Oath of the People's Council banned?


Pathfinder Society


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I am just curious about the banning forOath of the People for PFS settings. I was just curious if there was a reason for its banning? Other then making a Paladin 2/Cavalier 3 into Battle Hareld, or being an obvious upgrade to the lackluster Martyr Paladin, is there a reason for its banning?

I just want to know the fluff or crunch reason for this archetype banning. Normally I don't ask why, but this time I really would like to know...

1/5

I feel a recent trend is banning everything that might be an "upgrade" to something we already have. Thus this would be banned because it's "an upgrade" over martyr and since the martyr was first, ban this newer one.


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While I agree with Chess Pwn they prolly don't want full BAB with Inspire Courage. Whether or not it would be OP in any circumstances no idea.

3/5 **** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

Alex Mack wrote:
While I agree with Chess Pwn they prolly don't want full BAB with Inspire Courage. Whether or not it would be OP in any circumstances no idea.

Its less that and more a straight upgrade to a bard and skald in a lot of ways.

1/5

there's already the legal martyr and exemplar brawler. So full bab with inspire courage doesn't seem to be the stopping reason, especially because martyr was fairly recently made legal.

Bard/skald get good support spellcasting, which the martyr and oath don't.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

When a player option (archetype, equipment, feat, etc.) is not allowed in PFS it is generally for one of four reasons. Sometimes it's multiple reasons

1. It is being held back as a special treat and will appear as a unique reward on a chronicle later.
2. The mechanics are confusing or conflict with established rules. It will be allowed once errata is available (either in a published book or the Campaign Clarifications document).
3. The material is not a good fit for either the Pathfinder Society or for the structure of Organized Play (such as evil archetypes or feats that allow you to betray your allies).
4. The material is too powerful in relation to existing material.

The fourth reason is by far the most debatable and most contentious. In a large part "too powerful" is in the eye of the beholder. Unless the new material gives added advantages but otherwise is exactly identical to something previously published it is not possible to make strict comparisons. Even then there is a sizable contingent of messageboard posters who do not consider any Paizo-published material "too powerful."

In the specific case of Oath of the People's Council assuming it isn't for reason 1 (a reward for a scenario centered around uncovering corruption in Andor), it's probably reason 4. So here's my attempt to parse the archetype using comparisons for normal (1-11) PFS play:

Spoiler:
The easiest comparison is the Martyr paladin archetype. Both trade out smite evil for bardic performance. The People's Council gets one more daily round of performance per level, does not take damage when performing and gets the inspire competence, fascinate, suggestion, and dirge of doom abilities. The Martyr gets countersong, distraction, and inspire greatness. In addition the Oathbound gets one more spell per day per spell level (the oath spells).

It's worth comparing to other non-bard archetypes that get performance as well. The evangelist cleric gives up a domain and 3 increments of channel energy for a limited array of performances. The sensei monk gives up flurry of blows, fast movement, and improved evasion for just three bardic performances. The Oath of the People's Council archetype only gives up smite evil but gets the performances at later levels than those archetypes. And gets those Oath spells.

Personally I think the Oath of the People's Council is a little overpowered compared to other class archetypes that get bardic performance. However compared to the Martyr Paladin it is significantly more powerful. As was pointed out above, the fact that the Martyr came first probably hurts the Oathbound's chances at legality. It's also worth pointing out that it is quite possible that the writer of the Oath of the People's Council did not know that the Martyr existed when creating the archetype. Given publication schedules Divine Anthology was probably already sent to the printer when Horror Adventures was released.

1/5

my issue is that the martyr has awesome stuff for it in that it's AOE personal bard buffs, and other buffs. It's all about the ranged AoE buffs it's providing just for being there. hence why it gives up divine grace.
I see martyr as more of a full-bab reduced casting bard than a paladin.

While oath keeps most of it's paladin abilities, thus to me it's a singing paladin, and not a full bab bard.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Kevin Willis wrote:
The material is too powerful in relation to existing material

I'd gladly see Martyr banned in order to get Oath of the People's Council. Martyr is a slap in the face to anyone who wants a proper Bardadin, and OotPC is a legitimately good sidegrade.


The problem with Belafon's main point in the argument is that Oath of Vengence and Tortured Crusader fall in the exact same catagory, but OoV is not banned, while OotPC is. Im going to agree with Disk Elemental here, and say this feels like a huge slap in the face for someone who likes playing purely supportive and buff based character. Especially one without relaying on spells.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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TheMonkeyFish wrote:
The problem with Belafon's main point in the argument is that Oath of Vengence and Tortured Crusader fall in the exact same catagory, but OoV is not banned, while OotPC is. Im going to agree with Disk Elemental here, and say this feels like a huge slap in the face for someone who likes playing purely non-magical support.

It's less about power levels and more ability to steal someone elses spotlight. Oath of vengence is a straight power upgrade... into smiting evil in the face. Smiting evil in the face is a paladins job so a paladin doing that... not so bad.

An upgrade from the bard to a full BAB bard is a much bigger deal, even if it comes with downsides.

The paladin doing the paladins job better= no big deal

The paladin doing the bards job better= problem.

1/5

The issue is that the exemplar brawler and the martyr both have full bab and inspire courage.

And just having inspire courage and full bab doesn't make the paladin a better bard. 1) it's now more painful to miss out on a full attack. 2) You don't have good spells worth casting with your standard when you move action inspire. 3) you don't have good support spells or skills.

I agree it's a pretty fun archetype for those that want a supportive character that has more martial bent, but it's not crowding out anyone's niche.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

TheMonkeyFish wrote:
The problem with Belafon's main point in the argument is that Oath of Vengence and Tortured Crusader fall in the exact same catagory, but OoV is not banned, while OotPC is. Im going to agree with Disk Elemental here, and say this feels like a huge slap in the face for someone who likes playing purely supportive and buff based character. Especially one without relaying on spells.

I'm not sure what you think my "main point" is, but I have no idea how Oath of Vengeance plays into it.

If you want to call out one thing, my main point is bolded below:

Quote:

4. The material is too powerful in relation to existing material.

The fourth reason is by far the most debatable and most contentious. In a large part "too powerful" is in the eye of the beholder.

Everything past that is just an opinion of how I personally judge the various non-bard archetypes that gain bardic performance.

Spoiler:
I didn't even attempt to compare archetypes to a bard. They play completely differently. I put a big premium on the bard's spellcasting abilities and - especially - massive skill bonuses. Someone who doesn't care about the "role-playing stuff" and only looks at "combat effectiveness" is going to have a vastly different opinion from mine.

3/5 **** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

BigNorseWolf wrote:
TheMonkeyFish wrote:
The problem with Belafon's main point in the argument is that Oath of Vengence and Tortured Crusader fall in the exact same catagory, but OoV is not banned, while OotPC is. Im going to agree with Disk Elemental here, and say this feels like a huge slap in the face for someone who likes playing purely non-magical support.

It's less about power levels and more ability to steal someone elses spotlight. Oath of vengence is a straight power upgrade... into smiting evil in the face. Smiting evil in the face is a paladins job so a paladin doing that... not so bad.

An upgrade from the bard to a full BAB bard is a much bigger deal, even if it comes with downsides.

The paladin doing the paladins job better= no big deal

The paladin doing the bards job better= problem.

The Problem with this is Bardic Performance is kind of a mediocre ability without the rest of the rest of the gimmicks the Bard has.


@ Belafon - Sorry, I did not mean to breed any confusion or misunderstanding between us. My statement was meant to say why that form of thinking is hurtful for future releases to the game. Saying that "Because A was released before B, but A was a rather poor archetype all around while B actually makes some sense, ban B because A was here first" kind of hurts the release of these types of things.

For example, one of the key features for Tormented Crusader was the extra smite and 1/day instant healing self. That being said, because of what abilities tormented crusader traded away for his gimmick, its power level dropped considerably. If Oath of Vengeance was released after Tormented Crusader, it's a good chance it would have been banned for being "The clearly better option" when giving options. Perhaps I'm putting to much emphasis on your "rule 4", but it just feels like backwards thinking limiting oneself to previous material when some of that previous material had questionable viability to begin with.

Another big problem was I was on my phone and posting a quicky during my 10 minute break at work, lol. I hadn't seen your spoilers. And while I do admit that it's stronger than the other forms of Bardic Performance, you're giving up a scaling bonus for yourself, and splitting it evenly between multiple people. (Its most common form).

The problem with Archetypes like Tormented Crusader and Martyr Paladins are the fact that they are extremely over bloated for what they give, these two examples trading out 12 Abilities and 7 abilities respectively. And while none of these abilities are outright horrible (save for See No Evil Hear No Evil and when abilities are removed without any substitution at all), the fact they removed all synergy of class abilities and they had no real substitute to replace them.

I don't mind when there is flavor in options and builds, heck I might even make a Martyr Paladin with all other options removed just for the sake of flavor, but banning something because another version is lackluster mechanically just because it was released after and not before the "flavorful" choice, it feels like a slap in the face.

The problem right now is the overcentralization of the Support Paladin. Offensive Paladins have a great number of choices that they can use in order to bolster themselves and slap evil in the face, but Support-ish Paladins are limited to Warrior of the Holy Light with another archetype then slapping people with a big stick while life-linking damage away from the group.

Sorry, my rant is over. I just wish there was another option other than Martyr or Warrior of the Holy Light...

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

@TheMonkeyFish: I can't make out if you're saying Tortured Crusader is good or bad.

For the record: I'm really digging it. It makes paladins work for dwarves, fits the "skills matter" style of modern PFS and feels about equally strong compared to the classic Oath of Vengeance paladin.

Silver Crusade 1/5 Contributor

I'd really like to make a "Hellknight" out of a hellspawn-tiefling tortured crusader. ^_^

(It doesn't help the actual Hellknight PrC, but that's what vanities are for.)

Silver Crusade

I can vouch, Tortured Crusader is badass.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:

An upgrade from the bard to a full BAB bard is a much bigger deal, even if it comes with downsides.

The paladin doing the paladins job better= no big deal

The paladin doing the bards job better= problem.

By that logic, we should ban life oracles.

Silver Crusade

Michael Hallet wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

An upgrade from the bard to a full BAB bard is a much bigger deal, even if it comes with downsides.

The paladin doing the paladins job better= no big deal

The paladin doing the bards job better= problem.

By that logic, we should ban life oracles.

Only if you viewed Clerics as just healbots.


Rysky wrote:
Michael Hallet wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

An upgrade from the bard to a full BAB bard is a much bigger deal, even if it comes with downsides.

The paladin doing the paladins job better= no big deal

The paladin doing the bards job better= problem.

By that logic, we should ban life oracles.
Only if you viewed Clerics as just healbots.

I think he was more refering to the fact that Clerics were the original healbot class and is outclasses by a class released after its release. Albiet grasping as he is using core rules (and only the Summoner is banned there), so it makes less sense then comparing archetypes.

4/5 *

There will always be core items people can point to as also "overpowered". Little catches up to a standard archer ranger with a wolf companion, even after years of new options. But removing the ranger archer is unfeasible for so many reasons. Not allowing a new option is much more viable way of trying to limit power creep.

Does the lack of this one option prevent the creation of a certain character concept, when there are already similar options available?

3/5 **** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

GM Lamplighter wrote:

There will always be core items people can point to as also "overpowered". Little catches up to a standard archer ranger with a wolf companion, even after years of new options. But removing the ranger archer is unfeasible for so many reasons. Not allowing a new option is much more viable way of trying to limit power creep.

Didn't they manage to outdo the ranged combat capabilities of the archer ranger in the first book they released after Core? Alchemist is definitely better. Mesmerist potentially might be better though that is a weird build no one anticipated. Occultist steals Ranger options and uses them to better effect.

4/5 *

Alchemist is pretty good, but not necessarily "better" in all cases. My point is, it is harder to remove core options even if they are "overpowered", whereas it's easier to not allow new items if the are overpowered.

Having *fewer* overpowered options in the game is a good thing for the campaign, even if there are still some out there.

1/5

plus there are new people. These new people might have banned option X that is currently legal if they were evaluating it now. So saying that it should be legal because option X is legal doesn't hold water with them since they wish that option X wasn't legal.

niche protection might be a new view they are going with now.

So while new feature Y isn't OP in the sense of the game and role comparison, because of niche protection, it's banned to protect a weaker choice in that role, but that already filled that niche.

Like eldritch scoundrel is only for chained rogues. The only reason I can see was getting Dex to damage AND spells "is the obvious and correct choice" and all you'd see are eldritch scoundrel Urogues. So they made it so you needed a choice. Dex to damage OR spells. Not because eldritch scoundrel Urogues are better than a magus or warlock or X. But because "it'd be better than itself" even though the Urogue is still probably one of the weaker classes.

3/5 **** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

GM Lamplighter wrote:

Alchemist is pretty good, but not necessarily "better" in all cases. My point is, it is harder to remove core options even if they are "overpowered", whereas it's easier to not allow new items if the are overpowered.

You picked one of the weakest options (Pretty much any martial class) to go with in determining "overpowered" stuff. And even then you have archetypes that grant flight at level 2 which really confuses the whole issue of what is allowed and isn't.

4/5

See, I've solved the problem of legalization disappointment by not buying Paizo material unless:

  • It is already on the Additional Resources and any clarifications are in the Campaign Clarifications.
  • I have a specific concept in mind that requires the material.
  • It doesn't seem likely to be FAQ'd or errata'd out of usefulness.

Indeed, I love the flavor of the Martyr, but its failure to replace a vestigial aura at 11 (YAY! I can spend Smite Evil uses that I don't have to provide a bonus!) and basically being "balanced" around aura radius certainly dissuaded me from making one, but it is made even worse if the core functionality of the archetype is replaced by something as simple as an Oath that outperforms it. Fortunately, this just means I can ignore the Oath's source book until I find something that I absolutely want to play with that IS legal.

#cynicforlife

I tend to make an exception for hardcovers, but any softcover? Yeah, those get backseated until I know what to expect. As such, I'm usually more patient about AR/CC updates.

3/5 **** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

Serisan wrote:


#cynicforlife

I'm usually more pleasantly surprised because there is a lot of weird stuff that makes its way to additional resources that never in a million years would I have imagined getting in the current state.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:

An upgrade from the bard to a full BAB bard is a much bigger deal, even if it comes with downsides.

The paladin doing the paladins job better= no big deal

The paladin doing the bards job better= problem.

Your argument falls apart when we remember that the Evangelist archetype for Cleric is legal.

I'd argue that an upgrade from the bard to a prepared full-casting Bard is a much, much bigger deal. Especially when that upgrade comes with very few downsides.

Paladin kinda doing the Bard's job, they're still missing the party buff spells and give up the ability to do the Paladin's job = problem

Cleric doing the Bard's job, but vastly better because they have Cleric casting and give up very little = No big deal.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Disk Elemental wrote:

Your argument falls apart when we remember that the Evangelist archetype for Cleric is legal.

At best this assumes that the additional resources are being done by a 100% accurate, objective standard. I don't even know if thats POSSIBLE, much less that it exists.

The evangalist doesn't synergize as well into fully armored full bab self buffing beatstick.

The paladin gains the following performances at the indicated levels: inspire courage (1st), fascinate (4th), inspire competence (5th), suggestion (7th), dirge of dread (10th), inspire greatness (13th), frightening tune (16th), and mass suggestion (19th).

However, an evangelist gains only the following types of bardic performance: countersong, fascinate, and inspire courage at 1st level; inspire greatness at 9th level; and inspire heroics at 15th level.

The peoples elbowpaladin gets a bigger chunk of the performances

3/5 **** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

BigNorseWolf wrote:


The evangalist doesn't synergize as well into fully armored full bab self buffing beatstick.

Yeah but as I said earlier Bardic Performance does not synergizes well with a beatstick either. Really you need it on a separate class that can waste the actions rather than on the Paladin. Also Evangelist gets the better Bardic Performances.

5/5 5/55/55/5

better is not objective.

Countersong IS really good, fascinate is really hard to make use of... and then they don't anything else in pfs levels till 9th. Besides countersong what is the paladin missing?

me: Its more about the level of niche erosion

you: no no no you're wrong its all about the power! look how the power doesn't make any sense.


@Big Norse Wolf - If you're worried about a full BAB class getting the full package of Bardic Performance while trading little away, that's perfectly understandable. However, I would like to make some argument to why Oath of the People is not as much of a buff comparatively, and is moreso stepping on the toes of a sub-par option. (Insert joke about Martyr's unavoidable bleeding clause).

Comparatively, Smite is a +CHA to Attack, Damage, and Armor against a single Evil entity. Because CHA is a scaling resource, it's perfectly reasonable to assume this damage will only progress further along the game. However, because Bardic Performance does not target Evil, its most comparable to the Enlightened Paladin's Personal Trial (Su) ability. Swift action, +1 Attack, Damage, AC vs. a single opponent, scaling up to +6 at level 20 (+4 at level 12). As a Standard Action, Oath of the People's Council only gives +4 (+3 at level 12) to the party, meaning that they will need to use at least 2 rounds to benefit themselves. Additionally, Smite/Personal Trial is a single target 1 and done for 24 hours whereas Bardic Performance is a recourse all on its own.

Bardic Performance is less about them getting it and more about sharing the benefits with the others around them. In regards to stepping on the toes of another archetype, looking more into it, I don't even think it does that all too much (please forgive my ignorance for Bardic Performance, this is actually the first BP character I've wanted to make but can't lol).

Martyr gains: Countersong, Distraction, Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, and Inspire Heroics* while using Heal as his primary source and taking Bleed Damage per ability.

OotPC gains: Inspire Courage, Fascinate, Inspire Competence, Suggestion, Dirge of Dread, Inspire Greatness*, Frightening Tune*, and Mass Suggestion* using Perform (Oratory) and the effects are language-dependent even if they would not normally be.

(*Abilities gained after level 12).

The abilities that Martyr gets outshines OotPC at first level up until (imo) Fascinate and Suggestion at level 7. Martyr even gets Inspire Greatness before OotPC, which doesn't get them through most PFS legality lifespan.

I think the only real different here, if any, is "This functions as" and "duplicating the effect of". Functions as sounds like it works with Bardic feats and abilities, whereas "duplicates the effects of" does not. I'll have to ask this in the rules function, but if that is the case, OotPC is just barely stepping on Martyr's toes for that reason alone.

TL:DR - If your worried about the damage boost, compare the archetype to Enlightened Paladin or Tortured Crusader, both are stronger for solo, enlightened working on non-evil. Martyr has better choices throughout the early level and Inspire Greatness at later levels. Only real toss is the rules for "functions as" vs "duplicates the effects of" RAW rules.

(My apologies for the long rant... I've had a long and stressful day, and needed a place to vent.)

Silver Crusade 1/5 Contributor

I've never heard of the enlightened paladin archetype... is it new?


@ Kalindlara: Please forgive my lack of resources. I left my flash drive at my work (one of the many reasons I'm frustrated tonight). Using public sources to research right now. Paladin of Ieloia or whatever that "self perfection" deity is.

Source in question is - Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Combat
Currently using - www.d20pfsrd.com

Silver Crusade 1/5 Contributor

Ah! Fair enough. (I'm not familiar with most d20pfsrd terms.)

Thank you! ^_^


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Just searched Nethys, apparently the archetypes name is Iroran Paladin.

As a swift action, it gains a scaling bonus to one enemy. One use and it lasts for 24 hours (as smite).

Comparatively:

As a standard action, it and allies gain a scaling bonus to one enemy. Each turn runs down the clock it lasts. (only lasts minutes).

3/5 **** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

BigNorseWolf wrote:


better is not objective.

Countersong IS really good, fascinate is really hard to make use of... and then they don't anything else in pfs levels till 9th. Besides countersong what is the paladin missing?

The ability to grant rerolls with their Bardic Performance? The exact opposite of cleric initiative? Its kind of hard to peg that down given that the bard is one of the few classes that can competently handle ever single niche imaginable which is its niche.

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