I'm no math whiz. In fact, I hate math, period. So I want to ask for some input from those of you who are "mathically"-oriented.
In a campaign where the general rule (few exceptions exist/will happen, but cannot be relied upon) is that every HD value is maximized (for both PCs and enemies), what general principles can be derived regarding combat doctrine?
1) Is Power Attack worth the feat slot and the reduction in accuracy in such a situation? How much difference would it make for a 3/4 BAB character, as opposed to a full BAB character -- if any?
2) Here's a link to the character in question. You'll notice this is not an optimized build. Given the ability scores (16/13/14/09/15/15 -- die rolls, not point-buy), the fact that this character is the party healer, and the fact that healing magic has not been modified in any way: am I right in not trying to take this character toward save-or-suck effects?
3) Am I correct in concluding that repeatable damage output (i.e., weapon attacks) will be even more important for party success than is normally the case?
4) Our GM has approved the Sacred Summons feat being allowed with the celestial template -- a huge boon. I plan on taking the feat at level 5, when it first becomes relevant. Is there a short list of the most combat-effective creatures for each level of summon monster?
5) I am tentatively committed to the "reach cleric" build. With that in mind, let's speculate about the best possible longspear I could build for this character. I would say that +1 fortuitous grayflame is the minimum standard; is that correct/reasonable? And: with those bonuses comprising a +3 weapon, what other weapon abilities should I tack on to the back end of the weapon, assuming that greater magic weapon will be used to make up for the enhancement bonuses?
Thanks for reading, folks!! :)
|
I play with max HP. I haven't done the math, but...
1) Power Attack is considered "worth it" because it increases DPR (against most opponents with CR-appropriate AC). More DPR is good even when everyone has more HP.
2) Can't access the build. Save or suck is still plenty useful in my experience since it prevents damage.
3) Combats take longer when you have more HP so assuming you have the same number of combats you'll run out of limited-use stuff more often. However if you end up having fewer combats because the combats take longer to resolve, then it may balance out and make limited use abilities equally or even more powerful. It is not uncommon for my group to have one big/dramatic encounter in a day.
4) Holy?
Can't open your link, either. Weird.
As for my character build, you can click through to my Kairon Daaltin alias, I guess. Not as speedy, but it'll do.
Maybe a leftover of all the weirdness yesterday, what with the site being down, and such.
1. Probably worth more then. Assuming the party isn't building save or suck, DPS becomes even more valuable than normal just to get the fight over with already
2. Personal preference. Save or suck can be fun. Would need to run some math and playtest to find if its optimal. As per usual go with what you find fun and try to make it work
3. Yes. DPS is valuable to a party for its ability to stop the encounter's drain on resources. Higher Hp means you need to hit harder
4. Check Proffesor Q's Wizard guide for a complete breakdown of summon monster picks
Weirdos Website http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10218751&postcount= 8
5. Might be better to invest in other combat boosters like +1 training cestus/gauntlets/thronbracers, str belts, etc as the price scales so much for further weapon upgrades. Also leaves your weapon open for flat enchantment bonuses later on
|
|
Huh, mine's not a paizo site and it works for me.
Can you get at it by accessing the Summoner's Handbook from the guide directory here? Once you open the giantitp thread, it's post 8.
Your build looks fine to me - as you say not quite optimal but a decent start to a reach cleric.
Max HP makes weapon damage less meaningful and SoD more meaningful.
HP damage now takes "3" rounds instead of "2" to kill something. SoD is still just 1.
but still, power attack can very easily give more Damage Per Round for people using a weapon in two hands. works for full BAB and 3/4.
healing magic is generally viewed as bad in combat. Max HP doesn't change this, nor change how good/bad healing is. Healing restores HP lost in combat. Having a larger pool doesn't change the relation of damage to healing.
look for things with lots of attacks, good CHA, and lots of attacks.
With a 15 Wis, it seemed to me that the 10% loss of efficacy in beating enemies' saving throws pushed a save-or-suck/die focus out of the frame for *maximizing what this character can do*.
By level 8, greater magic weapon will have an 8-hour duration and add at least 1 more point to attack bonus and damage. Even if I only have a +1 fortuitous spear by then, I will have a +2 weapon for, effectively, the whole day, spending only one spell slot. I think that's stronger than piling up enhancement bonuses . . . . 'Cause making a +1 enhanced weapon with 9 points of abilities *is* doable, right??
And, RE: healing in combat -- I'm actually talking the other six characters through that rationale in-character now (we had an encounter go 'danger close' with our samurai KO'd and hunter disabled in round 1, and some expressed concern at my efforts to murderize the baddies rather than spend the resources to "save" them straightaway). I don't want to have to heal tactically, but sometimes it's called for; I put the 15 in Cha because I don't yet know for sure if our GM is gonna push quantity of fights over quality, or vice versa. Being the primary (just about *only*) healer puts a great deal of responsibility on me as a player, and charactef -- I chose to be cautious.
I had to get my head around the same thing previous. I like the result of using it.
What others have said.
Though I haven't played with such a ruling, I would think that other things than DPS become more important; Damage over time spells have a longer period to do damage in, save or suck spells have a longer period to suck over.
No matter how well prepared you are for healing, you cannot outheal an encounter. Emergency healing, sure, and removal of status effects, but preparation saves more lives than healing an idiot who rushes blindly in. Cast Aid before an encounter - it preserves hit points just like healing while providing additional benefits. Boost defences so they get hit less often. Summon Monsters to act as flanking buddies/distractions/throwaway tanks/damage soaks. Cast Grease to separate the antagonists so that you can deal with them piecemeal. Get creative.
I like using half+2 HP rule but I just axed it in favor of max hp in my camapaign, among many other things, in my efforts to simplify things for the less optimization inclined.
I didn't do the math, but combat lasting longer just seems to make power attack even better to me.
|
I use the PFS hit point rules (full at level 1 and half rounded up for all other levels). I think having lower hit points makes modifiers such as constitution and toughness more meaningful. It also makes combat a wee bit more dangerous.
I also do the same for monsters (which is what the books do by default anyway). IF I want an extra tough monster, I just add a template to it or a simple +4 constitution.
I also do the same for monsters (which is what the books do by default anyway). IF I want an extra tough monster, I just add a template to it or a simple +4 constitution.
Or give a few class levels in an appropriate class.
The other thing about max Hp is greater variance between class hit die.
Using PFS rules, a d6 = 4hp maxing is +2hp per level.
A barbarians with a d12 = 7hp, maxing is +5hp per level.
So instead of the barb getting 3hp more than the wizard per level he's getting 6hp more. So the differences in HP are much larger than normal.
My group just uses average hp per HD, no rolling. We found a long time ago that for players, having less tan avg hp (due to bad rolls) was for more hurtful than some players having higher than avg hp due to good rolls. There were few instances where a PC would have stayed conscious or lived due to a little extra hp. Now that being said, max HP on PCs would be different because we're talking potentially about 55 points of health on a level 10 barbarian on average vs max. That is substantial.
It adds a lot of survivability to PCs.
As for adding it to monsters...my group is highly optimized. When I GM I usually end up maxing HP and adding the advanced template to everything (which includes an extra 2hp per HD). And they still only get average hp.
The main problem of max HP, at high levels, is not that it makes the barbarian too survivable, but that it makes the gap too huge, negating the importance of constitution, toughness, diehard, and other such options. Especially when you tack on top of the gap the fact that the fighter probably did take one or both of these feats, probably put a good stat in con to begin with, and probably dumped a lot of gold on improving it, the difference becomes huge.
A lvl 20 fighter with 14+2 con, bracers granting him +4 con, toughness, and diehard will require 320 damage to stagger, and 340 damage to knock out. A lvl 20 sorcerer with just 14 con and bracers granting him +2 con will have 180 HP, so will require just about half as much damage to knock out. If for whatever reason, the enemy melee creatures/dudes get past the tank (failed a save, bad positioning, etc.), then anything that was meant to be able to at least scare the tank a little would be devastating to the caster.
With half+2, the fighter gets 60 less HP, and the sorcerer gets only 20 less, so the gap is 40 HP smaller. Reduces the disparity to more acceptable levels, imo, and really makes those feats and con score more meaningful.
I've recently experimented with the PCs having max HP but not necessarily the monsters. This allows me to throw more bad guys into an encounter, which is just more fun for everyone imo!
So far it has worked well, though my results are anecdotal.
|
What gets me interested is that in this way you shift the relationship between damage and accuracy. Normally those two go up at the same time (higher CR monsters get more strength, so do more damage and better to-hit).
However, if you want fights that last a little longer, but don't want to do it by having people miss a lot due to high AC, then this might be a solution.
However, it also promotes SoD/SoS style casting because winning by HP damage goes slower. And you gotta wonder if that's what you want.
2) Here's a link to the character in question. You'll notice this is not an optimized build. Given the ability scores (16/13/14/09/15/15 -- die rolls, not point-buy), the fact that this character is the party healer, and the fact that healing magic has not been modified in any way: am I right in not trying to take this character toward save-or-suck effects?
Correct link: Kairon Daaltin
3) Am I correct in concluding that repeatable damage output (i.e., weapon attacks) will be even more important for party success than is normally the case?
If your fights usually end due to damage dealt, then the fights will be longer. If they end due to status effects, then there will be little change.
Since an enemy at 1hp is a potent as one at 100hp, the hp damage will take a longer time. But the status effect ignores hp, so is unaffected.
4) Our GM has approved the Sacred Summons feat being allowed with the celestial template -- a huge boon. I plan on taking the feat at level 5, when it first becomes relevant. Is there a short list of the most combat-effective creatures for each level of summon monster?
First, bookmark this: Guide to the Guides
Here are three of the guides on this collection:
Spells Your Summoned Monsters Can Cast (Short)
Summon Good Monster: A Closer Look (Thread)
Why Work When Others Can do it For You (Monster Summoning)
/cevah