Can you take Free and swift actions before and after a Full Round actions?


Rules Questions

251 to 290 of 290 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>

thaX wrote:
Ok, free actions such as calling your foe an old fart. Swift and free actions are basically the same except for the limit of only one Swift per turn.

They are different actions with different limitations that govern different things that you can do. No reason to get it wrong when it takes 10 seconds to get it right.

Quote:
Yes, a full attack must be done as a part of a full round action. Where exactly does it say it prevents free and Swift actions from being performed? This is where the crux of the issue is, trying to limit free actions when they can be used freely, despite the full round action taking up the character's turn.

Close. A full attack is a full round action. It doesn't say anywhere that full round actions prevent a swift or free action before or after the full action. That was purely your invention that you seem to be trying to walk back by pretending that a full-attack action is not a full round action, even though that's what the rules say.

Quote:
The issue that had come up was trying to use one specific Free Action Attack in a way that was not intended, on top of using it outside of the Full Round Action. (this is the Whirlwind Attack with Spell Combat subject)

Not in this thread it hasn't, so why don't you stick to the other thread if that's all you care about. This thread is for figuring out the basic rules mechanics that govern full/free/swift actions. Stop trying to inject your biases from other threads into this discussion.

Quote:
Nothing is preventing the character from using a Swift or Free action during his turn other than if those actions are available for the character to use. (You can't drop a weapon if you are not wielding any, for example)

Well, in fact, you were claiming the rules prevented someone from using a swift or free action before or after full round actions, so you have to figure out your own cognitive dissonance on this topic if you want to have any shot of discussing it in a coherent manner.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Yes, dropping out of a Full Attack Action after the first attack is resolved is a specific exception to the general rule of committing to an action once you undergo its resolution. I can't stop a spell mid-action because I realize an enemy has readied against my spellcast, meaning I have to make a concentration check or lose the spell. That's bulls%!^, and you know it.

Whirlwind Attack still isn't a Full Round Action. It requires a Full Attack Action, that much is true, but that doesn't mean that it's an activity in and of itself, the same way Rapid Shot and Hammer the Gap aren't Full Attack Actions. Except, by your argument, they are, which means I can't stack any of those subjects with anything else that is a Full Attack Action, like Spell Combat, TWF, and so on.

If you're going to say that all spells are attacks, then I can substitute a spell anytime I would make an attack. I mean, spells are attacks now, right? This applies for any attack, whether it's a regular Full Attack, TWF, or even on AoOs. See how silly that sounds? That's a strawman, which is permitted by your interpretation that spells are attacks, which therefore means it's not correct.

You can still make the concentration check, unless the GM is a total feeb.

Ok, Full Attack is a Full Round Action. Whirlwind attack is worded in such a way to effect a full attack from something else as a part of it. Specifically the wording of "When you use the full-attack action." Spell Combat is a Full Round Action already. It is my belief that these two can not be used together, nor do they have any benefit from doing so. (Unless the caster can use a buff spell in place of the spell attack)

They are considered an attack. They break invisibility and are considered extra attacks when using them as a part of Spell Combat with Whirlwind Attack. It is still a spell, one considered an attack by the caster, at the time of casting.

By the way, Spell Combat is a Full Round Action, not a Full Attack. It is in the description that the full attack can be used for the weapon, but it never describes the ability as a full attack.


I don't think either thaX or Darksol has sufficiently dismissed either:

PRD wrote:
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action.

or

PRD wrote:
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

If you have thoroughly dismissed it somewhere, then sorry, I probably missed it somewhere in all the talk of the specific case of the whirlwind attack magus. Darksol did mention something to the effect of certain swift actions causing limits on further actions. And this can be true, after all if you use a swift action that (somehow) knocks you unconscious, you certainly aren't getting actions after that.

However, in the general case (not anything to do with the magus thing), what is the reason for not regarding the above? What is it that stops me from taking a swift action or 5-foot step distinctly before a full-round action when it states I can do so before other actions in the round? And what rules are you reading to get to that conclusion?


The Archive wrote:

I don't think either thaX or Darksol has sufficiently dismissed either:

PRD wrote:
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action.

or

PRD wrote:
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

If you have thoroughly dismissed it somewhere, then sorry, I probably missed it somewhere in all the talk of the specific case of the whirlwind attack magus. Darksol did mention something to the effect of certain swift actions causing limits on further actions. And this can be true, after all if you use a swift action that (somehow) knocks you unconscious, you certainly aren't getting actions after that.

However, in the general case (not anything to do with the magus thing), what is the reason for not regarding the above? What is it that stops me from taking a swift action or 5-foot step distinctly before a full-round action when it states I can do so before other actions in the round? And what rules are you reading to get to that conclusion?

I will say it again, that I don't personally agree with it, and that it's now how I run things at my table, but that is what the RAW, as it's been shown to me, says.

Argument for The Archive:
Expanding on that RAW argument, let's take an Eldritch Scion Magus. Ignore Spell Combat and all that for a moment.

Eldritch Scion Magi have spontaneous spellcasting and rely on spells known like a Sorcerer or Bard would. So, for them, casting a Metamagic Spell is a Full Round Action (unless they get some ability to say otherwise, which as far as I know, they don't).

Now, in order to cast a Full Round Action spell, much like a regular Standard Action spell, you must:

-Have your material components (basic, expensive, or Foci) drawn and ready for use
-Have one hand free
-Must be able to speak the associated incantations in a strong, firm voice

The only difference between a Standard Action spell and a Full Round Action spell, is the action required to cast it.

Unfortunately, the RAW says that a Full Round Action, any Full Round Action, takes your entire round (read: turn, for the argument to make sense) to complete. Logically speaking, especially in terms of a pie graph, if something takes the entirety of something, that means your turn is devoted 100% to that action. This means that your turn is your Full Round Action, and your Full Round Action is your turn; the durations and constraints of both are equal, and you are never in an instance where you are performing Swift/Free Actions, or even 5-foot steps, before or after your Full Round Action. (Which, again I personally disagree with. But that's the logic behind it, even though it's actually a paradoxical fallacy.)

We also have a FAQ giving a general rule stating that if an action you take (such as TWF, or Spell Combat) has restrictions or limitations associated with that action, they last for the entirety of that action.

Taking the ideal regarding Full Round Action durations above in conjunction with the FAQ rule, because a Full Round Action (such as casting a Metamagic spell) lasts for your entire turn, and that Full Round Action has limitations/restrictions, those restrictions likewise last for your entire turn.

And that's just the general rules.

There's also the matter of Swift and Free Actions in conjunction to those Full Round Actions, and how they interact with Full Round Actions. Even with what you quoted, that doesn't take credence to denying restrictions/limitations on those Swift/Free Actions you wish to take, since what you've quoted is stated in the following sentence to function "like a free action...in that regard." Unless you're suggesting that a Free Action gives you credence to ignore restrictions or limitations on actions, then you can't say for sure that sentence functions as you claim.

Even if you do, you'd be suggesting that (on the topic at hand), I don't require a hand holding nothing to hold the charge and deliver a Touch Spell. Not only is that silly, but ask any board member here, and they will tell you that A. You need a hand not holding anything, and B. Attempting to use that hand to hold or touch anything will discharge the spell, inadvertantly or not.

Of course, Spellstrike breaks that rule, but that's a Magus thing, which the argument has nothing to do with, but most importantly, it would make Spellstrike a (mostly) dead feature, because, I'm not required to deliver the Touch Spell with the hand holding the charge. I could deliver it with my feet, my elbows, knees, head, heck even a kiss, lick, or spitting would work! I could even urinate or defecate on the enemy to deliver the spell, how hilarious is that!?

It also creates funky rules interactions for those instances where you attempt to deliver the spell as a Free Action, miss, and then are somehow forced to use your hand for subsequent rounds of attempting to discharge the spell, because you can no longer do so as the Free Action that permitted you to otherwise ignore that limitation. Or more accurately, the spell discharges onto whatever your hand is touching at the start of your next turn if it isn't already discharged.

Back on topic with spellcasting; Standard Actions spells only require resolving a Standard Action, and as such don't take your entire turn to complete, and as such Free and Swift Actions can be taken before or after (along with 5-foot steps, if so desired). Full Round Actions Spells not only takes a different action to complete, but in the process, follow the rules of the associated action, and as such prolongs the fulfillment of certain conditions due to it taking a time longer than what the Standard Action spell takes. Namely, the ability to deliver a Touch Spell as a Free Action, and the ability to cast a Quickened Spell as a Swift Action.

Because a Metamagic Spell takes a Full Round Action, and a Full Round Action takes your entire turn, a Metamagic Spell takes your entire turn to complete. As such, the restrictions and requirements of casting a Metamagic Spell last for your entire turn, and the effects of your Metamagic Spell don't take place until your entire turn is complete.

Now Touch Spell rules state that I must cast a spell, and then touch the target. This creates an "in-tandem" situation, which is A->B. If A is casting the spell, and B is touching the target, that means I must have A in order to B. I can't do B if I don't fulfill the conditions set by A, which means B->A is not possible either. Yes, I can touch the target as a Free Action, but only in a round where I've already cast a spell, which once again means that the Free Action delivery requires A->B functionality as well.

In comparison to the Full Round Action rules previously discussed, this means that I cannot deliver the spell as a Free Action when I cast a Full Round Action spell, because my turn has ended, and as such I cannot take the Free Action required to deliver the spell. I cannot take the Free Action before my turn is complete, because that, by relation means that my spell isn't complete (and anything that would take place that could affect my spellcast would incur a concentration check that I would be required to make), and as such the conditions for being able to take that Free Action have not been met, meaning the option to take that Free Action isn't possible.

In short, if I have only one hand free, and I started casting a Metamagic Spell as a Full Round Action, unless I take a Free Action to drop whatever is in my other hand, I cannot take a Swift Action to cast a Quickened Spell (or even use Lay On Hands), as my free hand is occupied fulfilling Somatic components for the Metamagic Spell. Likewise, because a Full Round Action takes my entire turn, and a spell isn't complete until the action associated isn't complete, then I can't take the Free Action described.

That doesn't mean I can't take other Free Actions, like dropping items or speech, or other Swift Actions that don't require free hands, but certain actions, with certain restrictions or limitations, cannot be taken, simply due to conflicting restrictions (or inability to fulfill limitations).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber

I continue to see this as a simple question: do the penalties and restrictions of a given full round action effect a swift or free action taking place during a given round.

On one side some say that the full round action consumes all time and as such the swift and free actions are taking place during the full round action and hence are subject to any penalties, restrictions or condtitions incurred by that full round action.

On the other side some say that the full round action effects (unless specifically stated by the action) end when the action is completed, allowing free and swift actions to exist outside the penalties incurred by the full round action.

I reiterate the question I asked before: can I still cast as quickened spell and a full round action spell in the same round while holding a weapon. The full round action spell should consume my free hand, and if the quickened spell requires a free hand, I don't see how this works if I am subject to the conditions required for the full round action for the entirety of my round.


I'm gonna say that yes u can free/swift action before/during/after a full round action UNLESS due to when and what type of action is used would interrupt the full round action.
Different types of full round actions and what would be okay to do during one type of full round action could not be doable in another type of full round action. Just have to individually judge if okay or not per type of full round action.

My 2 cents.

Community & Digital Content Director

Removed a handful of back and forth posts, as well as some "flouncing" commentary.

251 to 290 of 290 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Can you take Free and swift actions before and after a Full Round actions? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.