Happy Holidays, all!
I'm putting together a PFS character who is a Human Wildblooded Sorcerer (Sylvan) and she'll have a wolf animal companion from the start. As part of the early build I was planning on taking Magical Lineage (Magic Missile) and the Toppling Spell feat to use with Magic Missile. My wolf gets an automatic Trip attempt every time he hits with his Bite so I figured that the Tandem Trip feat would be an ideal pairing; I could get the feat at 5th (Boon Companion at 3rd) and he'd get it at 4th if I use the Attribute bump to increase his Intelligence to 3. Does this work the way I think it does?
If he's out in combat away from me and I use the spell against a foe he threatens I get to roll twice to trip, but if the wolf hits with an attack he only rolls once. If I also threaten the target and the wolf hits with an attack then he gets to roll twice to Trip as well. Is that right? Is it worth a feat?
It seems like this would come up often enough to be useful; does anyone's experience say differently? Also, am I considered to be threatening if I don't have a weapon in hand and don't have Improved Unarmed Strike? Finally, if someone provokes an AoO from the wolf and he hits, does the Trip ability trigger then as well?
Thanks in advance!
I appreciate the response - as a follow-up (anyone, please) - if using Toppling Spell with Magic Missile at, say, 9th level, does that mean that I can theoretically make five trip attempts against 5 different foes, or even five trip attempts against the same foe? Or is it one of those awkward things where you only get a Trip attempt with the first magic missile?
|
I've always seen it as a trip vs. each foe. You'll have others see it other ways depending on if they think the "sneak attack/extra damage" rule applies.
It'll be super fun early on. When you start going agains flying foes or foes that simply can't be tripped you'll find it's way less fun.
Another option is that you can use alternate racial option to up one of your pets ability scores by two and give up your bonus feat. This'll let you get your pet up to int 4 immediately. But it doesn't help your feat progression because you still won't be able to pick up Tandem Trip until 5th (assuming you want Boon Companion at three which you most likely do).
I've always seen it as a trip vs. each foe. You'll have others see it other ways depending on if they think the "sneak attack/extra damage" rule applies.
It'll be super fun early on. When you start going agains flying foes or foes that simply can't be tripped you'll find it's way less fun.
Another option is that you can use alternate racial option to up one of your pets ability scores by two and give up your bonus feat. This'll let you get your pet up to int 4 immediately. But it doesn't help your feat progression because you still won't be able to pick up Tandem Trip until 5th (assuming you want Boon Companion at three which you most likely do).
Yes, I'll be taking Boon Companion at 3rd, the INT boost at 4th and Tandem Trip for both by 5th.
I'll get the Toppling Magic Missile at 1st level and of course its effectiveness will diminish as I level up, but I'm not trying to be a one-trick pony here, just trying to get the most I can out of a simple tactic - I'm sure by the time its become less useful I'll have plenty of other useful things to draw on. Its important to me that PFS builds be fun from 1st to 11th as I should spend equal time at each level. It occurs to me that by the time we're facing big bads, the ones that CAN be tripped I'll get 4 or 5 trip attempts per round against them.
And no way am I giving up those bonus spells that Humans get as their FCB ;)
Little update - I played this in a PFS scenario this weekend (out of tier even) and had a great time... maybe the most fun I've had playing a PFS scenario. One of the pre-requisites I have for PFS characters is that they be fun at every level since I'm going to spend an equal amount of time at each... no long grinds to get to X level so that the character is finally fun or viable. To that end I can't recommend this build enough. the trip mechanic makes you feel really effective as a low level character and the animal companion adds a nice dimension to playstyle. As I level up and Trip becomes less viable, more and more fun options will come online.
As a sorcerer you can get a long spear to threaten from a distance. so you can stand behind your pet and threaten. The sad part of this combo is that you will not get to take advantage of improved trip.
I am a bigger fan of spiritual weapon and toppling. As a cleric you do not get this spell until 3rd, but improved trip you can get at 9th. So if your weapon knocks a guy down it threatens. You can still get the pet through the animal domain. Plus you have better armor if you wanna get closer and threaten as well.
Dirty Fighting might help open up some interesting options for the animal companion. I guess that using True Strike with Share Spells could also offer a way for the animal to succeed very easily on certain CMB checks.
It would be nice to have a trick to use against flying enemies too.
Remember guys, the only time I'm using Trip is with Magic Missile - neither of us will be taking Improved Trip as part of our build, only Tandem Trip so that at various times we both get a double roll... it'll really let me be effective tripping from across the battlefield so long as my wolf is in the mix, and when he's protecting me from melee foes he'll be much more likely to get his foe down.
Again, the tripping thing isn't the end-all be-all of this build, its just a fun option that allows me to be VERY effective at lower levels and will likely see at least some use for the entirety of the build. As a caster I plan on being able to fill a broad range of roles, with offensive spells (I like Aggressive Thundercloud and Greater Aggressive Thundercloud in particular), control-type spells (Color Spray at level 1 and Entangle by level 3 is pretty sweet), utility stuff and enough buffs like Haste and Communal Prot. Evil to keep me popular and busy during the first few rounds of combat.
I'm carrying a longspear and a cestus at the moment, but my strength and attack bonus are so low that any damage by that route is pure lagniappe for me.
I'm sure we'll find some tricks for flyers in there at some point ;)
If anybody is interested, I'd be happy to post the build... its not OP'd, barely what I'd call optimized if at all but what it is is versatile, solid and a blast to play from early levels to the very end.
As a sorcerer you can get a long spear to threaten from a distance. so you can stand behind your pet and threaten. The sad part of this combo is that you will not get to take advantage of improved trip.
I am a bigger fan of spiritual weapon and toppling. As a cleric you do not get this spell until 3rd, but improved trip you can get at 9th. So if your weapon knocks a guy down it threatens. You can still get the pet through the animal domain. Plus you have better armor if you wanna get closer and threaten as well.
I think you're thinking of Greater Trip - but feat-starved as Clerics (and Sorcerers) are, that's a lot to invest for what is, at best a secondary tactic. The wolf can't take Combat Expertise (Intelligence 13 pre-req) and even a Cleric doesn't get it until 9th level, by which time more than 2/3 of your PFS career has passed...
Dirty Fighting does work for the wolf though once it has 3 Int. If you're getting a wolf rather than a big cat or something then presumably you do want a companion that trips.
I think you're thinking of Greater Trip - but feat-starved as Clerics (and Sorcerers) are, that's a lot to invest for what is, at best a secondary tactic. The wolf can't take Combat Expertise (Intelligence 13 pre-req) and even a Cleric doesn't get it until 9th level, by which time more than 2/3 of your PFS career has passed...As a sorcerer you can get a long spear to threaten from a distance. so you can stand behind your pet and threaten. The sad part of this combo is that you will not get to take advantage of improved trip.
I am a bigger fan of spiritual weapon and toppling. As a cleric you do not get this spell until 3rd, but improved trip you can get at 9th. So if your weapon knocks a guy down it threatens. You can still get the pet through the animal domain. Plus you have better armor if you wanna get closer and threaten as well.
Well the cleric does not live off of the greater trip, just a nice addition you get at level 9. Just like your sorcerer would not just trip.
Either way a spiritual weapon is very viable for toppling as well.
|
I have a Toppling build concept for a Fighter 1/Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight 10.
After I made him I realized I had made a Jedi :-p
But the build was with Improved and Greater trip. Toppling spell I could apply to a handful of force spells. Magic Missile of course is a great one because you can trip a bunch of mooks at the same time.
The Force Hand line of spells comes to mind. Chain of Perdition. Twilight Knife. Telekinesis. Leashed shackle, though that wouldn't do much.
There isn't too many of them, but as you can see they can be really useful.
Some might say it's might be cheesy or op. But I think it's very flavorful to a "Force Specialist" type sorcerer who can already lack diversity. And not all creatures can be tripped or worth tripping. Most big bad guys can be immune to magic missile too.
You take scimitar, improved critical, and tripping critical and you can control the battlefield nicely.
What is best is when the twilight Knife just stabs someone so hard they fall to the ground. BACKSTAB!!
|
|
What is best is when the twilight Knife just stabs someone so hard they fall to the ground. BACKSTAB!!For Twilight knife, the prone condition doesn't cause the target to be denied his dexterity bonus to AC, so you don't get sneak attack.
Oh I understand that quite well. As an eldritch knight I'll most likely be the knifes flanking partner. BACKSTAB!