Can you take Free and swift actions before and after a Full Round actions?


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Well they may seem flawed if you do not know where the argument comes from...

Basically the argument for side 1 (no Free/swift outside FRA) comes from this:

First remember that an action type (standard, move, full round ) is defined as a duration:

CRB p.181
Action Types
An action’s type essentially tells you how long the action
takes to perform (within the framework of the 6-second
combat round) and how movement is treated.

Now as for FRA it says at two places:

CRB p.181:

Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all
your effort during a round
. The only movement you can
take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before,
during, or after the action. You can also perform free
actions and swift actions (see below). See Table 8–2 for a
list of full-round actions

CRB p. 187

Full-Round Actions
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete.
Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action,
though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can
take a 5-foot step.

So as you can see the argument is, as written, the FRA tells you that is last the entire round (from 0 to 6). Therefore, you technically can't take an action before or after because it last the entire round. But it allows you to take Free and swift between individual actions Inside the FRA.

So, you don't agree with one side, and thatis fine, but is not flawed but based on what's written. at least you understand where it comes from....


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I'm going to just start things off with this complaint. Don't start a thread asking for the general case, while really thinking about a specific case, and then essentially spend the first part of the thread saying "no, you don't get it." Please provide all the context in the future, even just as an example of the issue.

Firstly: No, a Full-Round action does not spend the entire 6 seconds of a turn. If you want the specific quotes for this, look at my earlier posts in the thread.

The Archive wrote:
And in addition: using a swift action explicitly does not affect one's ability to perform other actions on their turn. Ergo, if I start my turn with a swift, I can do whatever action thereafter with my turn (save another swift), including a full-round action. And since swift actions can be taken whenever a free action can, it follows that I can do the same with a free action. Therefore, you can perform other actions before a full-round action. And if that's true, well, that full-round action isn't somehow taking up all of your turn's time after all. So, you could perform actions after it as well.

Secondly: This FAQ gives a baseline for your re-gripping stuff: one switch to one-handed, one switch to two-handed. Anything more is up to the GM.


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Right there in your quotes!!!

Cuttler wrote:


CRB p.181:

Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all
your effort during a round. The only movement you can
take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before,
during, or after the action. You can also perform free
actions and swift actions (see below)
. See Table 8–2 for a
list of full-round actions

CRB p. 187

Full-Round Actions
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete.
Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action,
though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can
take a 5-foot step.

no where does it say you can't combine it with free/swift actions

Reading comprehension is a thing. For a start you don't stop reading after the first sentence in a paragraph.

So I'm still not seeing any supportable or good argument.
But people will believe what they want to believe.

Dark Archive

Cuttler wrote:

Well they may seem flawed if you do not know where the argument comes from...

Basically the argument for side 1 (no Free/swift outside FRA) comes from this:

First remember that an action type (standard, move, full round ) is defined as a duration:

CRB p.181
Action Types
An action’s type essentially tells you how long the action
takes to perform (within the framework of the 6-second
combat round) and how movement is treated.

Now as for FRA it says at two places:

CRB p.181:

Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all
your effort during a round. The only movement you can
take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before,
during, or after
the action. You can also perform free
actions and swift actions (see below). See Table 8–2 for a
list of full-round actions

CRB p. 187

Full-Round Actions
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete.
Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action,
though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can
take a 5-foot step.

So as you can see the argument is, as written, the FRA tells you that is last the entire round (from 0 to 6). Therefore, you technically can't take an action before or after because it last the entire round. But it allows you to take Free and swift between individual actions Inside the FRA.

So, you don't agree with one side, and thatis fine, but is not flawed but based on what's written. at least you understand where it comes from....

So this quote shows that the 5 foot step can occur before or after the action, it is not required during.

Also

CRB Pg. 188 wrote:


A swift action consumes a very small amount of time,
but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a
free action. You can perform one swift action per turn
without affecting your ability to perform other actions.

In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You
can, however, perform only one single swift action per
turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You
can take a swift action anytime you would normally
be allowed to take a free action.

That includes a Full Round Action. Swift and Free actions are independent of your action economy, they do not prevent a full round action from occurring if you take them before or after it. Everyone who is arguing against this is taking a micro-slice of the rules and extrapolating without looking at all of the rules. There it is, clearly defined by the CRB.

Scarab Sages

There's a misunderstanding of the question. No one (i don't think) is arguing that you cannot take a free or a swift action in the same round that you perform a full-round action. The question is not whether or not you can take a free or a swift action. The question is whether or not those free and swift actions are affected by restrictions included in the full-round action.

TWFing imposes a -2 penalty to your attacks. TWF is a full-round action which takes the entire round. Does TWF impose a -2 penalty to a swift action attack that you take during your round?

TWFing also requires that your off-hand effort be used on your off-hand weapon. Does that mean that you can't use that effort to receive 1 1/2x STR when making a swift action attack during your round?

Now we get to Spell Combat.

Spell Combat imposes a -2 penalty to your attacks, just like TWF. Does Spell Combat impose a -2 penalty to swift action attacks made during your turn?

Spell Combat also requires that you keep one hand free. Does that mean that you can't use that hand to receive 1 1/2x STR when making a swift action attack?

The answer very well might be No to all of those questions. The full-round action may not impose any limitation whatsoever on the swift action taken during the round. And I'd be fine with that, if it's the way things work.

But the argument continues that if that is true, then the full-round action also doesn't impose a limitation to any free actions taken during the round, and the free action granted by the spell that you cast during spell combat, therefore, does not have to apply the 1 hand free limitation. It only has to apply the -2 penalty because Spell Combat explicitly says it does. I don't buy into this one, because I feel that Spell Combat, Spellstrike, and previous designer comments make it clear that the free action as part of the spell is part of Spell Combat. So regardless of the answer to the other questions, you can only wield your weapon with one hand when delivering this free attack. That is apparently not stated explicitly enough in Spell Combat and Spellstrike for some people's tastes.

Separating that free action from Spell Combat also apparently has something to do with making a Whirlwind Attack in the same round you use Spell Combat. I don't understand that one, because I didn't participate in that thread.


How many threads can we argue this in?


_Ozy_ wrote:
How many threads can we argue this in?

Speaking is a free action. Can we do that while full-attacking?


The Sideromancer wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
How many threads can we argue this in?
Speaking is a free action. Can we do that while full-attacking?

Sure, everyone agrees that is possible. Some people think you can't do it before or after the full-attack.

Dark Archive

No, because the -2 penalty does not carry over to you AoOs after your turn. The -2 penalty is for the duration of the Full Round Action you are taking independent of everything else.

Again, Swift and Free actions operate independent of the Full Round Action you are taking, you can not 2H the Spell Combat attack, but the limitation of having a hand free is for the Spell Combat action itself.

The best example of another feature that imposes penalties to attacks is Power Attack. Which specifically states You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. . So you can not swift action a spellstrike, not power attack, and then spell combat with it. It also gives the duration of the penalty. Spell combat, and TWF, apply the penalty when taking the specific action, in this case a full round action, and then it goes away.


RSX Raver wrote:

No, because the -2 penalty does not carry over to you AoOs after your turn. The -2 penalty is for the duration of the Full Round Action you are taking independent of everything else.

Again, Swift and Free actions operate independent of the Full Round Action you are taking, you can not 2H the Spell Combat attack, but the limitation of having a hand free is for the Spell Combat action itself.

The best example of another feature that imposes penalties to attacks is Power Attack. Which specifically states You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. . So you can not swift action a spellstrike, not power attack, and then spell combat with it. It also gives the duration of the penalty. Spell combat, and TWF, apply the penalty when taking the specific action, in this case a full round action, and then it goes away.

If you take AoOs while you are using Spell Combat, do they also suffer the -2 to hit?

If you take AoOs while you are using TWF, do they take the to hit penalties?

Scarab Sages

Cuttler wrote:

The case you described Lorewalker is not an issue per say, because you can technically take a 5 foot step with a Full round action so in this case it has no impact. Actually, there is no issue with the 5-foot step at all...

But the specific case described by Johnny (spellcombat)would be impacted if the full round action takes the entire round or not....see the post of Johnny, thaX or my other post where I describec potential consequences depending on whether you can do free/swift before/after the Full Round Action.

The best argument given against taking a free action before or after a full round action is that the action takes up the whole turn. Yet, specifically, the rule proves that it can't be the way some have described with the task eating up the whole full-round action as even the rule explicitly includes a free action happening before and after. This removes that argument as a possibility.

As for Johnny's questions, they are handedness questions in regards to full attack actions. Not full-round actions in general. They would be answered by a FAQ in regards only to full attack actions and hand switching. "Can you remove or place a hand from/on a weapon during a full attack action. Such as starting a full attack action two-handing a longsword and remove a hand after the first attack to one-hand the longsword?".

In general, you can definitely use free and swift actions before and after the main task in a full-round action. That only leaves specific questions with separate rules interactions beyond full-round actions.

Also...

Combat Rules wrote:
"Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.

If you can't use a free action before firing an arrow as part of a full attack action... you must start the turn with an arrow in your hand to start a full attack action with a bow. As you would be unable to draw an arrow at the end of your last turn if you performed a full attack action... an archer generally would not be able to full attack two turns in a row if you could not use a free action before or after a full-round action.

Scarab Sages

The Sideromancer wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
How many threads can we argue this in?
Speaking is a free action. Can we do that while full-attacking?

Speaking is a free action unless you do too much. Then it steps up to a move action. This is why if you are nauseated you can't say two sentences but you can speak a 5 sentence paragraph.

Scarab Sages

Lorewalker wrote:

Also...

Combat Rules wrote:
"Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
If you can't use a free action before firing an arrow as part of a full attack action... you must start the turn with an arrow in your hand to start a full attack action with a bow. As you would be unable to draw an arrow at the end of your last turn if you performed a full attack action... an archer generally would not be able to full attack two turns in a row if you could not use a free action before or after a full-round action.

No one has said that you can't do this. All of the interpretations of the rules that are being presented allow for a free action to be taken during a full-round action and before or after any specific part of that full-round action.

I would guess that most players with archer PCs say "I'm going to full-attack" before they draw and knock an arrow, because most of them probably never say they are going to draw and knock an arrow. It's assumed to be part of each individual attack.


Ferious Thune wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:

Also...

Combat Rules wrote:
"Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
If you can't use a free action before firing an arrow as part of a full attack action... you must start the turn with an arrow in your hand to start a full attack action with a bow. As you would be unable to draw an arrow at the end of your last turn if you performed a full attack action... an archer generally would not be able to full attack two turns in a row if you could not use a free action before or after a full-round action.

No one has said that you can't do this. All of the interpretations of the rules that are being presented allow for a free action to be taken during a full-round action and before or after any specific part of that full-round action.

I would guess that most players with archer PCs say "I'm going to full-attack" before they draw and knock an arrow, because most of them probably never say they are going to draw and knock an arrow. It's assumed to be part of each individual attack.

Well, another point of that argument is any limitation on the number of free actions to less than ~8 or so will severely hinder builds that need free actions to draw ammunition.

Scarab Sages

_Ozy_ wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:

Also...

Combat Rules wrote:
"Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
If you can't use a free action before firing an arrow as part of a full attack action... you must start the turn with an arrow in your hand to start a full attack action with a bow. As you would be unable to draw an arrow at the end of your last turn if you performed a full attack action... an archer generally would not be able to full attack two turns in a row if you could not use a free action before or after a full-round action.

No one has said that you can't do this. All of the interpretations of the rules that are being presented allow for a free action to be taken during a full-round action and before or after any specific part of that full-round action.

I would guess that most players with archer PCs say "I'm going to full-attack" before they draw and knock an arrow, because most of them probably never say they are going to draw and knock an arrow. It's assumed to be part of each individual attack.

Well, another point of that argument is any limitation on the number of free actions to less than ~8 or so will severely hinder builds that need free actions to draw ammunition.

I agree, and I would never limit a free action to draw ammunition to fewer times in a round than a character has attacks, including swift attacks, haste, and any other way a character has that lets them gain another attack. If whatever it is can grant you an extra attack, it can grant you the free action necessary to make that attack, too.


Ferious Thune wrote:
I agree, and I would never limit a free action to draw ammunition to fewer times in a round than a character has attacks, including swift attacks, haste, and any other way a character has that lets them gain another attack. If whatever it is can grant you an extra attack, it can grant you the free action necessary to make that attack, too.

And you think changing grip takes more time and/or effort than drawing ammunition? Pretty sure the rules don't differentiate between types of free actions on that score.

Furthermore, here's the RAW:

Quote:
Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn.

So, are you interpreting that differently?

Scarab Sages

_Ozy_ wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:

Also...

Combat Rules wrote:
"Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
If you can't use a free action before firing an arrow as part of a full attack action... you must start the turn with an arrow in your hand to start a full attack action with a bow. As you would be unable to draw an arrow at the end of your last turn if you performed a full attack action... an archer generally would not be able to full attack two turns in a row if you could not use a free action before or after a full-round action.

No one has said that you can't do this. All of the interpretations of the rules that are being presented allow for a free action to be taken during a full-round action and before or after any specific part of that full-round action.

I would guess that most players with archer PCs say "I'm going to full-attack" before they draw and knock an arrow, because most of them probably never say they are going to draw and knock an arrow. It's assumed to be part of each individual attack.

Well, another point of that argument is any limitation on the number of free actions to less than ~8 or so will severely hinder builds that need free actions to draw ammunition.

It's worse than that for gun users. Every attack is 2 free actions. Draw ammo and reload.

Scarab Sages

_Ozy_ wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
I agree, and I would never limit a free action to draw ammunition to fewer times in a round than a character has attacks, including swift attacks, haste, and any other way a character has that lets them gain another attack. If whatever it is can grant you an extra attack, it can grant you the free action necessary to make that attack, too.

And you think changing grip takes more time and/or effort than drawing ammunition? Pretty sure the rules don't differentiate between types of free actions on that score.

Furthermore, here's the RAW:

Quote:
Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn.
So, are you interpreting that differently?

Not at all. I've never said you can't change your grip because there isn't enough time to do so.

I have said that it's possible that you are doing that inside of the larger full-round action and not outside.

The number of free round actions that you can take in a round has never entered into my part of the discussion. That is not what keeps you from two-handing a weapon during Spell Combat or TWF.


Cuttler wrote:


So as you can see the argument is, as written, the FRA tells you that is last the entire round (from 0 to 6). Therefore, you technically can't take an action before or after because it last the entire round. But it allows you to take Free and swift between individual actions Inside the FRA.

I still don't see the contradiction. A FRA may take the full 6 seconds... but "Free actions don't take any time at all." Whether there is time before or after to do the action is irrelevant. Free Actions don't take ANY of that 0-6 second count.


Ferious Thune wrote:

Not at all. I've never said you can't change your grip because there isn't enough time to do so.

I have said that it's possible that you are doing that inside of the larger full-round action and not outside.

The number of free round actions that you can take in a round has never entered into my part of the discussion. That is not what keeps you from two-handing a weapon during Spell Combat or TWF.

So, you agree that you can change your grip before or after a full-attack action without any issue?

Scarab Sages

_Ozy_ wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:

Not at all. I've never said you can't change your grip because there isn't enough time to do so.

I have said that it's possible that you are doing that inside of the larger full-round action and not outside.

The number of free round actions that you can take in a round has never entered into my part of the discussion. That is not what keeps you from two-handing a weapon during Spell Combat or TWF.

So, you agree that you can change your grip before or after a full-attack action without any issue?

Well, you are allowed to draw a second weapon during a full attack action and attack with it(with Quickdraw). As is described in the two weapon fighting FAQ. So why not a grip change before or after?

So long as you take all benefits and penalties for each attack as is declared by your current and past forms of combat during a turn then I do not see a problem.


Lorewalker wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:

Not at all. I've never said you can't change your grip because there isn't enough time to do so.

I have said that it's possible that you are doing that inside of the larger full-round action and not outside.

The number of free round actions that you can take in a round has never entered into my part of the discussion. That is not what keeps you from two-handing a weapon during Spell Combat or TWF.

So, you agree that you can change your grip before or after a full-attack action without any issue?

Well, you are allowed to draw a second weapon during a full attack action and attack with it(with Quickdraw). As is described in the two weapon fighting FAQ. So why not a grip change before or after?

So long as you take all benefits and penalties for each attack as is declared by your current and past forms of combat during a turn then I do not see a problem.

Well so long as you're not grip changing from 2 hand, pulling out a second weapon and then off handing I'm fine.

There is a difference between free actions and not having the hand free to use those actions.

Scarab Sages

Lorewalker wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:

Not at all. I've never said you can't change your grip because there isn't enough time to do so.

I have said that it's possible that you are doing that inside of the larger full-round action and not outside.

The number of free round actions that you can take in a round has never entered into my part of the discussion. That is not what keeps you from two-handing a weapon during Spell Combat or TWF.

So, you agree that you can change your grip before or after a full-attack action without any issue?

Well, you are allowed to draw a second weapon during a full attack action and attack with it(with Quickdraw). As is described in the two weapon fighting FAQ. So why not a grip change before or after?

So long as you take all benefits and penalties for each attack as is declared by your current and past forms of combat during a turn then I do not see a problem.

That last sentence is what we're trying to figure out. Does a swift action which grants an attack taken after you've finished all of the attacks that are part of the FRA "take all benefits and penalties for each attack as is declared by your current and past forms of combat during a turn." Does a free action which grants an attack?

_Ozy_ - to your question, I believe that you can change your grip after all of the attacks are over that are part of a full-round action. In that case, you are doing so after the attacks, but within the full-round action.

I do not know if you can change your grip after the full-round action has officially ended or not, because a possible reading of the rules is that the full-round action does not end until your turn ends. That doesn't stop you from changing your grip at the end (not after the end) of the FRA so that you can take a two-handed AoO. It would possibly stop you from making a two-handed swift attack in some instances, depending on the wording of the ability being used for the full-round action.


I'd certainly apply penalties for a free attack made during a round that applies penalties to all the other attacks. That just seems natural.


Lorewalker wrote:


So long as you take all benefits and penalties for each attack as is declared by your current and past forms of combat during a turn then I do not see a problem.

That is one of the issue under discussion, which people tend to skip over.

One of your opponents provokes an AoO from you while you are using TWF. Does your AoO take the TWF penalty? Does it matter which weapon you use for your AoO, that is, is the penalty higher if you use your offhand for the AoO?

Once we figure that out, we can move to swift action attacks.


My justification is that full and free actions are part of the full round action. Thus you can shout "Death from above" while firing your bow at the sniper you spotted.

I don't agree you can fit two 5 foot steps into a round. You are basically breaking up a move action and claiming it's two free actions.

Scarab Sages

Goth Guru wrote:

My justification is that full and free actions are part of the full round action. Thus you can shout "Death from above" while firing your bow at the sniper you spotted.

I don't agree you can fit two 5 foot steps into a round. You are basically breaking up a move action and claiming it's two free actions.

I don't think anyone has suggested two 5-foot steps in a round. They're just saying the 5-foot step can take place after the full-round action has ended. Which is actually explicitly stated in the rules, and it is the main thing in conflict with a full-round action takes the entire round.

The leap is going from a 5-foot step, which is "not an action," being allowed after a full-round action, to free and swift actions being allowed after a full-round action. I think sometimes people assume a 5-foot step is a free action. But it isn't. It falls under "not an action," so there is a very small, but possibly important distinction.


Sure. But once again. An action that takes no time can be performed before or after a full-round action, and yet you still have the entire round for the full round action.

It's why you can subtract 0 from 6 and still have 6.


I think the most important distinction is this:

Are penalties associated with a full-round action limited to the action itself, or the round it is used in.

Scarab Sages

_Ozy_ wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:


So long as you take all benefits and penalties for each attack as is declared by your current and past forms of combat during a turn then I do not see a problem.

That is one of the issue under discussion, which people tend to skip over.

One of your opponents provokes an AoO from you while you are using TWF. Does your AoO take the TWF penalty? Does it matter which weapon you use for your AoO, that is, is the penalty higher if you use your offhand for the AoO?

Once we figure that out, we can move to swift action attacks.

In the off chance that while you are mid full round attack using a TWFing style... you suffer no penalties. As this is interuptive and is a single attack outside of the normal attack progression. Thus would not suffer from any TWF penalties. As the attack is neither primary or offhand.

TWF wrote:

"An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn)."

Now, you would still apply penalties such as the one given by Power Attack. As those apply for all attacks during a duration instead of applying to primary and offhand attacks such as TWF penalties.

Scarab Sages

_Ozy_ wrote:

Sure. But once again. An action that takes no time can be performed before or after a full-round action, and yet you still have the entire round for the full round action.

It's why you can subtract 0 from 6 and still have 6.

Yes, but the amount of time is not the deciding factor. The type of action is. If there were a sentence that said you can take a 5-foot step, a free action, or a swift action before or after a full-round action, then there would not be an issue. But the sentence about free and swift actions only says, "You may also take free and swift actions." So it's up for interpretation by the GM.

@Johnny_Devo - Yes, that is the most important distinction and why I believed this was worth looking at. The obvious answer is well of course you can take free and swift actions before or after a full-round action, otherwise everything we know about the game breaks! But there are subtler things going on when that full-round action is more than just a full-attack.


I'm tempted to make that question into a formal FAQ thread (with references to the other relevant threads) for the sake of the PDT in case they want to take a look at it, but I don't know if this topic needs a 4th generation thread.

Scarab Sages

Johnny_Devo wrote:

I think the most important distinction is this:

Are penalties associated with a full-round action limited to the action itself, or the round it is used in.

Well, as for handedness issues, the FAQ on armor spikes makes it clear if you use a hand during an attack in a full attack action it can not be used with a different type of weapon. Basically, attacking locks you in.

FAQ wrote:

Armor Spikes: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my armor spikes in the same round I use a two-handed weapon?

No.
Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.

As for other penalties, we apply the penalties where the ability says we do. If the penalty says, "during TWF, take x penalties" then only during a time in which you attacking with multiple weapons and you gain an extra attack from the TWF rule do you take those penalties. It is not an entire round or beyond penalty. But it usually presents as such since we can't typically get an extra attack action beyond a full attack action. Power attack would apply penalties until your next turn. As does charging.

Scarab Sages

Johnny_Devo wrote:
I'm tempted to make that question into a formal FAQ thread (with references to the other relevant threads) for the sake of the PDT in case they want to take a look at it, but I don't know if this topic needs a 4th generation thread.

And I'm tempted to do the same for Spell Combat limiting wielding to 1 hand for the free attack from the spell, but I've held off for the same reason.


Lorewalker wrote:

In the off chance that while you are mid full round attack using a TWFing style... you suffer no penalties. As this is interuptive and is a single attack outside of the normal attack progression. Thus would not suffer from any TWF penalties. As the attack is neither primary or offhand.

TWF wrote:

"An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn)."

Now, you would still apply penalties such as the one given by Power Attack. As those apply for all attacks during a duration instead of applying to primary and offhand attacks such as TWF penalties.

Sounds good so far. It seems to indicate that the penalties are associated with the action itself, rather than whether the AoO occurs during the TWF or after your turn.

Now, what about swift action attacks? During the TWF, you power attack, corrnugon smash, and then use Hurtful to get a swift action melee attack. Does that swift action melee attack suffer from TWF fighting penalties, and if so, does it matter which hand you use?


It would matter which hand, to me, because the FAQ regarding it says AOO and other attacks outside your full attack turn are not penalized generally speaking. I think that it's the generally that should be focused on as it seems to indicate some exceptions will apply. Extra attacks would be those exceptions then.

So yes it would matter which hand, because certain hands may carry a different penalty based on weapon in the hand.

Scarab Sages

Cavall wrote:

It would matter which hand, to me, because the FAQ regarding it says AOO and other attacks outside your full attack turn are not penalized generally speaking. I think that it's the generally that should be focused on as it seems to indicate some exceptions will apply. Extra attacks would be those exceptions then.

So yes it would matter which hand, because certain hands may carry a different penalty based on weapon in the hand.

No TWF penalties apply to an attack if that attack is neither primary or offhand. As per the core rules and as per the clarification FAQ on TWF. An AoO is explicitly a single attack outside of the normal happenings of the turn. The AoO is not counted as part of the full attack action. Thus, could not possibly be a primary or offhand attack. Primary and offhand only exist during an action where you are gaining an extra attack due to TWFing. Thus, as AoOs are separate actions that interupt normal actions, you would not suffer TWF penalties as you are not currently TWFing.


Lorewalker wrote:
Cavall wrote:

It would matter which hand, to me, because the FAQ regarding it says AOO and other attacks outside your full attack turn are not penalized generally speaking. I think that it's the generally that should be focused on as it seems to indicate some exceptions will apply. Extra attacks would be those exceptions then.

So yes it would matter which hand, because certain hands may carry a different penalty based on weapon in the hand.

No TWF penalties apply to an attack if that attack is neither primary or offhand. As per the core rules and as per the clarification FAQ on TWF. An AoO is explicitly a single attack outside of the normal happenings of the turn. The AoO is not counted as part of the full attack action. Thus, could not possibly be a primary or offhand attack. Primary and offhand only exist during an action where you are gaining an extra attack due to TWFing. Thus, as AoOs are separate actions that interupt normal actions, you would not suffer TWF penalties as you are not currently TWFing.

With that in mind, how do you feel about:

Spell combat, make your attacks then cast shocking grasp, free action shift grip to two-handed, free attack deliver spell?

Scarab Sages

_Ozy_ wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:

In the off chance that while you are mid full round attack using a TWFing style... you suffer no penalties. As this is interuptive and is a single attack outside of the normal attack progression. Thus would not suffer from any TWF penalties. As the attack is neither primary or offhand.

TWF wrote:

"An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn)."

Now, you would still apply penalties such as the one given by Power Attack. As those apply for all attacks during a duration instead of applying to primary and offhand attacks such as TWF penalties.

Sounds good so far. It seems to indicate that the penalties are associated with the action itself, rather than whether the AoO occurs during the TWF or after your turn.

Now, what about swift action attacks? During the TWF, you power attack, corrnugon smash, and then use Hurtful to get a swift action melee attack. Does that swift action melee attack suffer from TWF fighting penalties, and if so, does it matter which hand you use?

FAQ wrote:

"Two-Weapon Fighting: If you use this on your turn to attack with two weapons, do you also take that penalty on attacks of opportunity made before the start of your next turn?

No. The penalties end as soon as you have completed the full-attack action that allowed you to attack with both weapons. Any attacks of opportunity you make are at your normal attack bonus.
Generally speaking, penalties on attacks made during your turn do not carry over to attacks of opportunity unless they specifically state otherwise (such as the penalty from using Power Attack or Combat Expertise).
This answer originally appeared in the 9/25/12 Paizo blog."

After the full attack action there are no penalties. This here is the issue at hand. Is your swift action before the end of the full-round action or not? Personally, I'd say you take the penalties. As the swift action is a reaction to something you did as part of an attack during a full-attack action.

But, this is a bit of a gray area. And one that I don't think the players can answer with text as given.

Scarab Sages

Johnny_Devo wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Cavall wrote:

It would matter which hand, to me, because the FAQ regarding it says AOO and other attacks outside your full attack turn are not penalized generally speaking. I think that it's the generally that should be focused on as it seems to indicate some exceptions will apply. Extra attacks would be those exceptions then.

So yes it would matter which hand, because certain hands may carry a different penalty based on weapon in the hand.

No TWF penalties apply to an attack if that attack is neither primary or offhand. As per the core rules and as per the clarification FAQ on TWF. An AoO is explicitly a single attack outside of the normal happenings of the turn. The AoO is not counted as part of the full attack action. Thus, could not possibly be a primary or offhand attack. Primary and offhand only exist during an action where you are gaining an extra attack due to TWFing. Thus, as AoOs are separate actions that interupt normal actions, you would not suffer TWF penalties as you are not currently TWFing.

With that in mind, how do you feel about:

Spell combat, make your attacks then cast shocking grasp, free action shift grip to two-handed, free attack deliver spell?

Magus wrote:
Spell Combat wrote:
"This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast."
"At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks."

The main issue here is that Spell Combat says your spell is an offhand weapon. Which runs you afoul of the armor-spikes faq which states that, basically, once a hand has been used with a weapon that turn it can not be used with another. I'm not a fan of this rule, but I think that is where it sits.


Lorewalker wrote:
After the full attack action there are no penalties. This here is the issue at hand. Is your swift action before the end of the full-round action or not? Personally, I'd say you take the penalties. As the swift action is a reaction to something you did as part of an attack during a full-attack action.

An AoO can also be a reaction, such as if you used Greater Trip. Personally, I think a swift action melee attack is outside of the TWF full action, no matter when you take it. It isn't governed by the rules of TWF because the melee attack is not part of the full-attack action, unlike extra attacks from, say, haste.

Scarab Sages

_Ozy_ wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
After the full attack action there are no penalties. This here is the issue at hand. Is your swift action before the end of the full-round action or not? Personally, I'd say you take the penalties. As the swift action is a reaction to something you did as part of an attack during a full-attack action.
An AoO can also be a reaction, such as if you used Greater Trip. Personally, I think a swift action melee attack is outside of the TWF full action, no matter when you take it. It isn't governed by the rules of TWF because the melee attack is not part of the full-attack action, unlike extra attacks from, say, haste.

Definitely arguable. The way I'd rule it is slightly different than how I'd say RAW leans towards. Which is closer to what you are saying near as I can tell. But I don't think that is RAI.

Grand Lodge

Johnny_Devo wrote:

With that in mind, how do you feel about:

Spell combat, make your attacks then cast shocking grasp, free action shift grip to two-handed, free attack deliver spell?

I don't understand your sequence. Casting the Shocking Grasp would normally be part of the Spell Combat, so why are you listing it after?

Is this a Quickened Shocking Grasp we're talking about that comes after the Spell Combat full attack?

Scarab Sages

Nathan Goodrich wrote:
Johnny_Devo wrote:

With that in mind, how do you feel about:

Spell combat, make your attacks then cast shocking grasp, free action shift grip to two-handed, free attack deliver spell?

I don't understand your sequence. Casting the Shocking Grasp would normally be part of the Spell Combat, so why are you listing it after?

Is this a Quickened Shocking Grasp we're talking about that comes after the Spell Combat full attack?

No. They're claiming the attack from a normal spell combat spell is not subject to the restriction that you wield a weapon in one hand during spell combat.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

He is separating the Free Action Attack from the spell from the casting, which is why this issue came up.

Guys, this overall discussion is not about changing the rules, but using them as intended. My only concern with the whole issue is how a spell is used during a full round action.

Let's take a look at all the things that require be done within a Full Round Action, shall we?

Core Rulebook page 187, under Full-Round Actions wrote:

Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your
base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus
in Chapter 3), because you fight with two weapons or a
double weapon, or for some special
reason, you must use
a full-round action to get your additional
attacks.
- ... -

Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack: After
your first attack, you can decide to take a move action
instead of making your remaining attacks, depending
on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have
not already taken a move action this round. If you’ve
already taken a 5-foot step, you can’t use your move action
to move any distance, but you could still use a different
kind of move action.

Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action: You can
choose to fight defensively when taking a full-attack action.
If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to
gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.

Cast a Spell
A spell that takes one round to cast is a full-round action.
It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn
in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act
normally after the spell is completed.
- ... -

Casting a Metamagic Spell: Sorcerers and bards must
take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by
a metamagic feat) than a regular spell. If a spell’s normal
casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic
version of the spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or
bard (except for spells modified by the Quicken Spell feat,
which take 1 swift action to cast). Note that this isn’t the
same as a spell with a 1-round casting time. Spells that take
a full-round action to cast take effect in the same round that
you begin casting, and you are not required to continue the
invocations, gestures, and concentration until your next
turn. For spells with a longer casting time, it takes an extra
full-round action to cast the metamagic spell.

- ... -

Move 5 Feet through Difficult Terrain
In some situations, your movement may be so hampered
that you don’t have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (a
single square). In such a case, you may spend a full-round
action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even
diagonally. Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it’s
not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally.

Now, the question has been can I use Free Actions and Swift Actions before or after a Full-Round Action. Most times, when we perceive ourselves doing this, we are actually taking them before or after a Full Attack, which is within the Full-Round Action.

You can even drop out of a declared Full-Round Action after the first attack if the situation changes, such as dropping the target. (Would this be considered a Free Action?)

I also related the spell actions here, though the question about the Free Action Attack is/should be covered in the passages above.

Is there any place here or elsewhere that says that the Free Actions or Swift Actions can be done outside of the Full-Round Action? I don't see it.


Lorewalker wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
After the full attack action there are no penalties. This here is the issue at hand. Is your swift action before the end of the full-round action or not? Personally, I'd say you take the penalties. As the swift action is a reaction to something you did as part of an attack during a full-attack action.
An AoO can also be a reaction, such as if you used Greater Trip. Personally, I think a swift action melee attack is outside of the TWF full action, no matter when you take it. It isn't governed by the rules of TWF because the melee attack is not part of the full-attack action, unlike extra attacks from, say, haste.
Definitely arguable. The way I'd rule it is slightly different than how I'd say RAW leans towards. Which is closer to what you are saying near as I can tell. But I don't think that is RAI.

Given the TWF FAQ, it might be RAI, but the wording is a bit inconsistent.


Nathan Goodrich wrote:
Johnny_Devo wrote:

With that in mind, how do you feel about:

Spell combat, make your attacks then cast shocking grasp, free action shift grip to two-handed, free attack deliver spell?

I don't understand your sequence. Casting the Shocking Grasp would normally be part of the Spell Combat, so why are you listing it after?

Is this a Quickened Shocking Grasp we're talking about that comes after the Spell Combat full attack?

Unlike ranged touch spells, melee touch spells have specific rules that grant you a free action attack that is separate from the action to cast the spell. That's one of the topics of discussion.

The quickened spell is a related topic that illustrates that a swift/free action can be taken before or after a full round action. So, can one use the free action attack from the Spell Combat spell 'after' the full round action.

If not, why not? If so, is it subject to the 'free hand' limitation. We already know it is governed by the -2 penalty because that is explicitly called out in Spell Combat.

There are other examples of similar mechanics: TWF + Greater Trip, TWF + Corrnugon Smash + Hurtful, etc...

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I think if you use Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp in reaction, it might still be under the penalty, as it is the character causing the situation. He would suffer the penalty when performing the maneuver, at the very least.


Sooo, you can't cast, say, an Intensified Shocking Grasp, and deliver the spell within the same round of casting, because you're spending that entire turn casting the spell, and you can't deliver the spell until you finish casting.

Similarly, Ranged Touch Spells that make attacks don't take place until the casting of the spell is complete, so if an Empowered Enervation spell is cast, the attack roll for it doesn't take place until the following round, at the start of your next turn, because the spell is still casting for the entirety of your turn.

Hell, this would also mean that any spell you cast during Spell Combat doesn't take place until the next turn, since that too is a Full Round Action.

Congratulations, you just broke Spell Combat. (Or maybe it was already broken and you simply pointed it out.)


Nathan Goodrich wrote:
Johnny_Devo wrote:

With that in mind, how do you feel about:

Spell combat, make your attacks then cast shocking grasp, free action shift grip to two-handed, free attack deliver spell?

I don't understand your sequence. Casting the Shocking Grasp would normally be part of the Spell Combat, so why are you listing it after?

Is this a Quickened Shocking Grasp we're talking about that comes after the Spell Combat full attack?

Ah, I typed it out poorly. "make your attacks then cast shocking grasp" is supposed to be part of spell combat by my example. I just wanted to stress that spell combat offers you the option to make your attacks and cast the spell in any order, and in this example the magus elects to make the full attack, then cast shocking grasp.

Quote:
Sooo, you can't cast, say, an Intensified Shocking Grasp, and deliver the spell within the same round of casting, because you're spending that entire turn casting the spell, and you can't deliver the spell until you finish casting.

This is actually a very good point. A sorcerer's intensified shocking grasp is broken by the same thing that would prevent you from two-handing the free action attack of a shocking grasp cast during spell combat.

1) Spell combat and spontaneous metamagic both take a full round
2) Assuming the sorcerer is holding a weapon, both take up the only free hand the caster has
3) Assuming that even if you can separate the free action from the parent full-round action and it would still suffer the limitations of the parent action, then the sorcerer has both hands occupied for the entirety of the full-round action and thus no hands available to make the free attack.

In fact, now that I think about it, how can a magus even deliver the spell with spellstrike in the first place? isn't his main-hand occupied by the full-attack the whole time?

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