Any Advice to build a Spellslinger?


Advice


So Far I had come with this:

Wiz (Spellslinger) 5 / Gunslinger 1 / Eld Knight 10

Eldritch Knight Spells Arcane Lv3 and all martial weapons which the 1 Level in Gunslinger gives plus, Grit, +1 bab and some extra saves.

My Stats Str 10 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 19 Wis 14 Cha 6 (Android Lv10)

Weapon of Choice: Double Barrel Shotgun

Feats that I got:

Gunsmithing
Point Blankshot
Precise Shot
Rapid Reload (Shotgun)
Weapon Focus (Shotgun)
Reckless Aim
Reach Spell
Craft Arms and Armor

Anything I should add or change?
Arcane Blast perhaps?


Honestly since you already have the firearm proficiency and gunsmithing from Spellslinger, I would swap out that level of Gunslinger for a dip into Battle Host Occultist. It'll give you the same proficiency, a free Masterwork gun (any gun, including advanced) which will never be considered broken for you (so misfires don't matter), as well as a free +2 to DEX if you choose the Transmutation school. The only thing you'd be missing out on are some level one deeds that are pretty "meh" and one BAB, but that would be offset by your +2 to DEX.


FAQ for Battle Host

"It can still gain the broken condition, and, it still counts as having the broken condition for the purpose of effects that escalate if you have the broken condition (such as effects that give the broken condition, or destroy the target if it already has the broken condition)."

Expect table variance for what you can actually start with.


Tali Wah wrote:

FAQ for Battle Host

"It can still gain the broken condition, and, it still counts as having the broken condition for the purpose of effects that escalate if you have the broken condition (such as effects that give the broken condition, or destroy the target if it already has the broken condition)."

Expect table variance for what you can actually start with.

Yeah, but since it doesn't confer any penalties, most of what you care about can be ignored.


Damn Battle Host seems like a nice idea.


Are there feats to lower an armor Arcane Spell Failure?


Arcane Armor Training, and Arcane Armor Mastery.


The hellknight signifer PrC gets to reduce ASF as a class ability, and I'm sure they get access to a 3rd feat in the arcane armor training line tho' I can't find it just now.


Deadly Aim feat.

Plus read my guide...almost all of your listed feats are helping you fire your gun, so you should get 5 levels of gunslinger so you can add Dex to damage. Obviously, if you go with Battle Host instead this is redundant advice.


Deadly Aim? I thought last sentence of that feat says it doesn't work for touch attacks. So it wouldn't work for Guns.


Karse wrote:
Deadly Aim? I thought last sentence of that feat says it doesn't work for touch attacks. So it wouldn't work for Guns.

Guns get a special exception.

Quote:

Early Firearms: When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target's touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim. At higher range increments, the attack resolves normally, including taking the normal cumulative –2 penalty for each full range increment. Unlike other projectile weapons, early firearms have a maximum range of five range increments.

Advanced Firearms: Advanced firearms resolve their attacks against touch AC when the target is within the first five range increments, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats such as Deadly Aim. At higher range increments, the attack resolves normally, including taking the normal cumulative –2 penalty for each full-range increment. Advanced firearms have a maximum range of 10 range increments.


Thanks. That's awesome. It was the reason I didn't choose it. But now I can!.


avr wrote:
The hellknight signifer PrC gets to reduce ASF as a class ability, and I'm sure they get access to a 3rd feat in the arcane armor training line tho' I can't find it just now.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/hellknight -signifer

Hell Knight Signifier/Enforcer would indeed reduce Arcane Spell failure by 5% at 5th level and another 5% at 8th as well as granting you Arcane Armor Mastery at 2nd if you have Arcane Armor Training (one of two possible prereq choices), changing those feats actions from swift to immediate at 5th. It'd maintain caster level and give you some other neat powers but it's going to lower your base attack bonus in comparison to Eldritch Knight. Also depending on table variance you might not be able to strip it from it's implied roleplay and that may or may not be an issue for you.


In my opinion, Arcane Armour Training is a trap option. By the time you get it, the extra AC is insufficient - Blur, Mirror Image, Cloak of Displacement, etc are better - and quickening a spell is often essential so your swift/immediate action is occupied.
A lesser rod to quicken Haste is usually my first action.


Can I get a link to the Guide?

Silver Crusade

Karse wrote:
Can I get a link to the Guide?

Specifically a link to the guide with the Battle Host dip/Hellknight levels. Or even just the build.


I might mock up a Spellslinger/Battle Host/Something else build later today just for fun (I've been wanting to play a gun-user for a while anyway). What opposition schools are you choosing?


Illusion, Transmutation, Divination, Enchantment.

It seems most Ray, Cones and lines and range touch spells are from Evocation then Necromacy and Conjuration. But if I can use armors and such I might as well swap Transmutation for Abjuration.


Karse wrote:

Illusion, Transmutation, Divination, Enchantment.

It seems most Ray, Cones and lines and range touch spells are from Evocation then Necromacy and Conjuration. But if I can use armors and such I might as well swap Transmutation for Abjuration.

That's a good pick, since conjuration will be essential for your early levels (Abundant Ammunition will be the GOAT spell for you for a while, as advanced firearms are VERY expensive to use). What point-buy are you using?


Karse wrote:

Illusion, Transmutation, Divination, Enchantment.

It seems most Ray, Cones and lines and range touch spells are from Evocation then Necromacy and Conjuration. But if I can use armors and such I might as well swap Transmutation for Abjuration.

It all depends on what you want to be able to cast.

In general, Illusion is essential for survival and Transmutation has too many useful spells in. Necromancy only has higher level spells in that are useful to a Spellslinger, so is a good candidate for Opposition Research. And Evocation's spells are mostly duplicated by Conjuration spells.

So I'd pick: Evocation, Necromancy, Enchantment, and Divination as opposition schools.

My guide is listed in the Guide to the Guides, which is a thread pinned to the top of this forum...

It was written before Occult Adventures was released, so no Battle Host in it, and I haven't updated it for about 18 months.

The key is to decide what your role in your party is: Primary Arcane (Arm/Anvil or Hammer?); secondary Arcane, primary ranged striker (Hammer), or something else.

For primary arcane spellcaster, a Spellslinger is a poor choice - and it isn't worth getting most of the combat feats because you will need feats to help your spellcasting.. Pure Wizard or Sorceror is far better. For primary ranged damage dealer, then you don't want more than 5 levels of spellslinger. For 'other', you should explain.


Captain Battletoad wrote:
Karse wrote:

Illusion, Transmutation, Divination, Enchantment.

It seems most Ray, Cones and lines and range touch spells are from Evocation then Necromacy and Conjuration. But if I can use armors and such I might as well swap Transmutation for Abjuration.

That's a good pick, since conjuration will be essential for your early levels (Abundant Ammunition will be the GOAT spell for you for a while, as advanced firearms are VERY expensive to use). What point-buy are you using?

If advanced firearms are allowed, the price of them drops by 90%. But not everyone notices that bit of the rules. And it's all very much up to the GM.

I never used Abundant Ammunition when I played a Spellslinger...


Gilarius wrote:
Captain Battletoad wrote:
Karse wrote:

Illusion, Transmutation, Divination, Enchantment.

It seems most Ray, Cones and lines and range touch spells are from Evocation then Necromacy and Conjuration. But if I can use armors and such I might as well swap Transmutation for Abjuration.

That's a good pick, since conjuration will be essential for your early levels (Abundant Ammunition will be the GOAT spell for you for a while, as advanced firearms are VERY expensive to use). What point-buy are you using?

If advanced firearms are allowed, the price of them drops by 90%. But not everyone notices that bit of the rules. And it's all very much up to the GM.

I never used Abundant Ammunition when I played a Spellslinger...

That's only with the Guns Everywhere option. If the campaign is using Commonplace Guns then advanced firearms and their ammo are available, but still cost full price. So ultimately the importance of AA is up to the prevalence of advanced guns in the campaign.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Gilarius wrote:
Karse wrote:

Illusion, Transmutation, Divination, Enchantment.

It seems most Ray, Cones and lines and range touch spells are from Evocation then Necromacy and Conjuration. But if I can use armors and such I might as well swap Transmutation for Abjuration.

It all depends on what you want to be able to cast.

In general, Illusion is essential for survival and Transmutation has too many useful spells in. Necromancy only has higher level spells in that are useful to a Spellslinger, so is a good candidate for Opposition Research. And Evocation's spells are mostly duplicated by Conjuration spells.

So I'd pick: Evocation, Necromancy, Enchantment, and Divination as opposition schools.

If your GM allows Spellslinger abilities to be used with spells from other classes then you could theoretically take Spellslinger 1, and then switch to some other full caster class to have access to spells of all schools.


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Ok, so after toying around with it for a bit, I came up with the following build to level 9:

15-point buy stats:
STR - 7
DEX - 16
CON - 11
INT - 16
WIS - 12
CHA - 7

After adjusting for the Android racials and other bonuses you'll be getting by level 9 (class features, level 4/8/12/16/20 stat bonuses, etc.) your stats will look like this:
STR - 7
DEX - 20
CON - 12
INT - 19
WIS - 12
CHA - 5

Class levels:
Battle Host (Transmutation school) 1/Spellslinger 5/Trench Fighter and Eldritch Guardian 3

Feats:
With our 3 fighter levels and 5 wizard levels, we should have a total of 8 feats (wizard gets a bonus at 4, and fighter gets bonuses at 1 and 2) to spend (keeping in mind that the two fighter bonus feats have to be combat feats) and for the level breakdowns, I'm assuming a progression of Battle Host 1/Spellslinger 5/Trench Fighter and Eldritch Guardian 3.

Level 1 - Point-Blank Shot
Level 3 - Precise Shot
Level 5 - Deadly Aim
Level 5 - Rapid Reload (taking this earlier might be good at the expense of taking Precise Shot later
Level 7 - Focused Spell (this would be a good level for taking your metamagic or crafting feat of choice, so it's up to you)
Level 7 - Arcane Strike
Level 8 - Dodge
Level 9 - Mobility (Riving Strike or Amateur Gunslinger would also be decent)
At level 11 (or 10 if you take another level in Fighter) you'll definitely want to pick up Vital Strike regardless of further class choices, since it's compatible with the Double-Barrel Shotgun's double shot ability.

So disregarding gear (except for your masterwork double-barrel shotgun which you get for free from Battle Host), spell choices, etc. and going only off of what I written here, you should have the following:
:1 Masterwork Double-Barrel Shotgun
:A familiar
:Strong saves across the board
:A ranged touch attack roll of 11 normally, or 7 when using double shot, or 12 and 8 respectively when within 30 feet
:+8 to damage from Arcane Strike, DEX, and Point-Blank Shot
:The ability to add a +1 enhancement bonus to your gun for 4 min/day
:...or the ability to add Bane to it if it's already +1
:Level 3 Wizard spells
:1 Transmutation Occultist cantrip
:1 Level 1 Transmutation Occultist spell
:Some other stuff I'm forgetting

So this obviously isn't a hyper-optimized build given that I don't know your goals, point-buy, play-style, etc. (particularly since I've only been half paying attention while making it) but it should at least give you some ideas for your build.


Captain Battletoad wrote:
Karse wrote:

Illusion, Transmutation, Divination, Enchantment.

It seems most Ray, Cones and lines and range touch spells are from Evocation then Necromacy and Conjuration. But if I can use armors and such I might as well swap Transmutation for Abjuration.

That's a good pick, since conjuration will be essential for your early levels (Abundant Ammunition will be the GOAT spell for you for a while, as advanced firearms are VERY expensive to use). What point-buy are you using?

25 Stats buy points


Karse wrote:
Captain Battletoad wrote:
Karse wrote:

Illusion, Transmutation, Divination, Enchantment.

It seems most Ray, Cones and lines and range touch spells are from Evocation then Necromacy and Conjuration. But if I can use armors and such I might as well swap Transmutation for Abjuration.

That's a good pick, since conjuration will be essential for your early levels (Abundant Ammunition will be the GOAT spell for you for a while, as advanced firearms are VERY expensive to use). What point-buy are you using?
25 Stats buy points

Ok, so in that case add +1 to WIS and +2 to INT and CON for the starting stats that I gave.


Captain Battletoad wrote:

Ok, so after toying around with it for a bit, I came up with the following build to level 9:

15-point buy stats:
STR - 7
DEX - 16
CON - 11
INT - 16
WIS - 12
CHA - 7

After adjusting for the Android racials and other bonuses you'll be getting by level 9 (class features, level 4/8/12/16/20 stat bonuses, etc.) your stats will look like this:
STR - 7
DEX - 20
CON - 12
INT - 19
WIS - 12
CHA - 5

Class levels:
Battle Host (Transmutation school) 1/Spellslinger 5/Trench Fighter and Eldritch Guardian 3

Feats:
With our 3 fighter levels and 5 wizard levels, we should have a total of 8 feats (wizard gets a bonus at 4, and fighter gets bonuses at 1 and 2) to spend (keeping in mind that the two fighter bonus feats have to be combat feats) and for the level breakdowns, I'm assuming a progression of Battle Host 1/Spellslinger 5/Trench Fighter and Eldritch Guardian 3.

Level 1 - Point-Blank Shot
Level 3 - Precise Shot
Level 5 - Deadly Aim
Level 5 - Rapid Reload (taking this earlier might be good at the expense of taking Precise Shot later
Level 7 - Focused Spell (this would be a good level for taking your metamagic or crafting feat of choice, so it's up to you)
Level 7 - Arcane Strike
Level 8 - Dodge
Level 9 - Mobility (Riving Strike or Amateur Gunslinger would also be decent)
At level 11 (or 10 if you take another level in Fighter) you'll definitely want to pick up Vital Strike regardless of further class choices, since it's compatible with the Double-Barrel Shotgun's double shot ability.

So disregarding gear (except for your masterwork double-barrel shotgun which you get for free from Battle Host), spell choices, etc. and going only off of what I written here, you should have the following:
:1 Masterwork Double-Barrel Shotgun
:A familiar
:Strong saves across the board
:A ranged touch attack roll of 11 normally, or 7 when using double shot, or 12 and 8 respectively when within 30 feet
:+8 to damage from Arcane Strike, DEX, and Point-Blank Shot
:The ability to add a +1 enhancement...

Vital Strike Works as long as you dont use Scatter.

Bane is not among teh abilities you can enhance the weapon with.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Gilarius wrote:

In my opinion, Arcane Armour Training is a trap option. By the time you get it, the extra AC is insufficient - Blur, Mirror Image, Cloak of Displacement, etc are better - and quickening a spell is often essential so your swift/immediate action is occupied.

A lesser rod to quicken Haste is usually my first action.

"By the time you get it?" You mean with your 3rd or 5th level feat (assuming Magical Knack with early multiclassing for taking it at 3rd level, which is pretty common for a character planning to go eldritch knight)? Just around the time you can afford a mithral chain shirt or mithral kikko.

When you finally gain 5th-level spell slots, then you retrain Arcane Armor Training for Quicken Spell...


Karse wrote:
Captain Battletoad wrote:
Build
Vital Strike Works as long as you dont use Scatter.

Since you'll be using scatter less than half of the time outside of the early game, that's perfectly acceptable.

Quote:
Bane is not among teh abilities you can enhance the weapon with.

You get Bane from the Legacy Weapon ability that you get from the Transmutation school as a Battle Host.


Dragonchess Player wrote:
Gilarius wrote:

In my opinion, Arcane Armour Training is a trap option. By the time you get it, the extra AC is insufficient - Blur, Mirror Image, Cloak of Displacement, etc are better - and quickening a spell is often essential so your swift/immediate action is occupied.

A lesser rod to quicken Haste is usually my first action.

"By the time you get it?" You mean with your 3rd or 5th level feat (assuming Magical Knack with early multiclassing for taking it at 3rd level, which is pretty common for a character planning to go eldritch knight)? Just around the time you can afford a mithral chain shirt or mithral kikko.

When you finally gain 5th-level spell slots, then you retrain Arcane Armor Training for Quicken Spell...

Chuckle. You might do it that way. I tend to prefer feats like Rapid Reload, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Deadly Aim. I certainly wouldn't be planning to take levels of a prestige class to improve AAT in a way that is unlikely to come online until 12th level or higher.

Plus there is the Mage Armour spell, if your friends are unable to keep the enemies away. Or if they use ranged attacks too.

And I did mention using a rod to quicken your Haste spell, so no need to wait for 5th level spells.

Now a melee Eldritch Knight might find arcane armour training more useful.


Theres just one thing that had been going over my head and it is if its worth getting the 3 Levels on fighter? for the Dex dmg that might be around +5-6 more dmg?

Because after all even if I reach +16 base attack bonus to have 4 attacks... I still will be able to shoot once right?

1. because if I cast a spell through the gun that would be a standard action.

2. cuz even with Rapid Reload (Shotgun) I can only reduce the reload to a move action, so I would be able to reload fast to do iterative attacks.

So should I just drop the 3 fighter levels for more Wizard? +3 Caster Level (so more dmg with spells and more slots) and will reach Level 9 spells and CL 18.


Captain Battletoad wrote:
Karse wrote:

Illusion, Transmutation, Divination, Enchantment.

It seems most Ray, Cones and lines and range touch spells are from Evocation then Necromacy and Conjuration. But if I can use armors and such I might as well swap Transmutation for Abjuration.

That's a good pick, since conjuration will be essential for your early levels (Abundant Ammunition will be the GOAT spell for you for a while, as advanced firearms are VERY expensive to use). What point-buy are you using?

I changed Schools. As you said most Necro spells are higher levels and single target and there arent many.

Transmutation seems too good to let it go. Evocation have noce spells specially AoE ones. Illusion would be my defensive spells.

So Oppose Schools should be Divination, Abjuration, Necromancy, Enchantment.


Captain Battletoad wrote:
Karse wrote:
Captain Battletoad wrote:
Build
Vital Strike Works as long as you dont use Scatter.

Since you'll be using scatter less than half of the time outside of the early game, that's perfectly acceptable.

Quote:
Bane is not among teh abilities you can enhance the weapon with.
You get Bane from the Legacy Weapon ability that you get from the Transmutation school as a Battle Host.

Excellent, Legacy Weapon does the trick plus I can add something else with Spellslinger Ability.


You do need to check with your GM to be sure that you can use Trench Fighter at all.

It's intended for the 'guns everywhere' rules where firearms are simple weapons (look at its weapon proficiency list). In which case you should be able to get pump action or automatic weapons.

Otherwise you need 5 levels of gunslinger.


Karse wrote:

Theres just one thing that had been going over my head and it is if its worth getting the 3 Levels on fighter? for the Dex dmg that might be around +5-6 more dmg?

Because after all even if I reach +16 base attack bonus to have 4 attacks... I still will be able to shoot once right?

1. because if I cast a spell through the gun that would be a standard action.

2. cuz even with Rapid Reload (Shotgun) I can only reduce the reload to a move action, so I would be able to reload fast to do iterative attacks.

So should I just drop the 3 fighter levels for more Wizard? +3 Caster Level (so more dmg with spells and more slots) and will reach Level 9 spells and CL 18.

Nevermind! I answered my own question. It's a move action to load any adv firearms and the Rapid Reload will make it a free action. Sweet.

Then I got a little doubt about Early Firearms.

One handed are Standard Action then it says a Full Round action to load each barrel of a two handed firearms. So means you could load them all with a full round or that you would need one full round for each barrel?


Battle host gun still blows up with 2 misfires. I think you are better off with quick clear deed.

Divination has named bullet.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Gilarius wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:
Gilarius wrote:

In my opinion, Arcane Armour Training is a trap option. By the time you get it, the extra AC is insufficient - Blur, Mirror Image, Cloak of Displacement, etc are better - and quickening a spell is often essential so your swift/immediate action is occupied.

A lesser rod to quicken Haste is usually my first action.

"By the time you get it?" You mean with your 3rd or 5th level feat (assuming Magical Knack with early multiclassing for taking it at 3rd level, which is pretty common for a character planning to go eldritch knight)? Just around the time you can afford a mithral chain shirt or mithral kikko.

When you finally gain 5th-level spell slots, then you retrain Arcane Armor Training for Quicken Spell...

Chuckle. You might do it that way. I tend to prefer feats like Rapid Reload, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Deadly Aim. I certainly wouldn't be planning to take levels of a prestige class to improve AAT in a way that is unlikely to come online until 12th level or higher.

Plus there is the Mage Armour spell, if your friends are unable to keep the enemies away. Or if they use ranged attacks too.

And I did mention using a rod to quicken your Haste spell, so no need to wait for 5th level spells.

Now a melee Eldritch Knight might find arcane armour training more useful.

Even a minor rod of quicken metamagic has a market price of 35,000 gp. Which a character would likely not be able to afford by WBL guidelines until 12th level; that's a level after a wizard (spellslinger) 5/gunslinger 1/eldritch knight X gains 5th-level spells...

A +2 mithral chain shirt or +1 mithral kikko has a market price of 5,100 gp or 5,030 gp, grants +6 armor bonus to AC (vs. +4 for mage armor), and doesn't eat up one (or more, for multiple castings) spell slots. Anyway, as far as Quickened 1st-level spells go, I'd much rather have a Quickened shield prepared because the 1 hour/level duration of mage armor means that I wouldn't want to wait until in combat to cast it.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
nicholas storm wrote:
Battle host gun still blows up with 2 misfires. I think you are better off with quick clear deed.

Spellslingers are Wizards... they can use the Mending cantrip instead of Quick Clear. Both are a Standard action, but Quick Clear can be sped up to a Move action by spending 1 panache or Mending can be quickened. The other benefit of Mending is that it can repair a misfire, backlash, or any other source of the broken condition. Quick Clear only helps with misfires.

Karse wrote:

Then I got a little doubt about Early Firearms.

One handed are Standard Action then it says a Full Round action to load each barrel of a two handed firearms. So means you could load them all with a full round or that you would need one full round for each barrel?

A double barrelled two handed early firearm would require a full round action for each barrell... so two full rounds to completely reload. Note that a one-handed early firearm is similarly a standard action for each barrell... so TWO standard actions to completely reload.


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Mending is a cantrip so Spellslingers don't get it at all.
Plus it has a casting time of 10 mins so cannot be quickened.

The only way to be able to continuously reload 2 handed early firearms as a free action is to be a 3rd level musket master and have rapid reload and use alchemical cartridges.

You really need to find out if your game will feature advanced firearms or not.


CBDunkerson wrote:
nicholas storm wrote:
Battle host gun still blows up with 2 misfires. I think you are better off with quick clear deed.

Spellslingers are Wizards... they can use the Mending cantrip instead of Quick Clear. Both are a Standard action, but Quick Clear can be sped up to a Move action by spending 1 panache or Mending can be quickened. The other benefit of Mending is that it can repair a misfire, backlash, or any other source of the broken condition. Quick Clear only helps with misfires.

Karse wrote:

Then I got a little doubt about Early Firearms.

One handed are Standard Action then it says a Full Round action to load each barrel of a two handed firearms. So means you could load them all with a full round or that you would need one full round for each barrel?

A double barrelled two handed early firearm would require a full round action for each barrell... so two full rounds to completely reload. Note that a one-handed early firearm is similarly a standard action for each barrell... so TWO standard actions to completely reload.

Thanks for info on reload.

Yeah Spellslinger dont have cantrips except for Detect and Read Magic as Lv 1 spells but with the single level of Battle Host you can take Mending with Transmutation implement.


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As stated above, mending has a 10minute casting time. It's not really usable for what you want.


Thanks everyone for the nice ideas. So I can finish my build. :)

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