PFS allows you to have only 1 deity and you must be within 1 alignment step of them I believe.
For Pathfinder otherwise...I don't think is spelled out anywhere.
Personally I rule it as:
You worship 1 deity (or Pantheon, but Pantheons get the stats of the head deity Torag as an example for the Dwarven pantheon).
Must be within 1 alignment step of the deity (otherwise you think too differently from the deity to be a "true" worshiper.
In order to mechanically benefit from something tied to a specific deity you must be a worshiper of that deity.
You can "revere" as many deities as you like, but cannot gain benefits from them if you are not a worshiper.
If you don't have these sorts of restrictions you could have someone claim to be a pantheists who worships all deity (and their alignment is irrelevant because it's not restricted) and so they can benefit from all religious/divine things in the game...which definitely does not seem like the intention to me.
But you are right, it could use formalized rules for what it means to be a worshiper.
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I think the only actual rule is "you can only derive mechanical benefit from the worship of a single deity at a time." That is, even if Torag and Erastil get along great, you can't have both of their deific obediences.
Beyond that, there are no rules, though a lot of GMs will either ask for some sort of alignment agreement, or an in-character explanation for why there isn't one (being a heretic is possible, after all; it's an inquisitor archetype). The "must be within one alignment step" rule for PFS is largely because "exploring the tension in the faith of someone who is both devout and iconoclastic" is really not the point of PFS.
As far as I know, the rules are as follows:
You may only "worship" one being (it's not entirely restricted to gods) at a time.
To worship a being, you must be within one step of its alignment (I believe there are ways to make exceptions, however).
You may "venerate" beings with no restrictions or mechanical benefits.
The above are all PFS rules. There are no general Pathfinder rules on worship. Specific classes (like Cleric) or abilities may have such restrictions, but unless a particular ability requires a limitation you're fine RAW. As I noted a couple of weeks ago, there are no alignment restrictions on most Obedience feats.
Is this actually stated anywhere, or is it just a 'forum knowledge' sort of thing like the BS with spells having visual displays? If something's going to have a rule, it should be listed somewhere, and no one's been able to give a reference point for said rule.As far as I know, the rules are as follows:
You may only "worship" one being (it's not entirely restricted to gods) at a time.
To worship a being, you must be within one step of its alignment (I believe there are ways to make exceptions, however).
You may "venerate" beings with no restrictions or mechanical benefits.
There's an FAQ about the spell manifestations, though I do honestly forget where.
And the other bit is in the Pathfinder Society Guide (I believe) but sine I don't play PFS I've never actually bothered to hunt down the exact location of the rule.
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The above are all PFS rules. There are no general Pathfinder rules on worship. Specific classes (like Cleric) or abilities may have such restrictions, but unless a particular ability requires a limitation you're fine RAW. As I noted a couple of weeks ago, there are no alignment restrictions on most Obedience feats.
Yep, the rules for worship are setting rules, not mechanical rules, and so really up to the GM to define.
The PFS rules are a good guideline for how the developers think things work on Golarion, but are only guidelines.
In my experience, even if a GM doesn't have an opinion on anything else in the world they're running, they will have a strong opinion on how worship works, so that's always a big thing to ask about.
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I think there's just a disconnect between "the people who make the rules" and "the people who make the options" sometimes. Like it could be the fact that they literally have two different groups of people working on them.
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If something doesn't have a mechanical basis, why should it be allowed in mechanics? If you don't have a hard coded rule for worship, including it in the prerequisites for things seems rubbish. I know I'm just complaining here, but Paizo seems to be a fan of these "It's a flavor thing that we don't have to fully explain" which is something I'm really getting annoyed about.The above are all PFS rules. There are no general Pathfinder rules on worship. Specific classes (like Cleric) or abilities may have such restrictions, but unless a particular ability requires a limitation you're fine RAW. As I noted a couple of weeks ago, there are no alignment restrictions on most Obedience feats.Yep, the rules for worship are setting rules, not mechanical rules, and so really up to the GM to define.
The PFS rules are a good guideline for how the developers think things work on Golarion, but are only guidelines.
In my experience, even if a GM doesn't have an opinion on anything else in the world they're running, they will have a strong opinion on how worship works, so that's always a big thing to ask about.
I think you might want to look for a different game, then.
I think there's just a disconnect between "the people who make the rules" and "the people who make the options" sometimes. Like it could be the fact that they literally have two different groups of people working on them.
I think you're right. I've been here a while and I only just learned, thanks to Mark Seifter that the PDT has no oversight of the player companion line. There are many mechanical options intended for the world of Golarion, rather than intended to be generic options for any PF game.
That's not going to cheer up people who think mechanics and flavor should be totally separate, however it does at least explain things like this.
If something doesn't have a mechanical basis, why should it be allowed in mechanics? If you don't have a hard coded rule for worship, including it in the prerequisites for things seems rubbish. I know I'm just complaining here, but Paizo seems to be a fan of these "It's a flavor thing that we don't have to fully explain" which is something I'm really getting annoyed about.
They are trying to cater both to people like you and to people like me (I'd prefer it if there were less explicitly spelled out rules with much more interpretation and judgement required by the DM). The nature of any compromise is that nobody gets exactly what they want.
The question with any RPG is "is it good enough for me to use?" Not "is it exactly the way I'd like it?"
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Since worshiping deities are a mechanic for more than just clerics, what are the rules behind it? If it's a prereq for feats and other things, there needs to be some kind of hard coded rules so people can understand it. Can you only worship one deity? Do you have to be within its alignment like a cleric? I want to know since deity worship is a mechanic in the game, and it's not clearly explained at all.
Personally I don't see the point in a universe with multiple gods if you can only pick one. Most of my characters worship at least a few (I had a pally who worshipped Erastil, Iomedae, and Torag. Erastil was her family's patron deity, she was a smith who venerated the crafting aspect of Torag, and admired the crusader spirit of Iomedae). It would make sense that some folks would devote themselves to a single god, but most would venerate different gods for different reasons (they'd pray to Desna before taking a journey, pray to Erastil before going on a hunt, maybe even pray to Asmodeus before undertaking negotiations for a contract), kinda like how polytheistic people did in our world.
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The main reason to venerate/worship a god for most people is to determine where your soul goes, not receive power or blessings from that god.
The main reason to venerate/worship a god for most people is to determine where your soul goes, not receive power or blessings from that god.
Should "what happens when you die" really be common knowledge for individuals in the setting? This, to me, seems like a thing that ordinary people should not, under any circumstances, know.
I suspect the average commoner should not have accurate knowledge of "what life is like in the next country over" let alone "on different planes of existence".
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Should "what happens when you die" really be common knowledge for individuals in the setting? This, to me, seems like a thing that ordinary people should not, under any circumstances, know.
So early Greeks had no knowledge of Hades, except for esoteric priestly types? And Norse mythology kept Valhalla a total secret from ordinary people? And only medieval nobility knew about Heaven and Hell?
The main reason to venerate/worship a god for most people is to determine where your soul goes, not receive power or blessings from that god.Should "what happens when you die" really be common knowledge for individuals in the setting? This, to me, seems like a thing that ordinary people should not, under any circumstances, know.
Does Pharasma and her clergy not exist in your world? Do real world religions not tell people what reward they should expect in the afterworld? Evil and some neutral gods will lie about their specifics, and all will downplay that the god has absolute disposition of the souls they receive, but there should be zero confusion (outside barbaric or isolated populations with nonsensical cosmologies) that Pharasma judges all souls and sends them to the god (not gods plural) they worship or another fate if they earned that more than the god they professed to worship.
Planar travelers actually visit the afterlife and see conditions there and write books about it. All these books agree. This filters out to the general clergy who preach slanted versions to the general populace. The reasons to worship for the average man are because the god's philosophy matched their own outlook closely and they can commit their soul to them through worship. Worshipping more than one god can't add much to that.
So early Greeks had no knowledge of Hades, except for esoteric priestly types? And Norse mythology kept Valhalla a total secret from ordinary people? And only medieval nobility knew about Heaven and Hell?
That's belief, not knowledge. People can have all kinds of ideas about what happens to them after they die, but they shouldn't be able to have any kind of certainty.
Does Pharasma and her clergy not exist in your world? Do real world religions not tell people what reward they should expect in the afterworld? Evil and some neutral gods will lie about their specifics, and all will downplay that the god has absolute disposition of the souls they receive, but there should be zero confusion (outside barbaric or isolated populations with nonsensical cosmologies) that Pharasma judges all souls and sends them to the god (not gods plural) they worship or another fate if they earned that more than the god they professed to worship.
I prefer to maintain a strict distinction between "people believe/are told that this will happen to them after they die" and "what actually happens to them after they die." People absolutely know what they are told, but what reason do they have not to suspect it's motivated by something other than "being the truth."
After all, if this is transactional, then it's not really faith. Random people should not have a direct line to the will of the gods.
That's belief, not knowledge. People can have all kinds of ideas about what happens to them after they die, but they shouldn't be able to have any kind of certainty.Should "what happens when you die" really be common knowledge for individuals in the setting? This, to me, seems like a thing that ordinary people should not, under any circumstances, know.So early Greeks had no knowledge of Hades, except for esoteric priestly types? And Norse mythology kept Valhalla a total secret from ordinary people? And only medieval nobility knew about Heaven and Hell?
I don't have to rely upon hazy oral tradition to know what NYC looks like. I can read accounts of those who have been there, see paintings they created to capture the experience, or go myself. In Golarion you can hire a medium level cleric to take you on a tour.
People in Golarion should know as much about the afterlife as people in Victorian England knew about far flung areas of the world visited by explorers.
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People in Golarion should know as much about the afterlife as people in Victorian England knew about far flung areas of the world visited by explorers.
Which is to say "much, much less than they think they do"?
Depends on what you mean by common people. Your average random farmer in some backwoods village probably doesn't know anything about the outer planes, but educated city folk ought to have at least a general idea.
So early Greeks had no knowledge of Hades, except for esoteric priestly types? And Norse mythology kept Valhalla a total secret from ordinary people? And only medieval nobility knew about Heaven and Hell?That's belief, not knowledge. People can have all kinds of ideas about what happens to them after they die, but they shouldn't be able to have any kind of certainty.
Does Pharasma and her clergy not exist in your world? Do real world religions not tell people what reward they should expect in the afterworld? Evil and some neutral gods will lie about their specifics, and all will downplay that the god has absolute disposition of the souls they receive, but there should be zero confusion (outside barbaric or isolated populations with nonsensical cosmologies) that Pharasma judges all souls and sends them to the god (not gods plural) they worship or another fate if they earned that more than the god they professed to worship.I prefer to maintain a strict distinction between "people believe/are told that this will happen to them after they die" and "what actually happens to them after they die." People absolutely know what they are told, but what reason do they have not to suspect it's motivated by something other than "being the truth."
"Golarion: Infowars Edition"
This is the equivalent of not believing in the moon landings.
Edit: A better analogy would compare the decision to worship multiple inconsistent gods as the equivalent of using alternative medicine instead of the real stuff. Plenty of people will do it for a variety of reasons, but they aren't the majority and they're provably objectively wrong.
People in Golarion should know as much about the afterlife as people in Victorian England knew about far flung areas of the world visited by explorers.Which is to say "much, much less than they think they do"?
They can look up how to get there and have reasonable confidence that it exists.
Generally people are going to trust what their religious leaders say. If they didn't think their religious leaders know what they are talking about they'd find a different religion.
Granted, the evil religions are probably feeding the common worshipper a pack of lies because nobody would follow them if they knew what actually happens to souls in the lower planes.
I mean, your average Varisian peasant shouldn't know the specifics of how government works in Qadira, let alone "What's the Maelstrom like". Certainly "acquiring some personal experience about this" is possible for them, but they've got other things to worry about; like "farming" and "taxes".
For the most part they're just going to believe whatever they're told that "sounds right" that's told to them by someone they have no pre-existing reason to doubt. It's not like they're doing comparative shopping for religion; they're probably going to worship whatever deity everybody else in their village worships.
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The main reason to venerate/worship a god for most people is to determine where your soul goes, not receive power or blessings from that god.
I thought that the alignment of the deceased mattered more than who they worshipped, unless you were important enough to your god for them to ask for special dispensation.
Granted, for most people there isn't going to be a wide gulf between their alignment and that of their deity, so this may just be a matter of emphasis.
But if it's your alignment, not your deity, that determine where you end up, you can totally worship Shelyn, Sarenae, Isis, Qi Zhong, Trudd, Bolka, etc. all at the same time and have no issue ending up in Nirvana.