon hits. I think I have to re-read how your runes exactly work, but I think something that strengthens both offense and defense at the same time would fit your conceptual idea.
In case you're interested, I am currently working on a Wizard/Fighter hybrid class based on the "weapon school" idea I mentioned earlier. I'm still lacking a bunch of school powers and bonus spells, though - coming up with a distinct concept for 13 weapon groups (plus archetypes for firearm, monk, and elf weapons) isn't easy. Especially for boring groups like heavy blades.
Regarding the runes, I don't yet have a full list of runes, which makes a complete analysis of the class impossible at the moment, but as far as how the runes work I had originally planned for them to have 2 types.
The first type is activated when the character feels it is advantageous to do so. This, in the few samples I made are swift actions, when the rune is activated the rune disappears (so they are one use runes), but you gain the benefit of the rune, some of which last for a moderate duration.
The second type of rune can be used if a certain trigger event happens, then if you have an immediate action, your character can activate the rune (which also disappears and conveys it's powers to the character like the first type).
I did like the wizard / fighter hybrid you mentioned earlier and I'm interested in seeing more of that hybrid class.
** spoiler omitted **...
Have you considered having them be able to create Spellscribed Armor as if they had the Craft Magical Arms and Armor feat and Scribe Scroll?
Have you considered having them be able to create Spellscribed Armor as if they had the Craft Magical Arms and Armor feat and Scribe Scroll?@ChaiGuy: Weapon Training would definitely strengthen the hybrid character (although I'm not sure it even should be a hybrid class rather then a regular base class). How about something that interacts with the runes? Like, the elemental resistance rune also comes with a bit of elemental bonus damage on weapon hits. I think I have to re-read how your runes exactly work, but I think something that strengthens both offense and defense at the same time would fit your conceptual idea.
In case you're interested, I am currently working on a Wizard/Fighter hybrid class based on the "weapon school" idea I mentioned earlier. I'm still lacking a bunch of school powers and bonus spells, though - coming up with a distinct concept for 13 weapon groups (plus archetypes for firearm, monk, and elf weapons) isn't easy. Especially for boring groups like heavy blades.
Regarding the runes, I don't yet have a full list of runes, which makes a complete analysis of the class impossible at the moment, but as far as how the runes work I had originally planned for them to have 2 types.
The first type is activated when the character feels it is advantageous to do so. This, in the few samples I made are swift actions, when the rune is activated the rune disappears (so they are one use runes), but you gain the benefit of the rune, some of which last for a moderate duration.
The second type of rune can be used if a certain trigger event happens, then if you have an immediate action, your character can activate the rune (which also disappears and conveys it's powers to the character like the first type).
I did like the wizard / fighter hybrid you mentioned earlier and I'm interested in seeing more of that hybrid class.
** spoiler omitted **...
Spellscribed armor sounds great, but to be honest, I'm not sure what it is and I'm not having any luck finding it. Would you mind providing a link or description of this kind of armor? Thanks :)
I really dig the alchemist (although I think it has some glaring issues), but a more caster-y d6 alchemist type thing would be really cool. Though that might make a good hybrid class, since in general Paizo seems fairly conservative about archetypes that change up where classss fit on that sliding scale. There's only a handful and most of them are woefully basic.
I agree a D6 would be v.good.... unfortunately that horse has bolted IMO... with the current set up I just cant see how they could create a D6 alchemist without completely ruining the D8 ??
Arcane spellcasters the Summoner class, a 2/3 level caster focused on conjuration spells, specifically summoning monsters. How about a divine 2/3 caster that focused on transmutation spells, specifically polymorphing himself into other forms related to his deity. Let's call him... The Converter.
The Converter would be a perfect polar opposite: the Summoner brings monsters to his side to protect his allies while the Converter would turn himself into a monster to protect himself and his allies.
^Wouldn't that just be a divine version of Synthesist Summoner?
^Wouldn't that just be a divine version of Synthesist Summoner?
Syntheticists are still technically two distinct creatures, the summoner and eidolon fused into one being. The class is still conjuration focused, though. The Converter, however, would be one class. They're just in a different form right now.
Alright Here's a leap.
Arcane version of the occultist, mixed with psychic detective investigator.
Constantine
I want to see a hybrid class that uses the occultist, especially when combined with mundane classes. I just love the mechanics behind implements and can totally see something like a rogue with a set of msgical lockpicks that can jam doors, put down silent alarms and open up walls as well as doors.
I want to see a magus//monk that fights using magic, not necessarily using spells to fight. Maybe war hexes? Some could be like Jedi, some could be like energy benders, some would have auras for offense and defense and debuffing, there would be swift action and immediate action buffs and defenses, some would use lots of minor magic to buff their allies.
^Maybe backport Starfinder's Solarion to Pathfinder?
Is there a Starfinder SRD already?
^Not yet, but just wait a bit less than a year.
Speaking of somewhat less than a year, Ultimate Wilderness (look at the first entry in the list of contents) is going to get some people on this thread to be very happy.
Wow! Finally!!! :-D
I want to see a magus//monk that fights using magic, not necessarily using spells to fight. Maybe war hexes? Some could be like Jedi, some could be like energy benders, some would have auras for offense and defense and debuffing, there would be swift action and immediate action buffs and defenses, some would use lots of minor magic to buff their allies.
There is a Magus archetype that accomplishes the whole Magic thing (the Esoteric), but the whole SU abilities with Hexes would be a Monk/Witch and not a Monk/Magus.
And quite frankly, that's something that could be done as an Archetype for my Vexer class; thanks for the idea!
^Not yet, but just wait a bit less than a year.
Speaking of somewhat less than a year, Ultimate Wilderness (look at the first entry in the list of contents) is going to get some people on this thread to be very happy.
The shifter, huh? Interesting ^_^
Yet... we don't if it's a hybrid class (druid/oracle???) or a regular base class like the Vigilante.
(Hey, it IS a topic about hybrid classes, so :P )
Presumably the Shifter is something else in the "Nature magic" end of the pool to go with the Druid, Ranger, and Hunter. My guess about what the class would be it's like the Hunter, except focused on wild shape rather than the animal companion.
I think is been confirmed to be a martial class, with no more than limited (possibly no?) spellcasting?
"Nature Paladin" has been used as a describer, although I am skeptical it will look like an actual Paladin-Druid Hybrid mechanically.
Presumably the Shifter is something else in the "Nature magic" end of the pool to go with the Druid, Ranger, and Hunter. My guess about what the class would be it's like the Hunter, except focused on wild shape rather than the animal companion.
I have a feeling that class is going to be a neutered version of my Therianthrope Ranger archetype.
^Not yet, but just wait a bit less than a year.
Speaking of somewhat less than a year, Ultimate Wilderness (look at the first entry in the list of contents) is going to get some people on this thread to be very happy.
Sounds like the class from Eberron. If it's a combination of anything, it's a combination of a were beast and a barbarian. The changeling was a combination of a doppelganger and a master of disguise.
Both great classes, but possibly beyond the scope of this topic.
Presumably the Shifter is something else in the "Nature magic" end of the pool to go with the Druid, Ranger, and Hunter. My guess about what the class would be it's like the Hunter, except focused on wild shape rather than the animal companion.I have a feeling that class is going to be a neutered version of my Therianthrope Ranger archetype.
Mechanically, Druid/Ranger hybrid with full BAB and no more than 4/9 spellcasting would make sense.
In terms of flavor, this sounds like it could be the way to go to get Beorn (better than Ursine Wildsoul Vigilante, unless you need to be a ManBearPig in an urban or at least suburban intrigue campaign).
Barbarian//Druid, Full BAB, 4/9 casting, wildshape and rage combo (Nature's Fury?), 4+ skills, Good Fort?
Barbarian//Druid, Full BAB, 4/9 casting, wildshape and rage combo (Nature's Fury?), 4+ skills, Good Fort?
That sounds about right but what gives me pause is that this exact thing is something that could be done as a bloodrager archetype pretty easily, and an actual new class will likely need to be more unique.
^Bloodrager archetype = Greenrager. Unfortunately it doesn't add any Druid spells except for Summon Nature's Ally I - IV.
Rage shape might be a really new mechanic, maybe with something like rage powers/evolutions, and scaling natural attacks like the monk's unarmed strikes.
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That sounds about right but what gives me pause is that this exact thing is something that could be done as a bloodrager archetype pretty easily, and an actual new class will likely need to be more unique.Barbarian//Druid, Full BAB, 4/9 casting, wildshape and rage combo (Nature's Fury?), 4+ skills, Good Fort?
Why.
The need for absolute uniqueness has never been established.
I think was already done in the 3.5 days, but what about a divine caster that uses a "spellbook"?
I think was already done in the 3.5 days, but what about a divine caster that uses a "spellbook"?
Yep, that's a thing. Think it was in Ultimate Intrigue.
Why.
The need for absolute uniqueness has never been established.
What classes exist that could be done easily as an archetype for a different class?
Like "Barbarian//Druid, Full BAB, 4/9 casting, wildshape and rage combo (Nature's Fury?), 4+ skills, Good Fort?" is literally "Bloodrager, different spell list, alter bloodrage" you could fit it on a single page of a Player Companion book.
I think was already done in the 3.5 days, but what about a divine caster that uses a "spellbook"?Yep, that's a thing. Think it was in Ultimate Intrigue.
Living Grimoire Inquisitor, from Horror Adventurers. Not sure why it is in Horror Adventures, since using your spellbook as your main weapon sounds more funny (potentially Monty Python kind of funny) than horrifying.
Note that True Silvered Throne Shaman (from Occult Origins) looks superficially similar, but doesn't count because the prayer book doesn't contain specific spells, and is more like a Bonded Object that replaces the standard Shaman's Spirit Animal.
With Knowledge-based buffing, like +1 to something per 10 of the Knowledge check. The 3.5 Artificer had something like that.
Buff as a Standard Action at 1st, Move Action at 6th, and Swift Action at 12th, with a couple types of buff at 1st and more learned every even level or so.
Then, at 6th level, you could double buff, and at 12th level, triple buff.
And also provide other options for standard, move, and swift actions so there are important, significant decisions to make every round.
I could see this as part of a BAB +1/2, d6 HD, Good Will saves, 9th level divine caster with 6+ skill points, maybe 4+ if Int-based divine casting. Using a "prayer book" instead of knowing all divine spells. Maybe using "Arcanist-style" spell prep.
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Not sure if it's already been posted, but Samurai x Unchained Monk for some sort of 'Zen Swordmaster' or 'Bladed Mystic'. Just thinking of the term "Flurry of Blades" or "Bladed Flurry" fills my imagination with Samurai Jack-styled swordfights :)
Also slightly off-topic, but more Tian Xia-inspired class alternatives, like a Wizard-alternative called Shugenja.
Not sure if it's already been posted, but Samurai x Unchained Monk for some sort of 'Zen Swordmaster' or 'Bladed Mystic'. Just thinking of the term "Flurry of Blades" or "Bladed Flurry" fills my imagination with Samurai Jack-styled swordfights :)
Also slightly off-topic, but more Tian Xia-inspired class alternatives, like a Wizard-alternative called Shugenja.
+1 to samurai jack-tion
Probably said before, but a wizard/cleric hybrid. Squishy divine caster.
Also Druid(wild shaping)/martial
Not sure if it's already been posted, but Samurai x Unchained Monk for some sort of 'Zen Swordmaster' or 'Bladed Mystic'. Just thinking of the term "Flurry of Blades" or "Bladed Flurry" fills my imagination with Samurai Jack-styled swordfights :)
Also slightly off-topic, but more Tian Xia-inspired class alternatives, like a Wizard-alternative called Shugenja.
Just play an Unchained Monk with Ascetic Style and a sword.
A class that would be cool to play would be a Fighter/Sorcerer. A character that uses his energy to increase the power of any weapon that they are using and can give it some cool effects. Such as having a spear turning into a dragon made of fire as it passes through an enemy dealing massive damage and adding a burn status to boot.
How about a Fighter/Mage hybrid whose spells mostly boost the caster? The class would be able to cast stoneskin and flight on himself, but not on others.
Or how about the Transformer, who specializes in transforming others>
A barbarian/inquisitor combo called the zealot. It would be a defense-based class.
BAB +3/4, 1d12 HD, Good Fort and Will, 4+ skills, maybe 4/9 divine caster, judgment-like defensive boosts, rage-like defensive stance and powers, paladin-like swift-action self-healing, maybe the ability to absorb allies' wounds, Con mod added to CMD, Bodyguard bonus feats, maybe a combo tank/martial battlefield controller.
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Spellscribed armor sounds great, but to be honest, I'm...Have you considered having them be able to create Spellscribed Armor as if they had the Craft Magical Arms and Armor feat and Scribe Scroll?@ChaiGuy: Weapon Training would definitely strengthen the hybrid character (although I'm not sure it even should be a hybrid class rather then a regular base class). How about something that interacts with the runes? Like, the elemental resistance rune also comes with a bit of elemental bonus damage on weapon hits. I think I have to re-read how your runes exactly work, but I think something that strengthens both offense and defense at the same time would fit your conceptual idea.
In case you're interested, I am currently working on a Wizard/Fighter hybrid class based on the "weapon school" idea I mentioned earlier. I'm still lacking a bunch of school powers and bonus spells, though - coming up with a distinct concept for 13 weapon groups (plus archetypes for firearm, monk, and elf weapons) isn't easy. Especially for boring groups like heavy blades.
Regarding the runes, I don't yet have a full list of runes, which makes a complete analysis of the class impossible at the moment, but as far as how the runes work I had originally planned for them to have 2 types.
The first type is activated when the character feels it is advantageous to do so. This, in the few samples I made are swift actions, when the rune is activated the rune disappears (so they are one use runes), but you gain the benefit of the rune, some of which last for a moderate duration.
The second type of rune can be used if a certain trigger event happens, then if you have an immediate action, your character can activate the rune (which also disappears and conveys it's powers to the character like the first type).
I did like the wizard / fighter hybrid you mentioned earlier and I'm interested in seeing more of that hybrid class.
** spoiler omitted **...
Aaaa sorry for being so late! Been forced to focus on life stuff and occasional roleplay, forgot about General Discussion entirely. There We Go. It's at the bottom of the Armor section.
Spellscribed armor soundsHave you considered having them be able to create Spellscribed Armor as if they had the Craft Magical Arms and Armor feat and Scribe Scroll?@ChaiGuy:
Snip
The second type of rune can be used if a certain trigger event happens, then if you have an immediate action, your character can activate the rune (which also disappears and conveys it's powers to the character like the first type).I did like the wizard / fighter hybrid you mentioned earlier and I'm interested in seeing more of that hybrid class.
** spoiler omitted **...
...
Aaaa sorry for being so late! Been forced to focus on life stuff and occasional roleplay, forgot about General Discussion entirely. There We Go. It's at the bottom of the Armor section.So a shield of shield would be a single use item. It sounds like you might, or not, be able to reinscribe it at the full price. Can cost be at the minimum, or as the caster chooses, caster level?
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So a shield of shield would be a single use item. It sounds like you might, or not, be able to reinscribe it at the full price. Can cost be at the minimum, or as the caster chooses, caster level?
I believe that it works exactly as scrolls do, except you just need to be wearing the armour. You can reinscribe too, because the armour itself definitely isn't consumed. You can also inscribe more than one spell on armour, one spell per point of AC.