Bypassing restrictions that should not exist to begin with


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Silver Crusade

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Nicos wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:

Clearly it's more than martial training involved.

My character has faith in Shelyn an i take Bladed Brush. It works.

That same character later changes his faith to Desna. Bladed Brush stops being usable...

How i wonder why?

The reason is: bad design.

Getting mystical benefits for worshiping a deity in a fantasy setting is not a bad design.


Rysky wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:

Clearly it's more than martial training involved.

My character has faith in Shelyn an i take Bladed Brush. It works.

That same character later changes his faith to Desna. Bladed Brush stops being usable...

How i wonder why?

The reason is: bad design.
Getting mystical benefits for worshiping a deity in a fantasy setting is not a bad design.

Indeed. I'm only complaining in the benefits that are not mystical at all.

Silver Crusade

Nicos wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:

Clearly it's more than martial training involved.

My character has faith in Shelyn an i take Bladed Brush. It works.

That same character later changes his faith to Desna. Bladed Brush stops being usable...

How i wonder why?

The reason is: bad design.
Getting mystical benefits for worshiping a deity in a fantasy setting is not a bad design.
Indeed. I'm only complaining in the benefits that are not mystical at all.

But they are. They're martial too, but there's no denying they're mystical as well since your ability to possess them in the first place hinges on devout faith.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Nicos wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:

Clearly it's more than martial training involved.

My character has faith in Shelyn an i take Bladed Brush. It works.

That same character later changes his faith to Desna. Bladed Brush stops being usable...

How i wonder why?

The reason is: bad design.
Getting mystical benefits for worshiping a deity in a fantasy setting is not a bad design.
Indeed. I'm only complaining in the benefits that are not mystical at all.

Maybe you should read the definition of mystical then.

Bladed Brush is literally dependent on a mystical nature.

If you stop worshiping Shelyn it stops functioning...

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Are you going to go through all the other deity-specific feats? Make a list?

Butterfly's Sting is for worshipers of Desna. But, other characters can get critical hits, too!

Religious feats exist. They are neat, and usually offer benefits that wouldn't otherwise exist in the game.


I think the basic point of disagreement in this thread is actually whether the "must worship Shelyn" represents a the requirement to access the training for the technique (a more mundane interpretation) or is actually necessary for the technique to function (a more mystical interpretation.)

At issue is that I do not believe there are any rules for "when do you no longer count as worshiping a deity".


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Why must I worship Desna to cheese out X4 crits with my pickaxe? This is BAD GAME DESIGN!!!


Brain in a Jar wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:

Clearly it's more than martial training involved.

My character has faith in Shelyn an i take Bladed Brush. It works.

That same character later changes his faith to Desna. Bladed Brush stops being usable...

How i wonder why?

The reason is: bad design.
Getting mystical benefits for worshiping a deity in a fantasy setting is not a bad design.
Indeed. I'm only complaining in the benefits that are not mystical at all.

Maybe you should read the definition of mystical then.

Bladed Brush is literally dependent on a mystical nature.

If you stop worshiping Shelyn it stops functioning...

circular logic.

Silver Crusade

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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think the basic point of disagreement in this thread is actually whether the "must worship Shelyn" represents a the requirement to access the training for the technique (a more mundane interpretation) or is actually necessary for the technique to function (a more mystical interpretation.)

At issue is that I do not believe there are any rules for "when do you no longer count as worshiping a deity".

Well if your strength drops below 13 you lose access to Power Attack, so if you stop worshiping Desna you too would lose access to the feat.

As for when you no longer count as a worshiper? That would be up to you and your GM but would likely come as a result of switching to another Deity, or if your actions become anathema to the deity in question that they abandon you.


Rysky wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:

Clearly it's more than martial training involved.

My character has faith in Shelyn an i take Bladed Brush. It works.

That same character later changes his faith to Desna. Bladed Brush stops being usable...

How i wonder why?

The reason is: bad design.
Getting mystical benefits for worshiping a deity in a fantasy setting is not a bad design.
Indeed. I'm only complaining in the benefits that are not mystical at all.
But they are. They're martial too, but there's no denying they're mystical as well since your ability to possess them in the first place hinges on devout faith.

The fact that is tied to a worshiping of shelyn is the whole point, you are justifying the restriction by the restriction itself. If you remove it the feat make sense as a martial ability.

Silver Crusade

Nicos wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:

Clearly it's more than martial training involved.

My character has faith in Shelyn an i take Bladed Brush. It works.

That same character later changes his faith to Desna. Bladed Brush stops being usable...

How i wonder why?

The reason is: bad design.
Getting mystical benefits for worshiping a deity in a fantasy setting is not a bad design.
Indeed. I'm only complaining in the benefits that are not mystical at all.
But they are. They're martial too, but there's no denying they're mystical as well since your ability to possess them in the first place hinges on devout faith.
The fact that is tied to a worshiping of shelyn is the whole point. If you remove it the feat make sense as a martial ability.

And? Right now it makes perfect sense as a mystical ability.


Rysky wrote:
As for when you no longer count as a worshiper? That would be up to you and your GM but would likely come as a result of switching to another Deity, or if your actions become anathema to the deity in question that they abandon you.

What I don't like though, to circle back to that page, is that if we assume that now we're asking the GM to police "are you going against the goals/ideals of your religion" like they have to police paladins "are you going against your code."

Can only derive mechanical benefit from one deity's stuff at once makes a lot of sense, but I don't like the idea of having to keep track of whether players are pious enough.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Rysky wrote:
As for when you no longer count as a worshiper? That would be up to you and your GM but would likely come as a result of switching to another Deity, or if your actions become anathema to the deity in question that they abandon you.

What I don't like though, to circle back to that page, is that if we assume that now we're asking the GM to police "are you going against the goals/ideals of your religion" like they have to police paladins "are you going against your code."

Can only derive mechanical benefit from one deity's stuff at once makes a lot of sense, but I don't like the idea of having to keep track of whether players are pious enough.

GM's aren't already watching that? I certainly do. The idea that you can just jot down a name on your sheet and reap benefits is not something I'd allow.


Rysky wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think the basic point of disagreement in this thread is actually whether the "must worship Shelyn" represents a the requirement to access the training for the technique (a more mundane interpretation) or is actually necessary for the technique to function (a more mystical interpretation.)

At issue is that I do not believe there are any rules for "when do you no longer count as worshiping a deity".

Well if your strength drops below 13 you lose access to Power Attack, so if you stop worshiping Desna you too would lose access to the feat.

As for when you no longer count as a worshiper? That would be up to you and your GM but would likely come as a result of switching to another Deity, or if your actions become anathema to the deity in question that they abandon you.

I would run it that, to take the feat, you would have to be as devouted to a god in question that you could step into Cleric and be able to cast spells, but not mostly due to different life circumstances or choices.

However, I'd also run it that if later down the road you change deities, you wouldn't lose the feat because you learnt it via divine inspiration or learnt it while among that god's clergy.

I think that's a nice balance of 'fluff to make the feat make sense' and 'not horrendously punishing players in a gameplay sense for a roleplay choice and character development'.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think the basic point of disagreement in this thread is actually whether the "must worship Shelyn" represents a the requirement to access the training for the technique (a more mundane interpretation) or is actually necessary for the technique to function (a more mystical interpretation.)

At issue is that I do not believe there are any rules for "when do you no longer count as worshiping a deity".

As I said earlier one of the two basic points of disagreement and probably the less important.

The first is whether such restrictions are a good thing regardless of how they're justified.

The simplistic mechanics based answer to your question is that it should be "necessary of the technique to function", otherwise the requirement doesn't follow the same rules as other feat requirements.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think the basic point of disagreement in this thread is actually whether the "must worship Shelyn" represents a the requirement to access the training for the technique (a more mundane interpretation) or is actually necessary for the technique to function (a more mystical interpretation.)

At issue is that I do not believe there are any rules for "when do you no longer count as worshiping a deity".

Well based on how Feat Prerequisites functions worshiping Shelyn, in the case of Bladed Brush, is a requirement. Since it stops functioning otherwise.

So it's quite literally by the rules not just a training technique but necessary for it to even function.

Feat Prerequisites:

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.

A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.

As for worship rules that would all be Golarion specific and not tied into the base rules.

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
kyrt-ryder wrote:

Eyup, I can see I'm surrounded by Paizo worshipers who can't even see when their beloved pantheon has done something wrong.

Going back to producing my own game now, take it easy people.

EDIT: I'd like to edit this post into something less offensive, but nothing's really coming to mind. I value my time spent here and my relationships with some of the posters, but this atmosphere really doesn't bode well for my sanity.

Verisimilitude is in the eye of the beholder. Nowhere more so than when it comes to magic systems or fantasy-world religions.

Don't know if you've ever sat around with a bunch of fantasy authors having a serious discussion about "realism" in these areas, but you quickly come to the conclusion that either
a) it's all completely subjective, especially the things you believe in your gut are most obvious

Or b) everyone else is crazy.

(Hint: the answer is actually "all of the above")

Good luck with your game! You've hit on the only solution where everything can end up making sense to you. (If only for a year or two. :) )


knightnday wrote:
GM's aren't already watching that? I certainly do. The idea that you can just jot down a name on your sheet and reap benefits is not something I'd allow.

I never have, and I'm not really that I'm enthused about having to track now. I'd prefer not to have to keep track of "are you devout enough" for anybody but the Paladin (and for the Paladin it's more "are you being an ass" than anything else), so I'm leaning towards "not allowing any of these religion feats, full stop" but that's a shame since some are cool options.

Silver Crusade

knightnday wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Rysky wrote:
As for when you no longer count as a worshiper? That would be up to you and your GM but would likely come as a result of switching to another Deity, or if your actions become anathema to the deity in question that they abandon you.

What I don't like though, to circle back to that page, is that if we assume that now we're asking the GM to police "are you going against the goals/ideals of your religion" like they have to police paladins "are you going against your code."

Can only derive mechanical benefit from one deity's stuff at once makes a lot of sense, but I don't like the idea of having to keep track of whether players are pious enough.

GM's aren't already watching that? I certainly do. The idea that you can just jot down a name on your sheet and reap benefits is not something I'd allow.

^ THIS.


Nicos wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:

Clearly it's more than martial training involved.

My character has faith in Shelyn an i take Bladed Brush. It works.

That same character later changes his faith to Desna. Bladed Brush stops being usable...

How i wonder why?

The reason is: bad design.
Getting mystical benefits for worshiping a deity in a fantasy setting is not a bad design.
Indeed. I'm only complaining in the benefits that are not mystical at all.

Maybe you should read the definition of mystical then.

Bladed Brush is literally dependent on a mystical nature.

If you stop worshiping Shelyn it stops functioning...

circular logic.

No.

That's just how feats work that's in the Core Rules.

Power Attack requires STR 13; if i don't have that i can't use it.

Bladed Brush requires Shelyn to be worshiped; if i don't have that i can't use it.

One is based in a martial sense the other is entirely mystical;

"Of, relating to, or stemming from mysticism or immediate understanding of spiritual matters, especially when experienced as direct communion with God."

So don't just dismiss me with "circular logic". That's how the game functions.

Silver Crusade

PossibleCabbage wrote:
knightnday wrote:
GM's aren't already watching that? I certainly do. The idea that you can just jot down a name on your sheet and reap benefits is not something I'd allow.
I never have, and I'm not really that I'm enthused about having to track now. I'd prefer not to have to keep track of "are you devout enough" for anybody but the Paladin (and for the Paladin it's more "are you being an ass" than anything else), so I'm leaning towards "not allowing any of these religion feats, full stop" but that's a shame since some are cool options.

Well then that's just fundamental difference between us then I guess. I watch any character that gets a divinely granted ability, whether feat or class based, because those do come with restrictions that need enforcing.

EDIT: Oracles being the exception obviously, there whole thing is "Do whatever the f#$& I want."


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Rysky wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:

Clearly it's more than martial training involved.

My character has faith in Shelyn an i take Bladed Brush. It works.

That same character later changes his faith to Desna. Bladed Brush stops being usable...

How i wonder why?

The reason is: bad design.
Getting mystical benefits for worshiping a deity in a fantasy setting is not a bad design.

Just because everybody is not pleased with it it doesn't mean it's bad design.

Anything they do will have its pros and its cons.
Adding flavor to the rules is definitely not bad design as it brings a sense of story behind the mechanics and I think it's cool.
If you just want to take the rules and drop all the flavor you're free to do it, so what's the matter?
I've redone a lot of things in my WoD setting because I've always thought the setting was great but the metaplot sucked and there was too much stereotypes that had to be removed or reworked.
I guess that the real issue here is about players whose GMs would ask them to fit the flavor of the feat. But that's something to be dealt between player and GM and GMs should always have the last word on what is fitting and what is not.
Even filling the requisites, p. ex. I wouldn't allow a cleric of a deity who hates and hunts undead to pick a feat to allow him to summon more undead. It just wouldn't make any sense.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
knightnday wrote:
GM's aren't already watching that? I certainly do. The idea that you can just jot down a name on your sheet and reap benefits is not something I'd allow.
I never have, and I'm not really that I'm enthused about having to track now. I'd prefer not to have to keep track of "are you devout enough" for anybody but the Paladin (and for the Paladin it's more "are you being an ass" than anything else), so I'm leaning towards "not allowing any of these religion feats, full stop" but that's a shame since some are cool options.

Eh, it's not that much to track, really. More a matter of keeping an ear on the player and sometimes gently reminding them to look back over their deities tenets, alignment, duties and so on. The idea I stress to the players -- for clerics, paladins, prestige classes and so on -- is that there is more to it than a box of goodies. You may have responsibilities, duties, and commitments in exchange for what you get.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
knightnday wrote:
GM's aren't already watching that? I certainly do. The idea that you can just jot down a name on your sheet and reap benefits is not something I'd allow.
I never have, and I'm not really that I'm enthused about having to track now. I'd prefer not to have to keep track of "are you devout enough" for anybody but the Paladin (and for the Paladin it's more "are you being an ass" than anything else), so I'm leaning towards "not allowing any of these religion feats, full stop" but that's a shame since some are cool options.

Then don't. You don't have to. Anymore than you have to require worship for the feat in the first place. Or allow them at all.

You don't do anything for other religious types, if they do worship a god? Just the alignment/code thing for paladins?
A cleric (or druid or inquisitor or ...) who puts down a deity, but then ignores it or acts contrary to the faith?

Community & Digital Content Director

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Temp locking to sift through this.

EDIT: Upon review, we're going to go ahead and leave this closed for now. The amount of negativity and overall grar popping up over the course of this thread so far doesn't give much confidence that it will not continue, and since we're heading into a long weekend, we'd rather not let it get too hairy.

Our forums are intended for gamers to gather and share their experience, help each other, and generally have fun. There's been a lot of talking past each other, personal insults, flouncing, and accusations of gaming "wrong" here, which really doesn't contribute to the goals we have for this space. I'd suggest taking a moment to read over our Community Guidelines (maybe taking a break away from the keyboard) and revisiting topics like this with those in mind.

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