Least Favorite Gods


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Kender Butterknife wrote:
is stupid

ur stupid lol

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Delightful wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
I love Zon-Kuthon because I am enthralled by the mystery of what happened to him but I can see what some people might find gross about him.
Me too, but I do wish they'd just admit that the Dominion of the Black was the ones behind his fall. It's so obvious, right.

They've explicitly said the Dominion are not the ones behind it.


Thought I'd heard something about that but I couldn't find the source.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
Thought I'd heard something about that but I couldn't find the source.

James Jacobs has answered the "Are the Dominion responsible for Zon-Kuthon" question in his thread a couple of times :3


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Corrupts how, exactly? This is something people bandy about but it's not written anywhere.

Well, yeah. If you explain every nitty-gritty detail of magic, it becomes a science. It corrupts them via the same process that it creates undead: Impossible to explain with our science, but the end result is irrefutable. The undead are bitter and evil, and their souls are almost impossible to resurrect once thus corrupted.

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
Again I really think it's more to do with urgthoa creating them when she escaped, and Pharasma holds a grudge over that. She wouldn't care about it making people evil she doesn't care about good and evil. I also don't think soles leaving the cycle bothers her she feeds them to groetus and sometimes people become gods who are basically immortal and she doesn't have a problem with them either.
It's not about good and evil, it's about vandalism. The souls are her charge. Necromancy takes those souls, bangs them up real bad, then eventually sends them back. Urgathoa is like that roommate who keeps stealing your DVDs and returning them scratched up.

It's more like mowing over a flowerbed than breaking a CD. Sure it's all bad on the spot, but it'll come back. The only troubles with ressurection are during undeath. Once destroyed, the damage is undone. Ressurecting a good person that was turnes into a ghoul or a wight or a shadow does not make them return as evil.

As for it being Urgotha... tgat sounds incresibly petty and spiteful, given the rest of her persona.


Rysky wrote:
Delightful wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
I love Zon-Kuthon because I am enthralled by the mystery of what happened to him but I can see what some people might find gross about him.
Me too, but I do wish they'd just admit that the Dominion of the Black was the ones behind his fall. It's so obvious, right.
They've explicitly said the Dominion are not the ones behind it.

Zon dammit!

Alright, alright new theory. It was the Dark Tapestry that did it! It's basically still the Dominion of the Black but just more inclusive towards everything else bad/evil in space. It can't be possibly be wrong this time.

Moving on. Does anyone have suggestions as to how their least fav god/goddess can be less terrible in your eyes?

For me, I wish Torag had more going on than typical dwarf themes. Perhaps putting more importance of his role of a god of creation and all the facets that could encompass behind forging weapons and strongholds. Hell, him being a male fertility god would have been interesting especially given he's the only of the main 20 that has kids.


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Delightful wrote:

Moving on. Does anyone have suggestions as to how their least fav god/goddess can be less terrible in your eyes?

For me, I wish Torag had more going on than typical dwarf themes. Perhaps putting more importance of his role of a god of creation and all the facets that could encompass behind forging weapons and strongholds. Hell, him being a male fertility god would have been interesting especially given he's the only of the main 20 that has kids.

Someone tell Ragathiel to tone his fiery ass down; the way he's going about things, with all of that lawful fervent behavior going on, he's probably going to drive people away from the side of good. And for goodness's sake, ease the obedience! Killing one bad guy a day practically screams "Designated Hero"! Same goes for Videlis.

I don't hate Cayden Caliean but I can see why people would dislike him due to his connection to alcoholism. He is against letting the drink getting the best of you, but I wouldn't mind seeing that part altered or even removed for something more acceptable, both for his character and the player base. Heck, give him a sect of straight edges or have him set up Golarion's version of Alcoholics Anonymous. Maybe some "designated adventurers"; after all, no good party has their face smashed.

Findeladlara... flip your alignment. That, or live up to your CG standards and stop being a conservative, racist git.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:

I wonder if Groetus has been slightly misunderstood, and he isn't the one who brings about the End Times, but is needed to do some dirty work when the End Times occur, and Pharasma has to keep feeding him so he doesn't crash into the Boneyard before the End Times occur?

His Inner Sea Faiths write up has him as the guy whose job it is to wrap up the multiverse once it gets to its end. He can see some of the details of that end and will sometimes send agents to do seemingly random things to possibly speed up those omens of the end, but he's also infinitely patient and able to wait it out.

He's like the janitor waiting to clean up after the party. It's not his fault the party has to eventually end, but if it goes on for too many billions of years he might flip the breakers to shut everything down and he's standing in the corner staring at you and making you feel guilty for still having a good time and not accepting its time to go home yet.


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Reduxist wrote:
Delightful wrote:

Moving on. Does anyone have suggestions as to how their least fav god/goddess can be less terrible in your eyes?

For me, I wish Torag had more going on than typical dwarf themes. Perhaps putting more importance of his role of a god of creation and all the facets that could encompass behind forging weapons and strongholds. Hell, him being a male fertility god would have been interesting especially given he's the only of the main 20 that has kids.

I don't hate Cayden Caliean but I can see why people would dislike him due to his connection to alcoholism. He is against letting the drink getting the best of you, but I wouldn't mind seeing that part altered or even removed for something more acceptable, both for his character and the player base. Heck, give him a sect of straight edges or have him set up Golarion's version of Alcoholics Anonymous. Maybe some "designated adventurers"; after all, no good party has their face smashed.

Actually one of his clerics chief duties is acting as psudeo-Alcoholics Anonymous for people who go overboard.


Delightful wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Delightful wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
I love Zon-Kuthon because I am enthralled by the mystery of what happened to him but I can see what some people might find gross about him.
Me too, but I do wish they'd just admit that the Dominion of the Black was the ones behind his fall. It's so obvious, right.
They've explicitly said the Dominion are not the ones behind it.

Zon dammit!

Alright, alright new theory. It was the Dark Tapestry that did it! It's basically still the Dominion of the Black but just more inclusive towards everything else bad/evil in space. It can't be possibly be wrong this time.

Moving on. Does anyone have suggestions as to how their least fav god/goddess can be less terrible in your eyes?

For me, I wish Torag had more going on than typical dwarf themes. Perhaps putting more importance of his role of a god of creation and all the facets that could encompass behind forging weapons and strongholds. Hell, him being a male fertility god would have been interesting especially given he's the only of the main 20 that has kids.

James has told me already that it isn't the great old ones or the outer gods so I'm not sure what's left in the dark tapestry for it to be.

I'd like Irori to get of his high horse accept the gods that ascended through the star stone


Goblin_Priest wrote:


It's more like mowing over a flowerbed than breaking a CD. Sure it's all bad on the spot, but it'll come back. The only troubles with ressurection are during undeath. Once destroyed, the damage is undone. Ressurecting a good person that was turnes into a ghoul or a wight or a shadow does not make them return as evil.

As for it being Urgotha... tgat sounds incresibly petty and spiteful, given the rest of her persona.

I'm sorry I can't quite follow your thought in the first paragraph.

I don't see it as petty a see it as an area of shame for her, Urgothoa got away from her and f+~%ed s!&~ up and the undead are a permenant reminder of the one time someone got away from her.


That's basically the definition of petty. Adding a line to your worship doctrine because somebody wounded your pride is as petty as it can be.

It's like if the CEO of a company banned green ties from work because their boyfriend dumped them and his favorite tie was green.

Yeah, maybe the reminder brings them pain. Still petty as s$#$.


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Not exactly the main theme of the thread but it's more or less related.
I've been playing in Dragonlance for a lot of time and I cannot but compare DL gods to Golarion.
I don't care too much about not having a lot of gods in Dragonlance, but aside from Paladine and Takhisis (who are both gone) most gods seem to lack a lot of depht and to be underdeveloped. For a world where gods bear such relevance it kinda bothers me.
After playing campaigns involving Zeboim and Chemosh I'm glad on how me, my players and our other GM have fleshed out these two gods, and Habbakuk is also in the right way, but I find most other gods kinda stereotypical and lacking.
I'm playing an elven cleric of Branchala and I'm still trying to give my religion and my god the wow factor it lacks.
Despite Golarion gods might not be perfect I really like how fleshed out and interesting they mostly are.


Except that the guy that wore green ties is also a narcissistic bioterrorist that's trying to jumpstart a zombie apocalypse. I think Pharasma has every reason to hate Urgathoa and the undead.

For me, "Petty" would be

...:
Iomedae's behavior during Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth. We get it, you are a god, you do not have to blow our ears out to prove it!


Asmodeus, because everyone who wants to worship an evil God but be acceptable in polite society worships him. He's the God of Hell, extremely lawful, capable of giving his worshipers a decent afterlife as a fiend, but still screws his worshipers over after death like every other evil deity (except maybe Norgorber).

Calistria, because why worship a fickle hedonistic backstabber? She honestly strikes me as a watered down, non-hermaphroditic, less interesting version of Warhammer's Slaanesh.

Iomedae, because I just plain hate paladins and crusaders. How am I supposed to have any fun with a paladin around? All they'll do is lecture me for eating my fallen enemies and try to "redeem me" from my worship of Not Iomedae.


Sundakan wrote:

That's basically the definition of petty. Adding a line to your worship doctrine because somebody wounded your pride is as petty as it can be.

It's like if the CEO of a company banned green ties from work because their boyfriend dumped them and his favorite tie was green.

Yeah, maybe the reminder brings them pain. Still petty as s+~+.

Shame=/=wounded pride

Also terrible comparison is terrible, it's more like the tax mans boyfriend left him and invented tax evasion.


Kileanna wrote:

Not exactly the main theme of the thread but it's more or less related.

I've been playing in Dragonlance for a lot of time and I cannot but compare DL gods to Golarion.
I don't care too much about not having a lot of gods in Dragonlance, but aside from Paladine and Takhisis (who are both gone) most gods seem to lack a lot of depht and to be underdeveloped. For a world where gods bear such relevance it kinda bothers me.
After playing campaigns involving Zeboim and Chemosh I'm glad on how me, my players and our other GM have fleshed out these two gods, and Habbakuk is also in the right way, but I find most other gods kinda stereotypical and lacking.
I'm playing an elven cleric of Branchala and I'm still trying to give my religion and my god the wow factor it lacks.
Despite Golarion gods might not be perfect I really like how fleshed out and interesting they mostly are.

I'm not familiar with the system but have you considered porting over a pathfinder god you like?

MidsouthGuy wrote:


Calistria, because why worship a fickle hedonistic backstabber? She honestly strikes me as a watered down, non-hermaphroditic, less interesting version of Warhammer's Slaanesh.

I mean if by watered down you mean none genocidal then yeah sort of. Slan is also more hedonistic like Urgothoa.


Rysky wrote:
Delightful wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
I love Zon-Kuthon because I am enthralled by the mystery of what happened to him but I can see what some people might find gross about him.
Me too, but I do wish they'd just admit that the Dominion of the Black was the ones behind his fall. It's so obvious, right.
They've explicitly said the Dominion are not the ones behind it.

That's just what the Dominion wants you to think.

James Jacobs confirmed Domininati.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Delightful wrote:
Moving on. Does anyone have suggestions as to how their least fav god/goddess can be less terrible in your eyes?

Cayden Cailean: Either make him a benevolently-intentioned Chaotic Neutral or play up his blackout event as something he regrets the criminal irresponsibility of and move his church out of bars and into the community more. They can still be brewers- they wouldn't have a god without booze, after all- but be less about the party, more about putting your feet up with a single beer at the end of the day. And maybe make a point that Cayden himself DOESN'T drink anymore- maybe add a bit where they pour one onto the ground to represent his own turning away from it as a cautionary thing BEFORE any big party kicks off. That note of regret and self-control would also give him something that other Chaotic Good deities do NOT do better and with more style.

Norgorber: Strip-mine him for the stuff that's fun (the Anaphexia, the Skinsaw Cult) and send him back to the factory. Or make him Lawful Evil and give him a parasitic relationship with the Church of Abadar where his entire faith exists secretly inside of Abadar's church hierarchy.Just to be jerks.I know that's meant to be Ghlaunder's schtick, but the god of secrets having ANY sort of public church oropen worship always struck me as insane. And why Abadar? Because his cities allow the secrets, wealth, and victim pool that Norgberites so enjoy to be collected in one place. And like all good parasites,I think Norgorber's faithful would do all in their power to insure that Abadar's church stayed healthy.

Torag: Pretty much beyond redemption as he is. I'd junk him entirely, and give the Dwarves a matriarchal figure to lead their pantheon- and make her a fire deity while I was at it. Not a goddess of the forge, but a goddess of the fires that make such creation possible. Less order and toil, more creative passion.

Gorum: Either make him evil (which is kinda boring) or take away his Chaotic Alignment and make him a world-weary deity amused by civilization's constant blather about seeking peace when they all resort to war so readily. He'd still love a good fight, but would be less about promoting conflict and more about getting ready for it.

Thamirr Gixx: Junk him. Give Halflings a neutral evil god of retribution-play up their genuine grievances, then use it to lever halflings into evil actions.


I guess my least favorite goddess is Milani, since she feels kind of redundant with Cayden Cailen. Do we really need 2 chaotic good gods of freedom?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I think my biggest issue is less the individual gods and more of how they are structured. I like or at least am okay with the gods as individually presented.

As someone who is fond of mythology, I get bothered by the lack of cohesion in the core 20 Golarion pantheon, with most gods sort of just out there without much backstory relating them to others in an organic way. Yes there are exceptions here and there: Sarenrae and Asmodeus, Zon Kuthon and Shelyn, Torag's dwarf family. But they overall lack the connectiveness you seen in the Greek or Norse Pantheons, where most of the gods were related in some manner and had quarrels and history that were not simply driven by alignment differences

Outside of this I do have similar concerns about Torag being boring, but I think that is further enhanced by Pathfinder dwarves themselves being rather boring. They are effectively, with the exception of a very few group like the Pahmet, etc...the most cliches of the races.

Shadow Lodge

If I had to pick one, it would have to be Shelyn, hands down. She is latterly the goddess of Mary Sue. Or rather, she would be if the most interesting thing about her was her brother.

She doesn't seem like she should be either Lawful or have anything at all to do with Paladins.

Her Domains and powers seem extremely inappropriate for any sort of balance concerns, to the point if looks like the tried to shove in things that really just don't even fit.

Apparently everyone loves her, just because. Her only "flaw" was she wasn't good enough to save her brother. But that's ok, because "beauty".

After Shelyn, it is a very difficult choice between Torag and Ragathiel. Now, don't get me wrong, I actually really like both, but let's face it, Paizo has dropped the ball, and then stomped the ball into underneath the dirt with these two. For Torag, they really just don't do anything with him, and I get it, some Devs hate admittedly hate dwarves, but there is just so much potential there. Ragathiel is a totally different story, where it's like 10 different authors have all had 10 very different views and present extremely conflicting options. That, or they legitimately wrote things thinking of someone else entirely. Hopefully, this is something that can be fixed. Erastil is fairly close here too, simply because I don't think Paizo knows how to use him well, despite him being so filled with amazing hooks and plots.

For number three, I'm not sure. CC is up there, largely for many of the reasons that have been mentioned up to the first three pages I've read so far. A bit boring. A very questionable moral/ethical concept. Pharasma is very boring, and despite being told over and over (and over and over) how important/powerful/whatever she is, she is basically irrelevant. All in all, I think Kelemvor was the only interesting "Neutral Deity of Death" that I've found interesting, and I think that Paizo banked far too much on thinking that Pharasma was a first on that account.


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DM Beckett wrote:


She doesn't seem like she should be either Lawful or have anything at all to do with Paladins.

Well, that is because she isn't lawful, and as for paladins, most every god and goddess who is LN/LG/NG has options for specific paladin codes, even if they are not particularly militant, so Shelyn is nothing special there.


Delightful wrote:
Moving on. Does anyone have suggestions as to how their least fav god/goddess can be less terrible in your eyes?

Asmodeus: Either actually make him lawful or shift his alignment to the more appropriate neutral evil.

Irori: Merge with Nethys to create a more general god of knowledge. If we are going to keep him, consider shifting him toward NN or CN and playing up his status as sort of an enlightened renegade.

Groetus: First and foremost the writers need to figure out what he's supposed to be, because really my impression with his various inconsistencies is that no one's actually decided what he's supposed to be like.

Pharasma: I sincerely believe that she adds absolutely nothing to the setting and could be removed from Golarion material without impacting anything in any meaningful way.

But if you have to keep her, flesh her out. Give her motivations. Give her something to do. Or at least give people a reason why she doesn't care about even the things she does care about. She's just so dull. And really kind of paradoxical: she's explicitly and unequivocably the most powerful being in the entire setting and yet is also quite arguably the least important person in Golarion's entire lore.

Iomedae: If she's really supposed to be the Inheritor and the paladin's paladin of gods, actually make her aspire or live up to that ideal. As is she just doesn't seem like something for a paladin to aspire to and if I want to grapple with my falliability I'd rather just pick a god that does that better (like Rag).

Sarenrae: I feel like there are two ways to go with this one. Either retcon out all of her unsavory elements and make her a more proper good god. Or actually incorporate them more heavily into her lore as something she's struggling with. As is the Cult fits in this odd middle ground where she's totally cross with them and might chastise them later, but also doesn't really factor into any of her lore. No one else seems to even really notice them except Milani and even Milani's disgust for it is basically written to be inconsequential. Speaking of:

Milani: Actually give her stuff to do. Stuff to be. As is she's basically written not to matter, with half of her lore being "She's kind of like Iomedae but different and less important" and the other half being "She doesn't like Sarenrae but she's too unimportant to do anything about it either". I mean, I realize she's supposed to be one of the lower deities on the totem pole, but from the get go it feels like her lore was written expressly to make her not matter.


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Pharasma: Make her more active, or remover her entirely as an anthropomorphic force. If she was just some nebulous spirit that worked on the gears of the universe, kept everything churning on in the natural order that would be soemwhat interesting. Remove the thing about her not liking undead and make that something her clergy made up because they thought Pharasma would agree. She (or it now), of course, has no opinion one way or another.

Iomedae: Either keep her flaws and acknowledge them as flaws (make her the godly embodiment of everything wrong with Miko Muiyazaki and make it perfectly explicit that she's a cosmic object lesson on when a Paladin goes too far) or make her more human. She started that way, and all of the other gods (except maybe Norgorber) who became gods as mortals seem to retain their own personalities and foibles. Unless Iomedae was an exceptionally boring human, she does not.


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Ventnor wrote:
I guess my least favorite goddess is Milani, since she feels kind of redundant with Cayden Cailen. Do we really need 2 chaotic good gods of freedom?

You gotta be free to choose your favorite CG god of freedom.

Shadow Lodge

Malefactor wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:


She doesn't seem like she should be either Lawful or have anything at all to do with Paladins.

Well, that is because she isn't lawful, and as for paladins, most every god and goddess who is LN/LG/NG has options for specific paladin codes, even if they are not particularly militant, so Shelyn is nothing special there.

What I mean is, at least in my opinion, her general sphere of influence seems to scream Chaotic, and I dont really see her as a person that would sponsor militant classes like Paladins.


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DM Beckett wrote:
What I mean is, at least in my opinion, her general sphere of influence seems to scream Chaotic

... Why?


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Canonically, Shelyn used to be Chaotic, and then merged after the horrible experience of Doubral (or something that seemed to be Doubral) coming back as Zon-Kuthon. Wait, that gives me an idea . . .

Delightful wrote:
{. . .} Moving on. Does anyone have suggestions as to how their least fav god/goddess can be less terrible in your eyes?

I posted my ideas way above, but I got an additional idea:

Vildeis: Claw your own eyes out so that you can't see Evil, rather than dealing with it? This is worse than sticking your head in the sand . . . . Except what if it wasn't just that Vildeis saw Evil, but the same Evil that turned Doubral into Zon-Kuthon nearly took over Vildeis, and clawing out her own eyes was the only way she could interrupt its entry?

Liberty's Edge

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Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:


Agreed. I think Gorum should be more evil for spurring conflict through refusing non-violent resolutions and accepting any attempted defense as an excuse for a fight (a cleric of Gorum would be obligated to slaughter a child defending himself in a blind panic using nothing but rusty kitchen knife)

HORSEPUKE! That kid has guts. Knock him on the head and recruit him if he survives. He'll make a fine warrior some day!

-Grr, Warpriest of gorum and adorable bundle of fluffy death.


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DM Beckett wrote:
What I mean is, at least in my opinion, her general sphere of influence seems to scream Chaotic, and I dont really see her as a person that would sponsor militant classes like Paladins.

On the topic of Shelyn... I am curious as to your reasoning that a goddess of beauty and (all, not just romantic) love suggests a chaotic alignment.

Good? Absolutely. Love requires attaching, caring and putting the wellbeing of others before yourself; a selflessness that is the hallmark of a good alignment.

Chaotic? Chaotic alignments are, at their core, about individualism and being self-determinate. Love... isn't about individualism; it's about the people you love and who love you. Love creates obligations, but is also subjective and defined by those involved. Love is neutral, in my opinion at least.

Raynulf's ramble on alignment:

A short version I give to my players on Law vs Chaos is this:

  • A lawful person values the morals and standards of society over the individual circumstances or opinion.
  • A chaotic person values the individual's right to determine their own behaviour over preconceived expectations of society.
  • A neutral person wants to get by within society, but feels that the broadly applicable standards and expectations of society should be moderated by the individual circumstance.

This is then moderated by Good vs Evil.

  • A lawful good person honestly believes that having clear, defined and objective rules, standards and expectations of behaviour is for the betterment of everyone. Having such standards made known reassures them that there is a defined "right" way to do things which they can adhere to, and that others can do. A lawful good person wouldn't jaywalk even if there were no cars for miles, simply out of the belief that laws make life better and should be obeyed and not undermined.

  • A neutral good person believes in doing what is best for others, and does not see having codified expectations or complete self-determinacy as being ideal. A neutral good person believes in looking for the best outcome for all involved, but specifically at those involved, rather than abstract concepts or simply an individual. A neutral good person might jaywalk, but only if there was a compelling reason to do so, such as having someone waiting for them and wanting to hurry to avoid inconveniencing another.

  • A chaotic good person believes in letting people think for themselves, and that the greatest virtue is someone choosing to undertake a selfless or noble act, and that codified laws and obligations stifle the human spirit and capacity for goodness. A chaotic good person values freedom and the ability of individuals to choose how to live their own lives, and feels too many laws or restrictions hinder the ability for people to truly live. A chaotic good person will jaywalk when it does not present significant negative consequences for doing so (e.g. being run over, hurting someone else, being fined by a nearby cop etc).

Ramble aside, back on topic <_<

I get that "the arts" has the stereotype of whimsical waifs lounging around and "waiting for their muse"... but being married to a professional artist I can with absolute confidence say that is complete hogwash. Visual and performing arts take discipline, training, practice and most of all persistence. They are not innately "chaotic", and it is only quite recently that the whole "paint what and how you want to!" fad has come in (as in, the last couple of decades), but even that is mostly a sales pitch (a different form of art) and doesn't bear that much semblance to reality.

Indeed. A successful "Artist" almost never creates "what they want/feel", but instead creates what society wants and will pay for. Hint: Painter in Australia? Old house in the outback with chooks. You'll do about ten of those for every piece or two you'll create for yourself and your sanity.

I wouldn't call that chaotic.

Shadow Lodge

DM Beckett wrote:


What I mean is, at least in my opinion, her general sphere of influence seems to scream Chaotic, and I dont really see her as a person that would sponsor militant classes like Paladins.

I think love, ultimately, in it's purest form is neutral good, as is creating beauty. Romantic love can cause you to do crazy, wonderful, ultimately chaotic things. It can also lead to paternal love, which causes you not to encourage those crazy, wonderful things cause stability and convention is, to some extent, good for the kids you love.

Beauty is also balanced. You need that spark of crazy inspiration, but also the discipline to master your craft.

Sheyln being the living embodiment of all those things, that knifes edge balance that allows us to create, to enjoy the beautiful structure to the transient moment, and to love unselfishly enough to defy convention or do the opposite because that's what love requires of us at the moment I think, cannot be anything other than NG.

May Sheyln bless you.


Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
Kileanna wrote:

Not exactly the main theme of the thread but it's more or less related.

I've been playing in Dragonlance for a lot of time and I cannot but compare DL gods to Golarion.
I don't care too much about not having a lot of gods in Dragonlance, but aside from Paladine and Takhisis (who are both gone) most gods seem to lack a lot of depht and to be underdeveloped. For a world where gods bear such relevance it kinda bothers me.
After playing campaigns involving Zeboim and Chemosh I'm glad on how me, my players and our other GM have fleshed out these two gods, and Habbakuk is also in the right way, but I find most other gods kinda stereotypical and lacking.
I'm playing an elven cleric of Branchala and I'm still trying to give my religion and my god the wow factor it lacks.
Despite Golarion gods might not be perfect I really like how fleshed out and interesting they mostly are.
I'm not familiar with the system but have you considered porting over a pathfinder god you like?

What we are doing is taking some roleplaying and concepts from the religions and gods from Golarion and trying to expand the DL concepts our way to make them less archetypical and more interesting.

Shadow Lodge

Raynulf wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
What I mean is, at least in my opinion, her general sphere of influence seems to scream Chaotic, and I dont really see her as a person that would sponsor militant classes like Paladins.
On the topic of Shelyn... I am curious as to your reasoning that a goddess of beauty and (all, not just romantic) love suggests a chaotic alignment.

Her portfolio and followers consists of: Beauty, art, love, music, artists, poets, and lovers. Shelyn is the goddess of art, beauty, love, and music. If you take out "love", which is just one aspect of her, she is the goddess of beauty, art, music, artists, poets, and lovers.

She reminds me a lot of the classic D&D Elves, whose typical Alignment tendencies, and whose society was the iconic example of what a Chaotic Good/Chaotic Neutral people would be like, (with some nature/fey themes thrown in).

And while I agree that artists are not Chaotic, they type of artistry it talks about with her, in particular how she favors true creations and a good effort over something done well with no passion, but also that she is so concerned with "beauty", even if they try to push this "inner " and "outer" beauty concept really seems to me very Chaotic Good or Chaotic Neutral.

On the other side of that, I think it would have been a lot more appropriate and interesting to have LE Zee-Kay dramatically opposed to a CG Shay.

Kerney wrote:
I think love, ultimately, in it's purest form is neutral good, as is creating beauty. Romantic love can cause you to do crazy, wonderful, ultimately chaotic things. It can also lead to paternal love, which causes you not to encourage those crazy, wonderful things cause stability and convention is, to some extent, good for the kids you love.

To be honest, I don't see how beauty is at all Good (aligned), any more than death for instance, or just about any other general concept. However, the implication that beauty = good I guess means that ugly = evil, (despite the blunder in her write up), beauty and ugliness are not really even defined. How about finding beauty in an artistic slaughter. And I mean that in all seriousness. A Half-Orc tribe slaughtering enemies for survival and taking a moment to admire, and literally find beauty in their work, how well they took advantage of this or that tactic, etc. . . Yes, obviously Shelyn wouldn't approve as a <Good> deity, and yet it can so very easily align with nearly her entire portfolio, beauty, love, and possibly even art and music for the victory celebration, where they sing, dance, party and are thankful that they, their tribe, and their families and friends, (even though they are Evil as hell) survived and continue to exist.

So, in reality, I can just as easily see Love, Art, Beauty, Music, Lovers, etc. . . being more appropriate as a Neutral Aligned force, as both Good and Evil peoples, societies, cultures, and faiths will have some interest or stake in these concepts.


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So... it's not that you see her portfolio as "chaotic," despite your saying exactly that, it's that you don't see her areas of concern as "good"?


UnArcaneElection wrote:

Canonically, Shelyn used to be Chaotic, and then merged after the horrible experience of Doubral (or something that seemed to be Doubral) coming back as Zon-Kuthon. Wait, that gives me an idea . . .

Delightful wrote:
{. . .} Moving on. Does anyone have suggestions as to how their least fav god/goddess can be less terrible in your eyes?

I posted my ideas way above, but I got an additional idea:

Vildeis: Claw your own eyes out so that you can't see Evil, rather than dealing with it? This is worse than sticking your head in the sand . . . . Except what if it wasn't just that Vildeis saw Evil, but the same Evil that turned Doubral into Zon-Kuthon nearly took over Vildeis, and clawing out her own eyes was the only way she could interrupt its entry?

Wait... I don't want to crap on your suggestion on how to improve Vildeis, but Chronicle of the Righteous says that while Vildeis did go a bit crazy and scratch out her eyes after seeing Evil for the first time, she didn't do that so she wouldn't have to deal with it anymore.

She's an utter zealot dedicated to the complete extermination of Evil everywhere with every scar on her body being earned by fighting Evil across the cosmos. Ragathiel probably looks at her and says, "Damn, Vildeis, don't you think your going a bit overboard".

Shadow Lodge

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Delightful wrote:
Moving on. Does anyone have suggestions as to how their least fav god/goddess can be less terrible in your eyes?

Somethings I'd like to see that I think would go a long way.

Erastil Return to the original concept of him being very traditional family orientated, <or sexist>. In fact, across the board, I think all the deities should have concepts, histories, or quirks that some people will find questionable but allow for different and interesting variations on different Alignments. Additionally, as a LG deity of hard work, community, and racial survival against a harsh world filled with monsters, one of the best things I think that could be done is to play up the strong contrasts by two other deities who have very different views on related topics. And who also just happened to be likewise Lawfully aligned. Abadar (LN god of cities, industry, and progressive) and Asmodeus (LE god of domination, contracts, and tyranny).

All three gods have a very strong view on what is best for society as a whole, and all three are basically mutually exclusive, and I think playing with this in a political sense could be very interesting for the setting as a whole, (if it can be done well and fairly between the three as far as representation).

For Torag, it's really not that hard. Use him for stuff. And Dwarves in general. Not exotic dwarves like Tien Dwarves, or Osirion dwarves, but just dwarves and Torag (and the pantheon to an extent) a lot more. Why is Torag and his faithful not a major component of say, the Worldwound and the Mendev Crusades, as a strong, but minority faction?

Ragathiel, while I love his concept, story, history, and flavor, has been given outright terrible mechanics almost across the board, some of which doesn't seem to fit him at all. I think the problem here is that different authors brought in a lot of personal pet peevs that conflict with hi flavor and themes, but somehow got printed, and then even reinforced. A few simple errata and retcons of those mechanics would fix the problem.

Shelyn, is hard to say. I think that some of the things that would fix her would also ruin her for many of the people that like her. It's more of an out-of-game/setting problem as fan reactions would be too strong. However, something that might be better and easier would be to remove the Domains/SubDomains that are just too good (especially when in combination). It's a similar issue with Desna, where one of the leading factors for not wanting to have "philosophy Clerics" is to avoid "cherry-picking" Domains and options, but they give basically the best options that would be cherry-picked to a few deities, which sort of defeats the point. Or, due to her backstory, don't have her grant Favored Weapon Proficiency for the Glave, despite it being her "favored weapon". Another thing that could be done is to have her reduced in a few concepts that step on the toes of other deities. Things like redemption and peace are already another deities main things, and Shelyn shouldn't be "better" at them. Lastly, simply drop most of the Mary Sue aspects of her flavor. Give her some flaws. Make some Good and Neutral gods not like her or have conflict with her, show how her faith and ideals have led to some very terrible outcomes, etc. . .

Desna, is also a bit hard to say. I don't have a huge problem with her as much as I find her flavor-wise a bit boring, but she offers basically hands-down the best mechanical options for her followers in most cases where a character is restricted to only one set of options, (Domains, Patron Deity Feats, etc. . .)

Pharasma,. . . have her die. Both in that I agree she really doesn't do anything for the setting in the sense of "show don't tell", but also because how awesome would it be if she, the most powerful, prophetic, and "essential" deity simply didn't exist any more, and never came back. Or, was somehow ousted and reduced to a Demi-goddess, (so still allowing for divine followers), but well, it turns out, everything still works perfectly fine for her souls conveyor belt.

Cayden Cailean,. . . hard to say. I can certainly see the appeal for him, but I can also see how strong of an issue this is for a lot of folks. I'd say drop the whole "drunk" concept and have him instead become deity of <good-natured> dares and friendly celebration. This would still allow for his drinking aspect, but not be nearly as strong an influence among his faithful, who would instead be more focused on relaxing in a good, welcoming seat at the tavern table rather than drinking, drinking, drinking.

Sarenrae, I actually sort of like the flaw of the Cult of the Dawnflower, and would like to see it played with more. Especially if this is done more with much more deities across the board.

Iomedae. One of the coolest things I think about her is oddly not her flaws from Wrath of the Righteous, or even the burners, but the idea that she actually failed the Test, but was sort of pushed through because Heaven needed a Good patron, and she is only barely holding on. I'd like this to be played up a bit more in setting.

Shadow Lodge

Cole Deschain wrote:
So... it's not that you see her portfolio as "chaotic," despite your saying exactly that, it's that you don't see her areas of concern as "good"?

No. I see her portfolio as being more Chaotic, than Neutral or Lawful. Or, in other words I'd see both her and her overall portfolio as being more against Lawful than I would it being neither Lawful or Chaotic, if that makes sense to you.

I was making a second, not specifically related point in that I can just as easily see Beauty, art, music, and love as non-good, similar to how Death is Neutral. This was mostly in response to the idea that love and beauty where the purest form of the Neutral Good Alignment.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My least favorite thing about Pathfinder's gods isn't so much the gods themselves (though I do have plenty that I could say there), but rather that there's still - unless I missed something somewhere - no concrete answer as to why they give a damn about promoting their worship among mortals in the first place.

We know they don't need mortal worship for power, and Paizo's stance of "gods are so powerful that they don't need stats" undercuts the idea of them building up divine forces via recruiting mortals who join them in the afterlife (especially since petitioners are really crappy forces anyway). So why do they care?

The only answer we've gotten is "it's a mystery," which isn't an answer at all; it's an evasion.

Silver Crusade

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Gods have interests and hobbies.

Silver Crusade

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DM Beckett wrote:
Delightful wrote:
Moving on. Does anyone have suggestions as to how their least fav god/goddess can be less terrible in your eyes?

Somethings I'd like to see that I think would go a long way.

Erastil Return to the original concept of him being very traditional family orientated, <or sexist>.

Well he's Good aligned, so no.


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Rysky wrote:
Gods have interests and hobbies.

That's like a poor answer wrapped in a non-answer inside a dismissive answer. It's a trifecta of badness!

...though I still like it better than "it's a mystery."

Silver Crusade

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Alzrius wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Gods have interests and hobbies.

That's like a poor answer wrapped in a non-answer inside a dismissive answer. It's a trifecta of badness!

...though I still like it better than "it's a mystery."

?

It's pretty to the point, Gods keep followers and minions each for there own specific reasons.


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I just love to haggle. And supposedly I'm a control freak, but I don't see it, I just know what's best, for everyone.


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Alzrius wrote:

My least favorite thing about Pathfinder's gods isn't so much the gods themselves (though I do have plenty that I could say there), but rather that there's still - unless I missed something somewhere - no concrete answer as to why they give a damn about promoting their worship among mortals in the first place.

We know they don't need mortal worship for power, and Paizo's stance of "gods are so powerful that they don't need stats" undercuts the idea of them building up divine forces via recruiting mortals who join them in the afterlife (especially since petitioners are really crappy forces anyway). So why do they care?

The only answer we've gotten is "it's a mystery," which isn't an answer at all; it's an evasion.

We can use social media as an example.

I survive just fine with no Twitter followers.

But I have noticed how much effort some people put into gaining more of them.

I think that mortal worshipers are to deities what Twitter followers are to us mortals.

Silver Crusade

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David knott 242 wrote:
Alzrius wrote:

My least favorite thing about Pathfinder's gods isn't so much the gods themselves (though I do have plenty that I could say there), but rather that there's still - unless I missed something somewhere - no concrete answer as to why they give a damn about promoting their worship among mortals in the first place.

We know they don't need mortal worship for power, and Paizo's stance of "gods are so powerful that they don't need stats" undercuts the idea of them building up divine forces via recruiting mortals who join them in the afterlife (especially since petitioners are really crappy forces anyway). So why do they care?

The only answer we've gotten is "it's a mystery," which isn't an answer at all; it's an evasion.

We can use social media as an example.

I survive just fine with no Twitter followers.

But I have noticed how much effort some people put into gaining more of them.

I think that mortal worshipers are to deities what Twitter followers are to us mortals.

... we need twitter accounts for all the deities.

Shadow Lodge

I put "sexist" as an aside as I don't really see it as the big complaint some folks seemed to blow it up to be, and because I think in this case "sexist" was more used as an undefined hot-button accusation than anything. He focuses on strong family bonds and building families and communities.

I think if this was a LG FEMALE deity, no one would blink an eye and might even applaud it's progressivism. And that's a problem, albeit one that's outside of the game and not really related to this topic.

However, Erastil's faith is much more based around keeping the family and community strong, defending everyone, but particularly in harsher or more dangerous areas, and doing things yourself, and not keeping women in the kitchen.


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Rysky wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Delightful wrote:
Moving on. Does anyone have suggestions as to how their least fav god/goddess can be less terrible in your eyes?

Somethings I'd like to see that I think would go a long way.

Erastil Return to the original concept of him being very traditional family orientated, <or sexist>.

Well he's Good aligned, so no.

Honestly I kinda like it when Good deities have some vices or at least some views that range a bit further down than the basic "honorable warrior" or "friendship and redemption!"

To me it helps color the gods and give a sensible outlet for all those neutral yahoos that worship them. For instance: Erastril believes in the traditional family unit of the man being the breadwinner and the woman being in control of the home but being a Good guy, he'll get over it (maybe with a bit back in my day grumbling) if someone reverses the roles. Meanwhile the LN folks at Stag Swamp go down the line to women should be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. That view now makes sense considering the deity and leads to a richer setting that has a basis in the god's portfolio rather than "Stag Swamp is misogynist just cuz"


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Rysky wrote:
It's pretty to the point, Gods keep followers and minions each for there own specific reasons.

As a possible answer, I suppose that works just fine. I don't find it to be very compelling, because it reduces the gods' interest in their mortal worshippers to - as David knott 242 put it - little more than people trying to puff up their Twitter accounts, which is essentially petty egoism and social posturing among their peers. But that's not what bothers me.

What bothers me is how Paizo has handled that question, in terms of not giving us an answer, rather than anything else. If the gods see their mortal worshippers as little more than pieces on a cosmic checkerboard that they're playing around with for nothing other than fame and bragging rights, that's fine. But freaking tell us that! Don't leave a giant gaping hole in one of the more fundamental aspects of the universe and act like it's a feature instead of a bug.

This is, at its heart, a philosophy of game design thing. I disagree wildly with the idea of pay-for products creating big mysteries that are never given a subsequent answer under the philosophy of "the answer is determined by you, in your home game." I've never liked that, because I can already do that on my own; I'm paying for your product because I've decided that it's more worthwhile for me to pay you to do my imagining for me, at least in this regard. Having a product that says "we've left this part blank, fill it in yourself" doesn't help me.

I know some people's take on this is "well, that way it's a surprise to your players even if they've read the book(s)," but that doesn't move me very much either. If I wanted to customize what's there, I can do that anyway - there's nothing stopping me from tossing out what's "official" and substituting my own take on something. But I'd at least like to have a pre-fab option in place so that I can decide if I want to keep it or toss it out. And if my players object to something that's "non-canon," then that's pretty clearly a fault of the players, rather than the game itself. Trying to have a game preemptively avoid "canon lawyers" (which, in my experience, are far rarer than a lot of people seem to think) always seemed backwards to me. Don't do less to try and mitigate the bad behavior of the few; do more so that you can maximize the enjoyment of the many!

In other words, I can deal with virtually any answer, one way or another, but I can't stand non-answers.


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Don't we have enough sexist deities in the game already.

As the parent of a girl I wholeheartedly agree with how Erastil is currently portrayed. It's hard enough trying to show not all men are sexist a$@%!$*s as it is. :-)

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