So all it takes is one rank to totally learn to read and write a completely new language? Looks like I've been doing this wrong, and the bard in my group should be able to speak about 14 additional languages now.
PERSONALLY, I think each language should have its own score. This would of course limit the number of languages a character might know but make it much more realistic when it comes to learning a new language than "Hey, I busted a level! I can speak Aklo now! It won't do me any good, but hey, I can speak it!".
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Yeah, it just takes a rank. Just likes it only takes +2 Int to learn one.
If it didn't, the skill would be basically completely worthless.
Maybe so, but I can't find a peg big enough to suspend my disbelief. I may have to house rule this to make it more realistic. But I won't until the next campaign starts, if I do. Now I have to have a sit down with the Bard and everyone else in the game with Linguistics ranks.
I should've posted this in the "Air Your Grievances" thread. I am aggravated by this.
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That's much more realistic to be sure, but linguistics already has a usefulness problem as it is in a world where Comprehend Languages and Tongues exist.
Hell, linguistics has a usefulness problem in a world where Common exists.
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some races and stuff are able to get two languages per rank.
I hear the idea is that you've been training and practicing the previous level and the rank shows that you've finally learned the language.
I don't use a world wide Common language and never have. Certain closely linked countries might share a common language, or at least be close enough to be understood by a non speaker, but not a campaign wide one. I can handle 10 ton flying fire breathing reptiles easier than I can that. So I guess Linguistics will get more use than before as I can open up more languages for the players to learn.
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Maybe so, but I can't find a peg big enough to suspend my disbelief.
Other skills are similarly b&!!~+$*, it's just a matter of their modifiers rather than single ranks. Is it any less believable that someone can be assumed to learn a language in their spare time between levels (or for that matter earn how to cast spells...) than someone with a good enough Perception can hear a rat fart 200 feet away in a thunderstorm?
some races and stuff are able to get two languages per rank.
I hear the idea is that you've been training and practicing the previous level and the rank shows that you've finally learned the language.
Yeah, I get that, but when you're adventuring and rescuing princesses, fighting monstrosities, bandits, and evil kings when do you have time for language courses? Aagggh!
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Yeah, I get that, but when you're adventuring and rescuing princesses, fighting monstrosities, bandits, and evil kings when do you have time for language courses? Aagggh!some races and stuff are able to get two languages per rank.
I hear the idea is that you've been training and practicing the previous level and the rank shows that you've finally learned the language.
In your downtime before you sleep or go off to adventure each morining. The average adventuring day is assumed to be around 8 hours, and you sleep for 8 hours (less with a Ring of Sustenance or certain abilities). That leaves you between 8 and 14 hours to fit in stuff like language training from that book you picked up back in town (easily folded into the "Living expenses" rules so you don't even need to deduct money from the player), or learned how to that sweet new move with your sword where you stun people with every hit, or how to create new demiplanes with a thought and a bit of pocket change.
Even if you're traveling all day for weeks there are rules for doing stuff like crafting and retraining on the way, stuff like this takes place during the same timeframe.
sigh...yeah, I guess so.
My first character, a Fighter with rolled stats, had an abundance of skill ranks every level. Picking up a few extra languages let me parley with the dragon at the end of the campaign long enough to provide a distracted for the dwarf who suplexed it into the ground.
You can also use the retraining rules to pick up 1+Int extra languages without spending skill ranks in Linguistics. It's 20 days a language, but could be worth it if you have massive amounts of downtime, or start at a later level.
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Yeah, I get that, but when you're adventuring and rescuing princesses, fighting monstrosities, bandits, and evil kings when do you have time for language courses? Aagggh!
The same times you learn about the 20 different outsider types (Knowledge Planes), hundreds of aberrations (Knowledge Dungeoneering), weapons and armor (multiclass proficiencies), spells (2 scribed spells per level), and so much more.
Pathfinder is not realistic.
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sigh...yeah, I guess so.
If it really bothers you, have a player exposit a bit about the training eh went through after the fact any time they multiclass or take a new Feat or skill rank.
Yeah, I get that, but some things... just some things, kinda rankle me. This Linguistics thing is giving me a headache now that I've found out I've been doing it wrong for so long. And the guy playing the Bard has a genius level IQ but is dense as lead when it comes to explaining changes in rules to him. I don't look forward to this. And now I've got to come up with languages for different regions in my homebrew. And I have a cake in the oven. And my dog needs to go pee. And...and..and... (brain explodes)
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So all it takes is one rank to totally learn to read and write a completely new language? Looks like I've been doing this wrong, and the bard in my group should be able to speak about 14 additional languages now.
Paul Robeson, from my alma mater of Rutgers, who in my mind approximated the best contemporary example of a real world bard, was an exemplary football player, accomplished theatrical actor, and orator, is known for speaking 25 languages... fluently.
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Yeah, I get that, but some things... just some things, kinda rankle me. This Linguistics thing is giving me a headache now that I've found out I've been doing it wrong for so long. And the guy playing the Bard has a genius level IQ but is dense as lead when it comes to explaining changes in rules to him. I don't look forward to this. And now I've got to come up with languages for different regions in my homebrew. And I have a cake in the oven. And my dog needs to go pee. And...and..and... (brain explodes)
Here, let me prioritize for ya. =)
1.) Take the dog to go pee, ain't nobody need a wet carpet.
2.) Chill.
3.) Take the cake from the oven and do all the frosting and whatnot.
4.) Come up with the languages.
5.) Tell the guy to pick 14 more languages from the list you made that he wishes his Bard knew. Tell him to do it and don't ask why. Once he's done that and everything that needs to be done is done, explain why. This way at least even if he doesn't get it somehow it doesn't affect his character.
That seems to work from my perspective.
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I have occasionally had some fun with Pathfinder's absurd language rules. Two examples:
1) My Summoner learned Celestial when he leveled up. When he summoned his eidolon the next morning, she realized that she had learned a new language. She glared at my Summoner and said -- "I see that we just learned a new language. Who have you been summoning for that purpose?" He had in fact been using his leftover Summon Monster SLAs each evening to summon an Azata for language lessons.
2) My current character (an Aasimar with the ability to learn two languages per Linguistics rank) had earned enough XP to gain a level. Per our house rules, however, she needed a night's sleep to actually gain that level. At one point, the GM asked if anyone in the party spoke Osiriani. I replied no, but I will be able to do so tomorrow (since that was one of the languages that I was planning to pick up with a Linguistics rank).
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The same times you learn about the 20 different outsider types (Knowledge Planes), hundreds of aberrations (Knowledge Dungeoneering), weapons and armor (multiclass proficiencies), spells (2 scribed spells per level), and so much more.
Knowledge Planes isn't so unrealistic - a PC with 24 Int and a bunch of skill ranks probably still knows less about demons than the average player who's read the bestiaries.
I dunno. I really don't have a good answer. But something about the Linguistics skill is just bugging me. Can't put a finger on it, exactly.
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Though you're correct, it's really not a big deal. Tabletop games arent a perfect real-life simulator. If you have a sub-system for everything the game gets far too convoluted to the point it's no longer fun to play.
Your character speaks 14 languages for the cost of 14 points?
That's cute. I cast tongues.
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I dunno. I really don't have a good answer. But something about the Linguistics skill is just bugging me. Can't put a finger on it, exactly.
You seem to be more of a simulationist gamer is why. You like things to be internally consistent, and "as reality unless stated", and are probably way into the narrative too, though this is less of an issue since you can narratively justify all of this as happening off-screen.
Skills are, on the face, one of the most realistic parts of the game, being non-magical in every way and very limited in what they can do. Likewise, most skills give very passive or reactive benefits (Perception, Sense Motive, Knowledge, Appraise, etc.) with the active ones being almost frustratingly mundane in their utility or at best something that is impossible IRL but wouldn't be out of place in an action movie, so it gets a pass on being "realistic ENOUGH" (Climb, Swim, Acrobatics).
The four most commonly complained about skills break this in one way or another.
Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Linguistics are all considered problematic by some for much the same reason: They are the most overtly "gamist" of all the skills.
The former three basically turn you into a Jedi, being able to convince people of any lie you want or coerce them into taking any action you want them to take (and Intimidate directly manipulating emotions by forcing someone to be afraid of you, so much they can't fight or think properly).
Linguistics, seemingly, allows you to pull a whole knowledge base out of your ass in a matter of seconds when you level up, completely breaking immersion without a determined effort to justify it backwards.
Me personally, I could give a s~#~ about the simulationist aspects of this game like how skills work and the economy, so I'm fine.
You want things to make a bit more sense that way, and for better or worse the game makes a VERY poor simulation of any kind of reality. On the surface it seems fine, but the deeper you dig the less things make sense.
Did you know the hide of a Collossal dragon, which is a minimum of 64 feet long and who knows how tall and wide (though at least 30 feet)only has enough material to make a single full set of armor...regardless of the size of the person you're making it for? You could make a single suit of Full Plate (and a shield) for a Pixie and the material would all be used up by the rules.
Yeah, I have simulationist traits, that's for sure. I guess it comes from my old school gaming upbringing, where we didn't consider these sorts of things at all but now I do (I can't work anymore so I have tons of useless time on my hands and this popped into my brain today). And yeah, that colossal dragon hide thing? Not happening.
That's actually pretty similar to how I've been doing it all along. I thought it was just the right way to do it... lol That's what I get for thinking, I suppose.
Thanks!
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Make it too hard to learn languages with Linguistics and people won't bother. See: Comprehend Languages, Tongues.
If you want it a little more realistic, ideas:
1) Separating languages and alphabets. If you want to read a language you can speak, you need to learn its alphabet separately.
1b) Some languages should use the same alphabet depending on worldbuilding. (ex: for Golarion, Gnome might use the Sylvan alphabet - in other settings, the Dwarven alphabet). If you know the alphabet but not the language a text is written in you can sound it out to someone who knows the language but not the alphabet.
2) Require a PC specify which language they are learning at least a level before putting the rank in it. To compensate for this and increase realism, allow the PC to communicate basic concepts in a language they have declared they are learning after earning half the XP to gain the level.
3) Specify that some languages are close enough that speakers of the two can communicate simple concepts, requiring a Linguistics check. This works well for languages associated with neighboring regions (eg Spanish and Portuguese) or even dialects (I've got three elvish dialects which are mostly interchangeable but using the right/wrong one can apply modifiers to social skills).
I actually go the opposite way on this - in my games, each new rank gives your number of ranks in additional languages. So rank 1 gives you 1 additional language, rank 2 gives you two more, and so on.
My only problem with this is that PCs are likely to run out of languages.
Of course, if you use this together with adding a bunch of regional languages and dialects, and perhaps learning alphabets separately, then it could work very well and really reward high investment in the skill.
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I get ya Cal. I have a difficult time learning languages in real life (I easily learn programming languages or other technical crap) but my current Witch in a RotRL campaign is fully leveled with Linguistics.
The GM just assumes that if I meet something that speaks, I know its language.
In my world, I made various rules to reflect trying to speak to people from different countries and the rules just made things tedious. I might need to revisit those rules since it has been a decade since I made them.
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Languages are great but linguistics is for forging official documents and reading the fine print on deals with devils.
I just want to put this out there though. The world record for most spoken languages is 58 IRL. Mid teens is not even that uncommon. It might be unusual but its really not unheard of for people to just be really good at languages and pick them up easily.
I think given that spells make everything intelligible, you might as well let the linguist of the party speak a dozen different languages. I fondly remember in Reign of Winter my character RPing trying to find languages in common with NPCs so that he could learn Triaxian and Russian.
I often will just drop ranks in linguistics so I can speak a weird language, just in case the GM will throw in a situation where "speaking Aboleth is handy" so I can talk about how my character managed to pick up Aboleth.
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Linguistics is one of those things that RPG have problems balancing and keeping players happy.
Languages are too simple to learn in Pathfinder/D&D 3+, as well as some scifi RPGs. In GURPs, it takes points, so characters can become interpreters with a reasonable amount of "effort". In White Wolf, you learned a language per skill dot, and it became harder to purchase said skill the more you had. The problem? You couldn't buy more than 5 dots, and there are a number of people in the world that speak more than five languages. It was joked that only NPC, "low generation" vampires could be a UN interpreter.
There is an alternate D&D 3rd party setting that made languages a subskill of linguistics (1 point, basic spoken phrases; 2 points conversation and children's reading level; 3 points fluency; 4 points professional study of that language).
Maybe so, but I can't find a peg big enough to suspend my disbelief. I may have to house rule this to make it more realistic. But I won't until the next campaign starts, if I do. Now I have to have a sit down with the Bard and everyone else in the game with Linguistics ranks.
I should've posted this in the "Air Your Grievances" thread. I am aggravated by this.
I was turning over something like this in my head in the past week because I feel the same way. My idea was: Each language that a character gains through whatever means counts as speaking it or reading it, but not both. Probably, you would speak a language before you learn to read it, but if a player just justify learning to read it without speaking it then you should allow it. This would count for your starting racial languages, bonus languages for high Intelliegence, and those from ranks in Linguistics. A tengu's racial ability would probably allow it to speak two different languages (based on a crow's ability to mimic sounds), but you can go with speak & read if you prefer.
Allow characters that speaks a language to make Linguistics checks in order to read it, but require that it take some time and the possibility for varying degrees of comprehension. You might want to expand the number of classes that gain Linguistics as a class skill. Or not, it depends on how far you want to take this.
In earlier editions of the game, literacy was much harder to come by. This house rule is not nearly as difficult, but does require a small investment of skill ranks.
If you want to bump up the difficulty with magical means to understand languages, increase the spell level of comprehend languages and tongues by +1.
What would make lanaguage a much larger factor in the RPGs is if not every playable race automatically the spoke the common tongue. Alternately, only PCs gain both racial tongues. This would mean that most elves, dwarves, etc spoke their racial tongue, but not common. Some would be fluent, but it would depend on how they choose to choose to allocatate their learning.
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If Linguistics bothers you, wait until you stop to think about Knowledge (Local).
Go on... think about it.
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Something to note: Each skill rank represents a huge amount of learning effort. First level characters with any PC class (and arguably at least most NPC classes) are superhuman and continue growing moreso as they gain levels.
So yes, every single skill rank in linguistics gives you a new language known as a bonus. That's a huge thing, but so is every single other skill.
If you want realistic you'd need to drop everyone down below first level, never let them get beyond it, and require dedicated effort to not decay even further below first level.
A reasonable houserule to use is that people cannot level up without several weeks/months of downtime that they spend in dedicated training.
Something that can be really annoying about this kind of attitude: It focuses almost exclusively on nerfing skill-focused and "mundane" characters and thus widening the gap between them and the more fantastic classes. I wouldn't be surprised if enough of this attitude pushed everyone into being a supernatural-type class so that they can play awesome characters rather than ones arbitrarily restricted to what our-world humans can achieve and maybe a bit beyond.
If Linguistics bothers you, wait until you stop to think about Knowledge (Local).
Go on... think about it.
Knowledge(Local) is one I drop completely if the campaign is going to involve a lot of traveling from place to place. If it's a knowledge check about "something in a place you've not been before" it's going to be Knowledge (History) or Knowledge (Geography).
If Linguistics bothers you, wait until you stop to think about Knowledge (Local).
Go on... think about it.
Oh, I have. And this one I put my foot down on. "Local" means the city or area surrounding it that the PC comes from. They want more local knowledge they gotta move to a new place.
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I'll suggest a homebrew alternative for you, DungeonmasterCal: it's how Linguistics work in my post-apocalyptic Earth campaign. It involves more paperwork and more tracking of in-game time, but has the advantage of not being level-related. (Learning Osirian is not just a matter of punching 10,000 goblins anywhere on Golarion.) Alter it based on your own needs.
Levels of Fluency
Level 1: You can only use and understand one-word sentences.
Level 2: You can use and understand three-word sentences in the present tense.
Level 3: You still have a three-word limit, but articles ('the', 'an', 'my') don't count toward the three-word limit, and you can use past-tense verbs.
Level 4: You can use and understand five-word sentences: articles and conjunctions ('and' and 'but') don't count toward the limit. You can use any verb tense, but you can't use or understand simile or metaphor.
Level 5: Your speech is accented and sometimes halting. You are unrestricted in daily speech, but can't use or understand metaphors or advanced technical terms.
Level 6: Unrestricted fluency.A PC untrained in Linguistics who encounters a regional language can make a Linguistics check. On 10 or more, he has Level 1 fluency. One trained in Linguistics can make a similar check, gaining Level 1 fluency on a 10 or more - or Level 2 on a 20 or more. Continued daily exposure to that language allows another Linguistics check (DC 20) in 1 day, then 1 week, then 1 month, then every 3 months afterward. Each success grants a level of fluency.
You can apply the usual +2/-2 modifier for languages you feel are particularly similar/dissimilar to the PCs' native language.
Could you imagine if you had to go through this ridiculous process every time you took a rank in Acrobatics or something? It makes the skill functionally unusable.
Making Local confined to a single location is extremely problematic as well. It assumes that someone knowing anything about any place they've never been is somehow impossible.
Are there no tinkers, traveling merchants, or old storytellers in your universe? No travel guidebooks?
It makes no sense from ANY type of game point of view. That narrow focus is what the Lore Background Skill was invented for.
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I recall seeing in the Snow White adventure put out by Adventure-A-Week (AAW) where they discuss the disconnect with how languages are treated in Pathfinder and other rpgs - you either know it or you don't.
For many people, that's a rather odd perspective to handling languages in game since our personal experiences can include people who not only speak fluently more than one language, but they are also capable of a few phrases in other languages.
For example, I can speak fluently in one language, close to fluently in a second language, enough of a third language to cover basic traveling needs like ordering food from a menu or asking for directions, and I can comfortably and accurately swear in about 4 other languages (lol). That last part is probably more common with the increase in globalization, popular media (films and music are the most common way of being introduced to new languages, but even literature such as comic books and manga provided readers with their first forays into a foreign language), and casual interaction with other people who happen to know additional languages too.
Anyways, back to the topic at hand. In the Snow White adventure, AAW suggests essentially different stages of comprehension and vocabulary. I think you still only have to spend 1 skill rank per language, but instead of automatically knowing how to speak the new language fluently like a native speaker, your skill in that language simply improves over time as you practice speaking and reading in that language. The different vocabulary levels they suggest are Receptive, Early, Emerging, Intermediate, and Fluent.
If I recall correctly, they based those stages on real-world studies and accepted recognition of language comprehension/skill level. Again, those were ideas they suggested, not a hard and fast rule (since people's perception of skill level in regards to reading and speaking a language can often vary between individuals of the same community, let alone between individuals across continental gaps).
Hopes that helps somewhat as food for thought.
Cheers!
CB out
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English-speakers, in the main, are the ones who seem to regard language as "difficult." I have friends who can speak English, Gwich'in, Koyukon, Ahtna (those middle three are related, of course), French, and Russian. To them, it's not a big deal, while to me, it's frickin' amazing.
When one considers that language is often handwaved in published material-"Oh, everyone here speaks Common"- being a magnificent polyglot isn't that big a deal. In a world where people can learn how to warp reality through arcane magic (remember kids, Sorcerers are the ones who require inborn talent, wizardry is all down to study!) linguistic advancement seems a strange place to draw a line in the sand.
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Languages are great but linguistics is for forging official documents and reading the fine print on deals with devils.
Nah, that is what Profession (Barrister) is for :D
English-speakers, in the main, are the ones who seem to regard language as "difficult." I have friends who can speak English, Gwich'in, Koyukon, Ahtna (those middle three are related, of course), French, and Russian. To them, it's not a big deal, while to me, it's frickin' amazing.
I think that is because English is language that doesn't have phonetic spelling so you guys keep getting confused how words in other languages are pronounced based on how they are spelled .-. Like, people whose native language has phonetic spelling seem to have much easier time learning other languages in my experience
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English is harder because, since everyone else learns English, we don't have to learn other languages.
English is harder because, since everyone else learns English, we don't have to learn other languages.
Certainly gels with my experience in the Netherlands.
I'd start trying out some abysmal,guidebook Dutch, only to be interrupted in superb English...