Can you take Free and swift actions before and after a Full Round actions?


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Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Lorewalker. Does Hate Damage the character, hamper him in some way, or cause him to make a saving throw? It is considered an attack if it does.

Grand Lodge

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


See? Exercises like these can be fun...

You know what else is fun, you cannot ready a charge because it's a full round action but when you are staggered or slowed you can charge as a standard action- this means you can ready a charge- but only when impeded.

#sensefinder


And when you Charge as a Standard Action with the Pounce feature, you get a Full Attack Action, even while staggered.

FAQ supporting the statement.

#foundmysenses

(Ironically, I'm not a fan of hashtags.)

Grand Lodge

You've got to admit though thaX, the rules can definitely lead to some misleading ideas or absurd situations.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I just want to mention that the text passage where it says "a full-round action consumes all your effort" is copied and pasted from the D&D v.3.5 SRD, where it was copied and pasted from the D&D v.3.0 SRD. This means, when that passage was written, there was no such thing as the swift action—which was, I believe, first introduced with the v.3.0 Psionics Handbook—, and as such could not have been taken into account when the passage was written, i.e. "all your effort" meant "your move-equivalent action and your standard action".

Pathfinder rule text has these kind of artefacts from older game versions in various places. When text that is obviously newer contradicts one of these artefacts, it make sense to go with the newer text.

Another, especially egregious example of this kind of error is the rule text for the cloak of the manta ray. Go ahead and read it, and then try to make sense of it. Is it a polymorph effect, or is it not? Does it work like like beast shape II, or does it not? The text contradicts itself multiple times, and that is because it was copied verbatim from D&D 3.5 where polymorph effects worked entirely different, but even in 3.5 it was problematic, because the text was copied from D&D 3.0 and there it was already copied from AD&D Second Edition, which worked even more differently.


Zaister wrote:

I just want to mention that the text passage where it says "a full-round action consumes all your effort" is copied and pasted from the D&D v.3.5 SRD, where it was copied and pasted from the D&D v.3.0 SRD. This means, when that passage was written, there was no such thing as the swift action—which was, I believe, first introduced with the v.3.0 Psionics Handbook—, and as such could not have been taken into account when the passage was written, i.e. "all your effort" meant "your move-equivalent action and your standard action".

Pathfinder rule text has these kind of artefacts from older game versions in various places. When text that is obviously newer contradicts one of these artefacts, it make sense to go with the newer text.

Another, especially egregious example of this kind of error is the rule text for the cloak of the manta ray. Go ahead and read it, and then try to make sense of it. Is it a polymorph effect, or is it not? Does it work like like beast shape II, or does it not? The text contradicts itself multiple times, and that is because it was copied verbatim from D&D 3.5 where polymorph effects worked entirely different, but even in 3.5 it was problematic, because the text was copied from D&D 3.0 and there it was already copied from AD&D Second Edition, which worked even more differently.

Maybe Swift Actions didn't exist.

But if I remember correctly, Free Actions did. And that's a much larger contention to deal with than Swift Actions.


thaX wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
again, I'm saying this just to be clear, I do not endorse or agree with the argument:I was (just putting up my Strawman.) I'm merely presenting (an extreme representation that supports my reading of the rules) and (representing it) as Devil's Advocate for those who keep saying it's a rule to enforce.
Fixed that for (myself because I feel like stuff like this contributes to the discussion, but really doesn't and am only doing this for my own peace of mind).

Fixed that for you.

Back on topic now, please, or the thread will get locked due to lack of engaging the topic at hand.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Topic.

Can you take free and swift actions before and after a Full Round Action(s)?

Answer. No. You take them during a Full Round Action. Typically, before or after the Full Attack within the Full Round Action.

A Spell that typically takes a Standard action being cast as a Full Round Action because a Sorcerer is using a Metamagic feat or a similar reason uses it's effects in that round, still within the full round action as the spell is cast.

Now, if it helps the player to parse things by thinking of segments of a turn that doesn't actually exist, by all means, do so. The rules won't change. Just remember, this will not allow for extra particulars that are limited by the Full Round action being used, such as gaining an extra attack outside of a whirlwind attack, or two handing a weapon to deliver the effects of a spell cast with Spell Combat through the weapon with Spellstrike to get 1.5 times str mod for the weapon hit.

The extreme limitations that Darksol is using are already proven false when a player can perform a free/swift action at any time. This has been quoted by both "sides" in all three threads for over 1200 posts.

Please, leave the strawman in the field and stay on topic.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Zaister wrote:

I just want to mention that the text passage where it says "a full-round action consumes all your effort" is copied and pasted from the D&D v.3.5 SRD, where it was copied and pasted from the D&D v.3.0 SRD. This means, when that passage was written, there was no such thing as the swift action—which was, I believe, first introduced with the v.3.0 Psionics Handbook—, and as such could not have been taken into account when the passage was written, i.e. "all your effort" meant "your move-equivalent action and your standard action".

Thank you for this. I have already mentioned that the Full-Round Action takes the place of the Standard and Move action, and quoted the relevant text. (right now, I am not sure which thread it is in)

The Core Rulebook as the text in categories also, Standard action and all the sub-subjects that are under it as well as Full-Round Action and the same. This seems forgotten when quoting individual passages that relate to the action it is listed under, such as Spell Casting under Standard.


thaX wrote:

Topic.

Can you take free and swift actions before and after a Full Round Action(s)?

Answer. No. You take them during a Full Round Action. Typically, before or after the Full Attack within the Full Round Action.

A Spell that typically takes a Standard action being cast as a Full Round Action because a Sorcerer is using a Metamagic feat or a similar reason uses it's effects in that round, still within the full round action as the spell is cast.

Now, if it helps the player to parse things by thinking of segments of a turn that doesn't actually exist, by all means, do so. The rules won't change. Just remember, this will not allow for extra particulars that are limited by the Full Round action being used, such as gaining an extra attack outside of a whirlwind attack, or two handing a weapon to deliver the effects of a spell cast with Spell Combat through the weapon with Spellstrike to get 1.5 times str mod for the weapon hit.

The extreme limitations that Darksol is using are already proven false when a player can perform a free/swift action at any time. This has been quoted by both "sides" in all three threads for over 1200 posts.

Please, leave the strawman in the field and stay on topic.

It's not a strawman. It's the RAW you've cited that you're not willing to accept wholly because you know for a fact that it breaks the game in several unintended ways if you do. Not understanding the argument or caring to understand the argument being presented doesn't make it a strawman.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Who is not understanding how rules work together and are used?

I believe that inferring that the rule is something restrictive in the manner you have noted is not how it is intended or is close to how Free Actions or Swift Actions interact, or fail to interact, with the Full Round Action in RAW. As you come to this conclusion, your purposefully ignoring the intended use of those actions in the other sections of the book to come to an extreme conclusion that puts the separation of Full-Round Actions from the rest of the turn into a better light.


As a sorcerer, you can't cast a swift action Shocking Grasp and a metamagic Shocking grasp during the same full-round action because you would be casting two spells at the same time.

Once agin, you're wrong. Not only are you wrong, but you don't even know why you're wrong. It's pointless to talk with you about this any further since you can't even argue honestly.


thaX wrote:

Topic.

Can you take free and swift actions before and after a Full Round Action(s)?

Answer. No.

I just don't see how this is true. People are acting like full round actions are some sort of special, magical thing that somehow changes they way your turn works but they aren't. Normally in a round you get a standard and a move action. Or you can take a full round action. That's it. Everything else that happens on your turn is completely normal.

There's no reason to prescribe all these weird extra bits to them.

Dark Archive

_Ozy_ wrote:

As a sorcerer, you can't cast a swift action Shocking Grasp and a metamagic Shocking grasp during the same full-round action because you would be casting two spells at the same time.

Once agin, you're wrong. Not only are you wrong, but you don't even know why you're wrong. It's pointless to talk with you about this any further since you can't even argue honestly.

Actually you can. It is clearly laid out in the CRB that a Full Round Action does not prevent a Swift or Free Action. If you want to dispute this then quote from the rules exactly where it says "If you take a Full Round Action you can not take Swift Actions."

All of your arguments up to this point are based on reading between the lines and conjecture, you are refusing to look at the rules as laid out by Paizo in the CRB. If anyone is pointless to argue with it is you, you let personal opinion get in the way of RAW fact and logic.

Either provide factual evidence, or kindly refrain from instigating pointless dialogue.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Ozy, Quickened spells are cast as a swift action no matter the caster, it is a specified exception in the rules. You even pointed this out to me in other threads not related to this and has been pointed out by others.

Squiggit.

The issue seems to be if Free/Swift actions are prevented by certain full round actions by some readings. To my mind they are not prevented and can be used as they always have been.

Dark Archive

Squiggit wrote:
thaX wrote:

Topic.

Can you take free and swift actions before and after a Full Round Action(s)?

Answer. No.

I just don't see how this is true. People are acting like full round actions are some sort of special, magical thing that somehow changes they way your turn works but they aren't. Normally in a round you get a standard and a move action. Or you can take a full round action. That's it. Everything else that happens on your turn is completely normal.

There's no reason to prescribe all these weird extra bits to them.

Agreed here, RAW does not add all these other details that everyone seems so keen on trying to force in.


RSX Raver wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

As a sorcerer, you can't cast a swift action Shocking Grasp and a metamagic Shocking grasp during the same full-round action because you would be casting two spells at the same time.

Once agin, you're wrong. Not only are you wrong, but you don't even know why you're wrong. It's pointless to talk with you about this any further since you can't even argue honestly.

Actually you can. It is clearly laid out in the CRB that a Full Round Action does not prevent a Swift or Free Action. If you want to dispute this then quote from the rules exactly where it says "If you take a Full Round Action you can not take Swift Actions."

Um. I never said otherwise. I said quite specifically that you can take Swift and full actions before or after full round actions.

In fact this is the only way you can cast quickened spells while performing a full round action. Because otherwise you would be trying to cast a spell while doing something that was using your hands, like casting another spell, or fighting, or several other things one does with full round actions.

Quote:

All of your arguments up to this point are based on reading between the lines and conjecture, you are refusing to look at the rules as laid out by Paizo in the CRB. If anyone is pointless to argue with it is you, you let personal opinion get in the way of RAW fact and logic.

Either provide factual evidence, or kindly refrain from instigating pointless dialogue.

Fact:

1) You can cast a quickened spell in the same round as a full-round action spell

2) You can't cast a spell while your hands are otherwise occupied

3) Casting a full-round spell occupies your hands for the full-round action

4) Because of 2, & 3, you can't cast a quickened spell during a full round action spell

5) Because of 1 & 4, swift actions must be able to be used outside of a full-round action, which means before or after.

How about those facts?

Dark Archive

_Ozy_ wrote:
RSX Raver wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

As a sorcerer, you can't cast a swift action Shocking Grasp and a metamagic Shocking grasp during the same full-round action because you would be casting two spells at the same time.

Once agin, you're wrong. Not only are you wrong, but you don't even know why you're wrong. It's pointless to talk with you about this any further since you can't even argue honestly.

Actually you can. It is clearly laid out in the CRB that a Full Round Action does not prevent a Swift or Free Action. If you want to dispute this then quote from the rules exactly where it says "If you take a Full Round Action you can not take Swift Actions."

Um. I never said otherwise. I said quite specifically that you can take Swift and full actions before or after full round actions.

In fact this is the only way you can cast quickened spells while performing a full round action. Because otherwise you would be trying to cast a spell while doing something that was using your hands, like casting another spell, or fighting, or several other things one does with full round actions.

Quote:

All of your arguments up to this point are based on reading between the lines and conjecture, you are refusing to look at the rules as laid out by Paizo in the CRB. If anyone is pointless to argue with it is you, you let personal opinion get in the way of RAW fact and logic.

Either provide factual evidence, or kindly refrain from instigating pointless dialogue.

Fact:

1) You can cast a quickened spell in the same round as a full-round action spell

2) You can't cast a spell while your hands are otherwise occupied

3) Casting a full-round spell occupies your hands for the full-round action

4) Because of 2, & 3, you can't cast a quickened spell during a full round action spell

5) Because of 1 & 4, swift actions must be able to be used outside of a full-round action, which means before or after.

How about those facts?

And if that metamagic spell was a Still Spell, that would completely defeat your logic there, since your hands are no longer occupied with somatic components.

Let me get one logic step ahead of you and say that you can not cast 2 spells at the same time because of verbal components. What if it was a Still and Silent Spell, now what is your logic?


Quote:
What if it was a Still and Silent Spell, now what is your logic?

But what if it wasn't? Your what-if doesn't negate the premise of his point either.


Quote:
And if that metamagic spell was a Still Spell, that would completely defeat your logic there, since your hands are no longer occupied with somatic components.

Oh my god. Really? Why go out of your way to bring up stuff that is both obvious and irrelevant?

Unless it's your claim that you can only cast silent and/or quickened spells when you cast a full-round spell, what's your point?

My facts are used to demonstrate that a quickened spell CAN be used outside of a full round action, not that they MUST be.

If you want to argue that one can cast two spells in the same action if they are stilled, silent, and one is quickened. Be my guest.


thaX wrote:
The issue seems to be if Free/Swift actions are prevented by certain full round actions by some readings. To my mind they are not prevented and can be used as they always have been.

Well yeah, it's not prevented because of the action type it is. Nobody's saying that. It's prevented based on the requirements of the action being taken. What we're saying is that you can only take those actions if you can meet the pre-requisites for those actions.

You're trying to impart that you can deliver a Full Round Action spell in the same turn you cast it, which is impossible since A. it specifies round, and not turn (and you can't seem to understand what difference that makes), and B. the spell isn't finished until the action required to cast that spell is finished, at which point we've already agreed that attempting to deliver a spell before a spell is cast does nothing and is impossible.

You're also trying to say that Quickened Spells cast during Spell Combat don't require a free hand to fulfill somatic components, but you have one hand holding/wielding a one-handed/light weapon, and you have another hand occupied by the act of performing Spell Combat (regardless of if the spell you cast has somatic components or not). So how are you fulfilling somatic components for that spell if the hands performing Spell Combat are occupied until your turn ends?

And that's not even getting into being able to deliver that spell upon casting it as well, which is just a repeat of the first point.

Dark Archive

Squiggit wrote:
Quote:
What if it was a Still and Silent Spell, now what is your logic?
But what if it wasn't? Your what-if doesn't negate the premise of his point either.

His point started with a blanket statement (which I quoted earlier) that it can not be done. I am pointing out that his statement was incorrect. Yes, in general it will not be doable for the stated reasons. But if you are going to make a statement on a Rules Forum that you can not do something without supporting it either with caveats or rules quotes, then you should not be surprised when someone counters it.

I have already agreed with Ozy that you do your quickened spells before or after your full round action to cast a metamagic spell. His logic is not flawed there, but anyone can see the emotion coming through in his posts with his word choice.

Ozy, My point is that you were making a definitive statement. You argued that it could not be done, I showed that you need more then just the logic of "your hands are occupied" to say so. This game is incredibly complex with thousands of possible interactions. If you are going to talk about rules and logic, leave the ego and emotion at the door and base the discussion on fact.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Zaister wrote:

I just want to mention that the text passage where it says "a full-round action consumes all your effort" is copied and pasted from the D&D v.3.5 SRD, where it was copied and pasted from the D&D v.3.0 SRD. This means, when that passage was written, there was no such thing as the swift action—which was, I believe, first introduced with the v.3.0 Psionics Handbook—, and as such could not have been taken into account when the passage was written, i.e. "all your effort" meant "your move-equivalent action and your standard action".

Pathfinder rule text has these kind of artefacts from older game versions in various places. When text that is obviously newer contradicts one of these artefacts, it make sense to go with the newer text.

Another, especially egregious example of this kind of error is the rule text for the cloak of the manta ray. Go ahead and read it, and then try to make sense of it. Is it a polymorph effect, or is it not? Does it work like like beast shape II, or does it not? The text contradicts itself multiple times, and that is because it was copied verbatim from D&D 3.5 where polymorph effects worked entirely different, but even in 3.5 it was problematic, because the text was copied from D&D 3.0 and there it was already copied from AD&D Second Edition, which worked even more differently.

Maybe Swift Actions didn't exist.

But if I remember correctly, Free Actions did. And that's a much larger contention to deal with than Swift Actions.

Not to mention that when it comes to the rules about when you can use them, it's clearly laid out that you can do a Swift Action any time you can perform a free action. The only difference between them is that you're limited to one swift action a round, while free actions have no limit (bar GM call that they're being used for something ridiculous).


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Yes.


RSX Raver wrote:
Ozy, My point is that you were making a definitive statement. You argued that it could not be done, I showed that you need more then just the logic of "your hands are occupied" to say so. This game is incredibly complex with thousands of possible interactions. If you are going to talk about rules and logic, leave the ego and emotion at the door and base the discussion on fact.

Actually, it didn't even happen like that.

I said you can't cast a quickened spell in the same full round action as a metamagic spell.

You contradicted by saying you can cast them in the same round, which I was never disputing.

Now it seems you are agreeing with the 'definitive statement' that I made, true? So perhaps this was based off a less than careful reading of what I said?

Dark Archive

_Ozy_ wrote:
RSX Raver wrote:
Ozy, My point is that you were making a definitive statement. You argued that it could not be done, I showed that you need more then just the logic of "your hands are occupied" to say so. This game is incredibly complex with thousands of possible interactions. If you are going to talk about rules and logic, leave the ego and emotion at the door and base the discussion on fact.

Actually, it didn't even happen like that.

I said you can't cast a quickened spell in the same full round action as a metamagic spell.

You contradicted by saying you can cast them in the same round, which I was never disputing.

Now it seems you are agreeing with the 'definitive statement' that I made, true? So perhaps this was based off a less than careful reading of what I said?

Incorrect, I agree with most of your statement but it is only accurate 95% of the time. It is still possible to cast your quickened spell during your full round metamagic spell in very corner case situations. That is unless you know of a rules passage I am not remembering the explicitly says it is not possible regardless of anything else.

I am also pointing out that your statements like "Once again your wrong" are neither constructive nor reinforce your point, hence why I said to leave the ego and emotion at the door. You want to prove your right, then call out rules in the book or link a FAQ/Post from a Dev.

Now you can infer whatever you want from all that, it matters very little to me. I would just rather this thread continue as healthy discourse and not personal attacks.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The inference is if the Full Round Action takes the whole round, then there is no time for Free Actions or Swift Actions when casting a spell in this way. It is an extreme reading of the rules, one come to when discussing an unrelated ability called Spell Combat, that uses a spell as an off hand weapon.

That those actions can be taken at anytime seems lost when trying to do it within the parameters of the round that most players do not get into.

Typically, a character uses the full round action, does his attacks, maybe 5 ft steps and is done.

Then we get into Spell Combat. The spell in the off hand. Is it an attack? A spell? Both? Can I cast it then use the attack outside of the Full Round action? Can I use Spell Combat together with Whirlwind Attack and then use the spell's attack after I have done the Whirlwind Attack? Can I just cast all my spells at once in the same round instead? How about if my character explodes and kills everything in a 5 mile radius...

Three threads later we are still discussing it.

Full Round Action takes the whole round. You can use Free/Swift actions during that full round action, just as we have for the past 8 years.

Dark Archive

thaX wrote:


Can I use Spell Combat together with Whirlwind Attack and then use the spell's attack after I have done the Whirlwind Attack?

Why is that a question? Whirlwind Attack is part of a Full Attack Action. Spell Combat is a separate action. Both Full Attack and Spell Combat are both Full Round Actions. Spell Combat does not equal Full Attack Action.

You could not take a standard to attack and then take a standard to drink a potion. You can not Whirlwind and Spell Combat, you only get 1 Full Round Action per turn, you gotta pick one.


RSX Raver wrote:
thaX wrote:


Can I use Spell Combat together with Whirlwind Attack and then use the spell's attack after I have done the Whirlwind Attack?

Why is that a question? Whirlwind Attack is part of a Full Attack Action. Spell Combat is a separate action. Both Full Attack and Spell Combat are both Full Round Actions. Spell Combat does not equal Full Attack Action.

You could not take a standard to attack and then take a standard to drink a potion. You can not Whirlwind and Spell Combat, you only get 1 Full Round Action per turn, you gotta pick one.

There's actually a FAQ that makes it a reasonable question.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
RSX Raver wrote:
thaX wrote:


Can I use Spell Combat together with Whirlwind Attack and then use the spell's attack after I have done the Whirlwind Attack?

Why is that a question? Whirlwind Attack is part of a Full Attack Action. Spell Combat is a separate action. Both Full Attack and Spell Combat are both Full Round Actions. Spell Combat does not equal Full Attack Action.

You could not take a standard to attack and then take a standard to drink a potion. You can not Whirlwind and Spell Combat, you only get 1 Full Round Action per turn, you gotta pick one.

Agreed. The question was posed in this Thread. It was determined that because Whirlwind Attack says "When you use the full-attack action" instead of some other wording, I suppose, that the Spell Combat ability can be used along side of it since it uses a "Full Round action" that can have the "Full Attack" done within it. All this supposition is because Spell Combat uses a spell, which is a casting, "not an attack" as it has been said, and the Free Action Attack given from the spell is a separate effect done "outside of the Full Round Action."

My stance is that the spell is a part of the Full Round Action, and must impart it's effects within it.

Liberty's Edge

Cuttler wrote:

I'm making this new thread because of other threads that raised a lot of debates and questions but came to a circle with still a desagreement to the correct interpretation (both sides believing they are right)

The two interpretation/opinions are:

1- No. You cannot because the definition of Full Round action indicates that it consumes the whole round and thus you can only take those actions within the Full round action (and under any restriction imposed by the type of Full round action you took)

2- Yes you can. Basically, the notion is that there is a gap before or after that full round actions that allows you to take the Free (which take no time at all) and swift actions.

I believe that this thread is necessary to look at the overall RAW and defines if it is possible or not and should be Faqed because it would greatly benefits from clarification from the PDT and resolve many other threads in the forum.

Thanks!

A better question would be what type of shenanigans are you trying to run by your DM?

So far the consensus and the way I've always played is that you can take free and swift actions any time during a full attack. Take for example an archer nocking an arrow for a three attack full attack. If he has no arrow nocked he has to take a free action to nock one in. If he has one already prepped his last action will probably be to nock one, especially if he has the feat that allows him to AoO.

Spellcasters can also two hand and cast. They do it all the times with quarterstaffs.

If you are a DM and trying to stop free and swift actions from happening for shenanigans reasons, your probably killing the fun of a player that invested Feats into a concept. Don't be that guy.

Granted of course the GM is the ultimate arbitrary of how many free actions you can take. General consensus about 3-4. I use about 5-6 as archers can easily draw this many arrows if they have invested into it.

Remember your characters are playing wanna be heroes. Let them. Just remind them that what is good for the goose is also good for the gander.

Now back to my original question, what type of shenanigans are you trying to run?


RSX Raver wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
RSX Raver wrote:
Ozy, My point is that you were making a definitive statement. You argued that it could not be done, I showed that you need more then just the logic of "your hands are occupied" to say so. This game is incredibly complex with thousands of possible interactions. If you are going to talk about rules and logic, leave the ego and emotion at the door and base the discussion on fact.

Actually, it didn't even happen like that.

I said you can't cast a quickened spell in the same full round action as a metamagic spell.

You contradicted by saying you can cast them in the same round, which I was never disputing.

Now it seems you are agreeing with the 'definitive statement' that I made, true? So perhaps this was based off a less than careful reading of what I said?

Incorrect, I agree with most of your statement but it is only accurate 95% of the time. It is still possible to cast your quickened spell during your full round metamagic spell in very corner case situations.

When?

If you are casting a spell as a full-round action, then you are using your entire action to cast a spell. I know of no rule that lets you cast two spells at the same time.

The rule that states you may take a free/swift action during other actions implicitly assumes that you actually are allowed to do so.

For example, if you're casting a spell with somatic components, you can't actually free-action quckdraw two weapons.

Furthermore, if something is true 95% of the time, that pretty much define what 'generally' true actually means, especially when my general statement was to dispute someone who:

claims it can't be done at all.

Thax thinks it is impossible to take a free/swift action outside of a full-round action. So, instead of trying to nitpick what you claim is a 5% error, why don't you address his 100% error?

Furthermore, do you actually dispute that you responded to my statement about 'during the same full-round action', by misinterpreting it as 'during the same round'?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

"Thax thinks..."

I am looking at the rules and how they interact. You can cast a spell, then cast a Quickened spell after that. This does not change when the spell is cast as a Standard Action, or as a Full-Round action because of Metamagic from a Spontaneous caster, or as a part of Spell Combat.

You are the one adding the restrictions, not I.


thaX wrote:

I am looking at the rules and how they interact.

*snip*

You are the one adding the restrictions, not I.

I think the most accurate statement is "W side thinks X, Y side thinks Z".

Both sides are looking at the rules and coming to conclusions on how they interact. To state your side as correct and the other side as thought removes the possibility of discussion, because there's no discussion when you've already convinced yourself that you're right.

I'm fairly rooted in my angle of interpretation, for example, but I'm still putting genuine effort in understanding the arguments put forth by both sides.


Cuttler wrote:

Yure wrote:


I'm making this new thread because of other threads that raised a lot of debates and questions but came to a circle with still a desagreement to the correct interpretation (both sides believing they are right)

The two interpretation/opinions are:

1- No. You cannot because the definition of Full Round action indicates that it consumes the whole round and thus you can only take those actions within the Full round action (and under any restriction imposed by the type of Full round action you took)

2- Yes you can. Basically, the notion is that there is a gap before or after that full round actions that allows you to take the Free (which take no time at all) and swift actions.

I believe that this thread is necessary to look at the overall RAW and defines if it is possible or not and should be Faqed because it would greatly benefits from clarification from the PDT and resolve many other threads in the forum.

Thanks!

A better question would be what type of shenanigans are you trying to run by your DM?

I'm not trying to run anything with my DM.

I started reading the thread about Full Round action and free actions, and saw the two sides debating about the specific in regards to Spellcombat and whether you could take a free attack (given by touch spell) after the full action is completed.

Reading the definition of Full round action that takes the entire round, I just asked myself if you could take free/swift after taking the FRA? (I think somebody mentionned it in the other thread).... So basically just tried to look at it at a higher level so it would apply to all FRA and not just looking at a specific case...

FYI: our group play mostly as side 2 as we never really faced the issue of dealing with those specific situation. The magus in our group always takes his free attack right after casting the spell...

So no shenanigans, but a real interest to know which way is the right way...

Now...One thing is still unclear for me from all the previous interesting discussions:

If a full round action takes the entire round (from 0 to 6), then indeed there should be no time to take other swift /free actions either before/after or during the Full round action because it take the entire round...So technicslly, you should be able to take at all....

But the rules say in the Full Round action description that you can still take Free/swift....

If the Full round action does not last the entire round, then it contradicts its own definition....

so is there a contradiction within the rules?? I saw good arguments on both suides, but haven't see a clear definitive answer...

Scarab Sages

thaX wrote:
Lorewalker. Does Hate Damage the character, hamper him in some way, or cause him to make a saving throw? It is considered an attack if it does.

Meant Haste. I was correcting the notion that all spells count as attacks when cast at an enemy. Which is not true.


thaX wrote:

"Thax thinks..."

I am looking at the rules and how they interact. You can cast a spell, then cast a Quickened spell after that. This does not change when the spell is cast as a Standard Action, or as a Full-Round action because of Metamagic from a Spontaneous caster, or as a part of Spell Combat.

You are the one adding the restrictions, not I.

It's not 'imposing a restriction' to say that the rules don't let you cast 2 spells at the same time, it's playing by the rules. It's the same rules that say you can't be TWF while casting a spell with S components.

The fact that you allow a full-action spell + a quickened spell in the same round merely means that you are playing by the rules that I am proposing rather than the rules that you are proposing. That swift action follows the full-round action. De facto, you are playing by the rule that says you can take swift actions outside of full-round actions.

You just don't seem to realize it.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Ozy, really. Well, if it is easier for you to parse it out that way, go nuts. Just keep in mind that the Spell effects will still happen within the full round action in Spell Combat. The only reason I am being a stickler with the Full Round Action taking the whole round is to prevent the very shenanigans you proposed in the first thread, to wit, taking the extra attack from Spell Combat (via the Free Action Attack from the spell) after Whirlwind Attack nixed it for it's own particulars.


Free and swift actions take place DURING full round actions. There is no space before or after.


thaX wrote:
Ozy, really. Well, if it is easier for you to parse it out that way, go nuts. Just keep in mind that the Spell effects will still happen within the full round action in Spell Combat. The only reason I am being a stickler with the Full Round Action taking the whole round is to prevent the very shenanigans you proposed in the first thread, to wit, taking the extra attack from Spell Combat (via the Free Action Attack from the spell) after Whirlwind Attack nixed it for it's own particulars.

Just fixed up your quote a little bit for ya.

So, you were 'trying to prevent shenanigans' by parsing the rules incorrectly, which leads to all sorts of breakage, rather than just admitting that the way RAW works, some unintentional shenanigans might be possible?

Wow. If I had realized your motivation sooner, that would have saved me, you, and everyone else a whole lot of useless pain.

The rules aren't perfect. Sometimes RAW leads to unexpected results. There are solutions that don't involve breaking fundamental game mechanics.

If you're a 'stickler' for a full round action taking the whole round, then quickened spell + full-round action spell literally does not work. But hey, at least you've prevented a hypothetical shenanigan from an unlikely build that has never actually happened in reality.

Give yourself a high five.


Goth Guru wrote:
Free and swift actions take place DURING full round actions. There is no space before or after.

Luckily, since free actions take 0 time, you don't need any space before or after to take free actions before or after.

That's what's neat about the quantity 0.


Goth Guru wrote:
Free and swift actions take place DURING full round actions. There is no space before or after.

I just don't see why not. There's no special rule that says your turn immediately ends after you complete a full round action, nor that a full round action needs to be the first thing you take in a turn.

From a more subjective perspective, this idea also ends up doing some wonky things to the rules and shutting down interactions that seem like they should work.


Indeed. You can take swift and free actions before you even decide what full round action you might end up taking.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Indeed. You can take swift and free actions before you even decide what full round action you might end up taking.

Exactly. To bring up the example of the magus, I could certainly see casting a quickened shocking grasp to see if it will finish off a weakened enemy, and then deciding whether to spell combat or move + standard depending on how that spell played out.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
_Ozy_ wrote:
Indeed. You can take swift and free actions before you even decide what full round action you might end up taking.

Yes, it is even mentioned in the section we have been quoting. As you do declare the full round action, those Free/Swift actions taken before become a part of that full round.

I really don't see why your being such a stick in the mud about this. This is the entry for Free Action.

Quote:

Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of

time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions
while taking another action normally. However, there are
reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as
decided by the GM.

You can use free actions while you are using a Full-Round Action. Why would it be outside of an action that takes up the whole round? Why would it need to be?


Squiggit wrote:
Goth Guru wrote:
Free and swift actions take place DURING full round actions. There is no space before or after.

I just don't see why not. There's no special rule that says your turn immediately ends after you complete a full round action, nor that a full round action needs to be the first thing you take in a turn.

From a more subjective perspective, this idea also ends up doing some wonky things to the rules and shutting down interactions that seem like they should work.

It's not an explicit statement, it's simply a result of applying logistics to the RAW (that thaX only selectively adheres to because he knows if he adhered to all of it, it'd be too extreme for him).

The fact that the RAW is "shutting down interactions that seem like they should work" tells us that either A. We've been reading things wrong this whole damn time (go figure), or B. The RAW isn't as restrictive as it logistically would lead itself. Either way, a FAQ/Errata is definitively needed.

Now, onto the logistics.

The RAW states that a Full Round Action takes your entire turn to complete.

If your entire turn is quantified as taking X seconds to do in relation to the combat round, then that means a Full Round Action takes X seconds to complete, because a Full Round Action eats up your entire turn. Fairly simple, right?

The RAW also says you can do Swift and Free Actions on top of it, but because the RAW regarding Full Round Actions takes up your entire turn, there is never a point, either before or after, that you can perform Swift or Free Actions, separate from a Full Round Action. The same is true of any action that you perform within a Full Round Action. Hell, if you had an ability to perform two Full Round Actions at once, both Full Round Actions would have to be started at the beginning of your turn, and complete when your turn completes.

Problem is, several key functions require things to be taking off after-the-fact (or even before-the-fact) of a Full Round Action.

One common example is Metamagic Touch Spells. Intensified Shocking Grasp is popular amongst Magi, and takes a Full Round Action to cast. Problem is, since that eats up your whole turn, you're never given an opportunity to deliver the spell as a Free Action (much less be able to 5-foot into position, which is funny since we have RAW saying you can, but the logistics would tell you no, as it creates a fun little issue with the requirement of a concentration check).

Another example are Quickened Spells in addition to Full Round Actions (such as a Quickened Shocking Grasp in addition to Spell Combat). A FAQ gives a general rule that an action's requirements or limitations function for the entirety of you taking that action. Since a Full Round Action lasts for the entirety of your turn, a Full Round Action like Spell Combat has specific limitations and requirements (one-handed weapon/free hand only) results in you being unable to cast a Quickened Spell because both hands are occupied by Spell Combat, and you cannot cast it before or after you undertake Spell Combat. It's a matter of mutual exclusiveness; if you perform the Swift Action first, then you're not able to perform Spell Combat (as Spell Combat must be the first action you take), and vice-versa (though in this case, you're limited by inability to cast the spell by not meeting its requirements).

That's not even taking into consideration how you can deliver said spells before they can even be cast, either as a Free Action or otherwise.

These are just a few of several issues that crop up when we take the RAW for what it is. This is precisely what I've been trying to expose with that RAW from the very beginning by playing Devil's Advocate, demonstrating how broken and silly the RAW interpretation is, meaning the RAI interpretation (that it's flavor text at best, demonstrating that it's the largest action type a character can perform in a given round) is the only sane and therefore correct answer.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Darksol wrote:
Strawman explanation

This dance is over, the band left a bit ago, and the cleaning crew is telling us to go home. There is no reason to forgo taking a Free Action or completing a spell within a Full Round Action. This is a limitation you made up.


What about a skirmisher ranger? I use surprise shift to move adjacent to an opponent as a swift action and then make a full attack against them.

Under the assumption that I must begin my turn with a full attack, this interaction becomes impossible as I cannot initiate the full attack from my starting position.

This leads to the even more bizarre result of ending up adjacent to a target with both my standard and move actions available and yet somehow unable to initiate a full attack.

I'm sorry I just can't buy that.


Squiggit wrote:

What about a skirmisher ranger? I use surprise shift to move adjacent to an opponent as a swift action and then make a full attack against them.

Under the assumption that I must begin my turn with a full attack, this interaction becomes impossible as I cannot initiate the full attack from my starting position.

This leads to the even more bizarre result of ending up adjacent to a target with both my standard and move actions available and yet somehow unable to initiate a full attack.

I'm sorry I just can't buy that.

You need to read the arguments I made with the RAW more carefully, you're jumping to conclusions with other actions without understanding that the argument I make is based on the chain of events and the restrictions of said events.

The Metamagic Spell argument is that I can't deliver a spell that isn't cast (as a Free Action, at least). A spell isn't cast until the action associated with the spell is completed (except in the case of 1 Round Spells, but that's its own exception, and is otherwise specifically listed). The action associated with a spell is a Full Round Action. A Full Round Action takes your entire turn to complete. Therefore, the Metamagic Spell takes your entire turn, start to finish, to cast. And we all know that once your turn finishes, with the exception of Immediate Actions (or abilities that let you take activities outside your turn), you can't take any other actions, including the Free Action to deliver the spell you just cast.

The Quicken Spell argument can be made in tandem with the Metamagic Spell argument, but the big thing to note is that the Quickened Spell can only be done while performing a Metamagic Spell, as the Metamagic Spell, as I've described above, like other Full Round Actions, takes your entire turn, start to finish, to complete. This means that you must be able to fulfill the components for both spells at once in order to be able to cast them. If you can't do both at once, you can't do both of them at the same time at all. In other words, you need two hands for Somatic components (even if very briefly), you need to be able to speak two sets of incantations at once for Verbal components (I don't even think that's plausible, but the argument that you can mix the incantations to function in tandem works well enough for me), you need to have your Material/Focus components drawn before you proceed to cast the spell, and so on.

When you apply the Quickened Spell argument to other Full Round Actions with similar or identical restrictions, such as TWF and Spell Combat, you realize that the ability to do so under those conditions is impossible as you are unable to fulfill the components required. Hell, even things like Lay On Hands, which likewise require a hand free, can't be done under those circumstances.

Going over your example, you can still do what you said you're going to do, because the Swift Action can be done as you start your Full Attack, before you make any attack rolls. There are no restrictions or limitations listed in a generic Full Attack Action (or a Full Round Action in general) that would make you unable to perform the Swift Action Trick you described. Yes, you must declare that you are going to Full Attack, but you don't have to make all of your attack rolls the instant you declare a Full Attack.

Whereas, with my examples, I've given explicit reason why you can't do so, and that is because of the limitations/restrictions of the actions you're undertaking interfere with themselves. If the Full Attack you make has any restrictions, such as requiring two hands using specific weapons, in the case of TWF, those restrictions are upheld for the entirety of the action you're taking, and would apply even if you're attempting to do other actions in conjunction with that action.

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