Least Favorite Gods


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Since the Favorite gods thread has been so interesting (if you're interested the run away queen seems to be Shelyn ;)) I was wondering if people had found any gods that really rubbed them up the wrong way? (also have a suspicions we might get some fun rants about this :P ) just remember its fine if people don't like your pick for best god lets not turn things toxic.

I'll start us off.

Erastil: First off I'd just like to say, I find cute cottages and little villages really creepy. I also find a god of traditional none forward thinking stuff to be frustrating and possibly detrimental. I may be biased after a run in with some very awkward little village government types who were all tradition no logic xD

Irori: He is the god of enlightenment and self perfection, who holds a grudge against gods who ascended through the star stone? Sounds like a very petty kind of enlightenment to me. Also recently had a run in with a town ran by priest of his who was very discriminatory to my chaotic neutral Mesmerist >.>

Also I'm fairly sure there is some heathen god out there who wants to overthrow Pharasma as the god of death. Should be the god of pipe dreams am I write? lol I know he exists and he seems super evil and edgelordy and would really be a terrible representation of death. Which is a neutral natural force. Can't seem to find his name.


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which one is the muppet who just likes putting traps on mountain passes for no reason

oh Zyphus, thank you Pathfinderwiki

yeah that donkey can sit on it and twirl as far as I am concerned


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Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

Since the Favorite gods thread has been so interesting (if you're interested the run away queen seems to be Shelyn ;)) I was wondering if people had found any gods that really rubbed them up the wrong way? (also have a suspicions we might get some fun rants about this :P ) just remember its fine if people don't like your pick for best god lets not turn things toxic.

I'll start us off.

Erastil: First off I'd just like to say, I find cute cottages and little villages really creepy. I also find a god of traditional none forward thinking stuff to be frustrating and possibly detrimental. I may be biased after a run in with some very awkward little village government types who were all tradition no logic xD

Irori: He is the god of enlightenment and self perfection, who holds a grudge against gods who ascended through the star stone? Sounds like a very petty kind of enlightenment to me. Also recently had a run in with a town ran by priest of his who was very discriminatory to my chaotic neutral Mesmerist >.>

Also I'm fairly sure there is some heathen god out there who wants to overthrow Pharasma as the god of death. Should be the god of pipe dreams am I write? lol I know he exists and he seems super evil and edgelordy and would really be a terrible representation of death. Which is a neutral natural force. Can't seem to find his name.

Thanks for this thread!

I... pretty strongly disagree with the first 2/3s your choices, buuuu~uuuut, that's the nature of personal opinion...! XD

(Also, for the last, you're thinking of Zyphus; he's a god of accidental death and graveyards and tragedy; similarly, Urgathoa is directly opposed to Pharasma, and the feeling is mutual.)

That said:

- I find Cayden to be personally frustrating; not because he's a jerk, but because of my own life situation, and how badly alcohol has harmed those I know. I find anyone who's strongly associated with it something of a turn-off as a result (even though I know that in-canon, he's explicitly against allowing the alcohol to control you).

- I don't think that either Gorum or Asmodeus are all that interesting, over-all; I think both are perfectly functional and useful, but they aren't enthralling to me.

- There are a number of demon lords and infernal dukes that go right to, "NOPE~!" and make me NOPE right out of wherever it is.

- Not exactly in keeping with the theme of the thread, but the dearth of information on the Peacock Spirit is... bothersome.

- Related, I really don't think Lissala should have been Lawful Evil... but I understand why that decision was made.

- Definitely not in keeping with the main spirit of the thread, but... I wish that entities like Shimye-Magalla were "real" or at least allowed to function as a patron.

EDIT: link fix


Any of the Eldest, really. I seriously dislike nature in fantasy being restricted to nature in reality, and that bleeds over to anybody in charge of keeping my beloved ironclad dinosaurs in the "unnatural" camp. Also because they can't own up to their average alignment being below neutral (with a notable lack of any Good eldest), and keep calling their plane Neutrally aligned.


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Norgorber has my least favorite name in all of Pathfinder, gods or anything else. It sounds like a hazing name in a fraternity made up by someone who isn't quite fluent in his own native language.


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ZYPHUS! HIM screw that guy! I don't mind Urgathoa because I think she is an interesting twist on how undead came about.

But this guy! first of all god of accidental deaths is a ridiculously arbitrary domain as if accidental deaths needed another god to all the other deaths. But besides that he is the god of accidents and grants power to a cult which has taken his name, that arranges deaths (so a murder cult) but it still counts because reasons?

On top of all that, he is a grim edgy evil grim death lord of evil grim death and really doesn't represent the true nature of death (as I see it) and is quite teen angst.


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You know I've never thought about it before but Norgorber isn't exactly the nicest name xD you're right.


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For reasons similar to Tactics, I too dislike Cayden. Alcohol has always been a negative in my life and family. Waking up after being blackout drunk doesn't lead to divinity so much as to DWI.

I'm not wild about Pharasma either. She seems boring to me and comes off like a noncommittal Mary Sue. "Pharasma is totally powerful enough to do X, she just chooses not to."


Iomedae, because I played with a guy who kept going on about how perfect she was.

Urgathoa & Lamashtu, because I'm just not big on the body horror.

Irori, because he seems kind of like the "monk god" and not a whole lot else.


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@Scythia funnily enough I find her non-commitment quite charming and essential to her character. Funny how people are different isn't it xD.


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Actually, Norgorber sounds like something you'd see Liz Lemon say to someone as a lame burn and then look embarrassed and slink out of the room in shame after saying it.

"What? No I'm not! You are you, you...Norgorber." (Turns red, flees.)


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As far as overthrowing Pharasma, don't forget about Mahathallah, the fallen psychopomp and Whore Queen.


I don't really know enough about her backstory or fluff enough to know if I hate her or don't mind.

EDIT: Given what I do know, a psychopomp serving the god of death who saw her death and fled, doesn't make much sense to me.

If she toed the company line she had nothing to fear in death, so I can only assume she must have thought herself above it or had some grand plan she feared she would not be able to complete. I.E not a very good servant of a neutral death god. Makes a decent villain though, not hate worthy on its own.

Grand Lodge

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Pharasma annoys me because of how meh she is about anything. The only thing that really ticks her off is undead and that not too much at that.


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Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

Since the Favorite gods thread has been so interesting (if you're interested the run away queen seems to be Shelyn ;)) I was wondering if people had found any gods that really rubbed them up the wrong way? (also have a suspicions we might get some fun rants about this :P ) just remember its fine if people don't like your pick for best god lets not turn things toxic.

I'll start us off.

Erastil: First off I'd just like to say, I find cute cottages and little villages really creepy. I also find a god of traditional none forward thinking stuff to be frustrating and possibly detrimental. I may be biased after a run in with some very awkward little village government types who were all tradition no logic xD

Irori: He is the god of enlightenment and self perfection, who holds a grudge against gods who ascended through the star stone? Sounds like a very petty kind of enlightenment to me. Also recently had a run in with a town ran by priest of his who was very discriminatory to my chaotic neutral Mesmerist >.>

Also I'm fairly sure there is some heathen god out there who wants to overthrow Pharasma as the god of death. Should be the god of pipe dreams am I write? lol I know he exists and he seems super evil and edgelordy and would really be a terrible representation of death. Which is a neutral natural force. Can't seem to find his name.

Well of course Shelyn is in the lead, Shelyn is best girl and everyone knows it. Now, on a more negative note, I shall put (one of) my least favorite deities for each alignment. I'll try to keep close to the Core deities whenever possible so I don't just pick some minor godling and use them as just to fill up the slot, but also so I don't have to go through every single Empyreal Lord and Archfiend.

Lawful Good::
Already breaking my own rules, but to me Vildeis is probably my least favorite LG gal. First off, Vildeis is insane, and not in the "my boy-slash-girl-gender-neutral-friend actually liked *insert Tabletop game of choice* way, but in the "stabs out her own eyes so she cannot perceive Evil" way. Self mutilation? That is kyton level stuff right there. Really, to me Vildeis represents the "doing-good-right-here-right-now-no-matter-the-long-term-consequences" extremist side of good, like the 1st level paladin who detects evil on a great wyrm and moves automatically smite it, regardless of what it is doing or how ill-equipped he is to handle the backlash. "He was evil, so I killed him" isn't always the best approach, but to a being like Vildeis, they think it is, creating more headaches for the side of good in the long run.

Neutral Good::
*casts Fire Shield (warm) and Stoneskin in preparation for backlash* I'll have to say Sarenrae is my least favorite (major) NG god(dess). Now hear me out, it is not that I particularly dislike her, it is just that I like other goddesses that fill her role better. Her warlike aspect is easily co-opted by Iomedae, who being more focused into crusading fits the bill better, while redemptive qualities can easily be filled in Shelyn, who has a much more personal reason to want to redeem her enemies (Zon-Kuthon, anyone?), leaving us with just her role as goddess of healing as a major thing, (which, quite frankly, could also be rolled into the portfolios Shelyn or Erastil, albeit not as neatly.) a rather less interesting role, at least in my opinion.

Chaotic Good::
I was originally going to put Desna here (apparently because I love the taste of Directosaur tears in the evening), but then I remembered Black Butterfly exists. BB is probably the first deity on the list I legitimately dislike as opposed to just not being fond of, because she is completely useless. She is Desna's shadow, and that's about it. Someone, somewhere decided that Desna was great and all, but what really needed was more of her. Realizing that they couldn't just add Desna into the game again, they just pressed the invert button on their computer, and sent the result as a new EL (little know fact: BB's original was Ansed, but management thought Black Butterfly sounded better). The only way I'll ever get over this silliness is if EVERY god/dess's shadow becomes a demigod. At least that way everyone has it so it is at least normal.

Lawful Neutral::
The LN gods don't really do it for me, (which is funny, seeing how I actually like the alignment) so I am going to have to go with Irori. Nothing against the guy, it is just that he is Fantasy!Buddha, and as such not really very interesting to me, seeing how he is so close to actual religious figure. About as interesting as Qui-Gon in the Phantom Menace

True Neutral::
Gozreh, pretty generic god for druids to worship, and that is about it. Pass.

Chaotic Neutral::
Calistria. Like best girl Shelyn, except all about lust instead of love, and kind of a b@%&# to boot. Why worship her when Shelyn is on the table (figuratively, but I wouldn't put it past Calistria).

Lawful Evil::
I was actually originally going to put Droskar here, but what do you know, turns out he is NE, not LE, so I guess you learn a new thing every day. In his place I am going to put Lissala. Not because I dislike, on the contrary she is my favorite LN deity... or would be, if she was one. The point of the matter is that while I like her, is dislike that she is LE, so she ended up on this part of the list.

Neutral Evil::
Err... I actually like most of the NE deities, even Ahriman (sure, he is just some CR 26 upstart, but at least his servants are cool) so I am going to have to Droskar. I don't play this game to be forced to work for my boss in real life.

Chaotic Evil::
I really don't have anything here. Most of the CE deities I have heard of I like, the rest I have no strong feeling towards. I guess I'll go with Cyth-V'sug, as the idea of having anything to do with an evil mushroom dragon is just to silly for me to take seriously.

If you like any of these deities, good for you, I am am glad that you were able to take pleasure in something that I personally don't like. You are free to enjoy whatever you like.


I'm opposed to gutteral names I think. I have an immediate dislike of Gorum, Torag, and Norgorber. Also Torag especially because he's so stereotypical of a Dwarven god.


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Guttural names is a theme I did not expect to see in this thread xD


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For me? Desna.

Firstly her background and design irk me, because it feels incoherent and arbitrary. Dreams, luck, stars and travellers are her stated areas of interest. Chaos, Good, Liberation, Luck and Travel are her domains.

Wait. Liberation?

Well, yes. Liberation. Because she's also a goddess of Freedom too. And fighting tyranny. And fighting demons. And performance art. And the heavens because she created them as she's one of the oldest gods. And sort of prophecy too, because heavens. And she's a butterfly winged elf.

I get that she's intended to be somewhat enigmatic, but mostly she just comes across as a blatant example of the "chaotic means random" fallacy that the Golarion deities otherwise managed to avoid. When I read a synopsis of her to one of my players, his response was "So she's the goddess of being flighty and random?"... and it was pretty much spot on.

So when there's rebels in Nidal fighting the shadow lords and rule of Zon Kuthon's church... is it the followers of his sister, Shelyn, seeking to heal the harm her brother has wrought, and perhaps by their actions bring their lost god closer to redemption? Or is it perhaps Milani, whom is a minor god, but one of rebellion against tyranny? No. It's Desna.

So one of the gods marched into the abyss and killed a demon lord, damn near causing a war between the gods and the 666 (well, 665 at that point) demon lords of the abyss. Was it Cayden Cailean, the drunken hero in an act of reckless and daring heroism to stop the demon lord's horrific deeds in Golarion? Was it Callistria, goddess of vengeance? Was it Gorum, CN lord of war? No. It was Desna.

Thus, she wins my "Least Favourite Deity" award.

(My favourite being Shelyn. Because Paizo did an amazing job with her.)


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Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
Guttural names is a theme I did not expect to see in this thread xD

I know, I'm weird lol.

Honorable mention: Asmodeus because he's tied to real world Europe (I know he's not the only one, but he's core.) I prefer my demon names to sound Aramaic or something like Lovecraft "releasing the beast" after a night of too much tequila and taco bell.


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your actually not the first to choose a god based on their name sounding bad :P


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I already named a few in the other thread, so HERE I GO AGAIN

Lawful Good:
Erastil is a lame-ass, yo. I'm not particularly big on this nuclear family loving stag-headed loser.

Lawful Neutral:
Abadar, that filthy capitalist NERD. He can shove the entire contents of that stupid vault of his up his-

Lawful Evil:
Zon-Kuthon because body horror is not something I like to think about too often.

Neutral Good:
As I said in the other thread, Sarenrae has a lot to explain about herself for just letting her following run rampant like they do.

Neutral:
Pharasma. Enough said.

Neutral Evil:
I'm gonna shove Norgorber into a locker along with Abadar.

Chaotic Good:
One of the most baffling mismatching of alignment, philosophy and behaviour, I think that the elven god Findeladlara must be mad, because she isn't a good god by any stretch through her blatant racism, and she definitely isn't chaotic since she directly opposes innovation and change. She just...doesn't make sense!

Chaotic Neutral:
Please keep Senile Old Doot Doot in the Centre of Everything where he belongs, and could someone call somebody to collect his children and put them back into timeout? They are making such a mess.

Chaotic Evil:
Keep me away from any and all demons. Please and thank you.


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Azathoth the senile old doot doot

I knew this thread would bare fruit.


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Calistria for being just all around gross with a pinch of "oh and she's an elf, too!". Paizo tried to play up the revenge and trickery aspect of her, but in the end she just comes across as yet another sex/lust symbol that has served gaming so well in the past. :P

Close second would be every other deity whose obedience contains some variation on "obtain sexual release" while doing something. Can we please just put this crap to rest?


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I'm amazed I'll be the first to mention:

Aroden.

It's not that I have anything specifically against Aroden; no, my beef with Aroden is that his canonical story has been withheld from those that care about lore.

I can understand how mysterious leads can be enticing. Eberron did that well - the player material left a lot to the imagination. But if you wanted to look and find an official answer on something as a GM, it was there.

I'd be perfectly happy with an, "There is no official answer, and we're never going to reveal one, so do whatever works for your game and the story you want to tell." But we don't have that, either.

Instead, we've been told that there is a definitive canonical answer, and that they might reveal it someday.

It's my biggest gripe in all of PF, because as someone that actually cares really deeply about lore, it means that

A) I can't/won't touch Aroden with a 10' pole because I won't use him in our persistent gaming world only for a module to come out later that will force me to pull some stupid retcons, and

B) It means that any attempts by another GM in or group that tries to do an Aroden story will meet a vehement involuntary response on my end, because I *know* that there's an official answer, and see point A.

I don't believe everything needs to have a canonical answer - far from it; the gaps in the lore are the places that new stories can spring from. The unanswered and never-will-be-answered bits are some of my favorite bits.

But to be told that there is a canonical answer, but that we pissants just aren't allowed to know it absolutely infuriates me.


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Gulthor wrote:

I'm amazed I'll be the first to mention:

Aroden.

*GASP*

I am feeling so attacked right now!


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Iomedae. Setting aside that she's a massive stuck up trigger happy b~+@& of a hypocrite in Wrath of the Righteous, she's not very interesting. The most interesting thing about her is she's basically a god because another god liked her and she got promoted when he died.

She represents the worst aspects of Lawful Good as an alignment. Evil? F&%~ 'em all, and let me sort it out. The Crusades did nothing wrong!


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I am (pleasantly) surprised that I haven't seen Iomedae more often on the list. Me, I've always seen her portrayal in Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth as a Second Darknessesque "Erastil is a sexist and all the elves are racist @$$#oles" moment, i.e. something that wasn't supposed to come across like that and that they would fix if they ever re-released it, seeing on how it makes her seem different than all previous and subsequent details we heard about her in the fluff (including the earlier parts of the AP). Of course, all this is tinged with my natural bias of really not wanting the goddess of paladins to be a jerk, seeing as paladins have a bad enough (out-of-game) reputation as is.


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I put Iomedae in my least favourite over in the Favourite God thread. I just think Erastil was worse. I think Iomedae has caught a seriously bad rap from her portrayals alone, but since they are our only indication as to her behaviour, it doesn't look too good for her. Doot Doot'ing you into submission is not exactly a good way to get people onto your side. That, and she has the whole 'REMEMBER THE 8TH ACT' to redemption of an evil creature which seems extremely backwards when compared to Ragathiel working his butt off to prove himself despite his origins and having a much healthier perspective on redemption despite being the angel of kicking evil's ass.


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Iomadae. I don't hate her and she serves her purpose in game well enough (paladin deity hoooo), but she is frankly...uninspired. She's the same crusading martial honorable warrior that you see everywhere without fail. No spins, no interesting takes. Just plain jane Paladin patron.

Gozreh: Just dull. Nature gods are needed and all, but a lot like Io, just nothing under the tank.

Ragathiel: If there's a deity that promotes and exemplifies that trigger happy murderhobo paladin, it's this git. Paladins have it hard enough with the lawful stupid stigma and the psychotic angel declaring murderfest on anyone who so much as litters doesn't help with that.

(Dis)Honorable mention: Shelyn: I'll catch heat for this one but whatever. Shelyn sort of leaves me divided. I like her artistic and romance angle and find it refreshing compared to the normal stable of love deities you usually see on one hand. On the other Shelyn ultimately rubs me like she's a writer's pet. After all, everyone loves Shelyn (that includes you primordial engines of destruction) because Shelyn best waifu. Shelyn is more merciful than that flaming harlot Sarenrae and will try to redeem everything and even is (successfully) working on making that soul sucking doom glaive shiny and sweet! Shelyn abhors violence, but she'll beat up her Pinhead brother and take his universal devastation glaive because Shelyn best. Ugh.


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Clockwise on the alignment wheel starting with Lawful Neutral:

Irori Literally just 'let's make a monk god'. Except he's also a pretentious t#*+.

There's also really no reason for him to have that Lawful alignment other than the fact that he's the monk god and deities that have an alignment just because really irks me.

Iomedae If Irori is the monk god she's the paladin god. Except she's terrible at being a paladin. People give Torag and Ragathiel crap but she's just ridiculous.

Sarenrae The Neutral Good god of redemption, honesty and slavery. Yeah...

Milani I actually like Milani. But I'm not a fan of how she's just sort of ended up cemented in the lore as basically Iomedae's sidekick.

Groetus He's so enigmatic it just gets to the point where I wonder why I should even care. Too enigmatic for me to make a call on his alignment, but everything written about him certainly makes him sound evil.

Otherwise I'm pretty happy with the chaotic good and chaotic neutral deities.

Chaotic Evil on the other hand, I just feel like most of the non-demon lord deities are too one dimensional.

Neutral Evil is okay too

Asmodeus Again an example of a poorly aligned character. Everything about him is NE, but he's LE. Because that's what he's supposed to be, or something. He also suffers from being too conniving and too brilliant to the point where most people I know just roll their eyes. Sort of a 'tries too hard' thing with how he's written. I guess.

Pharasma Someone upthread called her a Mary Sue and I'm hesitant to use that moniker only because she never does anything, but it certainly does fit in a sense. She's so powerful and so cool and so beyond everyone but why should anyone care because she's about as exciting as a jar of dirt.


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Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
I put Iomedae in my least favourite over in the Favourite God thread. I just think Erastil was worse. I think Iomedae has caught a seriously bad rap from her portrayals alone, but since they are our only indication as to her behaviour, it doesn't look too good for her. Doot Doot'ing you into submission is not exactly a good way to get people onto your side. That, and she has the whole 'REMEMBER THE 8TH ACT' to redemption of an evil creature which seems extremely backwards when compared to Ragathiel working his butt off to prove himself despite his origins and having a much healthier perspective on redemption despite being the angel of kicking evil's ass.

Eh, I can't fault anyone for disliking Iomedae; once a first impression is made, it tends to stick with you, and reputations are (much) easier to destroy than to build (Erastil still can't shake off a reputation of being a sexist, even though that is no longer canon). I merely feel it is out-of-character for her compared to previous knowledge of her character , so I pretend it didn't happen (as a comic book fan, I have plenty of practice on that front). As for Ragathiel, I rather like him and his herculean tasks which he achieved to find acceptance, it is just I like the idea of an Idealistic paladin thrust into command after her superior officer died, leading her to fight the good fight to purge the wicked and protect the innocent even better. But then, it is only natural for different people to have different opinions, after all, each one is as right as the other.


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Tarik Blackhands wrote:

After all, everyone loves Shelyn (that includes you primordial engines of destruction) because Shelyn best waifu.

Bu-but Shelyn is best waifu! Check the polls if you don't believe me, the graphs say they are true! Statistics and fanboys can't be wrong, can they?

The truth:
But seriously though, Shelyn is best girl.


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Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Shelyn: I'll catch heat for this one but whatever. Shelyn sort of leaves me divided. I like her artistic and romance angle and find it refreshing compared to the normal stable of love deities you usually see on one hand. On the other Shelyn ultimately rubs me like she's a writer's pet.

Though Shelyn is one of my favorite deities, I am actually with you on this one. Some of the writing about her and the items associated with her are just too trite and borderline preschool. (Yeah, I'm looking at you, "Beautiful War Paint".)


John Mechalas wrote:

Though Shelyn is one of my favorite deities, I am actually with you on this one. Some of the writing about her and the items associated with her are just too trite and borderline preschool. (Yeah, I'm looking at you, "Beautiful War Paint".)

What's the war paint you're talking about? Haven't come across that one...


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Tarik Blackhands wrote:
What's the war paint you're talking about? Haven't come across that one...

One of the Shelyn-themed magic items from Inner Sea Gods. Archives of Nethys has the writeup.


Ouch, all the hate for Irori.

Y'all just jealous 'cuz he's a self-made god.


Thanks for that. Really gives me a square peg, round hole vibe that I tend to feel whenever the concept of militant Shelynites comes up.


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Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Paladins have it hard enough with the lawful stupid stigma and the psychotic angel declaring murderfest on anyone who so much as litters doesn't help with that.

I know Ragathiel is the cool guy to hate but can we at least be accurate about it?

Because his paladin code literally says the exact opposite of this. That you should never seek disproportionate retribution. In fact he's the only lawful good deity with anything of the sort in his code as far as I know.


Sundakan wrote:

Ouch, all the hate for Irori.

Y'all just jealous 'cuz he's a self-made god.

So is Nethys, and I don't think he has come up in this thread yet.


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Squiggit wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Paladins have it hard enough with the lawful stupid stigma and the psychotic angel declaring murderfest on anyone who so much as litters doesn't help with that.

I know Ragathiel is the cool guy to hate but can we at least be accurate about it?

Because his paladin code literally says the exact opposite of this. That you should never seek disproportionate retribution. In fact he's the only lawful good deity with anything of the sort in his code as far as I know.

Of course you say that, but then there's his deific obedience that demands you slaughter a proven evil person OR lawbreaker. So yeah, you totally can throw a guy into a pyre for littering and Rags will be okay with it (just expect to stick around the LN section of his worshippers)


Ooh, I am no expert on the gods, but I have to vote:

Erastil, god of sexism. Who condemns any followers who commit suicide to the Hells for eternity.

I think they have tried to retcon this back a bits, but still. Guys. Really guys? This big rubbery phallus is the front and center for Lawful Goodness?

Grand Lodge

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Cayden Cailean. He's just such a frat boy. I want to deck him.


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Tarik Blackhands wrote:


Of course you say that, but then there's his deific obedience that demands you slaughter a proven evil person OR lawbreaker. So yeah, you totally can throw a guy into a pyre for littering and Rags will be okay with it (just expect to stick around the LN section of his worshippers)

Except a capital punishment for littering clearly goes against that "do not seek disproportionate retribution" thing. So not at all.


That's a paladin code. The bulk of his worshipers are not beholden to such standards. The point is, that obedience demands that you summarily execute an evil guy or an unlawful guy each and every day ideally. Your only restriction is you need proof of evil or unlawful deeds (magnitude of such are left to the executioner's discretion). Other than that, good hunting.

It's this sort of thing that puts me in the camp that Ragathiel is on the side of "psychotic smite happy angel" more than "militant angel trying to show how good he is"

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I've always assumed with him being LG and the "proven wrongdoer" requirement you had to execute someone actually, ya'know, eligible for execution and not just every litterbug and Noise complaint.


It's an extremely vague obedience because as I said, there's absolutely no requirement that your wrongdoer actually have done something worthy of capital punishment. That and the fact he offers you no alternative in the case you can't find some execution fodder (virtually every other deity that needs a person other than you to complete their obedience generally has a solo alternative).

All doesn't help with the SMITE THEM ALL image Rags has garnered for himself.


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Here goes my list, along with some that don't actually make the cut of least favorite, and the reasons why:

Lawful Good

  • I used to think Erastil, because he was sexist until that got retconned. But rather than gripe about the retcon, I'm going to make a story out of it: He tried to promote family integrity, not realizing until too late that an awful lot of people would take that the wrong way. So now, he has tried to repair this sin within his following, but with only partial success. Some people just won't get the message.
  • I was going to say Iomedae, because she gives you trick questions, and if you answer in a way she doesn't like, she has her host blast you with a dangerous dose of scratchy violins, screeching piccolos, nauseating trumpets, etc. But again I want to make a story out of it . . . This is the deity who started out Good but is now cracking under the pressure. Time for a Fall of the Righteous AP . . . .
  • Torag, Dammerich, and Ragathiel are better candidates for least favorite, for being overzealous -- they would fit better as Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good . . . at best Lawful Neutral (Good) if the Pathfinder Campaign Setting had kept the planes at multiples of 22.5° (Arcadia in the PlaneScape setting), and definitely Axis instead of Heaven given that Paizo didn't keep these. But these can't beat what Malefactor named above . . . .
  • Vildeis -- for all the same reasons Malefactor listed. Claw your own eyes out so that you can't see Evil, rather than dealing with it? This is worse than sticking your head in the sand . . . .

Lawful Neutral

  • I can do no better than Garbage-Tier Waifu, and name Abadar straight off the bat. How do you have Capitalism and the steamrolling of less militarily and technology advanced peoples and not be Evil? Suggested remedy: Keep the concept, but have him tilted towards Evil (would be Acheron if the Pathfinder Campaign Setting had retained the PlaneScape outer planes at multiples of 22.5°).

Lawful Evil

  • Hard to make a choice here, since the Pathfinder Campaign Setting seems to have gotten their Lawful Evil down pretty well. It's easy to hate Asmodeus for his overarching Evil, but he's supposed to be Evil. Love to Hate.

Neutral Good

  • I have to agree immediately with both Malefactor and Garbage-Tier Waifu about Sarenrae. Not only does she let her more corrupt followers run rampant over everyone else (and each other) even though she is in command of the most powerful fusion reactor within several light years, but while she claims to be the goddess of redemption, she doesn't even do a good job of it. No one seems to be very good at it, but at least Desna and Shelyn seem to have some actual success at this. Suggested remedy: Asmodeus has somehow got a gun to Sarenrae's head . . . or worse; he is slowly corrupting her (along with Iomedae).
  • As (dis)honorable mention, I'll go along with John Macalas about Shelyn over Beautiful War Paint. Require somebody to paint over their own natural appearance to be seen as beautiful? Okay, maybe it's intended mainly for emergency use . . . And then let's talk about that artwork with her posing scantily clad with a glaive in a way that most reminds me of an NRA/militia sex picture calendar/poster . . . okay, I'm going to make a story out of this: This is a picture that Shelyn posed for back before she had matured, and now it's in all her temples and she can't get rid of it, just like people who post nude pictures of themselves on Facebook and now can't live it down . . . .
  • As another (dis)honorable mention, I'll say something that isn't a deity, although devotees of the various Good deities are expected to use these often on a daily basis: Conjuration (Healing) spells: Put them back in Necromancy where they belong!

Neutral

  • Pharasma. I hate over-deities on Earth and I hate them in fantasy settings, and I also hate enforcement of death when it is even against those who don't hurt anybody else in their evasion of death. In contrast to the first part of this, Asmodeus is an over-deity wannabe, but despite any proclamations to the contray, he's not there yet, and it is possible (even though extremely difficult) to oppose him, even though he's clearly beyond the ability of any mortal or group thereof (and several deities as well) to fight in personal combat. Suggested remedy: Replace with a less powerful deity of death and sorting of souls.

Neutral Evil

  • Hard to make a choice here. Urgathoa is gross, but I have to give her grudging respect for getting away from Pharasma (see above).
  • Norgorber is a despicable scumbag, but he's supposed to be a despicable scumbag. His name isn't very good, but then it makes me think of Goblins having trouble with his name, and ending up against him, despite similarities in alignment, being unable to get along with . . . Nobooger!
  • Have to hate Droskar for being a Pointy-Haired Boss, but again, he's supposed to be a Pointy-Haired Boss.
  • Going to have to go with others' choice of Zyphus (in various people's posts above). The inevitable randomness of the "accidental" nature of the deaths he and his followers cause would fit with Chaotic Evil, not so much with Neutral Evil, unless he was specifically allied with the Daemons. This is part of the problem that the Pathfinder Campaign Setting seems to share with earlier D&D settings: confusion of Neutral Evil with Chaotic Evil (see below).

Chaotic Good

  • Have to go straight to Cayden Cailean, for his primary portfolio being advocacy of the use of at least one mind-altering addictive substance. Yes, he says he's against irresponsible use, but that's what they all say . . . . Suggested remedy: Move to Chaotic Neutral. This still leaves room for a substantial set of Good people who are delusional enough to think that they can combine his practices with being Good.

Chaotic Neutral

  • Have to go straight to a 3-way tie between Besmara, Calistria, and Gorum. How are the promotion of any of them (piracy, trickery + revenge + prostitution, and war) not supposed to be Evil overall? Suggested remedy: Move to Chaotic Evil. Edit: Originally had "practices" instead of "promotion" by mistake.

Chaotic Evil

  • Hard to make a choice here, since the Pathfinder Campaign Setting seems to have gotten their Chaotic Evil down pretty well, except for one notable problem: confusion of Chaotic Evil with Neutral Evil (and to a lesser extent with Chaotic Neutral) -- even the updated version of the alignment descriptions has this problem. Straighten this mess out, and we can call it good . . . er, I mean EVIL.


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Oh, well, I would hate to inform everyone that I have allowed for the execution of the butcher for improperly pricing his meat according to weight variance in accordance to local pricing by weight.

He was a wrongdoer. His chicken thighs reeked of evil. The paladin of Ragathiel explained it as such and showed me his certificate in lawful executions and everything. It all checked out to me!


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UnArcaneElection wrote:
How are the practices of any of them (piracy, trickery + revenge + prostitution, and war) not supposed to be Evil overall?

I don't see anything remotely evil about trickery, revenge, or prostitution. Those are all solidly neutral in my book.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
How are the practices of any of them (piracy, trickery + revenge + prostitution, and war) not supposed to be Evil overall?
I don't see anything remotely evil about trickery, revenge, or prostitution. Those are all solidly neutral in my book.

Meant to say "practices" instead of "promotion". Fixed in original above, and added edit note.

Somebody that promotes people doing those things as ends and not just means is definitely promoting Evil. Ways to do the above and NOT be Evil:

Piracy: Only if you are doing the Robin Hood thing. This is not Besmara's shtick.
Trickery: Self-defense. Calistria doesn't limit it to this.
Revenge: Justice. Calistria doesn't do it for justice.
Prostitution: Survival. Calistria goes far beyond that.
War: Self-defense and/or justice. Gorum quite explicitly doesn't care about these things.

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