Tweaks to Pathfinder Deities


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


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Those we like and those we don't- pulling this out of the "least favorite deities" thread, since even deities we LIKE sometimes benefit from the odd tap with the adjustment sledgehammer...

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

Hmm

I'm gonna suggest changes for some gods I like too, that I think would make them generally more likable not just the gods I hate.

Pharasma: since people complain about her being boring/not doing anything/being unimportant to the setting.

I think the solution without deleting her, would be to put something in her backstory, to show her wrath. I've toyed with in the passed making her part of a double act, she's the god of birth and fate, and the other half being the god of death and judgement. Then perhaps the other half became corrupt so she destroyed him and took his domains. Or stripped him of all his power and banished him.

The other option would be to put a god in her passed that tried to steal souls from her so she flat destroyed them completely. To show she is important to protecting the grand design.

Zyphus: Make him Pharasma's ex that she stripped of all power, so now is has this ridiculous none domain of accidental death. Or make him the ghost of the god she killed when they invaded the boneyard.

Erastil: Move him into the cities and metropolis, forget about the little village vibe and promote community and neighborliness in the big cities.

Irori: make him neutral not lawful and let him get over the gods that ascended through the starstone. because currently I see him as the god of petty b@+~*y people who say they discovered themselves and become enlightened on there gap year.

Sarenrea and Iomadea: I think there fix can be tied together. Have Iomadea's twistedness be do to Asmodeus and have Sarenrea discover this and redeem her, thus making her the true redeemer and then have Iomadea use her worshippers to help straighten out the cult of the dawnflower.

Cole Deschain wrote:

Cayden Cailean: Either make him a benevolently-intentioned Chaotic Neutral or play up his blackout event as something he regrets the criminal irresponsibility of and move his church out of bars and into the community more. They can still be brewers- they wouldn't have a god without booze, after all- but be less about the party, more about putting your feet up with a single beer at the end of the day. And maybe make a point that Cayden himself DOESN'T drink anymore- maybe add a bit where they pour one onto the ground to represent his own turning away from it as a cautionary thing BEFORE any big party kicks off. That note of regret and self-control would also give him something that other Chaotic Good deities do NOT do better and with more style.

Norgorber: Strip-mine him for the stuff that's fun (the Anaphexia, the Skinsaw Cult) and send him back to the factory. Or make him Lawful Evil and give him a parasitic relationship with the Church of Abadar where his entire faith exists secretly inside of Abadar's church hierarchy. Just to be jerks. I know that's meant to be Ghlaunder's schtick, but the god of secrets having ANY sort of public church oropen worship always struck me as insane. And why Abadar? Because his cities allow the secrets, wealth, and victim pool that Norgberites so enjoy to be collected in one place. And like all good parasites, I think Norgorber's faithful would do all in their power to insure that Abadar's church stayed healthy.

Torag: Pretty much beyond redemption as he is. I'd junk him entirely, and give the Dwarves a matriarchal figure to lead their pantheon- and make her a fire deity while I was at it. Not a goddess of the forge, but a goddess of the fires that make such creation possible. Less order and toil, more creative passion.

Gorum: Either make him evil (which is kinda boring) or take away his Chaotic Alignment and make him a world-weary deity amused by civilization's constant blather about seeking peace when they all resort to war so readily. He'd still love a good fight, but would be less about promoting conflict and more about getting ready for it.

Thamirr Gixx: Junk him. Give Halflings a neutral evil god of retribution-play up their genuine grievances, then use it to lever halflings into evil actions.

Up next...some tweaks to deities I basically like just fine...


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Erastil- While he basically works for me as-is, there's no denying his focus on sticking in your little agrarian community makes him a poor choice for the average adventurer, despite being the "Archery God.' I'd give him some of Abadar's concern with roads, since, as Ulysses likes to blather in Lonesome Road, roads can and do make communities viable. So keeping the lifelines of small rural communities open can be a good reason to go off hunting monsters in the hinterlands.

Gozreh- Another one I like just fine- but the wrathful aspects can be tuned up a bit if you or your plyersregard Gozreh as "just a boring druid deity." Hurricanes, earthquakes, flash floods, tornadoes, and tsunami may be many things, but they're definitely not boring. And it's not like there's some good alignment getting int he way of the odd bit of fury.


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I'd make Asmodeus even more gay then he already is.

Also Ragathiel, to create tension.


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Going to chime in with an edited version of my first large post from the Least Favorite Deities thread, edited to tone down the Least Favorite part and have more emphasis on tweaks (including pulling in a few scattered other ones):

Lawful Good

  • Erastil: Rather than gripe about his original portrayal or the retcon(s) thereof, I'm going to make a story out of both: He tried to promote family integrity, not realizing until too late that an awful lot of people would take that the wrong way. So now, he has tried to repair this sin within his following, but with only partial success. Some people just won't get the message.
  • Iomedae (who gives you trick questions, and if you answer in a way she doesn't like, she has her host blast you with a dangerous dose of scratchy violins, screeching piccolos, nauseating trumpets, etc.): Don't change anything just yet. She started out Good, but is now cracking under the pressure. Time for a Fall of the Righteous AP . . . .
  • Torag, Dammerich, and Ragathiel: These are poster children for a need for the Pathfinder Campaign Setting to keep the planes at multiples of 22.5° (in their particular instance, Arcadia in the PlaneScape setting); since it didn't, we need something like details of border areas between the various Outer Planes (South Heaven/North Axis, anyone?).
  • Vildeis: By legend carried down with admittedly rather lossy compression, she stabbed her own eyes out because she couldn't bear to see Evil. Although at first sight, this seems to betray a major inability to cope. But (after seeing some more posts in the Least Favorite Deities thread, I got an idea how to make a story out of this as well. What if it wasn't just that Vildeis saw Evil, but the same Evil that turned Doubral into Zon-Kuthon nearly took over Vildeis (maybe even right after she saw it take over Doubral), and she was powerless to interrupt its subsequent entry into her except by stabbing out her own eyes? Having interrupted its entry, she barely held onto her sanity, and is now zealous in the extreme to eradicate this Evil and everything like it.

Lawful Neutral

  • Abadar: How do you have Capitalism and the steamrolling of less militarily and technology advanced peoples and not be Evil? As with Torag, Dammerich, and Ragathiel, he is another poster child for a need for a plane at a multiple of 22.5° (in this case, Acheron in the PlaneScape setting); since the Pathfinder Campaign Setting doesn't have these, another border region (South Axis/North Hell, anyone?).
  • Irori: Not sure why all the hate for him on the Least Favorite Deities thread -- from what little I have been able to read of him, he seems like a decent enough sort, enough so that maybe he should be a bit towards the Good (North Axis/South Heaven?).

Lawful Evil

  • Asmodeus: Already does an excellent job of being a deity I love to hate. Some possible tweaks: Rather than favoring slavery generically, he favors slavery imposed by contract. Not that he has any moral qualms about other forms of slavery, but he looks down on their slavemasters as having had their slaves handed to them on silver platters rather than having properly earned their slaves by masterfully executed treachery. Also have Asmodeus be successfully starting heresies in the temples of most other deities, in an attempt to corrupt them as well as the faiths they lead -- many other deities do this as well, but he takes first prize for this. And this is a perfect lead-in for . . .

Neutral Good

  • Sarenrae: Not only does she let her more corrupt followers run rampant over everyone else (and each other) even though she is in command of the most powerful fusion reactor within several light years, but while she claims to be the goddess of redemption, she doesn't even do a good job of it. No one seems to be very good at it, but at least Desna and Shelyn seem to have some actual success at this. Could this be one of the more successful machinations of Asmodeus?
  • Shelyn: A poster child for the fact that not everything wrong has to come from Asmodeus, even if he is one of the most proficient at causing wrong things to come forth in others. That artwork with her posing scantily clad with a glaive in a way that most reminds me of an NRA/militia sex picture calendar/poster: I'm going to make a story out of this: This is a picture that Shelyn posed for back before she had matured, and now it's in all her temples and she can't get rid of it, just like people who post nude pictures of themselves on Facebook in an interval of bad judgement, and now can't get rid of it or live it down . . . This isn't so much a tweak to her overall as a tweak to her backstory.
  • Not a deity, but spells that servants of various deities, especially the Good ones, have to use often on a daily basis: Conjuration (Healing) spells: Put them back in Necromancy where they belong!

Neutral

  • Pharasma. I hate over-deities on Earth and I hate them in fantasy settings, and I also hate enforcement of death when it is even against those who don't hurt anybody else in their evasion of death. In contrast to the first part of this, Asmodeus is an over-deity wannabe, but despite any proclamations to the contray, he's not there yet, and it is possible (even though extremely difficult) to oppose him, even though he's clearly beyond the ability of any mortal or group thereof (and several deities as well) to fight in personal combat. Suggested remedy: Replace Pharasma with (or make her be) a less powerful deity of death and sorting of souls, one who can't just decree something and make it so no matter what anyone else wishes (if she can be bothered to do so at all), but one who has to negotiate with other powers to make sure that (most of the) souls go to the right places. Also have her be less militant about mortals avoiding their mortality, as long as they don't do something that hurts others (like draining the life of and/or making Undead of other people). Keep some of the militant flavor by trouble getting the proper message to all of the Psychopomps. Some people just won't get the message.

Neutral Evil

  • Norgorber: Not a tweak to him (them?), and not even a tweak to the backstory, but I just can't pass up the concept of some people having trouble with his name (note: my real-life name is even harder . . .). In particular, have Goblins end up generally hating him (despite having nominally the same alignment) because they just can't get over . . . Nobooger!
  • Droskar: Keep same backstory and main history, but add to his recent history: Since he is the pointy-haired boss deity, he has actually started to accumulate a considerable non-Dwarf/non-Duergar following, and is rapidly making the transition from Dwarf/Duergar-specific deity to mainstream deity.
  • Zyphus: If he's going to stay Neutral Evil instead of Chaotic Evil, his followers have got to regularly tell their chosen assassin agents "Now remember: It's got to look like an accident." . . .

Chaotic Good

  • Cayden Cailean: Given the considerable importance of the alcoholic beverage part of his portfolio, move him to Chaotic Neutral. Alternatively, de-emphasize that part of his portfolio and emphasize the other parts of his portfolio. Possibly do a combination of these, and put him at a multiple of 22.5° (Ysgard in the PlaneScape setting); since the Pathfinder Campaign Setting didn't retain these, this is another border case (South Elysium/North Maelstrom, anyone)?
  • Desna: Play up the alien origin part of her backstory. As the Flumphs have shown, not everything alien has to be hostile to familiar mortal life.

Chaotic Neutral

  • Besmara, Calistria, and Gorum. How are the promotion of the major practices of any of them (respectively: piracy, spiteful trickery + spiteful revenge + untempered prostitution, and war) not supposed to be Evil overall? And canonically, Calistria already commissions Antipaladins, while Gorum seems an awful lot like a divinely ascended Graveknight. Move all of these to Chaotic Evil.
  • Outer Gods/Great Old Ones having a Chaotic Neutral alignment: In each case, either make them less actively malicious, or move them to Chaotic Evil; make those that are Chaotic Neutral definitely distinguishable from those that are Chaotic Evil (this also goes for D&D/Pathfinder things of those alignments more generally -- Deadpool is Chaotic Neutral, whereas the Joker is Chaotic Evil).
  • Azathoth and/or Yog-Sothoth: As a special case of the above, make this/them Pastafarian -- in that vein, one of them could even be a replacement non-Evil pirate deity (under an alternate name like Ramenvolare, and involving a colossal misunderstanding by a large fraction of their followers about their environmental ideology, that they do nothing to correct).
  • Not a deity, but a major source of confusion for the interpreters of Chaotic Neutral things including deities: Remove the obsolete text that says "A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy" -- this definitely does NOT describe the Proteans, and was copied verbatim from the D&D 3.5 PRD (and for what it's worth, 5th Edition got rid of it).

Chaotic Evil

  • Lamashtu: I wouldn't actually want to change her, but I'd like to see a non-Evil (and competing) counterpart (not necessarily as powerful) that generates mutant offspring that are not necessarily Evil, on a non-malicious (if not necessarily benevolent) basis.
  • Not a deity, but causing great confusion among Chaotic Evil and the neighboring alignments: Sort out the confusion in the description of these alignments (especially Chaotic Evil compared to Neutral Evil, but as noted above also Chaotic Evil compared to Chaotic Neutral). Even the current (apparently recently updated) version of the alignment descriptions has this problem. Straighten this mess out, and we can call it good . . . er, I mean EVIL.


Some good ideas up thread that'll start by poaching (eliminate Nethys and just subsume knowledge into Irori or Norgeberger being my favorite)

My personal contribution is going to be a bit general. I'd personally start tacking on some agreeable aspects to the evil gods and disagreeable aspects to the good ones in an effort to explain why they attract and tolerate those fence sitting neutral chumps.

On the evil side you could have Urgoratha be a goddess of plenty and bounty and thus attract clerics/worshipers concerned with having enough food on the table. Lamashtu, while certainly spawning monsters, could be a goddess of birth who actually cares about her children (unlike that aloof Pharasma).

On the good side you can adjust Shelyn to no longer respect the participation trophy of beauty and just respect inner OR outer beauty thus allowing her to tolerate snobs who turn their nose up at folk who don't have enough outer (or inner) beauty. Iomaedae, being the crusader that she is, demands nothing less than perfection from her soldiers and can be seen as a bit cruel as she places seemingly insurmountable demands on her worshipers all in the effort to iron out weakness of body and mind and create more effective warriors of good. Etc etc

There's other stuff, but that would just devolve into me nitpicking gods I have issues with.


First off thanks to Cole for seeing fit to quote me :) I'm actually fairly fond of my Pharasma/Zyphus solution and the Sarenrea/Iomadea solution.

I did forget to mention a couple of others

Desna: As others have said play up the Alien but, perhaps she has the inside scoop on the outer gods.

Shelyn: Make some of the more zealous good deities dislike her as they believe she should simply excecute Zon-kuthon so ensure the evil that corrupted him cannot use him to corrupt others. Irrespective of whether or not this is how that evil works.

Also @Captian yesterday, Asmodeus is gay?


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Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
Also @Captian yesterday, Asmodeus is gay?

Hell is awfully lady deficient.


Explain please xD

Silver Crusade

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The Hells' power structure is very misogynistic, but there are plenty of women in the Hells.


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Yes, but he doesn't really seem into them.

It's just one interpretation, not anything I'm really invested in debating on. :-)


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mysogynist != homosexual


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No. Not what I'm saying.

Dark Archive

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Norgorber - a party (said to be mostly halflings) that, together, passed the Test of the Starstone, treating it like just another dungeon.

'Father Skinsaw' was a CE Barbarian.

'The Reaper of Reputation' was a LE Bard.

'Blackfingers' was a NE Alchemist.

'The Gray Master' was a N Rogue.

With their four powers combined, they are Norgorber!

As a result of this fourfold nature, any given church of Norgorber might focus on one aspect to a degree that it seems quite different from another group. Skinsaw cults, in particular, being quite 'flashy' often give the impression that all Norgorber worshippers are murder-junkies with straight razors who dress like deranged clowns. The silver-tongued career politicians and courtiers and functionaries who pay lip service to the Reaper of Reputation, or the cold-blooded vivisectionists and experimentors on the cutting edge who create new procedures (and drugs and toxins) in service to Blackfingers would be unrecognizable as 'Norgorber-worshippers' to someone whose only experience is with Skinsaw cultists.


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Set wrote:

Norgorber - a party (said to be mostly halflings) that, together, passed the Test of the Starstone, treating it like just another dungeon.

'Father Skinsaw' was a CE Barbarian.

'The Reaper of Reputation' was a LE Bard.

'Blackfingers' was a NE Alchemist.

'The Gray Master' was a N Rogue.

With their four powers combined, they are Norgorber!

As a result of this fourfold nature, any given church of Norgorber might focus on one aspect to a degree that it seems quite different from another group. Skinsaw cults, in particular, being quite 'flashy' often give the impression that all Norgorber worshippers are murder-junkies with straight razors who dress like deranged clowns. The silver-tongued career politicians and courtiers and functionaries who pay lip service to the Reaper of Reputation, or the cold-blooded vivisectionists and experimentors on the cutting edge who create new procedures (and drugs and toxins) in service to Blackfingers would be unrecognizable as 'Norgorber-worshippers' to someone whose only experience is with Skinsaw cultists.

I totally stole this idea for my own treatment of Norgorber. Although to be fair so little is known of his/their backstory that I am not sure it actually modifying the god.

Shadow Lodge

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In regards to Erastil, keep him as is. I get some folks will not like him either favoring males slightly or being traditional family orientated, but well, no matter how you change him, someone is not going to like something.

No, instead, I'd make him a larger part of the setting, and really play up a sort of cordial rivalry between Erastil, Abadar, and Asmodeus, all of which have very strong opinion on how community, society, and the world should work. Even touch the politics between rural and urban cultures of the real world, (wanting a road through a farmers land, parks vs parking lots).

What's essential here is to show how each of their ideas have both pros and cons, and to make them all reasonably favorable. That is going to be 100% about presentation on Paizo's part, and to be honest, I'm not sure they could do it. Secondarily, absolutely highlight the loving and wise father or grandfather archetype, who might not believe or agree with this generation, but well, turns out he actually has a lot more wisdom and experience than you think and actually knows a thing or two.

Torag. One thing I think that sort of throws a bit of a monkey wrench into things is I don't know if Paizo every really decided originally if Torag was "A Dwarf god" or a universal god of creation, protection, honor, and hard work, who was originally introduced by the dwarves, (and continues to favor and resemble them), but is now a fairly widely worshipped deity across all races, nations, etc. . .

I feel like the later was the intent, but we are mostly only shown the former in practice. Show a lot more non-Dwarves as worshipers and faithful, but also show his tenets and faith in practice less related to Dwarves (without removing them). Secondarily, show some of the good his tenet and beliefs do as opposed to other Good deities, both which have conflicting ideas and those with similar styles/themes/mentalities.

Ragathiel. The main problem I have with him is he is probably hands down the most awesome character in the setting, but writers have pushed in a lot of mechanics that outright contradict the flavor, RP, and story elements. I'm convinced his Obedience was a an error meant for another Empyreal Lord no one caught, and I think that a simple errata there would fix this.

It would also be nice to have some decent male role-model types in Pathfinder and Golarion.


MMCJawa wrote:
Set wrote:

Norgorber - a party (said to be mostly halflings) that, together, passed the Test of the Starstone, treating it like just another dungeon.

'Father Skinsaw' was a CE Barbarian.

'The Reaper of Reputation' was a LE Bard.

'Blackfingers' was a NE Alchemist.

'The Gray Master' was a N Rogue.

With their four powers combined, they are Norgorber!

As a result of this fourfold nature, any given church of Norgorber might focus on one aspect to a degree that it seems quite different from another group. Skinsaw cults, in particular, being quite 'flashy' often give the impression that all Norgorber worshippers are murder-junkies with straight razors who dress like deranged clowns. The silver-tongued career politicians and courtiers and functionaries who pay lip service to the Reaper of Reputation, or the cold-blooded vivisectionists and experimentors on the cutting edge who create new procedures (and drugs and toxins) in service to Blackfingers would be unrecognizable as 'Norgorber-worshippers' to someone whose only experience is with Skinsaw cultists.

I totally stole this idea for my own treatment of Norgorber. Although to be fair so little is known of his/their backstory that I am not sure it actually modifying the god.

I want to steal this too . . . but that party composition is SO non-optimal that we've got to make a story out of that in particular.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:
stuff about Pharasma

For an "All powerful" deity, the very existence of undead, Mahathallah's soul anchors, and the numerous forms of reincarnation (Druids, Samsarans, the Esoteric Tradition, etc.) seem to suggest it's really not that difficult to oppose Pharasma. Her followers say she's omnipotent, but for her own mysterious reasons doesn't act. Is that the truth though? Has Pharasma herself ever demonstrated what she's capable of?


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I've always taken the view that she plays a long game. There are ways to postpone judgement but you'll come before her eventually.

Silver Crusade

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Yeah, she's existed since the previous iteration of the universe. Some upstart undead gaining a few years to a few millennia extension is just a minor annoyance to her. Still an annoyance though.


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Set wrote:

Norgorber - a party (said to be mostly halflings) that, together, passed the Test of the Starstone, treating it like just another dungeon.

'Father Skinsaw' was a CE Barbarian.

'The Reaper of Reputation' was a LE Bard.

'Blackfingers' was a NE Alchemist.

'The Gray Master' was a N Rogue.

With their four powers combined, they are Norgorber!

As a result of this fourfold nature, any given church of Norgorber might focus on one aspect to a degree that it seems quite different from another group. Skinsaw cults, in particular, being quite 'flashy' often give the impression that all Norgorber worshippers are murder-junkies with straight razors who dress like deranged clowns. The silver-tongued career politicians and courtiers and functionaries who pay lip service to the Reaper of Reputation, or the cold-blooded vivisectionists and experimentors on the cutting edge who create new procedures (and drugs and toxins) in service to Blackfingers would be unrecognizable as 'Norgorber-worshippers' to someone whose only experience is with Skinsaw cultists.

You do realize this means that this turns Norgorber into the "multiple short people in a trench coat pretending to be one tall guy" joke, right?

Silver Crusade

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Michael7123 wrote:
Set wrote:

Norgorber - a party (said to be mostly halflings) that, together, passed the Test of the Starstone, treating it like just another dungeon.

'Father Skinsaw' was a CE Barbarian.

'The Reaper of Reputation' was a LE Bard.

'Blackfingers' was a NE Alchemist.

'The Gray Master' was a N Rogue.

With their four powers combined, they are Norgorber!

As a result of this fourfold nature, any given church of Norgorber might focus on one aspect to a degree that it seems quite different from another group. Skinsaw cults, in particular, being quite 'flashy' often give the impression that all Norgorber worshippers are murder-junkies with straight razors who dress like deranged clowns. The silver-tongued career politicians and courtiers and functionaries who pay lip service to the Reaper of Reputation, or the cold-blooded vivisectionists and experimentors on the cutting edge who create new procedures (and drugs and toxins) in service to Blackfingers would be unrecognizable as 'Norgorber-worshippers' to someone whose only experience is with Skinsaw cultists.

You do realize this means that this turns Norgorber into the "multiple short people in a trench coat pretending to be one tall guy" joke, right?

That's the general consensus already.


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Michael7123 wrote:
Set wrote:

Norgorber - a party (said to be mostly halflings) that, together, passed the Test of the Starstone, treating it like just another dungeon.

'Father Skinsaw' was a CE Barbarian.

'The Reaper of Reputation' was a LE Bard.

'Blackfingers' was a NE Alchemist.

'The Gray Master' was a N Rogue.

With their four powers combined, they are Norgorber!

As a result of this fourfold nature, any given church of Norgorber might focus on one aspect to a degree that it seems quite different from another group. Skinsaw cults, in particular, being quite 'flashy' often give the impression that all Norgorber worshippers are murder-junkies with straight razors who dress like deranged clowns. The silver-tongued career politicians and courtiers and functionaries who pay lip service to the Reaper of Reputation, or the cold-blooded vivisectionists and experimentors on the cutting edge who create new procedures (and drugs and toxins) in service to Blackfingers would be unrecognizable as 'Norgorber-worshippers' to someone whose only experience is with Skinsaw cultists.

You do realize this means that this turns Norgorber into the "multiple short people in a trench coat pretending to be one tall guy" joke, right?

You say this as if it was a bad thing...


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MMCJawa wrote:
Michael7123 wrote:
Set wrote:

Norgorber - a party (said to be mostly halflings) that, together, passed the Test of the Starstone, treating it like just another dungeon.

'Father Skinsaw' was a CE Barbarian.

'The Reaper of Reputation' was a LE Bard.

'Blackfingers' was a NE Alchemist.

'The Gray Master' was a N Rogue.

With their four powers combined, they are Norgorber!

As a result of this fourfold nature, any given church of Norgorber might focus on one aspect to a degree that it seems quite different from another group. Skinsaw cults, in particular, being quite 'flashy' often give the impression that all Norgorber worshippers are murder-junkies with straight razors who dress like deranged clowns. The silver-tongued career politicians and courtiers and functionaries who pay lip service to the Reaper of Reputation, or the cold-blooded vivisectionists and experimentors on the cutting edge who create new procedures (and drugs and toxins) in service to Blackfingers would be unrecognizable as 'Norgorber-worshippers' to someone whose only experience is with Skinsaw cultists.

You do realize this means that this turns Norgorber into the "multiple short people in a trench coat pretending to be one tall guy" joke, right?
You say this as if it was a bad thing...

Not at all. It would be hilarious, and explain why Norgorber is so adamant that nobody ever tries to depict what he looks like in art.


To add my $0.02...

Abadar: its a minor thing, but he's the god of nobility/kings, cities, wealth and trade. How about an Abadar that's less prescriptive in his socio-economic tenets and more that he's just the god of economy and social structures generally? You can have the mainline faith be a balancing act between the nobility and the rising merchant class (depending on where you are in the setting). Also, for anyone who has trouble seeing how Abadar can be LG, consider that civilization in Golarion consists mostly of interconnected pockets surrounded by monster-filled wilderness. The safety and opportunity that cities provide is as important to people as an anthill is to ants. I also see him as having a significant conflict with Gorum (law around you vs. chaos around you).

Asmodeus: not a change, but if you need a great example of an Asmodean bureaucrat (or LE Abadaran), you should check out the character Sir Humphrey Appleby from the BBC show "Yes, Minister" and its sequel "Yes, Prime Minister." Also, gay Asmodeus? Yes, Hell-daddy. ;)

Calistria/Titania: I like Calistria as a minor elven deity similar to Ishtar, but I don't think she's major pantheon material. Instead, drop the Knowledge domain, replace it with the Plant domain, and voila! You have Titania, Queen of the Fey, Wild Places, Fertility, and Passion. If Erastil is the god of orderly farms, Titania is the goddess of un-tamed forests. I also see her as having significant conflict with Irori (chaos within you vs. order within you).

Cayden Cailean: to those who aren't fond of/don't get Cayden, consider Dionysus/Bacchus from ancient Greece/Rome. He's the god of wine, adventure, bravery, and freedom. He's the divine comedian among the deities. Alcohol isn't just an intoxicant, in a medieval fantasy world it opens your mind and soul to the gods. They're called "spirits", aren't they?

Erastil: its been mentioned before that the god of family has none of his own. To fix that, and connect the gods together more, how about Erastil was with Lamashtu back in the day? They're two diving parents and maybe things were happy for a time, but then Something Went Terribly Wrong. Lamashtu either went mad or her madness finally showed and she's no longer with Erastil. Maybe there were children, maybe those children died, maybe the children were part of Lamashtu's madness, or maybe both deities have different stories about what happened. Either way, now Erastil acts as the father figure for all, hoping that no one else would have to share his grief.

Gorum: to make him a bit more likable and justify CG Gorumites, remember that Gorum is the god of all combat, including defending yourself. He will give strength to the bully and the bullied, and together they may grow to become brothers/sisters in arms (see all shounen anime rivalries ever). Combat and war can become glorious and serve the purpose of Good as well. Consider also that conflict is a big part of how we define ourselves. It is the chisel we use to shape ourselves from the marble. I also see him as having a significant conflict with Abadar (law around you vs. chaos around you).

Iomedae: its not really a big change, but I like to emphasize her aspects as the goddess of humility and knightly oaths. I ignore her appearance in Wrath of the Righteous entirely (not gonna harp on that, enough has been said on the subject).

Lamashtu: as the Mother of Monsters/Demons, I like the idea of her having access to the Healing domain instead of Trickery. Lamashtu's aspects that are represented in Trickery are also represented in Madness, so swapping it for Healing makes sense to me.

Nethys: not a change so much as another way of understanding him, but if you're having trouble understanding Nethys's whole schtick then you should check out Hermetic philosophy. A lot of that is based on the idea that one can achieve transcendence through knowledge and magic. There's also parallels between his Destruction/Protection domains and the Hermetic concepts of solve et coagula.

Rovagug: to re-contextualize Rovagug, think of him as a divine personification of War Among the Gods. He wasn't really a thing until the gods started fighting over the quintessence of reality. Once the fighting kicked off, Rovagug formed and started destroying everything, including the quintessence itself. This is why the deities all teamed up against him and have adopted a non-intervention policy regarding the Material Plane and mortal souls (which are just awakened quintessence).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
OmegaZ wrote:
Cayden Cailean: to those who aren't fond of/don't get Cayden, consider Dionysus/Bacchus from ancient Greece/Rome.

Oh, I do consider Dionysus. It's part of why Cayden's good alignment sticks in my craw.

Dionysus may bring the party, but he also tears people apart or drives them completely insane...


A few thoughts:

Ragathiel: he really needs the Fire domain. His mother was a demigoddess of the Plane if Fire, after all, and he seems to have been raised there. Not sure what I’d drop, but if he ever ascends to full godhood, it’s what I’d add. Maybe Ymeri gives his mom some grief so he leads a holy crusade to liberate the plane from her clutches, and in so doing ascends. And breaks up the whole “All the Elemental Lords are NE” thing that never made any sense to me anyway.

Erastil: there’s always been a bit of a tension to him; agriculture and hunting are very different pursuits that were, in the beginnings of civilization not always allied. Well, farmers might always supplement their diet with wild game, but they quite likely weren’t friends with the hunger-gatherers that occasionally wandered through their lands, quite likely with no concept of or respect for property rights. So I’d have Erastil emphasize agriculture, community, and trade, though in a less money-grubbing way than Abadar, while promoting Cernunnos to embody hunting and the like.

Pharasma needs a prominent militant sect of LN Hellknights and/or Gray Paladins who are fanatically anti-undead. She talks a big game about being anti-undead, but never seems to get off her duff and do something about the problem.

Maybe a dueling god besides Cayden, for people who think that sword fighting is best done with a sober mind. Such a god would have much in common with Irori, but revere the blade, instead of unarmed combat.

I’d like to see the Reaper of Reputation aspect of Norgorber separates out, perhaps along with Blackfingers. Secret Knowledge and Alchemy can serve any purpose, and I feel like they ough to be neutral, so that good alchemists could worship the alchemy god, etc. I guess alchemy could just be an aspect of Nethys, since it’s a type of magic. I’d definitely have a N god of Knowledge and Darkness though, because we could also use a non-evil god of the night or something, which would go well with secrets (“The night has a thousand eyes, and a thousand eyes can’t help but see”, after all).

I wouldn’t mind seeing Rovagug eliminated entirely and Dahak promoted in his place. A dragon should be the ultimate God of Destruction. That just feels right.

Milani should have some sort of common implement as her sacred weapon. How are her faithful going to pass unnoticed carrying morningstars? She oughta have a billhook or club or something.

We need a god with the two-bladed sword as his sacred weapon. Maybe that sober dueling god I mentioned earlier.

More racial weapons for racial gods. No dwarven gods have the Dorn-Dergar or Dwarven Longhammer as their sacred weapon? No elven god has the Elven Curve Blade? What’s up with that?

Maybe a LN god of warfare. Not all warriors are wild barbarians, there should be someone for the disciplined phalanxes and legions to worship too. Starfinder’s Damaritosh comes close, but he goes full evil, and I’d prefer to keep the war gods neutral, since war can be turned to any purpose, Holy or unholy, conquest or liberation. It’s a tool, no more evil in and of itself than a sword.


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Pharasma has at least one sect of undead hunters based in Osirion and probably another one in Ustalav.

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Ouachitonian wrote:

A few thoughts:

Ragathiel: he really needs the Fire domain. [SNIP] And breaks up the whole “All the Elemental Lords are NE” thing that never made any sense to me anyway.

I like the idea of non-evil elemental deities. Gozreh already covers some of that, but earth and air seem like afterthoughts for Abadar and Shelyn, and not terribly relevant to their interests.

Quote:
Pharasma needs a prominent militant sect of LN Hellknights and/or Gray Paladins who are fanatically anti-undead. She talks a big game about being anti-undead, but never seems to get off her duff and do something about the problem.

Yeah, this might also be a good role for some Empyreal, to do the stuff that Pharasma talks big about, but doesn't actually do. (Such as crusading against the undead.)

Quote:
I wouldn’t mind seeing Rovagug eliminated entirely and Dahak promoted in his place. A dragon should be the ultimate God of Destruction. That just feels right.

I like this idea a lot. I'm not a fan of bugs, but associating big bugs with evil seems lazy to me. (Ditto snake-gods being evil, or whatever. It's like 'icky' or 'ugly' or even 'old' always seems to be evil, in fantasy games.)

Dahak has always come across as kind of pointless, in the current setting, and replacing Rovagug with him would be one way to seriously jazz him up.

Quote:
Maybe a LN god of warfare. Not all warriors are wild barbarians, there should be someone for the disciplined phalanxes and legions to worship too.

A god for the soldiers (who aren't necessarily as mercenary as Abadar would suggest, or as 'eastern philosophy' as Irori, or as into sadomasochism as Zon-Kuthon, but are still into honor and discipline and duty and all that) could be neat. Golarion has lots of demon lords, archdevils, empyreal, etc. but no big faction / outsider race for neutral (or lawful or chaotic) gods, as much.

Law and chaos tend to be afterthoughts, compared to good and evil, so yeah, this would be a neat area to explore.

It's also possible that, in addition to a not-quite-so-dwarfy version of Torag, a not-quite-so-faux-Asian version of Irori could fill that role. A more 'western Golarion' version of Irori could fit the niche of god of duty, honor, discipline, training, etc. and be less unarmored 'god of monks' and more of an armored weapon-wielding god of soldiers. Domains of Law and Strength would remain, but Protection and War would probably replace Rune, Healing and / or Knowledge (although if he remained a god of standards, signals and banners, Rune could remain, or a god of strategy and tactics and military history, Knowledge could remain, or even a god of battlefield medicine, to represent Healing?).


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Iomedae, I think, is supposed to be the honor/discipline/duty war god...


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

What Pharasma needs most, is a partner. A husband/wife deity of something light and non-adventurous, like springtime, flowers, the first growth, small woodland creatures, or the like. If she is to be Hades, she needs that contrast, like Persephone.

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arkham wrote:
What Pharasma needs most, is a partner. A husband/wife deity of something light and non-adventurous, like springtime, flowers, the first growth, small woodland creatures, or the like. If she is to be Hades, she needs that contrast, like Persephone.

Pharasma has always leaned more torwards law than chaos and, to a lesser extent, towards good over evil. (Forbidding some evil spells, and the use of negative energy, despite being, in name only, 'neutral').

Having the childless god of birth, and Erastil, the bachelor god of families, having been once a married couple, but having long since drifted apart, perhaps after the death of a favored child battling Rovagug, or during Earthfall, or whatever, could deal with that.

Figures of uncertain parentage, like Abadar or Gozeh could be other possible children of the two, and Pharasma could be a sort of All-Mother.


Set wrote:
Pharasma has always leaned more torwards law than chaos and, to a lesser extent, towards good over evil. (Forbidding some evil spells, and the use of negative energy, despite being, in name only, 'neutral').

Wait, Pharasma doesn't let you channel negative energy? I'm sure she doesn't like it when CNE is used to heal the undead, but I though she was fine with it being used to hurt the living?

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OmegaZ wrote:
Set wrote:
Pharasma has always leaned more torwards law than chaos and, to a lesser extent, towards good over evil. (Forbidding some evil spells, and the use of negative energy, despite being, in name only, 'neutral').
Wait, Pharasma doesn't let you channel negative energy? I'm sure she doesn't like it when CNE is used to heal the undead, but I though she was fine with it being used to hurt the living?

That's what I've heard. as a recent change, but I'm out of the loop and don't know if that's real or just some internet rumor that I'm irresponsibly spreading... :)

Either way, she's always felt 'neutral in name only' to me, and even this proposed tweak (her and Erastil having a history) doesn't change her alignment so much as make her, at one time, at least (briefly) copacetic with being married to a LG person.


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I've recently come up with a theory that the whole Boneyard System isn't actually the natural order of things. Pharasma, being one of the first deities, realized she could set it up to make her one of the most powerful entities in all creation. Because she did so before most other things existed, she was able to lie to them and say that this is always how souls and they way they travel have worked.

This has, of course, resulted in consequences. Charon, being equally as old, receives regular bribes of souls "accidentally" lost in the River Styx as his payment to help Pharasma keep up the charade. Urgathoa was able to exploit a loophole in the rules Pharasma had set up to force souls to flow in a certain way, which was how she was able escape the Boneyard. And Aroden had just discovered this great cosmic lie and would not agree to keep silent about it, and so had to be silenced in a more permanent fashion...


^That is a disturbingly plausible hypothesis . . . .


Oh, the Boneyard Sytsem is definitely not natural, after all some gods existed before the mortals, or Material Plane for that matter, ever came to be.

I think that before the creation of the Material Plane (or even the First World) the souls were just flowing from Positive Energy Plane to the Outer Sphere directly. But they were... bland, to say at least. Thus the first gods created the Material Plane for the souls to ripen, and get some flavor (a.k.a. alignment) before they harvest them. Pharasma was definitely among them, Asmodeus most likely as well, possibly Desna, Gozreh, Shelyn, Dou-Bral, Torag and Erastil. My theory is that aligned souls have more utility to them, allowing for a construction of more elaborate planes. The downside is that the aligned souls of opposite alignment clash with each other, and they need to be kept separate for the stability of any creation constructed from them. Thus the Boneyard Sytem was created.

Rovagug, who I consider an ascended qlippoth, obviously opposes it, as the very existence of Material Plane. After all, this strengthens other gods, and qlippoth would want nothing more than the expulsion of mortal souls from Abyss and sealing the connection to Maelstrom that proteans had created. He's not wrong, he's just the Defender of Qlippoth!


My thoughts in general:

I would play up Iomedae not being ready for the responsibility being Aroden's Inheritor entails. Have her be a soldier, not a general. Either she has a few entities that she trusts with the heavier decisions (and possibly the introduction of new recruits), or she's likely to go downhill.

I think we need some kind of nonevil deity of insects, but Desna is a bit too busy with everything else. I could see moving stars off to Sarenrae (since she already has at least one fireball) to make room. Just be sure to include more than just lepidoptera, though.

Pharasma is sketchy. If you don't want that coming out, there needs to be another deity handling cases where she might have a conflict of interest, and there should be space in the N outer plane for other N deities.

Headcanon is Besmara hasn't fully become Evil because Cayden is tagging along for some of the adventurers and steering her away from the worse options. Helps they guy actually have some heroics under his divine belt, too.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The Sideromancer wrote:
I think we need some kind of nonevil deity of insects, but Desna is a bit too busy with everything else. I could see moving stars off to Sarenrae (since she already has at least one fireball) to make room. Just be sure to include more than just lepidoptera, though.

Personally, I'd import Hylax from Starfinder if I saw a need for such a deity...


The Sideromancer wrote:
I think we need some kind of nonevil deity of insects, but Desna is a bit too busy with everything else. I could see moving stars off to Sarenrae (since she already has at least one fireball) to make room. Just be sure to include more than just lepidoptera, though.

Don't they come into the Gozreh's area of concern, as the god(dess) of nature? The problem with giving insects to a Good deity is that there isn't many good things that can be done with bugs. Butterflies or fireflies can at least be beautiful (Shelyn), an bees can be seen as hard-working (Erastil maybe), but for most bugs, the good deities would be hard -pressed to justify their interest in them.


A lot of arthropods care a lot for their young, even when there's enough of them for several other animals to just leave them. Some ants have full-on farms in their constructed living complexes. Silk is widely used, though you might want to switch to milking spiders over boiling cocoons on that one.

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Um, outside of my first three, maybe four, mine aren't tweaks as much as wholesale changes.

.

Norgorber -- I kinda see him as being originally from the streets of Absalom rather than feudal Cheliax when it was part of Taldor. (And am avoiding Spoilers for HR!)

Gorum -- I never liked him until I started making his name sound like 'Crom' when Conan says it: "G'roooam'! .... "My god is G'rom; he knows the secret of steel."

Zon Kuthon -- I don't like the name at all so I just say 'The Midnight Lord.' But mostly, I've adopted Todd Stewart's homebrew of how Dou Bral fell from Grace via the susurrating insinuations of Tegresin the Laughing Fiend. And I completely, unequivocally merge The Midnight Lord with the Cenobites. Something Paizo can't do for copyright law but I sure can.

Cayden Cailean -- More 'Rogue-with-touch-of-fighter' than 'Fighter-with-touch-of-Rogue.' Still all the 'drunk luck' and 'crazy adventurer' but for some reason I like him as a much more recent mortal adventurer -- and originally from Andoran -- than a god who's been ascended for millennia.

Erastil -- Yeah, the whole 'I'm a god of family but I have no wife or kids, and I'm a god of vegetables & rural society' just never clicked with me. I deleted him completely and just use The Stag Lord to be the god of Ranger and Druid and Hunter stuff.

Irori -- Um, I completely deleted him, too. Monks are all about the inner search for truth and self enlightenment, not 'I'll find enlightenment in a god.' Monks look deep within themselves in a lifelong journey for self greatness. They even fricken get it at 20th Level! NO Monk would think, 'Oh, that god has found a greater inner Truth and self enlightenment; I'll worship him and find my own inner Truth and enlightenment.' By definition.

Abadar -- I deleted him completely and use Aroden to take his place. Aroden might be dead, or he might just be lost or hiding or even captured by Zagig (or Fraz Urb'Lu) and stuck in Castle Greyhawk or something. In any event, just because he's gone and not coming back doesn't mean people won't still worship him and place him as their god of society, civilization and humanity. And it gets really cool when you start to question just from where spells and other Class features are coming -- moreso with Oracles. And of course, there are plenty of (NPC) Clerics (and Oracles) of Aroden who are insane, and some who are lucid only sometimes. *

Calistria -- I make her far less 'Elf' because I still use Corellon Larethian. A whole bunch of Elves in Kyonin may revere Calistria and get their giggles from the Sacred Sting but Corellon Larethian IS the god of the Elves. No arguing.

Torag -- Yeah, Moradin is the god of the Dwarves. Even moreso than Corellon Larethian is god of the Elves. There is no Torag.

Sarenrae -- Has nothing to do with Katapesh, Osirion, Qadira, or Thuvia. Sarenrae is the Sun God of redemption and retribution for Absalom and Taldor and Andoran and such. Ra and Osiris and such are gods down south.

Desna and Pharasma -- These are Varisian gods (which includes Ustalov). Not so big outside of Varisian life. This dramatically affects their place in my game because, outside of Varisia, Ustalov, and I guess parts of Molthune, the average person has never even heard of Pharasma or Desna. Groetus and Ghlaunder are the same, only Varisian.

Gozreh -- Yeah, I deleted him completely. There is no Gozreh. I'll use an FR deity in his place if I need to.

.

*

Spoiler:
I've been saying for years that the not-published cause of Aroden's canonical death was Ritual Suicide. It's makes absolute perfect, even 'Duh, obvious' sense -- Aroden decides to commit ritual suicide the day he's suppose to come back in order to usher in a new era where the PCs get to set there own destiny and drive the campaign setting ever forward. ....As such, I've struggled with merging what I'm pretty confident is the actual death of Aroden in the canon, and My use of him as just mysteriously gone or silent (not necessarily dead).
....Yeah, still thinking about it. But it doesn't matter; PC Clerics (and Oracles) of Aroden, whether dead or 'missing'/ 'silent' can still get there spells and such.


Adjoint wrote:
The Sideromancer wrote:
I think we need some kind of nonevil deity of insects, but Desna is a bit too busy with everything else. I could see moving stars off to Sarenrae (since she already has at least one fireball) to make room. Just be sure to include more than just lepidoptera, though.
Don't they come into the Gozreh's area of concern, as the god(dess) of nature? The problem with giving insects to a Good deity is that there isn't many good things that can be done with bugs. Butterflies or fireflies can at least be beautiful (Shelyn), an bees can be seen as hard-working (Erastil maybe), but for most bugs, the good deities would be hard -pressed to justify their interest in them.

We would be(*) in a lot of trouble if we didn't have any bees. And many arthropods are needed for fast recycling of dead material (yes, microorganisms are doing most of the true chemical work, but in many cases you need arthropods to break it up for them to be able to use it quickly). Even aside from the scavenging, large parts of both land and sea food chains would collapse without arthropods (including insects on land and in fresh water).

(*)The way things are going with the bee die-offs, make that WILL BE.

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I probably shouldn't be surprised I'm only one posting about how they don't see any needs for changes on deities, mostly because presumably other people who think the same just ignore the thread

But yeah, I'm honestly confused about idea of removing Zyphus' status as god of salt :P Because seriously, thing that makes Zyphus great is that he is actually rather pathetic. The thing that makes him interesting is that while he is essentially just being really entitled and having cosmic scale tantrum, he does have a point that it IS unfair that some people's "fate" is apparently just dying randomly to no fanfare for no reason especially when there are gods around who could presumably do something about it.(granted, gods shouldn't interfere with mortal life too much, but you understand where he is coming from)

He is essentially entitled brat who can't accept that life is sometimes just unfair and feels need to force others to think same way he does.

In general though, I don't really get dislike for Pharasma or Irori. Pharasma works best as distant judge who might be leaning towards good(shes definitely not purely neutral considering how she offers souls who are going to enter Abaddon last chance redemption) but is still wrathful when her name or domain is used wrong. Irori on otherhand is pretty much Golarion equivalent of Buddha, philosopher who is worshiped.


Hmmm. Generally speaking I like most of the deities as is, but I can come up with some tweaks here and there.

Pharasma - I don't think she's lacking in power, I think she's just completely absorbed in her work. Make her more proactive. She genuinely hates undead, but she doesn't go out of her way to stop them from being created or to destroy them even though she's the one who said their creation and existence hastens the end of all things. So, have her actually go after Urgothua, or have Urgothua try to attack Pharasma. Legit I've always thought of her as being weaker than Asmodeus and Sarenrae, just smarter and phenomenally more patient. It's not that Asmodeus isn't strong enough to take her on, it's that he knows how many ways she'll have planned accordingly.

Asmodeus - Legit I like him as he is, but maybe have him do a heel face turn. His lore established that he and his brother were the first two God's, and when the latter decided to give free will to mortals and create "Chaos" he warred against and eventually killed his brother in the first act of betrayal. After that he simply left the universe as is as a final act of sympathy or possibly regret for that act, but promised to someday re-write the entire universe to be super lawful. Instead, maybe Asmodeus has been tormented and wracked by the regret over killing his brother, and now he's finally snapped. Even he can't really keep to his lawful ideology if he goes insane, but he is quite literally the strongest deity. Also, he ain't gay. I dunno where you guys got that. Also Hell isn't "misogynistic" it's militaristic and authoritarian, and there are plenty of powerhouse female demon's and devil's.

Gozreh - Maybe embrace the dual force of nature aspect more literally. Forces of nature are constantly working AGAINST each other, not with each other, and their combined effects are what make nature function. Gozreh is one entity with two mutual aspects; the water and air personas. Rather than have them both simply be "aspects" of the singular entity, make them two separate entities that share the same existence, constantly fighting each other for control and influence. One could even give them separate alignments, one neutral one good, both chaotic. Or one chaotic and one lawful, both neutral/good.

Gorum - Only one I'd actually change. Have him be more hostile to the other gods, indiscriminately. Gorum is the god of war. He doesn't care WHY you are waging war, just that you're waging it. He doesn't like cowards, and he makes a distinction between murderers and warriors, but he's absolutely OK with just war in general. Ever play Asura's Wrath? Right now I picture him a lot more like Argus, running around constantly talking about how much he absolutely loves fighting and screaming about how he doesn't fight for good, or evil, but instead he just fights... But rarely ever actually getting into fights. Instead of this, make him actively seek out fights with other deities and instigate wars. I mean, Cernunnos in comparison makes regular descents into Hell or the Abyss just to kill some fiends because he hates them and they tend to corrupt nature, and his raids generally cause a lot of damage. And he's just an Empyreal Lord, WITH STATS mind you. Gorum loves war and battle, yet he does next to nothing to actually engage in or promote war, nor does he really battle much.

Lamashtu - Only thing I'd change is have her make more actual attacks on other deities. She became a full deity by devouring the previous god of beasts (desna's friend) and it's openly stated that she considers effectively all other deities to be her rivals and enemies... Yet she doesn't really do much to get at them. And she's pretty easily the most likely candidate to make attempts at killing the other gods and steal their divinity. And she is now the most powerful Demon Lord, as well as the only full deity among their ranks. She could do something with that.

Iomedae - Honestly, I'd have her switch alignment with Sarenrae on morality and change her to Neutral Good, while making Sarenrae Chaotic Good. Iomedae was the herald of Aroden back in the day, and more or less took on his ideals. Aroden was a god that championed HUMANS in particular, but was also really active on the mortal world and had no issue screwing with tyrannical laws and regimes. Iomedae is much the same, and most of her paladin code is about freedom and protecting the weak and Iomedae just seems to in general keep a calm, decisive head about circumstances. Also I'd make her more active in the mortal world, like Aroden was.

Sarenrae - Like I said above, Sarenrae doesn't strike me as a "Neutral" deity, but more of a "Chaotic" deity. Or at the very least skirting the line between chaotic and neutral. I'd make her the chaotic good deity, and focus more prominently on the "fiery and slightly crazy" aspect she's got. She's one of the older deities, she was strong enough to battle Rovagug, and her personality is all over the place. She's firmly cemented in the "good guy" department, but she's far more chaotic than neutral.

And I'm gonna point out that there's a LOT of info on most of the deities, at least the major ones. It's just not all in one place, not by a long shot.

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