Least Favorite Gods


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Shadow Lodge

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I think you are confusing "sexist" with things like wrong, evil, and similar words.

But, you are correct in a sense. As there was never a real or perceived disparity in power/rights between the genders in Golarion, there is no sexism in the setting.

Now, that being said, in hopes on not getting this thread locked, can we agree to disagree and move on, accepting that different folks have different opinions, and a good setting should allow for different opinions and views?

Personally, I can see why folks would not like this and many other aspects of different things, BUT, I appreciate these things as they allow for interesting hooks, questions, and possibilities instead of making things boring and standard.


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Absolutely agree. :-)

Silver Crusade

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DM Beckett wrote:
I think you are confusing "sexist" with things like wrong, evil, and similar words.

There's no confusing, that's what it is.


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It is wrong, but I do agree this isn't the place to hash it out. :-)


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Rysky wrote:
And sexist does not equal Good.

But does it preclude it alltogether?

Considering some of the iffy things some of the other gods do (ragathiel obviously likes killing, Torag has a brutally practical approach to Orc tribes) it would be kind of weird that upholding traditional gender roles would be too evil to get over, especially when he's doing it with good intentions.

We're talking about the god of small communities when said small communities have to deal with everything rampaging dragons, owl bears, bullettes, oddly predatory wolves that will attack bands of well armed adventurers, roaving orc bands, kappies that will make you drown yourself for S&G, and swarms of insects that can strip a peasant to bare bones in 6 seconds.

Sexual dimorphism may be purely cosmetic in world, but reproduction is not*. Men are still the expendable gender. Sending them out to farm, hunt, and get meat makes sense in a dangerous world where losing 10 people a year could very well doom your entire community. Losing a husband hurts, but losing a wife will kill any child they're carrying and pose a severe risk for any nursing children they're leaving behind.

Men are more likely to try to take those risks.

Taking that trend and trying to apply it to more individuals than it really applies to is the problem with Law, not Evil. It's taking what's best for the community as a whole no matter if that sucks for the individuals within it: the woman who wants to hunt and the man who'd rather be a baker and well alive, too bad suck it up your tribe/town/villiage/country needs you, and to a lawful being that community comes above individual wants and desires.

The mechanism of enforcement matters here too. As far as i know erastil just shakes his finger at you, or at worst, doesn't help you, if you're not going along with the rest of the community.

*Statement not valid at the church of lamasthu. If swelling persists more than 8 months, please contact your midwife


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His repulsive rictus grows ever larger in response to the sudden change in the thread's topic, and imminent locking...

What an unfortunate turn of events, seems my work here is done.

This is what you all get for mocking me!


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Soon!...


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Great! Now you woke him up!

grabs a well worn copy of Go, Dog, Go!

Well, come on! Someone has to sing It's a Small World After All, and I'm just not into it.


YES...

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

LET THE BATTLE OF THE SEXES BEGIN!!!!!


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tosses a chainsaw into the ring.

Oh dear! Where did that come from.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Rysky wrote:
And sexist does not equal Good.

But does it preclude it alltogether?

This. I have zero issue with Lawful Good deities having some flaws or moral failings, particularly in a world as dangerous as Golarion.

While I totally understand that someone would be upset by it, Golarion is not some cheerful world overflowing with hope and good guys who win every time. Even the best people won't be perfect.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

There's a difference between a Good person having a major moral flaw, and a full on Good God having a major moral flaw.

Asking for such a being, something that epitomizes what they're alignment is, a being that epitomizes Good to be sexist, not only says that sexism isn't wrong, but that it's also a good thing.

You can have a Good person mess up and make a sexist comment every now then, but if they an entire sexist mindset then they are not Good, they may not be Evil, but they're not Good. Likewise, you can't have a Good God be sexist, and they remain being a Good God.


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Gods don't "epitomize what their alignment is". None of them do. That's every single bit of the fun and interest in pantheons like this. The gods are basically just people who are unimaginably powerful.

They all have their own interests and desires. This is what makes Greek myths so interesting and the gods' portfolios so eclectic. The ocean god is also the god of horses because one day he was like "You know what'd be cool? Four legged creatures that run really fast and can pull carts good."

Those details and foibles are what makes gods interesting. That's why, excepting Iomedae, the mortal gods are the most interesting. Irori is a prideful monk who basically just wants to do his own thing forever. Cayden likes to get sauced and free slaves. Norgorber is beset with crippling paranoia. And Nethys is b%~**++ crazy.

This extends to some of the other gods as well. Torag is cool because he shows "Good is not nice". He's pretty objectively a racist a+$+$~&, and yet he's Lawful Good.

You're confusing Angels and Devils, who LITERALLY epitomize what their alignments are about, and the gods who are individuals who happen to share those alignments.

If the gods are meant to epitomize their alignments, there's no point for them to exist. At best, there should be 9 of them, one for each alignment, and they should just be bland caricatures of the alignment traits.

Thankfully, they're not.


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What's more funny is even though angels/devils/whatever epitomize alignment, they're still capable of falling/being redeemed which you'd think would be impossible since such acts go against their very nature/existence but hey, people dig redeemed succubi and fallen angels.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Erastil is a primordial deity from the beginning of time.


I like good gods having flaws as well as I like evil gods having some «good» points to show that nothing is perfect nor completely flawed, not even a god, and everything depends a lot on different points of view.
But if an inherent point of a god doesn't match his alignment, that might be an important issue. And what is good and what is evil is also debatable, so it doesn't make it easier.
Anyway, to me, imperfect or wrong is not necessarily evil and even a good god can be mistaken in some of his points of view.


Rysky wrote:
Erastil is a primordial deity from the beginning of time.

No, he's an old crotchety deity from a time of post-apocalypse hunter-gather society.

His literal schtick is that he's incapable of getting with the times. "Except for this one thing" hurts more than it helps there.

He is one of the first gods, yes. That does not preclude him from having flaws. Otherwise that logic would apply to all of the other old deities, and that's not the case.

Regardless, he still has something worse in his portfolio than casual sexism and is still Lawful good (he condemns the souls of suicides to eternal torment in Hell), so there's proof for my position that you can be a despicable creature and still be Good.


Sundakan wrote:


Regardless, he still has something worse in his portfolio than casual sexism and is still Lawful good (he condemns the souls of suicides to eternal torment in Hell).

I thought Torag was the LG guy who throws your rear in hell for suicide. Does Erastil do it too or is it just a LG thing in general?


Rysky wrote:

There's a difference between a Good person having a major moral flaw, and a full on Good God having a major moral flaw.

That would be a thing if Erastil's sexist views would had been the only or at least the biggest offender.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

No, he fought against Rovagug, so he's definitely primordial.

And I'd check about that suicide thing, there wasn't any mention of it in his Inner Sea Gods article so like the sexism it might have gotten tossed too.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Rysky wrote:

There's a difference between a Good person having a major moral flaw, and a full on Good God having a major moral flaw.

That would be a thing if Erastil's sexist views would had been the only or at least the biggest offender.

Erastil was the only Good God incorrectly given sexist views in his original writeup.


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(For the record, Erastil and Torag throwing suicdees to Avernus is from a 2012 Kobold Quarterly, make of that what you will)


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Rysky wrote:
And sexist does not equal Good.
But does it preclude it alltogether?

It's interesting to note that sexism - like all other "-isms" - is predicated on the idea of intrinsic inequality due to certain inherent traits.

The thing is, those attitudes are present in other aspects of the game world, and don't seem to present (nearly as much of) an alignment problem there. Leaving aside the issue with racial discrimination (ranging from dwarves hating goblinoids and orcs to virtually everyone hating demons and devils), there's also the inherent inequality of aristrocracy, which holds that some people are simply better than others due purely to their lineage.

While there are some notable exceptions to the contrary (e.g. the citizens of Andoran), there are a lot of people who believe in kings and nobles, and are still good-aligned individuals. That, to me, says that you don't need to hold to the idea of inherent equality in order to be good.


Rysky wrote:
Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Rysky wrote:

There's a difference between a Good person having a major moral flaw, and a full on Good God having a major moral flaw.

That would be a thing if Erastil's sexist views would had been the only or at least the biggest offender.
Erastil was the only Good God incorrectly given sexist views in his original writeup.

I mean, you don't seem to have an issue with the other moral flaws the good deity have.


Rysky wrote:
No, he fought against Rovagug, so he's definitely primordial.

The planet existed before Rovagug was sealed in it. It may have been a really long time ago, but it wasn't "before time".

They sealed Rovagug because he was going to "destroy the world". Considering that wouldn't really matter if it was just a hunk of rock anyway, that means there must have been some life on the planet already, though it is "so long ago that perhaps even the Aboleth don't remember it".

The italicized word is telling since it suggests pretty strongly that the aboleths existed at the time, with their vast civilization and all that.

Silver Crusade

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Sundakan wrote:
Rysky wrote:
No, he fought against Rovagug, so he's definitely primordial.

The planet existed before Rovagug was sealed in it. It may have been a really long time ago, but it wasn't "before time".

They sealed Rovagug because he was going to "destroy the world". Considering that wouldn't really matter if it was just a hunk of rock anyway, that means there must have been some life on the planet already, though it is "so long ago that perhaps even the Aboleth don't remember it".

The italicized word is telling since it suggests pretty strongly that the aboleths existed at the time, with their vast civilization and all that.

He was trying to destroy the whole universe, not just Golarion. They just chose that planet as his prison.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Rysky wrote:

There's a difference between a Good person having a major moral flaw, and a full on Good God having a major moral flaw.

That would be a thing if Erastil's sexist views would had been the only or at least the biggest offender.
Erastil was the only Good God incorrectly given sexist views in his original writeup.
I mean, you don't seem to have an issue with the other moral flaws the good deity have.

Oh no, I do.


Rysky wrote:
Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Rysky wrote:

There's a difference between a Good person having a major moral flaw, and a full on Good God having a major moral flaw.

That would be a thing if Erastil's sexist views would had been the only or at least the biggest offender.
Erastil was the only Good God incorrectly given sexist views in his original writeup.
I mean, you don't seem to have an issue with the other moral flaws the good deity have.
Oh no, I do.

Got it.


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I think good gods having nasty qualities is quite interesting honestly, Sundakan is right the gods aren't physical imbodiments of there alignment otherwise all lawful good gods would be the exact same. Some good gods are racist, some good gods are sexist, harking back to the capricious deities of classical world pantheons like Greece and Rome.

Anyway the gods have arrived in thread and are predicting the end times so if we could leave the gods are ist/isms and therefore evil chat alone that would be great.

Has anyone said they hate Nethys yet?


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Nethys? Oh, I hate him. He always brings brandy to the wapatuli and makes it taste like cough syrup.


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Sundakan wrote:


Regardless, he still has something worse in his portfolio than casual sexism and is still Lawful good (he condemns the souls of suicides to eternal torment in Hell), so there's proof for my position that you can be a despicable creature and still be Good.

Condemning someone for a choice they make is pretty different than condemning someone for their genetics though, so that's definitely not worse. Understandable in a way, even.


Bill Dunn wrote:
Nethys? Oh, I hate him. He always brings brandy to the wapatuli and makes it taste like cough syrup.

Am I missing something xD


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swoosh wrote:
Sundakan wrote:


Regardless, he still has something worse in his portfolio than casual sexism and is still Lawful good (he condemns the souls of suicides to eternal torment in Hell), so there's proof for my position that you can be a despicable creature and still be Good.
Condemning someone for a choice they make is pretty different than condemning someone for their genetics though, so that's definitely not worse. Understandable in a way, even.

Discriminating against someone for a finite span of years is bad.

Handing someone over to be tortured for an infinite span of time and then have them be turned into soldiers in your OWN ENEMY'S ARMY is quite literally INFINITELY WORSE (and dumber).

There is no crime imaginable on the human scale that compares to the utter injustice and cruelty of sentencing someone to ANY punishment for an infinite time period.


Well that's an argument against the concept of Hell in general more than anything else.


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This is ignoring that depression, or even "just" great emotional duress is not generally something you choose to be afflicted with either.

swoosh wrote:
Well that's an argument against the concept of Hell in general more than anything else.

And that generally people are sent to Hell by the great sorting algorithm of the universe, or at worst a dispassionate deity that looks at your alignment and shunts you off to one predetermined plane of post-mortal existence.

Erastil is, then, bypassing the natural order as well. So Chaotic and Evil acts all around.

Silver Crusade

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Sundakan wrote:

This is ignoring that depression, or even "just" great emotional duress is not generally something you choose to be afflicted with either.

*nods*

I didn't know about the suicide thing before this thread, since it wasn't mentioned in ISG. Other deity sections in there did talk about suicide though, so it seems likely that, just like the sexism, condemning his own followers to hell for taking their own life was nixed.


Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
Has anyone said they hate Nethys yet?

Yup! Mostly because of -most of- his followers. Arcane casters / drama queens / hurt, dark past etc. Though as a god he's kinda ok. Should have a special god for teen angst.


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Alright, so how about we talk about others ways to give good-aligned gods that aren't flaws that make them more interesting.

Torag - This one's already kind of part of his character but making Torag's xenophobia a byproduct of pragmatism and cynicism that's slowly grown over the aeons would be an interesting flaw to me. Sarenrae can preach and hope all she wants but the fact is on Golarion for every D'zzt or Ragathiel there's a hundred thousand Always Chaotic Evil monsters who want to kill or dominate everyone. Torag prioritizes protecting the innocent and has come to believe that the best way to do that is by killing them all when they attack.

Iomedae - Besides her appearance in Wrath of the Righteous, which I've personally chosen to consider non-canon, Iomedae's flaw is that she's a women whose entire life was shaped by endless war and conflict. She never had the time to experience the simple confronts that Cayden Cailean enjoys, have a family like Torag or create art like Shelyn. Everything in her life was focused on fighting evil and protecting others and as a consequence of that lifestyle she's kind of emotionally stunted. She's a solider first and last and comes across as matter-of-fact, stern and emotionless. Think Stannis Baratheon from ASOIAF.

Sarenrae - Her flaw is that she's really, really forgiving to the point that she hasn't taken the Cult of the Dawnflower's spells away because she doesn't want to change their ways through negative reinforcement but instead by self-reflection and empathy. She's willing to wait a really, really long time for that to happen. Also, she gets played like a sucker by Asmodeus, Urgoathoa and Norbergor because she's far to willing to see the best in everyone and wants to see good even there's none there.

Shelyn - She's kind of like Sarenrae in that her flaw is that she's way to nice. Beside letting Zon-Kuthon go when she probably had to chance to destroy him and prevent all the horror he would unleash upon the multiverse, she really wants to think that everyone has the ability to love and is willing to risk herself and others to redeem people. No matter how many die people in the attempt.

Cayden Cailean - Yeah, I don't think him enjoying alcohol is a flaw that he should be ashamed of. In fact, given his since he's become a god and gained a CON score probably in the hundreds alcohol influencing his judgment is even less of an issue. No his flaw should be him just being naturally rash and foolhardy. He believes that you should fight for what you believe in and this drives him to do frankly stupid things that could get him and others hurt. Asmodeus' somehow claimed a bunch of innocent souls you say, well f~#~ that noise I'm going to beat up all his infernal dukes and rescue those poor souls myself! Basically, he's a shonen hero. Cayden D. Cailean. Believe it!

Desna - Basically just like Cayden with the rashness just add that she's kind of flirty and scatterbrained at times. Personally, I think of her as a genderswapped Peter Pan who decided to steal Tinkerbell's wings.

Apsu - His flaw is that he's kind of racist towards humans.

Kurgess - Maybe's he's uninterested in academic pursuits that can't be related to athletics or sports. Think Jock with a Heart of Gold.

Milani - Her flaw should probably be that's far to willing to use violence to bring down the evil empire.

'


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Alni wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
Has anyone said they hate Nethys yet?
Yup! Mostly because of -most of- his followers. Arcane casters / drama queens / hurt, dark past etc. Though as a god he's kinda ok. Should have a special god for teen angst.

That would be Dahak aka the God of F&!% you Dad. Seriously if Kylo Ren was an Antipaladin he'd worship Dahak.


Quote:
Apsu - His flaw is that he's kind of racist towards humans.

Meh. They've got it comin'

Dark Archive

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Rovagug. I never really 'got' the Chaotic Evil mindset anyway, and he's pretty much the definition of it. (Lamashtu at least seems to have some goals, other than 'flip out and wreck everything.')

Similarly, I'm not a huge fan of Gorum, who can be a little too 'grar!' for my tastes (although he doesn't bug me as much as Rovagug, or, more specifically, Rovagug's nutjob worshippers). Calistria, while being CN, at least seems to be having a good time.

Most of the others I'm okay with, although Pharasma being praised for being a non-evil death diety who hates undead, like, uh, Kelemvore, and Nemorga, and Urogolan, and that dwarf god whose name I forget, and pretty much all of them, puzzles me. Isn't that the default, except for Nerull, way back in Greyhawk, in the *seventies?* I've had forty-some years of non-evil death gods who hate undead. It's not exactly shocking in it's newness. I think I'd like her more if there was more focus on A) her association with rivers/water, B) her association with birth/midwifery/healing, and C) her Osirioni clergy/church (for instance, is there an Osirioni tradition of depicting her with a whippoorwill head, in the tradition of the other older Osirioni gods?).

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16

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Tarik Blackhands wrote:
I should have specified. The murderhobo smite em all thing is very much a player perspective. Unlike the other deities I mentioned, my beef with Ragathiel is on a more meta level. Due to things like his portfolio and obedience you see a LOT of the trigger happy paladin type nonsense I described from players and as a guy who loves playing knights in shining armor, I balk at him basically setting paladin stereotypes back 20 years.

See that's very much a murderhobo making Ragathiel an excuse for being a murderhobo. My paladin of Ragathiel is an absolute bad-ass, but also a total sweetheart off the battlefield. I patterned them after some of my friends in Special Forces, nicest person you'll ever meet. Threaten someone they love, do something clearly reprehensible, they'll kill you without blinking.

My Inquisitor of Ragathiel is a bit darker but still on the level. Stands beside a paladin who's the ultimate redeemer, always gives people second, chances, has managed to redeem some truly evil people. My Inquisitor not only respects that, but loves it about the paladin. But she knows it won't always work. She knows her companion will always hold out hope that the enemy can be redeemed. So someone has to take the role of dropping the hammer when the hand that is extended is bitten.

When you've blown your last chance, proven time and time again that your claims of redemption were just another lie to save your own ass, or tyou've committed the utterly unforgivable, it's her shadow that falls over you, and in the name of Ragathiel, she rubs one more dark spot out of the tapestry.

Ragathiel is essentially the Black Ops of the gods. He is good, the work he does is good, but it isn't pretty, and it's never fun.


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Set wrote:
Isn't that the default, except for Nerull, way back in Greyhawk, in the *seventies?*

Dunno what your D&D exposure has been, but, uh...

The Forgotten Realms:
Myrkul (NE)
Cyric (briefly, from Myrkul's death until 1993 or so) (CE)
Jergal (LE, shaded to LN by the time Kelemvor traipsed along)

Dragonlance:
Chemosh (NE)

Birthright:
The Cold Rider (NE)

Ravenloft:
The Eternal Order (NE) (Yeah, yeah, false deities, everything in Ravenloft is shaded nasty-still counts)

D&D Interpretations of Real-World Mythology:
Arawn (NE)
Kali (CE, and bet your butt THAT rubbed some folks the wrong way)
Hel (NE)

Also note that I'd never heard of Nemorga until today, and Urogolan is similarly niche, and Kelemvor's ascension was presented as kind of a big change when it happened. No, Pharasma's not unique, but to someone who came up through the official D&D settings, she's definitely relatively novel.


Asmodeus

Norberger mostly since he is basically 2 gods in one. He reminds me of both Bhaal and Mask from FR.

Erastil should have been a female since his aspect puts me in mind of Demeter.

Shelyn is basically Sune.

Iomadae is on the fence since I can see some of Tyr from FR in her and I hated him with a passion.

EtG


Another on is Nethys. I don't know what it is about him but the idea of him rubs me the wrong way. But saying that I have had that against most of the gods of magic that have appeared. It could be that they always seemed to be in every module or AP was irritating. The only one that I even remotely liked was a write involving the original CN- Mystryl.


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In case anyone asks I despise Asmodeus since he remints me so much of a Tory politician that it puts me off.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Set wrote:

Rovagug. I never really 'got' the Chaotic Evil mindset anyway, and he's pretty much the definition of it. (Lamashtu at least seems to have some goals, other than 'flip out and wreck everything.')

Rovagug to me makes perfect sense, since he is an Uber-Qlippoth final solution to the whole demon problem. Let's just unlease a giant monstrous god on the material plane to eat everything, so we don't have to worry about any more pesty mortals feeding demon growth on the planes. Probably the most straight forward and understandable god there is in the Golarion pantheon

Liberty's Edge

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Set wrote:


Similarly, I'm not a huge fan of Gorum, who can be a little too 'grar!' for my tastes (although he doesn't bug me as much as Rovagug, or, more specifically, Rovagug's nutjob worshippers). Calistria, while being CN, at least seems to be having a good time.

Gorrum does not have a good time. Gorum is having the best time. He crushes his enemies and sees them driven before him . There is nothing better in life


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Rysky wrote:
And sexist does not equal Good.

But does it preclude it alltogether?

Considering some of the iffy things some of the other gods do (ragathiel obviously likes killing, Torag has a brutally practical approach to Orc tribes) it would be kind of weird that upholding traditional gender roles would be too evil to get over, especially when he's doing it with good intentions.

We're talking about the god of small communities when said small communities have to deal with everything rampaging dragons, owl bears, bullettes, oddly predatory wolves that will attack bands of well armed adventurers, roaving orc bands, kappies that will make you drown yourself for S&G, and swarms of insects that can strip a peasant to bare bones in 6 seconds.

Sexual dimorphism may be purely cosmetic in world, but reproduction is not*. Men are still the expendable gender. Sending them out to farm, hunt, and get meat makes sense in a dangerous world where losing 10 people a year could very well doom your entire community. Losing a husband hurts, but losing a wife will kill any child they're carrying and pose a severe risk for any nursing children they're leaving behind.

Men are more likely to try to take those risks.

Taking that trend and trying to apply it to more individuals than it really applies to is the problem with Law, not Evil. It's taking what's best for the community as a whole no matter if that sucks for the individuals within it: the woman who wants to hunt and the man who'd rather be a baker and well alive, too bad suck it up your tribe/town/villiage/country needs you, and to a lawful being that community comes above individual wants and desires.

The mechanism of enforcement matters here too. As far as i know erastil just shakes his finger at you, or at worst, doesn't help you, if you're not going along with the rest of the community.

*Statement not valid at the church of lamasthu. If swelling persists more than 8 months, please contact your midwife

Slightly Off-Topic Question: Assuming a world where sexual dimorphism is not a thing, but the roles the genders play in reproduction do remain distinct, would the relative "expendibility" of the genders in such a community remain the same if the ratio of male to female changed? Say, 2:1 to 3:1 in favor of the female gender. If we have half of a given community relagated to creating and caring for the new members of the community, and the other half still has plenty of women as well (and women who are just as physically capable of performing the so-called masculine roles as the men are), would Erastil's model still hold?

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