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Has anyone mentioned Naderi, goddess of bad fan fiction and teen angst? Anyone who would follow her needs help, not a divine enabler. No thanks.
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Speaking as one of the noisiest Cayden Cailean haters... he seems more polarizing than truly loathed, when taken at a distance- most people seem to like him a lot. Those of us who don't, however, really dislike him.
The Calistria and Pharasma divides seem a bit less pronounced... there's less of a difference in basic interpretation, and more disagreement over what that interpretation ultimately means.
EDIT: Of course, had I bothered to READ the Calistria debates on the other thread... DISREGARD.
Accidental godhood would have been much more appropriate on a roguish god of luck. He did something, doesn't quite know what, somehow didn't blow himself up, and got the ultimate reward for it.
A god of alcohol, on the other hand, should be a sinister god of regret. A god of fratboys just isn't appropriate...
As for Abadar, I don't really get the contradiction. He's pretty much just the god of capitalism, and thus its declination. He should be judged by that, and not by the silly abstractions of alignment. Does he tenants favor the rich? Sure, I guess. Are there many enduring social systems that don't favor those at the top? If no one is privileged, then no one is invested in preserving the status quo... Goodwill can bring more egalitarian systems to a certain length, but I think history shows that's not what typically happens. One could even argue that this social hierarchy is even more "good" in a fantasy world where all kinds of nasty things want to kill the peasants. Nasty humans was enough to bring widespread serfdom, now if you add the goblins, the orcs, the wargs, the barghests, the demons, the undead, the dragons, the tarrasque... Then you've got a whole bunch of threats that lvl 1 commoners could never even hope to defeat, not even with an ultra lucky hit or an ultra potent poison. Low-level NPCs NEED the existence of a high level elite to keep them safe. Abadar just steps in to promote the most efficient relation possible for the whole.
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I'll have to think on who my least favorite ones are...it varies upon my mood, but in defense of Cayden....
Source material sometimes seem to conflict itself, but I know faiths of purity says of Cayden Cailean "He’s legendarily fond of drink, but he’s not a drunk—his libations are those of the merry and brave, not those who drink to forget or as an excuse to abuse others."
So he's the positive side of the "If then by whisky" speech in my games, and oddly has a message of taking responsibility for your own actions.
I tend to play up his Freedom and Bravery before even those though.
Has anyone mentioned Naderi, goddess of bad fan fiction and teen angst? Anyone who would follow her needs help, not a divine enabler. No thanks.
I dunno. Her whole romantic suicide theme loses some of its punch when you know that the afterlife is objectively a thing that exists.
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Has anyone mentioned Naderi, goddess of bad fan fiction and teen angst? Anyone who would follow her needs help, not a divine enabler. No thanks.I dunno. Her whole romantic suicide theme loses some of its punch when you know that the afterlife is objectively a thing that exists.
Naderi is handy to have around if you want to get married and your families or the authorities don't recognize or support your relationship. Also, many of her priests and priestesses are survivors of suicide attempts.
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"He’s legendarily fond of drink, but he’s not a drunk—his libations are those of the merry and brave, not those who drink to forget or as an excuse to abuse others."
And again, someone drunk because their friend got married is just as drunk as someone who's trying to booze the pain away.
Shackling him to booze in both origin and focus was... a certain insurance that I (and apparently others, who knew...) would never like him as a heroic figure.
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Getting mad at alcohol instead of alcoholics is shifting the blame in a really weird way. You don't blame donuts for someone getting fat, and it's not the car's fault you had a horrible wreck (usually). Plenty of people eat donuts and drive cars without ruining their lives over it.
The guy enjoys a good drink, and retains control of his life without hurting others via his habits. Nothing wrong with that.
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My parents were hacked to death by a great sword but I don't blame Gorum.
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"He’s legendarily fond of drink, but he’s not a drunk—his libations are those of the merry and brave, not those who drink to forget or as an excuse to abuse others."And again, someone drunk because their friend got married is just as drunk as someone who's trying to booze the pain away.
Shackling him to booze in both origin and focus was... a certain insurance that I (and apparently others, who knew...) would never like him as a heroic figure.
I appreciate your perspective, and while I don't share your views on Cayden, I understand why you might have them.
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Getting mad at alcohol instead of alcoholics is shifting the blame in a really weird way.
Asking someone to endorse a being whose entire divine existence revolves around promoting the creation and routine consumption of booze and who has no clear provision anywhere in the faith's doctrine for abstaining from it is a little bit different.
I have the occasional glass of wine.
I have the occasional beer.
I have,on this very forum, posted in the Scotch appreciation thread, because at time I enjoy a glass of single-malt.
I have multiple friends who, for a variety of reasons (cultural, physiological, or personal), cannot keep it to that. I game with some of them.
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Y'know, plenty of Cayden's criticisms are fair. And seriously, who gets mad at alcoholics instead of alcohol? I'm not going to blame the sick for the sickness. Down with the sickness!
But he's not a god of frat boys. Look, criticizing the alcohol aspect is a decent point. But he's not fraternal. He's not a Bro. He's a god of partying hard and taking care of people. I have many peers who party hard and dance and sing drunken karaoke and all that while also being super nice, super smart, super hardworking people. I went to Chile for a "Study Abroad" program with a few of them. One of them was the smartest student in the group, and kind of the group's caretaker, helping everyone out and always being sympathetic to people's problems. But she and her friends clubbed. They clubbed hard. They might very well be Caydenites.
The whole "frat boy" characterization seems like an effort to caricature Cayden Cailean as matching the most negative possible stereotype for extroverts. But he's not a jerk. He's not "one of the guys". He doesn't practice s+&#ty initiation rituals or ban women from joining his organization. He's just one of those lovable, well-intentioned extroverts who's maybe a bit goofy and bumbling but overall always, always does the right thing.
And there are fair criticisms of him. I think many of Cole's points might actually be pretty reasonable. But "frat boy" isn't in Cayden Cailean's portfolio. I think Cayden Cailean would probably regard most fraternities of today as being obnoxious elitist clubs, and that's not something he can get behind.
Now hold his beer and watch this.
And seriously, who gets mad at alcoholics instead of alcohol? I'm not going to blame the sick for the sickness. Down with the sickness!
Alcohol is an inanimate object.
Why would you be angered by an inanimate object?
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Getting mad at alcohol instead of alcoholics is shifting the blame in a really weird way.Asking someone to endorse a being whose entire divine existence revolves around promoting the creation and routine consumption of booze and who has no clear provision anywhere in the faith's doctrine for abstaining from it is a little bit different.
There's also nothing that says a follower of his MUST drunk alcohol either.
In fact, "Most individuals who are easily sickened from drinking or dislike the taste of alcohol usually do not enter the clergy, but the faith would never turn away a worthy potential who has no taste for booze." - Inner Sea Gods
There's more to his faith than just drinking. Abolitionism, community engagement, protecting personal freedoms, fighting against profiteering and bravery in general are parts of his divine portfolio and ethos as well.
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Has anyone mentioned Naderi, goddess of bad fan fiction and teen angst? Anyone who would follow her needs help, not a divine enabler. No thanks.
I get the hate, but Naderi is actually my favorite deity in the setting. I tend to play her very much against the stereotype though.
(I have a Cleric of Naderi in PFS who hands out business cards at the beginning of every session. On one side they say "Couples Counseling". On the other side it's "End of Life Counseling". But she tries not to mix the two clientelles.)
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There's also nothing that says a follower of his MUST drunk alcohol either.
In fact, "Most individuals who are easily sickened from drinking or dislike the taste of alcohol usually do not enter the clergy, but the faith would never turn away a worthy potential who has no taste for booze." - Inner Sea Gods
There's more to his faith than just drinking. Abolitionism, community engagement, protecting personal freedoms, fighting against profiteering and bravery in general are parts of his divine portfolio and ethos as well.
And also Desna's, Milani's, Arshea's...
There are more reasons for a non-drinker to avoid the church of "The Drunken Hero" than there are to join it.
For the record, I actually like most of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting pantheon, more than any of the previous D&D pantheons. Some of the Golarion deities labeled as Good actually seem to BE Good, or at least decent. Contrast this to . . . a whole lot of others(*). It's just a few spots within it (that I posted about above) that honk me off (and if you go back and reread my first post, I actually had to go to some effort to find least favorites in some of the alignment spots, and didn't succeed in some of them).
(*)Self-censored to avoid post deletion.
So it's not all negative on my end (which is actually pretty amazing, considering how depressing and abnormal my actual life is).
And seriously, who gets mad at alcoholics instead of alcohol? I'm not going to blame the sick for the sickness. Down with the sickness!Alcohol is an inanimate object.
Why would you be angered by an inanimate object?
Makes more sense to get mad at a famine than at the people starving to death, is all I'm saying.
{. . .}
The gods with the most commonly agreed problems are Gozreh and Torag are boring, Iomdae for the whole blasting people for not doing what she wants and Desna for being all over the shop.FTFY - it's been bugging me all thread.
FTFYSM -- it's been bugging me too.
Makes more sense to get mad at a famine than at the people starving to death, is all I'm saying.And seriously, who gets mad at alcoholics instead of alcohol? I'm not going to blame the sick for the sickness. Down with the sickness!Alcohol is an inanimate object.
Why would you be angered by an inanimate object?
Original post removed.
Suffice to say I don't think much of alcoholics or drug addicts, and deflecting all blame and responsibility for their actions away from themselves disgusts me. The fact that it's becoming the accepted way to deal with them even more so.
That's the last I'll say of it as far as this thread goes.
A guy who gets a deadly disease because he didn't wash his hands bears some responsibility, but to "blame" him is absurd. That's all I'll say about it.
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A guy who gets a deadly disease because he didn't wash his hands bears some responsibility, but to "blame" him is absurd. That's all I'll say about it.
That's not exactly a fair comparison - diseases, unlike alcohol, don't have an entire industry that tries to tell you "doing" them is cool. ;-)
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I think we call that the health care industry! Ziiiing!
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I generally don't see why one would dislike a god because of their agenda. This is a fantasy world not real life.
Cayden drinks too much, Lamashtu likes killing people, Calistria takes slights a bit too seriously, Erastil is politically incorrect... but that just adds flavour. Otherwise all gods would be the same old boring flawless "nice" guys.
Edit: Just to make my point clear some of the posts against Cayden sound like "I dislike Lamashtu because I don't support murder and torture"
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Edit: Just to make my point clear some of the posts against Cayden sound like "I dislike Lamashtu because I don't support murder and torture"
My stance is more akin to pointing out that calling Lamashtu Chaotic Neutral, say, when her whole schtick is murder and torture is thematically junk.
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For the record, I actually like most of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting pantheon, more than any of the previous D&D pantheons. Some of the Golarion deities labeled as Good actually seem to BE Good, or at least decent. Contrast this to . . . a whole lot of others(*).
I remember a few years back looking at the 3.5 Deities and Demigods and flipping from Norse or Egyptian pantheons and the "Dungeons and Dragons" Pantheon and feeling like the latter didn't feel real in the sense that they overlooked the day to day lives of people living in the universe. There was a goddess of Wizards but not of marriage for example.
Golarion deities do a much better job of hitting the "everyday concern" notes while still being relevant to adventurers.
Lamashtu may be a mother of monsters, but she's still a mother goddess.
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Has anyone mentioned Naderi, goddess of bad fan fiction and teen angst? Anyone who would follow her needs help, not a divine enabler. No thanks.I get the hate, but Naderi is actually my favorite deity in the setting. I tend to play her very much against the stereotype though.
(I have a Cleric of Naderi in PFS who hands out business cards at the beginning of every session. On one side they say "Couples Counseling". On the other side it's "End of Life Counseling". But she tries not to mix the two clientelles.)
Inner Sea Faiths expands upon her quite a bit, namely in that she and her non-twisted followers allow suicide as a last resort and try everything else first to keep couples together. They also tend to couples where one has a terminal illness, so PH's cleric isn't far off at all ^w^
Also ISF gives us this bit of badassery,
In memory of Shelyn’s role as Naderi’s patron, a few such clerics also sneak into Kuthite temples to offer merciful deaths to those being tortured in Zon-Kuthon’s name, feeding the victims an elixir that numbs their pain and gently stops their hearts. It also heals whatever wounds or deformities the Kuthites inflicted upon them, restoring the beauty of dignity to their bodies.
Can't think of a bigger F U to the God of Torture and his followers.
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Hmm, going off their whole mantra being that love transcends death I could see Naderi's followers Helldiving, even moreso than other deities' followers, in order to save unjustly damned souls who have been sent to a lower through say an infernal ritual or snatched from the River of Souls by Astradaemons.
Edit: Just to make my point clear some of the posts against Cayden sound like "I dislike Lamashtu because I don't support murder and torture"My stance is more akin to pointing out that calling Lamashtu Chaotic Neutral, say, when her whole schtick is murder and torture is thematically junk.
But then surely you'll agree there are people who throw parties, with Alcohol, that are good people?
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Chromantic, maybe it's best not to push this further. I think Cole has presented his case pretty clearly, and he's never said that everyone who drinks is bad. He's pointing out that Cayden Cailean does glorify alcohol consumption, which is true. If you disagree with an interpretation of that, wouldn't it be better to take it to the "Favorite deities" thread and just explain what you like about the god?
Fair enough, I won't bother going over to the other thread, I'm not really that fond of Cayden, I'm more interested in how alcohol figures into alignment for some people.
ANYWAY
Groetus doesn't seem to be a name that's come up much to my surprise. Gonna go read up.
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Maybe because Groetus (who I love) isn't much.....there? I mean, he does nothing, expects nothing, it's not even clear if he actually gives his clerics powers or not.
He's basically just waiting to flip the lights off when the entire multiverse goes kablooey.
Of course, a lot of his followers are lunatics/madmen and given that he's CN, quite a few of them end up being CE (hello, Mouth of the Apocalypse cult) so that's something to dislike (though not more than any other CE cult of a CN deity).
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Maybe because Groetus (who I love) isn't much.....there? I mean, he does nothing, expects nothing, it's not even clear if he actually gives his clerics powers or not.
Um, we do know for a fact that Groetus grants spells, and I don't think his article suggested otherwise. His followers even get unique/modified spells (They can summon Akatas!)
A guy who gets a deadly disease because he didn't wash his hands bears some responsibility, but to "blame" him is absurd. That's all I'll say about it.That's not exactly a fair comparison - diseases, unlike alcohol, don't have an entire industry that tries to tell you "doing" them is cool. ;-)
Ah, to have been the first Sumerian marketing genius tricking everyone into drinking this product that they wouldn't otherwise want.
Though I can get along with the idea of an apathetic neutral death god(dess), I do understand the beef some people have with Pharasma's apparent contradictions with things she supposedly opposes (or, deducing from other sources, she should), but uses little or none of her great powers to do anything about it. She's supposed to be mighty, but doesn't really feel that way in many regards.
Maybe because Groetus (who I love) isn't much.....there? I mean, he does nothing, expects nothing, it's not even clear if he actually gives his clerics powers or not.Um, we do know for a fact that Groetus grants spells, and I don't think his article suggested otherwise. His followers even get unique/modified spells (They can summon Akatas!)
Well, his writeup in Inner Sea Faiths doesn't suggest it, I was more remembering his earlier writeup in "Beyond the Doomsday Door" which says:
"Their existence [referring to his followers] is but a side effect of mistaken attempts to know the forbidden or unknowable (including failed attempts to use contact other plane spells). Some sages believe he may not even know he has worshipers."
Which sort of makes it sounds like they access their power more than he grants them to them, but this isn't in Inner Sea Faiths, which is newer, so it was probably dropped.
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Maybe because Groetus (who I love) isn't much.....there? I mean, he does nothing, expects nothing, it's not even clear if he actually gives his clerics powers or not.Um, we do know for a fact that Groetus grants spells, and I don't think his article suggested otherwise. His followers even get unique/modified spells (They can summon Akatas!)Well, his writeup in Inner Sea Faiths doesn't suggest it, I was more remembering his earlier writeup in "Beyond the Doomsday Door" which says:
"Their existence [referring to his followers] is but a side effect of mistaken attempts to know the forbidden or unknowable (including failed attempts to use contact other plane spells). Some sages believe he may not even know he has worshipers."
Which sort of makes it sounds like they access their power more than he grants them to them, but this isn't in Inner Sea Faiths, which is newer, so it was probably dropped.
It might have, or it might be in effect still, you don't need to be aware of your followers to empower them.
Case in point, Azathoth :3
Hah, quite true. Maybe I should've said he doesn't make a point of giving his clerics power they just....siphon it off? There's a cosmic lottery and if you lose you get Groetus' cleric powers (and you go mad)? You have a mail order catalog?
Questions questions.
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Maybe because Groetus (who I love) isn't much.....there? I mean, he does nothing, expects nothing, it's not even clear if he actually gives his clerics powers or not.Um, we do know for a fact that Groetus grants spells, and I don't think his article suggested otherwise. His followers even get unique/modified spells (They can summon Akatas!)Well, his writeup in Inner Sea Faiths doesn't suggest it, I was more remembering his earlier writeup in "Beyond the Doomsday Door" which says:
"Their existence [referring to his followers] is but a side effect of mistaken attempts to know the forbidden or unknowable (including failed attempts to use contact other plane spells). Some sages believe he may not even know he has worshipers."
Which sort of makes it sounds like they access their power more than he grants them to them, but this isn't in Inner Sea Faiths, which is newer, so it was probably dropped.
That exact language is also in the Inner Sea Faiths write up.
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Cayden is my favorite god in the pantheon, because he's the chillest, most relaxed god. I consider him a god for people who want to play clerics, have a GM that won't accept the "worship an ideal" style (like, say, PFS), but don't really want to do the whole religion thing- they just want to play the class. Which is nice because I like the class, but again, don't usually want to emphasize the religious part.(ps please don't turn this into an religion argument, I'm just saying, it's not my favorite avenue of story telling)
That said, I can totally see why people who have been negatively affected by alcohol in some way would have a problem with him. Nevertheless, I feel he fills an important niche, and the fact that this niche is actually filled is one of the few things I particularly like about the golarion pantheon. Just my two cents.
Anyway, on topic, I've gotta say Iomedae, for reasons that have been well discussed. Norgorber has never fit well with me either, though that may be because I don't know enough about him.
That exact language is also in the Inner Sea Faiths write up.Maybe because Groetus (who I love) isn't much.....there? I mean, he does nothing, expects nothing, it's not even clear if he actually gives his clerics powers or not.Um, we do know for a fact that Groetus grants spells, and I don't think his article suggested otherwise. His followers even get unique/modified spells (They can summon Akatas!)Well, his writeup in Inner Sea Faiths doesn't suggest it, I was more remembering his earlier writeup in "Beyond the Doomsday Door" which says:
"Their existence [referring to his followers] is but a side effect of mistaken attempts to know the forbidden or unknowable (including failed attempts to use contact other plane spells). Some sages believe he may not even know he has worshipers."
Which sort of makes it sounds like they access their power more than he grants them to them, but this isn't in Inner Sea Faiths, which is newer, so it was probably dropped.
Ah right, it's in the sidebar. Serves me right for ignoring it. Thanks!
I think what rubs me the wrong way about Groetus is as I understand him he is a Demigod or at the very least doesn't seem like one of the most powerful gods in the pantheon but he is meant to bring the apocalypse. Why wouldn't Asmodeus or Desna or Sarenrea just smite him?
Pharasma going insane or the Rovagug getting out, now that sounds like an apocalypse scenario to me.
Pharasma going insane or the Rovagug getting out, now that sounds like an apocalypse scenario to me.
A Heaven vs Elysium good guys civil war would be neat if executed well.
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Yeeeeeaaaaaah, gonna pass on that.Pharasma going insane or the Rovagug getting out, now that sounds like an apocalypse scenario to me.A Heaven vs Elysium good guys civil war would be neat if executed well.
Don't worry, it all gets resolved when Iomedae realizes Cayden Cailean's mom had the same name as her.
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Martha!?!