A character who chooses sorcerer as her secondary class gains the following secondary class features.
Bloodline: At 1st level, she must select a sorcerer bloodline. She treats her character level as her effective sorcerer level for all bloodline powers.
Bloodline Power: At 3rd level, she gains her bloodline's 1st-level bloodline power.
Improved Bloodline Power: At 7th level, she gains her bloodline's 3rd-level bloodline power.
Blood of Dragons: A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained. He must choose a dragon type upon gaining his first level in this class and that type must be the same as his sorcerer type. This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level.
Breath Weapon (Su): At 9th level, you gain a breath weapon. This breath weapon deals 1d6 points of damage of your energy type per sorcerer level. Those caught in the area of the breath receive a Reflex save for half damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 your sorcerer level + your Charisma modifier. The shape of the breath weapon depends on your dragon type (as indicated on the above chart). At 9th level, you can use this ability once per day. At 17th level, you can use this ability twice per day. At 20th level, you can use this ability three times per day.
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My character takes a VMC Sorceror, taking Draconic as my bloodline. As mentioned in other forums, I forfeit my Blood Arcana, and have to wait for a few levels before I feel the difference.
Assume I have 7 levels in a different class (Let's say, Bloodrager. But not important, I think). I have my first Bloodline Power at Level 3, and second Bloodline Power at Level 7 as normal.
Talking solely about Bloodline powers, when I get my first level in Dragon Disciple, I feel like these are what would happen:
1. Because I'm effectively above Level 3, I unlock my Bloodline powers AGAIN as an effect of Blood of Dragons, thus allowing me to get 2 Bloodline Mutations (or redundant Abilities that do not stack).
2. Because I'm character Level 8 AND I have Level in DD, my effective sorcerer level now becomes 8 + 1 = 9, giving me access to the Breath Weapon.
3. 2 more Levels in DD makes me 7 Rager, 3 DD. This makes me character level 10, + 3 effective sorcerer levels through Blood of Dragons. I unlock the legit DD Breath weapon (which could have a 2nd use if #2 is correct), and deals 13d6.
Alternative: Because I have no real levels in Sorceror, I, instead, have a redundant Draconic bloodline, which allows me to, maybe, qualify for the level 1 Blood Mutation.
Are any of these correct?
With what ur doing, just go along as if the levels u have in another class besides dragon disciple are sorcerer even if they are not minus the extra spells.
1. I'm not understanding sorry this one, clarify a lil bit for me please. I don't believe DD lets u bypass the progression since u technically don't "have" sorcerer levels.
2. No. It just lets u continue gaining sorcerer levels in the background instead of stopping because ur not taking levels in the other class.
3. Yes and no. The damage is correct but u do not gain the extra breath attack until lvl 15
About #1. DD says I "add" my DD levels to my now available "effective sorceror levels", given to me by the VMC in Sorc.
However, now that you mention it, not having actual sorc levels puts up the alternative, giving me both "effective sorceror levels" and "sorceror levels".
This STILL gives me a redundant source of Bloodline powers though, since I get them from both VMC Sorc and DD. I just don't get them as early.
I get my Level 1 Bloodline Power at level 3 with any class, then I get it again on my first level in Dragon disciple, because I now earn a bloodline, and have a new DD based sorc level sorc.
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The word "instead" inside Blood of Dragons will make it annoying though, since that means I can't use the first sentence that allows me to "add" eff Sorc levels "if I don't have Sorc levels".
I get 2 separate sets of Sorc levels, that will confuse everyone without actually being a sorc.
Also, just to clarify since I feel this being implied:
Is Variant Multiclassing tied to a class or a player?
As in, if I VMC Sorc in Bloodrager, can I VMC rogue when I Multiclass to Ranger?
Or
I'm I stuck with just VMC sorc, no matter the number of multiclassing?
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I felt this implied as you said:
It just lets u continue gaining sorcerer levels in the background instead of stopping because ur not taking levels in the other class.
Forfeiting my "tied to a class" question:
Under the standard rules, multiclassing can lead to a wide disparity in character ability. With this system, each character can choose a secondary class at 1st level that she trains in throughout her career, without giving up levels in her primary class. Once selected, this choice is permanent (though if using the retraining rules, the secondary class can be retrained by paying half the cost of retraining all her class levels).
That should mean I'm stuck gaining the bonuses of Sorc VMC, no matter the multiclassing.
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Trying to reword my questions, because I think I'm confusing people.
1. Do I get the Bloodline powers I WOULD gain from Blood of Dragons?
(Current assumption: VMC sorc gave me 2 Bloodline powers, and 1 level in DD gives me the Level 1 Bloodline power through Blood of Dragons)
2. (Forfeited. I don't qualify for new powers through VMC Sorcerer, so I only count Blood of Dragons for new Bloodline powers.)
3. Do I add Blood of Dragon's sorcerer levels to the effective sorcerer level given by Sorc VMC, even when I don't have actual levels in Sorcerer?
(Current assumption: They're separate, and I should use only the higher of the 2)
I think, since you don't have actual Sorcerer levels or a Sorcerer Bloodline as a feature that came from one of your multiple classes, you gain the Bloodline Powers bestowed by your Dragon Disciple levels as a Sorcerer of your Dragon Disciple level. You may end up with redundant or extra uses of a power, but never any actual Sorcerer levels.
When you gain your breath weapon from your Dragon Disciple levels, it would function as a Sorcerer of your Dragon Disciple level, plus you may have a breath weapon granted by your VMC Sorcerer level. These would be separate abilities, each with their own separate strength.
As an aside, in this scenario which class would you use to qualify for the unprepared arcane caster requisite? Which class would you add your Dragon Disciple levels to for spellcasting?
My character takes a VMC Sorceror, taking Draconic as my bloodline. As mentioned in other forums, I forfeit my Blood Arcana, and have to wait for a few levels before I feel the difference.
Assume I have 7 levels in a different class (Let's say, Bloodrager. But not important, I think). I have my first Bloodline Power at Level 3, and second Bloodline Power at Level 7 as normal.
Talking solely about Bloodline powers, when I get my first level in Dragon Disciple, I feel like these are what would happen:
1. Because I'm effectively above Level 3, I unlock my Bloodline powers AGAIN as an effect of Blood of Dragons, thus allowing me to get 2 Bloodline Mutations (or redundant Abilities that do not stack).
2. Because I'm character Level 8 AND I have Level in DD, my effective sorcerer level now becomes 8 + 1 = 9, giving me access to the Breath Weapon.
3. 2 more Levels in DD makes me 7 Rager, 3 DD. This makes me character level 10, + 3 effective sorcerer levels through Blood of Dragons. I unlock the legit DD Breath weapon (which could have a 2nd use if #2 is correct), and deals 13d6.
Alternative: Because I have no real levels in Sorceror, I, instead, have a redundant Draconic bloodline, which allows me to, maybe, qualify for the level 1 Blood Mutation.
Are any of these correct?
You would need levels in Bard or Bloodrager to qualify for DD - assuming you are using the VMC rules for not being allowed to take the class you are VMC'd into. So the 'other class' *is* important.
1. Murky - Bloodlines are meant to only be taken once - while I'm having a hard time finding rules to that effect I don't think it fits the spirit of the rules, and I doubt any GM would allow it.
However - if you had the bloodline twice - VMC (in my opinion) wouldn't stack because the VMC only gives you 'effective' levels for the VMC bloodlines - and the DD only adds to your 'actual' levels - so if you had two bloodlines of the same type I'd say one works off the Sorcerer level and the other off of DD.
Note - bloodragers can take bloodlines as well - given a VMC bloodrager/DD up to 4 bloodlines at once I think.
2. These don't stack - the effective level from VMC isn't a real sorcerer level and so they don't interact - the most advantageous ruling you should expect (again in my opinion) would be that the DD bloodline is just 'another' bloodline and uses your VMC rules for powers. The point of the DD ability is to allow a sorcerer to use their total character level for bloodline powers - as a VMC sorcerer you already get that so it's a redundant (at best) ability.
3. See above - however you can do what you want without all the rules logic gymnastics by using a robe of arcane heritage.
As mentioned above, I declared Bloodrager (which gets his first Arcane Spell at Level 4), and it being my only other class, it gets the DD's bonus to spells per day.
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I find the separate Breath weapons plausible, but Sorc VMC's Bloodline says all bloodline powers. RAW imply it's not restricted to only bloodline powers from the VMC. One can argue that the people can't normally get bloodlines, but I find it odd for them to forget DDs.
You're forgetting one crucial piece of information:
If the dragon disciple DOES NOT have levels of sorcerer, he INSTEAD gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained.
(Emphasis Mine)
Do you have levels in Sorcerer? If yes, you use the section you bolded in your OP.
If not, then you use this section's benefits instead of the section you bolded.
VMC doesn't give you levels in the class in which you take VMC for, and the effects of VMC are almost always determined by character level, not class level (Yes, Class Level = Character Level still doesn't mean you have levels in that class).
Therefore, you're left with two sets of bloodline powers, one granted through your VMC, with effects equal to your level, and another, Draconic one, with effects equal to your DD level.
That being said, if you took levels in Bloodrager, Dragon Disciple levels stack with Bloodrager levels to determine Bloodline Powers granted from your Bloodrager level due to a relevant FAQ saying it applies. The VMC Sorcerer bloodline would function independantly, because you already fulfill the Draconic Bloodline requirements with your Bloodrager.
So, you could, for example, take VMC Sorcerer (Any Bloodline), pick up Bloodrager Levels with the Draconic Bloodline, and have VMC Sorcerer Bloodline Powers equal to your character level, and Bloodrager Bloodline Powers equal to your Bloodrager + DD levels (in other words, your character level).
Bonus Points if you can miraculously pick up Eldritch Heritage feat chain with the remaining feats you have, giving you an effective 3 Bloodlines to benefit from (though in my opinion, you're basically already doing that with the VMC Sorcerer option).
I don't recall any erratas that allow DD's Blood of Dragon's to affect Bloodrager Bloodlines, but everything else makes sense.
VMC's all bloodline powers still are limited to granting only sorcerer levels, so I don't think it helps bloodragers in any way, unless we can find one that looks, specifically, at sorcerer levels (like looking for Druid levels in a Ranger's animal companion)
Also, for the record, I didn't forget about the instead. That scenario is under Alternative.
However, it seems it makes sense now.
0. Not having sorcerer levels, I have no prerequisit to get a Draconic Bloodline. I get it through DD Instead.
1. I qualify for new powers through DD, and VMC sorc doesn't help me get them faster.
2. When qualifying for new powers, VMC Sorcerer levels don't stack with those from DD's Blood of Dragons, because I have no real sorceror levels, and cannot, in any way, get real sorcerer levels.
3. I use my character level, and that alone, for all bloodline powers that look for sorcerer bloodlines.
I'm hoping these are all correct now.
Thank you, all. ^w^
I don't recall any erratas that allow DD's Blood of Dragon's to affect Bloodrager Bloodlines, but everything else makes sense.
About #1. DD says I "add" my DD levels to my now available "effective sorceror levels", given to me by the VMC in Sorc.
However, now that you mention it, not having actual sorc levels puts up the alternative, giving me both "effective sorceror levels" and "sorceror levels".
This STILL gives me a redundant source of Bloodline powers though, since I get them from both VMC Sorc and DD. I just don't get them as early.
I get my Level 1 Bloodline Power at level 3 with any class, then I get it again on my first level in Dragon disciple, because I now earn a bloodline, and have a new DD based sorc level sorc.
========The word "instead" inside Blood of Dragons will make it annoying though, since that means I can't use the first sentence that allows me to "add" eff Sorc levels "if I don't have Sorc levels".
I get 2 separate sets of Sorc levels, that will confuse everyone without actually being a sorc.
I feel like that line is if u was doing normal multiclassing (basically being a legal widely accepted version of the benefit ur getting with VMC without having VMC) but since ur doing VMC it follows that instead. So even with 1 lvl of DD, ur VMC sorcerer would be level 9 and according to the. nc chart, uvwouldnt gain anything in sorcerer until lvl 11. By that time u would unlock the breath attack legally thru DD and would unlock a bloodline feat or eschew materials with ur sorcerer level.
That make sense?
I don't recall any erratas that allow DD's Blood of Dragon's to affect Bloodrager Bloodlines, but everything else makes sense.
VMC's all bloodline powers still are limited to granting only sorcerer levels, so I don't think it helps bloodragers in any way, unless we can find one that looks, specifically, at sorcerer levels (like looking for Druid levels in a Ranger's animal companion)
Also, for the record, I didn't forget about the instead. That scenario is under Alternative.
However, it seems it makes sense now.
0. Not having sorcerer levels, I have no prerequisit to get a Draconic Bloodline. I get it through DD Instead.
1. I qualify for new powers through DD, and VMC sorc doesn't help me get them faster.
2. When qualifying for new powers, VMC Sorcerer levels don't stack with those from DD's Blood of Dragons, because I have no real sorceror levels, and cannot, in any way, get real sorcerer levels.
3. I use my character level, and that alone, for all bloodline powers that look for sorcerer bloodlines.
I'm hoping these are all correct now.
0. As CalethosVB stated, the Bloodrager + DD Bloodline stacking is permitted through a FAQ (which he linked), so your Bloodrager + DD levels stack for determining your Draconic Bloodline abilities granted through Bloodrager levels. This means that you're considered to already have the Draconic Bloodline, and your DD levels apply to your Bloodrager levels to determine the Bloodline Powers granted (and their effects).
1. Again, your DD level applies to your Bloodrager Bloodline Powers. VMC doesn't help you get them faster, but it gives you a whole other set of powers from the Sorcerer Bloodline you choose at 1st level.
2. You are correct in that DD levels won't increase your VMC Bloodline abilities; they are intrinsically tied to your character level. They also won't apply to any Eldritch Heritage feats you may choose to acquire (but it's very hefty; it's 4 feats, and you already spent 5 for the VMC Sorcerer stuff).
3. Correct. I will again point out that for your Bloodrager powers, your Bloodrager and Dragon Disciple levels will stack. Of course, taking levels in anything other than those two classes will mean that your Bloodrager's Draconic Bloodline will not advance (but your VMC Sorcerer and Eldritch Heritage Bloodline abilities would as normal).
This is awesome! I was already scary with my Bloodrager limited to before DD levels. XDD
This kind of means I need to have a Draconic Bloodine on my Bloodrager then, right? (As a prerequisite, since I have a class that grants a Bloodline)
Since they're essentially the same, I wonder if the DD's Bite attack would trigger in a Bloodrager's OH MY GOD! WHAT SORCERY IS THIS?!
This is just messed up. Thank you guys. XDD Was just trying to add a flavorful character, and I ended up optimizing.