Dueling + Leveraging whip

[miscdebris]

What is my bonus for the following maneuvers. I'm not sure what applies by the specific overrides general. Lets use a +1 Dueling (PSFG), Leveraging Whip, and Greater Whip Mastery (with prereqs).

Dueling (PSFG) interacting with Leveraging is the real question here.

Does Leveraging make the weapon apply in maneuvers it normally does not (Bull Rush)?
Does Leveraging, Whip + Steal, and Greater Whip Mastery, override the Dueling (PSFG) excluded maneuvers (Bull Rush, Drag, Grapple, Steal)?

I know that Specific overrides general. but which is the specific in this case?

[SlimGauge]

The way I read leveraging, IF the weapon's bonus can (already) be applied to bullrush (either because of some other special ability of the weapon or because of some ability you have), THEN the bonus is doubled because of leveraging. If the weapon's bonus cannot be applied, then doubling the bonus has no real effect.

I don't see how Whip Mastery/Greater Whip Mastery figures in.

Of course, I could be wrong.

[miscdebris]

SlimGauge wrote:

The way I read leveraging, IF the weapon's bonus can (already) be applied to bullrush (either because of some other special ability of the weapon or because of some ability you have), THEN the bonus is doubled because of leveraging. If the weapon's bonus cannot be applied, then doubling the bonus has no real effect.

I don't think that's right. As I read it, if I am wielding the weapon, I get the bonus. What I don't know is if I am using the weapon to do the maneuver.

SlimGauge wrote:

I don't see how Whip Mastery/Greater Whip Mastery figures in.

Greater Whip Mastery lets me grapple with a whip. Dueling says both if doing a maneuver with the weapon, I get the bonus (which Greater Whip Mastery lets me grapple with the whip) and that it doesn't work with grapple. So which is it? Which is the more specific, Greater Whip Mastery letting me grapple with the whip, and thus granting the bonus, or Dueling (PSFG) that says it won't work?

[SlimGauge]

I understand the second part of the question now. Originally, I thought we were still talking about Bullrushing.

Greater Whip Master does indeed allow you to grapple with the whip.

There is an issue with Dueling. The various sources have different wording.

The one you link to in the Archives of Nethys is credited to the Pathfinder Society Field Guide.

The one found in the Advanced Player's Guide PRD, Dueling does not have the restrictive language.

The one found on D20PFSRD, Dueling is credited to Ultimate Equipment and does not have that wording either.

"My Downloads" page tells me that the PSFG was last updated July 2011 while the Advanced Player's Guide was last updated May 2012 and Ultimate Equipment in May 2016. Thus the UE version is the most up to date.

The wording in the PSFG version of Dueling may simply be reiterating what maneuvers are considered to be using the weapon and wich are not, OR it could be prescribing a prohibition on the use of Dueling for specific maneuvers. If it is the first case, then Great Whip Mastery indeed allows Dueling to function. If it is the second case, the prohibition in the Dueling weapon property itself is more specific to that property and would prevent dueling from functioning with grapple.

I think the first case is more likely.
If I'm right, then leveraging does indeed function when you use your whip with greater whip mastery to grapple.

Going back to the first question, this blog entry makes it clear that weapons are not normally used in a bullrush with a stated exception of the polearm master fighter archetype. Leveraging does not state that the weapon can now used in bullrush attempts, but if a polearm master fighter had such a weapon, then its enhancement bonus would be doubled for him.

It is possible that Leveraging is just sloppily written and is intended to allow the weapon to be used in bullrushes, but I suspect it's more likely that bullrush was inadvertently added to the list of maneuvers stated (drag, reposition, and trip) that all can already be done with a weapon.

[miscdebris]

That seems like a good answer. Thanks. :)

I would, of course, like additional thoughts on the subject.

[River of Sticks]

In case anyone finds this thread like I did with the same question on Leveraging and Bull Rush, the Impact weapon property adds the weapons enhancement bonus to all bull rush checks. If the weapon was also Leveraging, I believe it would follow that the bonus increases to twice the enhancement of the weapon.